>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington, D.C.
>> Well, we want to bring out
two more of our cartoonists,
so we have with us two cartoonists,
two political cartoonists,
both with the Washington
Post Writer's Group.
Last year we had a
political cartooning panel
and not a lot has gone on in the
last year in terms of politics.
But we decided we would
do this again anyway.
And what we've done is we have
a cartoonist from the left
and cartoonist from the right.
From the left we have Ann Telnaes,
who's on the Washington
Post.com site.
Earlier this year, she
won the Reuben Award.
She is the first woman to woman
to win both the Reuben Award
and the Pulitzer Prize
for Editorial Cartooning.
She is -- yes.
And she has had a book out
here, "Humor's Edge," 2004
and also had a show here
at the Jefferson Building.
And she works in a
beautiful animation style.
We also have Mike Lester from
the right, up here from Florida,
escaping any potential
hurricanes, and he has the book
"Cool Daddy Rat," and
they can come on out.
Thank you guys.
[ Applause ]
Welcome, guys.
You know, one thing is, I'm
curious, all of you now are working
from real life and you're finding
inspiration from real life.
Does real life consistently inspire
you or sometimes does real life get
so difficult your imagination
just has to go into overdrive?
Can you talk about that?
Getting inspiration from --
>> Yes, you already said it.
It's an embarrassment
of riches right now.
>> Yeah.
>> No matter what side
you may find yourself.
What Ann and I do is really
just counterpunch to news cycles
and stories and -- at
least that's what I do,
and it's not the worst
job in the world.
>> Yeah, yeah.
And what about you, Ann?
Is it, you know?
>> Well, I've been
doing political cartoons
since the Clinton Administration,
and I mean usually, you know,
we just got off summer, right, and
usually for editorial cartoonists,
summer is such a slow time
that you're looking for things
to comment on, like reading lists
on the beach and things like that.
And now we have to actually choose.
I mean I find myself going, what
do I want to comment on first?
Or what's more important?
So it's definitely
-- it's different.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, you're working
from real life in a different way,
but you're dealing with
some serious themes.
Is that -- what is it
like to work with that,
because it's so different
from fiction.
You have to respect
it in a different way.
>> You're talking about the
non-fiction book I'm working on?
>> Yeah, yeah, with "Dragon Hoops."
>> Yeah, I don't know how you all
feel about this, but it seems to me
that as soon as you cartoon,
you're adding a perspective,
you're adding a layer of fiction.
And I guess that's true for
documentary films as well,
but in cartoons, it's
just much more pronounced.
Everything is filtered through your
own pen, right, your own style.
>> And even real people have
to become a character, right?
>> Yeah.
>> They have to become yours.
>> Yeah.
>> Can you talk about [inaudible].
>> And in the beginning, like this
is the first non-fiction thing
that I've done.
And in the beginning I
felt like I was lying.
>> Yeah.
>> I felt like I was
constantly lying.
Every time I drew a
character, because it came
out in my style, I was lying.
>> Yeah.
>> And at a certain point, I
just had to make peace with that.
>> So you're creating
fake news cartoons?
>> Yeah, I guess so.
I guess so.
>> But what about you, Mike?
Does it take time for a
real person to become yours?
Like you've adopted
that real person?
>> Well, you know, a lot of young
cartoonists, I've talked to them
for years and years, and they all
want to know how to get their style.
And I think that's the
wrong question to ask,
because I don't think you have
any choice in what your style is
if you're working honestly.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's an old quote.
"Your style is the result
of your most honest labors."
I don't know who said
it, but it wasn't me.
I'm just re-quoting it.
And I don't think if you're -- I
mean, if you're really trying to put
out something that's
honest from yourself.
You don't have a --
I don't have a choice
in how I draw, really, anymore.
And it is an editorial statement,
whether I put any words
to it or not.
I think that's what you're saying.
I mean, at this stage of the
game, I'm kind of stuck with that.
>> Yeah, it's like your thumbprint.
It's what you are.
Well, we need to say
goodbye to Gene Luen Yang.
We want to thank him.
And I think we deserve
-- applause loud enough
that his parents can hear.
[ Applause ]
>> You want me to slide over?
>> Yeah, please.
Can you stay, miked?
There you go.
Well, what I want to make
sure, because you guys brought
so many great cartoons from both
sides, I want to get to that,
but to understand, like Mike also
creates a strip, "Mike du Jour,"
where you get to have fun
and step away from it.
And Ann trained at Cal Arts,
studied character animation
and does these beautiful animations
and works in watercolor as well.
And so you both have such
distinct voices and passions.
Could you each talk about
sort of what's it like?
Did it take a while to find
your voice and find your style?
Did it come quickly?
Can you talk about that?
>> Yeah, it's interesting, because I
actually started out as an animator.
I had no interest in editorial
cartooning when I was a young woman.
So my style was based on
what I learned for animation.
But when I started doing
editorial cartooning,
I was looking at other people's
work, and I was mimicking them.
And at the time it was
cross-hatching, right?
The pen and cross -- and I realized
that editorial cartooning
you have to do really fast.
I mean you have to get one out a
day, and I couldn't do them fast.
So I thought, what can I do fast?
Well, I had learned how to use a
brush and ink for my licensing work.
And so I just started
doing it that way.
So I didn't consciously think
about a style, but it sort of,
it evolved because I
had to do them fast.
So that's where that came from.
And then I always encourage
young people, you know,
don't get hung up on doing a style.
The style will come.
You just want to really learn
what it is you want to say.
Don't worry what it looks like.
You can look at other
people's work, but put it aside
and then just do your own stuff.
Because it will develop.
>> Yeah, well, as I understand
it, you have something in common
with a lot of young people now,
in that it was quite a while before
you actually read a newspaper.
>> Yeah. Isn't that embarrassing?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But events like the Anita
Hill hearings, Tiananmen Square,
they politically engaged you.
Could you just talk a
little bit about that?
>> Yeah. You're absolutely right.
I did not read a newspaper -- I was
living in Los Angeles at the time.
I was working for the
Walt Disney Company.
I was an imagineer, a show designer.
And I had no interest in politics.
I mean, I knew about
editorial cartoons
because I liked the artwork.
So I looked at them.
But until I was working late one
night and I watched, it was 1989,
and the Tiananmen Square
massacre unfolded on television.
>> Watching that tank come out,
and the students, and all that.
>> I watched those students that
were close to my own age get mowed
down by their own government,
then I felt the need,
that I needed to say
something through my art.
So that's when I started trying
to become an editorial cartoonist.
>> You say trying.
You're humble.
It seemed to come quickly.
>> Well, it took a
few years, but yeah.
>> Yeah, yeah.
And what about you, Mike?
I mean, did you grow up political?
Were your parents political?
>> Not at all.
>> Yeah, when did it come?
>> I grew up on the floor
with a comics page on Sundays,
and most every day, and
then the box scores.
So I was the farthest thing
from interested in politics.
>> And this was in Georgia, right?
>> And I really wish I
weren't so interested now.
>> Because why?
>> It would make life a
lot simpler for all of us.
But I started out in
another field, just like Ann.
I was -- I could just always draw.
I didn't know if I could
write, but I knew I could draw
and I didn't really
-- I had that down.
But it doesn't matter if you
can draw in the editorial,
in the comic strip business, if
you don't have anything to say.
And that took some time.
I didn't -- I wasn't very good
at it right out of the box.
Fortunately I was in
a small town and --
but I worked at it and I think
I got a little bit better.
I've found my own voice, both in
the comic strip and the editorial.
And I was really tired -- at the
time I was doing advertising,
and I was tired of drawing
storyboards for drug companies
and -- it's nice work, but
there's not a whole lot
to take home with you.
>> Yeah, yeah.
Well, this will get the
crowd fired up, I know.
Let's go to the cartoons, because
-- so we'll start with Ann.
And you do a lot of things about
freedom of the press and rights.
And I think you said to me, we
were speaking last year ahead
of the election, saying you
wanted to get as many cartoons
out while you still had a certain
protected freedom of the press,
in case it might be
endangered very soon.
>> Well.
>> But could you talk about some
of your passion about cartooning,
about rights and freedoms?
>> Right, well, I've always been
interested in it, but especially
since the Danish cartoon
controversy in 2005.
>> Yes.
>> And then, of course, the Charlie
Hebdo murders a few years ago.
You know, I go overseas
for a lot of conferences,
and I talk to my colleagues there,
and you know, they actually do have
to deal with people wanting
to throw them in jail
for their cartoons,
as well as kill them.
>> Absolutely.
>> And we've had many
incidents about that,
but I always thought we had the
first amendment, we're fine.
>> Yeah.
>> We still have the first
amendment, but I am very worried
about this administration,
because we have a president
that doesn't seem to understand
what the first amendment is.
And he seems to think that the free
press is his own personal PR firm.
So I think we're in danger.
>> He's also called them the enemy.
>> He's called them the enemy.
This is dangerous talk,
and I really am concerned
for editorial cartoonists, because
we really are on the front line.
And the reason that we are,
is even though we are funny,
and we do cartoons, we do images.
And images can reach anyone.
Words are different.
People actually have to know
how to read, know the language.
But editorial cartoons, especially
with the internet, can reach wide,
and that's why the Charlie Hebdo,
the Danish cartoon
controversy, happened.
So I am worried about it now.
It's something to be
concerned about.
And I think especially young
people should understand
that this isn't something
that you should ignore.
This is your future, if you can
speak up the way you want to speak.
So I do a lot more
work about it now.
>> Yeah. And so here you have
Trump trying to muzzle, you know --
>> Justice, yes.
>> Justice.
Yes.
>> Yes, he's hard at it.
>> And part of it with that is the
-- on social media, your images,
they can go out and sort of --
people can attach their own words
and try to reframe
even what you've drawn.
And so we're in an era now
where everything, you know,
what you take is almost repurposed.
And I recently have interviewed
a few political cartoonists,
including like Gary Varvel.
President Trump retweeted --
someone memed what he did,
changed the meaning of the cartoon.
>> Right.
>> Different.
It got reinterpreted and I even
interviewed Gary and he's like,
the person who did it
and that Trump retweeted,
it was a different meaning
entirely from what he meant.
But people don't know that.
>> And social media has
definitely contributed to that.
I mean, it's good for
us, in one sense.
I reach a lot more people through my
Twitter account, but the problem is,
is social media can
also, like you said,
people will interpret it the
way they want to interpret it,
and then they will retweet
it, and they'll say something
about the cartoon, which was not
the original intent of the cartoon.
I've seen journalists even do this,
people that ought to know better,
talking about a cartoon
and presenting this cartoon
as something that it is not.
So it's something that we have to --
we're still kind of
dealing with, actually.
>> Yes. Yeah, we're
still very much changing.
I do -- before I go on, I
do want to make a point.
I, being online, I get -- we
all get hate mail and vitriol,
and there's a coarseness that comes
with the anonymity of social media.
But I will say there's so few
women in political cartooning,
but even columnists at The Post
who are female, you, to me,
it turns my stomach what you
get called as a result of that.
How do you -- you're tough,
but how do you deal with that?
>> Well, like you said,
editorial cartoonists, I mean,
we've dealt with hate mail forever.
I mean we were told always, we're
stupid, our cartoons are stupid.
First it's with mail,
then it goes to email,
and then it's social media.
The thing about social
media now for women,
and it's not just editorial
cartoonists, it's gamers,
it's female journalists,
those two sports journalists,
the misogyny is amazing.
I have never in my 25 years
of editorial cartooning
received the kind
of misogynistic crap I've gotten
in the past couple of years.
I used to think you
just sort of ignore it.
I think the people that kind of take
it on, head-on, is the way to do it.
Now I will speak up.
And I like it when my
supporters speak up, as well.
Because it's just not acceptable.
It's like being --
>> Yes.
[ Applause ]
Yeah. Absolutely.
So getting to free
speech and rights.
Mike, you have -- we know
that there's certain comedians
who talk a lot now about how
they won't go to campuses
where they get protested, because
they feel as though campuses,
what used to be bastions of free
speech are, it's now the opposite.
They feel like they're bastions
of political correctness.
Can you talk about your
view in this cartoon?
>> Yeah, go back to the media.
Let me look at that backwards.
I'm a -- for many years now, I have
worked in media and newspapers,
and they're my biggest
target, by and large.
>> yeah, like the Daily Show.
The Daily Show is created,
not as a political show.
I've interviewed the co-creator
of the show and I've talked
to Jon Stewart and Colbert's
producer, and it was started
because it felt like news
wasn't doing its job.
>> Right.
>> And it became a
critique of media.
>> I love my job.
I love the career and the
discipline of doing it.
But I also think that I'm not
going to be presumptuous enough
to think I have a responsibility,
but I take a lot
of shots at my own field.
And it's no different than --
well, you were talking about college
campuses, and college campuses have,
like media, I think have
lost their way a little bit.
It is the place in America that
you shouldn't be afraid to say,
hey, the emperor's naked.
Now you can't say that right
now, even though he is.
So that's an old and
a small metaphor
that I assume everybody gets, but
that's how I see it right now.
And I'll go a little further and
say I'm not a fan of politicians.
I'm not a fan of this
one, this President,
I'm not a fan of the last one.
But that's my job,
at least I think so.
But I think the media was a little
bit -- I think the last eight years,
we had the exact opposite.
I think we're kind of overreacting
now, and I think we under-reacted
for the previous eight years.
That's just my opinion.
You may have yours.
I know --
>> Do you speak at colleges?
>> I haven't lately.
>> By choice?
>> No, I just -- I
just haven't lately.
I mean I'm happy to.
I'll speak anywhere.
>> Okay, okay.
Well, you're not holding back on
this one in terms of free speech
and using a Game of
Thrones metaphor.
Could you talk about this one?
Well, that's not a metaphor.
There really is a class
at Berkeley called Game
of Thrones as a Second Language.
>> Yeah.
>> Sometimes jokes write themselves.
>> Yeah.
>> And if they're going to
do that, I'm just going to --
I'm notorious for, if
we're going to go that far,
I can usually go further.
>> Okay, yeah.
>> So.
>> Yeah, okay.
So let's talk about
the emperor, here.
You each take your shots.
And you [inaudible] up
to -- you told me before,
last year you were
running out of orange
and pink pigments, especially.
You literally had to stock
up and not for the flames.
But you have really developed
this comic body, the hair,
his tie only gets longer.
And you only get more pointed.
And you're able to turn these
around at an incredible rate.
I mean, just these beautiful works.
But can you talk about Trump
as a target, specifically?
>> Well, caricature, to me, is
not about how the person looks.
I mean, I really feel
like a successful caricature
is about who the person is.
During the Bush Administration,
my favorite was Cheney,
and I can honestly say
my Cheney didn't look
like Cheney, but it
felt like Cheney.
And I think that's what's
been happening with Trump.
It's not just about him
being orange or whatever.
I mean, the tie is wonderful.
It's a wonderful visual metaphor.
You can do all kinds of
things with that tie.
But going back to -- what this was
about was his rhetoric
before he became President,
what he did during
the entire election.
And I have to say, I think the
editorial cartoonists did a really
fantastic job about knowing exactly
who Trump was from the beginning.
Our media, and I totally
agree with Mike, and Mike
and I never agree on anything, ever.
>> I like you.
>> But I totally agree
with him about the media.
The media did a horrible
job leading up to Trump,
as they did during the
lead up to the Iraqi War.
They were laughing about him.
I mean I watched journalists
giggle through interviews with him.
And we were, frankly,
frightened about him.
So Mike and I, the thing
about the free speech,
I am totally with Mike on this.
I think the more free
speech the better.
If you threaten me, though,
that is not your free speech.
If you're going to hit me in
the head with a baseball bat,
that I've been told before,
that is not free speech.
But you can say anything
you want, but be prepared
for me to come back at you.
I'll draw a cartoon about
it, and I'll argue with you.
But what's kind of interesting
about where we are now is someone
like Mike, who's very conservative.
And I'm very liberal.
I think on speech, we're
like exactly the same.
It's all the people in the
middle that are having a problem.
>> Yeah.
>> Could I just add to that?
>> No. What?
[ Laughter ]
>> See? There's a reason
I'm sitting in the middle.
>> Go ahead.
>> Did he just go -- like that?
>> I like [inaudible].
Is that no?
>> Yeah.
>> No.
>> I think --
>> Are you signing from
the left or right on this?
>> I asked him if he could do a
Southern accent and he said yes.
All right.
Now -- you threw me.
The free speech, okay.
Go ahead.
>> You're on the same on this?
Well, you're talking about
the middle, it's famous,
when I would do political cartoons,
they talked about the people
that get run over are those
in the middle of the freeway.
If you're on one side or the
other, you know where you stand,
and the middle's where
you can get lost.
But you guys are on
the same on this.
And I wanted to get
-- and this is yours.
But part of what ties [inaudible]
free speech is also what we have
going currently with
Charlottesville,
post-Charlottesville,
with the monuments
and can you talk about
your take on that?
>> Well, it's a quote that I
-- it's a rather obscure quote,
one that I -- but I'm also an
obscure -- I'm into obscurities.
>> Yeah.
>> And the quote is
"Nations are based as much
on what the people jointly
forget as what they remember."
It was, I believe, a
Frenchman named Ernest Kenan.
I'm an Englishman, I'm sorry.
And, the of course, [inaudible],
the guy saying this one's got to go.
Yeah, maybe the monument's
got to go,
but that sentiment
doesn't need to go.
I mean we got here some how,
some way, and I just don't think
that sanitizing how we got here
is really all that instructive.
I think it's kind of living in
the rearview mirror, if you will.
You know, yeah, maybe there are
things that need to be removed,
museumed, what have you, but I think
there's a lot of emphasis placed
on trying to rectify things
we're never going to rectify.
>> Yeah, yeah.
Well, you grew up, you're from
Georgia, live in Florida now.
What kind of feedback do you get
on your monument oriented cartoons?
>> Well, nobody knows me in Florida,
but I get my share of
unflattering email.
>> Yeah, yeah.
One thing I wanted to get to as
we go through, and this is --
oh, I love that --
in just your sense
that Melania won't hold his hand.
We all remember that, right?
And whereas in terms of
going around the world,
you have your [inaudible].
I just want everyone to see these
since we're limited on time.
[ Inaudible ]
Can't see them?
Can they -- they'll cue them up.
If they can't -- but Ann, one
thing you've talked about, how --
I mean, you talked during --
about Anita Hill, about how
it was male senators, right?
>> Right.
>> And then, if they can see that,
I don't know if they can see
the cartoon, but here you have,
to this day, with healthcare.
You have men deciding it.
So it's like, what's
changed in that --
>> Nothing.
>> 25 -- you're still
drawing way more men
than women when it comes to --
>> I am.
>> These -- and how
does that [inaudible]?
>> I just -- it's amazing, I
mean, Anita Hill was what, '91?
>> Yes, exactly.
>> And I remember at the time,
of course, was both Democratic
and Republic senators, and
they were all clueless.
They all thought that she
was not necessarily lying,
but they didn't really believe
her -- for sexual harassment.
That wasn't around anymore.
So that's -- and then I
don't understand where,
don't they understand optics at all?
>> Yes, yes.
>> They have all these men in the
photograph and they just don't.
>> They don't.
>> They haven't learned.
>> Well, I want to go through
several and can get a sense of --
this is how Mike has taken Obamacare
since we went through Trump,
and you're, again, the power --
>> Oh, yes.
>> Yes.
>> This was before --
>> Yes.
>> When she ran.
>> Yes.
>> And remember when
she wouldn't cry,
and they were like she
needs to show emotion?
>> Yeah.
>> And I thought, oh, come on.
If she cried, then she'd
get blamed for that, too.
She's too weak to become President.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you know, it's all about if
a witch actually sinks or floats.
>> Absolutely.
The old idea.
>> And that one was recently
about -- I think it's outrageous,
the things that Trump says and does.
Can you imagine if
a woman said that?
>> Yeah. Or --
>> Can you imagine?
>> Or a candidate of color.
>> There's no way she'd
be excused for that.
>> Absolutely.
>> I'm going to the other side.
[ Applause ]
>> So you have a different
take on Hillary?
>> I do.
>> Yeah.
>> I do. That's -- I think she ought
to be in the financial business,
because anyone who can leave
the White House without a penny
to their name and is now worth
$300 million is -- can help us all.
So maybe we should've elected her.
>> Well, she's such a
good business person,
shouldn't she be in the White House?
Isn't that the argument now?
>> Isn't that what Trump ran on?
[ Applause ]
[ Inaudible ]
Well, she's the best darned
change maker he ever met.
So there we go.
Speaking of money and
Hillary at business.
So, yeah. The -- and --
>> The tie.
>> The tie.
And here it comes.
And the cutout deal.
And you have such fun
with him physically.
And there it is again.
>> The tie again.
>> The tie.
I think it's getting longer.
>> It's a great -- you can do --
>> Yeah.
>> Your direction things,
and it's red.
>> And it's red, and there.
That one's just -- that's just
beautiful, actually [inaudible].
And here's one of the animations.
So stroking --
[ Laughing ]
That's, that's -- how can -- if
they want that as a screen saver,
is there a way they can, anyone
from the left want to -- yeah.
I like how he's not moving, too.
He's very comfortable.
And of course, wind him
up and watch him go.
That's a lot of red.
That's a lot of red.
And, of course, everyone --
>> That was when Spicer
finally let go.
>> Yeah, yeah.
And he finally got to meet
the Pope once he let go.
So things worked out.
And you have Russia is
still very much with us.
So you could probably keep
bringing this one out.
And drinking -- if
everybody can see that.
And so one question I have,
because we have just a few minutes
before we bring the next cartoonist
out, is -- and you had, as
you know, a Ted Cruz cartoon,
in depicting that The Post took down
and it had the organ
grinder metaphor.
And Mike, one of your most
controversial involved depicting --
with Sandra Fluke in depicting
Obama as her pimp, basically.
>> Yep.
>> And these are things, even so
far above the daily kind of thing.
What do you, since you need to
have tougher skin, just quickly,
could you each talk about,
what do you do when that comes?
How do you gird yourself
against that?
>> Well, that was a surprise.
I mean, that was really -- that was
the first time I think editorial
cartoonists have really had social
media play such a large role
in why a cartoon gets
that kind of push-back.
>> Yeah.
>> Because it happened so fast.
And you know, it happened
two days before Christmas,
so that is another thing.
I don't work in the office.
I'm at home.
All these things kind
of contributed to it.
You know, like I said,
we are used to push-back.
I don't have a problem
with push-back.
For me, the misogynistic
physical threats were different,
and I didn't care for that.
We have an Association
for Editorial Cartoonists.
They supported me.
They put out a statement, which
was great for me at the time.
But, you know, we all have to
deal with it, unfortunately,
and social media is definitely
a whole new wrench in it.
And I've seen it's
happening more and more now.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
Mike, your sense?
>> Well, the cartoon you
referenced was easily --
it was the first administration
of Obama and --
you know, I signed my name.
I don't apologize,
and that thing's --
nothing kills a joke faster than
explaining it, so I stand by it.
>> So would you like to explain it?
>> Yeah, sure.
Would be glad to.
You've got Sandra Fluke, who
was asking for $3,000 a month,
and contraception, welfare,
from Columbia, well, Georgetown.
>> Georgetown.
>> Georgetown.
And Obama came out
and supported her.
>> Yeah, yeah.
So Sandra, if you're here, I
don't know, but she's in town.
Anyway. Well, thank you.
>> This has been a presentation
of the Library of Congress.
Visit us at loc.gov.