[ Music ]
>> Petra Mayer: Sponsored by
the James Madison Council,
and the National
Endowment for the Arts.
Hi, everyone, and welcome
to the 2021 Library
of Congress National
Book Festival.
I'm Petra Mayer, I'm an
editor with NPR Books.
And I'm here today with Liz Hand
and Alex Michaelides to talk
about their books,
respectively, The Book of Lamps
and Banners, and The Maidens.
To learn more about them,
you can actually check them
out LOC.gov/BookFest
Before I want to --
excuse me, before we begin,
I want to let you know
that we're going to
save the last 10 minutes
of this half hour event to
respond to audience questions.
So please do start
submitting them now.
But actually, I'm going to
kick off this fantastic event
with the theme question
for this year's festival.
Our theme is open a
book, open the world.
Certainly, for me opening a book
opened an entire world to me
when my dad weirdly gave me
1984 in 1984 when I was nine.
But that just opened a whole
world to me, and now here I am.
So I want to ask you guys,
how have books opened
the world for you?
Jump in, whoever wants to.
>> Alex Michaelides:
Liz, go ahead.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Oh, well.
I think especially in
the last year and a half,
going on two years when
our chances to travel
and see people have
been limited,
for me books have been a
lifesaver, just in terms
of being able to be somewhere
other than my own head
and my own house
and my own backyard.
And I think that's an extension
of what books do for us.
Most of us who are book
lovers, readers and writers,
since childhood, you know, it
exposes us to another place,
another world, another
person who is not us.
Sometimes another
species, another being.
I'm thinking of Richard
Powers' The Understory,
where trees are characters,
and novels where the place
or setting can be
almost a character in it.
So for me, it's just been
really crucial for surviving
and keeping my sanity
during the pandemic.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah,
I totally agree with that.
And you know, also about
childhood specifically I grew
up in Cyprus, which is a small
island in the Mediterranean.
And I just had, you know, I
grew up before the internet.
But I grew up in a
house full of books,
and my mom was a
really avid reader.
And all the books were kind
of there before I was born.
And I think without that,
I think I would have grown
up really quite, you know, small
minded, because as it was I read
about all these different
countries, different cultures,
you know, all these
different kinds of stories.
And I think it's expanded my
mind in a really brilliant way.
That's why it's so
important to read widely
when you're young, I think.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
Yeah, I think reading
when one is young is so crucial.
I mean, I have two kids
who are both adults now.
But I'm seeing them and myself
and watching other children
I know grow up into adults,
I think what happens
with childhood reading --
because as a kid, your exposure
to the world is necessarily
limited because you're a child.
Your experience is limited and
you may not be well traveled,
you may not know
the world outside
of your house or neighborhood.
But I think we are able
to inhabit books in a way
that we're not able to
inhabit even the best movies
or TV shows.
And by doing that when you're
a child, it sort of opens
up this sense of, you know, the
kind of corny sense of wonder
that you hear about a lot.
But I think we take that
with us when we go out
and encounter the real
world, the sense of wonder
that we have reading books as
kids, whether it's, you know,
Tolkien or Anne of Green Gables
or, you know, E L Konigsberg or,
you know, whatever young
people are reading today.
I think we get turned on to that
in a way that we're able to take
that out and carry it
with us when we are older
and we do finally go out
in the world on our own.
>> Petra Mayer: I warned
you guys ahead of time
that we were likely to get
interrupted by one of my cats.
And here's Godfrey.
He's very literary.
He wanted to come say hi.
>> Alex Michaelides:
Do you have a question?
>> Petra Mayer: I love
that point about sort
of visiting other
worlds, because especially
if you're a baby geek
like me, you're learning
about worldbuilding through sci
fi and fantasy, just opening
up complete different worlds.
That was just such a
turning point in my life.
But I want to bring
it back to your books,
both of which opened
the door to worlds
that are a little
dark, I've got to say.
Assuming our audience hasn't
been lucky enough to read them,
could you each tell me just a
little bit about what's going
on in your most recent books?
Alex, go ahead.
>> Alex Michaelides: The Maidens
is a psychological thriller.
You know, it's kind of a
similar themes to my first book,
Silent Patient, which is
sort of a Greek tragedy
in psychology and murder.
And it's about this
kind of mysterious
and charismatic Greek tragedy
professor who's suspected
of murdering his students
at Cambridge University,
who were all members of a secret
society called the Maidens.
And our heroine is
a troubled kind
of group psychotherapist called
Mariana, who becomes obsessed
with proving the professor's
guilt, even at the risk
of endangering her own life.
So kind of dark academia.
So yes, kind of dark,
I would say.
>> Petra Mayer: Liz?
>> Elizabeth Hand:
Well, I love dark.
It's my own taste as a
reader and as a writer
that I tend to skew dark.
And I love dark academia as a
genre, you know, like your books
and The Secret History.
I love books like that.
But with The Book of Lamps and
Banners, which is the fourth
in a continuing series of noir
novels psychological thrillers,
with a very damaged, proto punk
protagonist named Cass Meary.
The books were starred --
that book was started --
I can't remember what year.
But Brexit came down shortly
afterwards, when I was immersed
in it, and it's set in
London, which is a place
where before the pandemic
where I would live for part
of the year, because my
partner is a is a UK citizen
and is based there.
So I had to basically
stop and reevaluate
and ultimately rewrite the
book to incorporate Brexit.
And then when the 2016 election
came, in seeing the rise
of white nationalists in both
the UK and the US, I had to sit
down and rewrite the book
again, and sort of incorporate
that into the backdrop
and a little bit more
into the foreground
as the book goes on.
So I think there was no way to
avoid going dark, skewing dark
with that sort of material.
I think we were living
in, you know,
and maybe still are
in a dark time.
>> Alex Michaelides: It's
a question, isn't it,
when we are living
in such a dark time
as to why people enjoy reading
dark stuff on top of it.
You know, I don't know
the answer to that.
But I do think about that.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
Yeah, I like that a lot.
Great question.
>> Petra Mayer: Earlier, in
the greenroom, we were talking
about romance novels,
which I like to read
because they are a form
of pleasant escapism
when the world is dark.
But you know, maybe also
there are people that like
to be reassured that
things are dark all over,
or they like to see how other
people deal with darkness.
Sometimes in upsetting stories,
we're working out the ways
that we can deal with the
darkness around us, I think.
>> Alex Michaelides: True.
True. And unlike real life,
at the end of the books,
there was a resolution.
So maybe that's it, you know.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah, yeah.
And it imposes a sort
of order on a narrative
which we don't necessarily
have in our own lives.
There is a resolution and
even, you know, we were talking
about romance novels earlier,
even if it's not a happy ending,
you know, it is an
ending of sorts.
You have a sense that somebody
has been able to take this kind
of chaotic material and
have it make sense in a way
that I think the
real world does not,
at least for me,
always make sense.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah,
yeah, I totally agree.
>> Petra Mayer: Personally,
I have to say that's what
drives me nuts about a lot
of what's commonly
called literary fiction,
although you know that we can
argue about the differences
between literary in genre
and whether that's just a term
that's useful in the bookstore.
But like, some stories that
I read are very interior
and very open-ended and they
like to end ambiguously.
And I look at those
stories and I think,
"That happens in the real world.
I don't need it here."
The other thing that
came up while we were
in the greenroom was that, Liz,
you said you were
reading Alex's book
and that made me really excited
because as I was reading --
I read a couple of
the Cass Neary books
and as I was reading
Maidens, I was sensing kind
of these commonalities
between the main characters.
They're both women who are a
little bit unreliable narrators,
definitely damaged,
a little bit prone
to maybe seeing the
supernatural.
So I wanted to ask how these
characters came to each of you.
>> Alex Michaelides:
Liz, you go first.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Okay.
Well, Cass Neary has a lot
of autobiographical
elements in her.
I'm not as, you know, screwed
up as she is, certainly not now.
But I was lucky in a way, I
guess, that I was able to draw
on a lot of the sort of darker
material and experiences
of my own life and
use it in a way
that was not exactly
cathartic, but useful.
I don't believe in
writing as therapy.
But I think that most writers,
or many writers anyway,
take elements from
their own lives
and use them in their fiction.
And so that's what
I did with Cass.
So I sort of feel with her
that I'm able to channel a lot
of my own dark energy.
She's sort of a secret sharer,
although she has much more
of an interesting
life than I do.
>> Alex Michaelides:
Yeah, for me, in my case,
it's very similar, actually.
She is probably a
bit more messed
up than I am, at least now.
And she is a psychotherapist.
And she also, you know,
functions as a detective
in the novel, because
she's trying
to solve a murder,
a series of murders.
But she's also a
woman who's grieving,
whose husband died a year ago.
And she is really
struggling to deal with that,
despite her skills
as being a therapist.
And, you know, it's
kind of weird.
It's kind of a murky
process, inspiration,
you never really know
where things come from.
And I just had this image, the
very first image of Mariana was
in her house in London going
through her husband's belongings
and finding a pair
of green sneakers.
And that just stayed
with me and ended
up being the first
chapter in the novel.
And she grew from there.
But she grew very
much from just,
you know, an image of someone.
It's an interesting
process, I think.
>> Elizabeth Hand: It's a
really striking depiction
of grief, too.
It's a really beautifully
written opening chapter.
And you wouldn't think,
you know, if somebody were
to tell you that
this is the opening
to a psychological
novel, here's this woman,
this very interior scene
when she's going through,
when she finds the green shoes.
And I thought it was
really a tour de force.
It was a very, very,
very compelling scene,
and very, very juicy, too.
>> Alex Michaelides: Thank you.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah.
>> Alex Michaelides: Do you
feel -- tell me, I'm curious.
Because I did find it was a
really sad experience being
living with a character
like that for two
and a half years, three years.
Do you find that with
your writing as well?
Sad as in a bit mournful,
I suppose.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah,
with me, I don't know.
But maybe because Mariana is
grieving, that your experience
of writing would leave
you with sadness.
With me, when I'm
writing the Cass books,
I do definitely feel
impacted by it.
It's a very -- you know,
she's in a very dark place.
And she's a lot more desperate
and despairing than I am.
Not that I'm, you
know, a Pollyanna.
So I find it very difficult to
be inside that person's head.
And it's a first-person
narrative too.
which I think, you
know, is something
that can be very challenging.
It's kind of like acting
in a way I think, you know.
I think of actors -- we were
talking earlier about Macbeth,
what's it like to play Lady
Macbeth night after night?
And I think inhabiting these
characters like yours or mine
or others, I think it definitely
does have an impact on us.
It certainly does on me
and you, it sounds like.
>> Alex Michaelides: As you
said, there is an element
of catharsis, I think,
at the end, finishing it.
You know, there definitely
was for me.
I think I was working through
something while I was writing
the book.
And then when I finished
it, I felt a lot lighter.
>> Petra Mayer: It's
interesting, Liz, what you said
about Cass, because it struck
me that she's grieving too,
but she's not grieving a person.
She's grieving the loss of
the scene that she came from
and the life that she
thinks she could have had.
She's always talking about
how she screws things up,
she has an opportunity
and she screws it up.
And I feel like she's mourning
a life that she could have had
that maybe doesn't even
want, if that makes sense.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah, no,
I think that's really a really
excellent way of describing her.
You know, I've said in the
past that she's sort of --
when I was saying to you about
her being a secret sharer,
I've always pictured
her as me if, you know,
my brake lines had been cut
when I was 21 years old.
Because she underwent
some of the similar,
difficult experiences
that I did.
But I came back from it.
And writing those books, I
thought a lot about, all right,
what would it have been like if
I had not come back from that?
And if I had not
had the life I have,
if I hadn't been fortunate
enough to have, you know,
a supportive family and end
up having a career doing
something that I love.
And so to have her be so
thwarted at such a young age,
even though it was mostly
her own self-sabotage,
but I always think of her as --
she sort of almost comes
out of suspended animation
as the first book begins.
Because after 20-odd years
of not doing, you know,
working in the stockroom
at the strand,
she picks up her camera again
and she leaves New York City
and heads out into the world.
And it's a very different
world than the one --
even though she's not literally
been in suspended animation.
But she's an analog person
in a digital age, you know.
She's tied to her vinyl record,
she's tied to her film camera,
as opposed to a digital camera.
And I think, you know, I
feel a sort of melancholy
about the loss of
that world too.
I think a lot of
people my age do.
>> Petra Mayer: I mean, she's
very literally an analog person.
There are a bunch of scenes that
-- is it in The Book of Lamps
and Banners where she's talking
about how she hates
digital photography?
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Petra Mayer: So the fact that
she's a photographer I found
so interesting in terms
of the storytelling.
Because one thing that I
like to ask writers is,
how does being a writer change
the way that you move through
and you see the world?
Are you always looking
at it in terms of story?
And Cass, of course, is
also a visual storyteller,
which is a whole
different language.
So there are like multiple
nested layers of storytelling.
Has living with that character
changed the way you perceive
the world?
And that's a question
for both of you, really.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah, Alex,
why don't you field that first?
>> Alex Michaelides: Has it?
Well, you know, it made
me look very closely
at a specific sort
of moment in time.
And it's all set in
Cambridge, you know,
and I was a student
there 20 years ago.
And so I decided to go
back and research it.
And while I was writing the
novel, I spent several trips
for like a few days at a
time in Cambridge in a hotel.
And I would take
a little notebook,
and I thought the best way for
me to rediscover the city was
to walk through the
novel from chapter
to chapter doing everything that
Mariana was meant to be doing
at the time she was
meant to be doing it.
And what happened
was really odd.
So I would be sitting
in a pub, you know,
at 9:30 thinking it was going
to be an atmospheric notetaking
and I'll be writing about
the smells and the sounds,
and I did all of that.
But what also happened was
that I started to be haunted
in the way that Mariana
is haunted by her past.
I started to be haunted
by myself 18 and friends
that I've lost and
lovers that I've lost,
and places that I saw
myself, like a ghost,
you know, sitting on a wall.
And it kind of really became
a very internal experience.
And I then managed
to put all of that
into the character
and into the novel.
So I think it's a really -- you
know, it does, it forces you
to look outward, but
also inward, as well,
I think when you're
writing a book.
>> Elizabeth Hand: That's
so interesting, what you say
about walking and
retracing her steps,
and then having the experience
of writing it down and seeing
and then tapping into
your own experiences.
A lot of my work, those
books, but others as well,
are very much inspired by
walking through landscapes,
unfamiliar landscapes
in particular.
When I'm ever -- back when,
you know, one could travel.
If I would be someplace
that I had not been before,
I would find it would always
just put me very much on edge.
Even if it was a place
that was very beautiful,
I would almost feel something
almost threatening about it,
and maybe even especially
if it was in a place
that was very beautiful.
And I would find myself
always kind of looking --
and maybe this is because
this is just the way I think
and the way I write --
but looking around
and thinking like,
where would be a good
place to hide a body here?
Or where would be a good
place in this landscape
for a protagonist to be
walking along and see a body
or come across a crime scene?
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
But there's something
about the kinetic action of
walking somewhere, and sometimes
in a place where I've
been before like DC.
And like you said, that
was a beautiful invocation
of like seeing, you know,
the ghost of yourself there.
I think that's a
powerful tool for writing.
>> Alex Michaelides: Just to
the actual kinetic movement,
you're certainly right,
I do it every day.
I write and then I go
walk for like an hour.
And then it's usually during the
walk that the good ideas come,
but you have to show
up at the desk first.
And then you know,
something about the freedom
of the movement or something
or just distracting yourself
from thinking -- I
don't know how it works,
but it always works.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
Yeah, it does.
There's something kind of
magical about it, I think.
I do the exact same thing.
I tell my students, I
teach in an MFA program
and also writers workshops,
and I tell them all the time
that really the best thing you
can do for your writing is to go
out and take a long walk,
whether it's to break, you know,
writer's block, or "writer's
block," or whether it's just to,
you know, break up a scene,
you know, if you're moving
between scenes or
characters or point of view.
I just think it's one of the
greatest things that one can do.
>> Petra Mayer: Oh, I have
about 8 million more questions
that I want to ask you.
But we are actually
out of time for us.
It's time to move over to the
questions from our audience.
And I'm going to take a
really long walk after this.
[Laughing] But I want to
start with a question --
I'm looking over here at
my screen, so pardon me.
A question from Robert
in the audience
that I thought was
really interesting.
And he asks, everyone
has different fears
and psychological triggers
that affect us differently.
How do you know which
psychological targets to hit
when you're starting a new book?
>> Alex Michaelides: Wow,
I need like 10 minutes
to even think about that.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah.
>> Alex Michaelides: Liz,
you take it before me.
>> Elizabeth Hand: That's
a great question, Robert.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
Yeah, I don't know.
I guess a lot of --
I'll be interested,
Alex, in what you think.
A lot of it, I guess,
just has to do
with perhaps developing your
character and their voice.
And finding out, learning
what would trigger them,
which is not necessarily
what would trigger me.
But yeah, that's a question
that could really almost be
an entire seminar in itself.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Alex?
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah, I
mean, definitely you want to --
you know, in a sense,
write a genre piece,
it helps because you know,
there has to be feelings
of suspense and, you
know, fear and anxiety
and all this kind of stuff.
But I don't live with all
of that on a daily basis.
So it's more about just
finding a way to, as you said,
to kind of tell the
story through the eyes
of the character, and then
that I think, brings you a lot
of your material, you
know, things that you want
to hit in your writing it.
>> Petra Mayer: Sorry,
I didn't mean to start
with such a difficult question.
It jumped out at me.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
No, it was great.
>> Petra Mayer: This one maybe
is a little bit more easy.
This is from Beatrice,
who asks, who are some
of your favorite
authors who write
in the same dark genre
style that you do?
What are you reading right now?
>> Alex Michaelides: With
me, it's Ruth Rendell.
I'm obsessed with her.
I grew up obsessed
with Agatha Christie.
And now I feel that I've kind
of graduated to Ruth Rendell,
because she's just -- you know,
earlier we were also thinking
about literary novels
versus genre novels.
And she is a brilliant
literary writer
who should have won
the Booker Prize.
But because she wrote crime,
she was completely
ignored in that sense.
And I'm learning
everything from her.
She's just incredible.
It's so -- it's dark.
It's brilliant.
It's dry. It's funny.
It's surprising.
It's heartfelt, but
it's also a genre piece.
And so it's kind of teaching
me, I think, what I would
like to aspire to be, to kind
of make these novels as good
as I can and not just
like, you know, fast,
quick kind of takeaway
reads, if that makes sense.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Oh, yeah.
I love Ruth Randall too.
She's brilliant.
She's definitely one of
my very favorite writers,
and I've always learned
new things from her,
you know, her and Barbara Vine.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah, I
love Barbara Vine massively.
Her writing is incredible, yeah.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah.
But, but Ruth Randall,
Daphne du Maurier,
who I think doesn't always
get the credit she's due
as being kind of an
iconoclastic writer.
Kate Atkinson and Tana French,
who I think are really
wonderful.
I love Kate Atkinson's
books because they don't --
you know, they don't really
follow the traditional
conventions of a
thriller or procedural.
They go completely off on these
weird tangents and things,
but I just find them
really, really fascinating.
So yeah, but there's
many others now.
That's one of those
questions that I can never --
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
I always think
of the other answers
after we're done.
>> Alex Michaelides: I
love du Maruier as well.
I mean, she's incredible
because there's
so much atmosphere
and so much romance.
And yet at the same time,
you're in a really capable
suspense writer's hands.
And so there's so much to
her to learn from as well.
>> Petra Mayer: I feel
like I'm getting lots
of great book recommendations
from this conversation too,
because honestly, I haven't
read a lot of thrillers.
This is a new experience
for me all the way around.
So I'm going to go read
some Ruth Rendell right now.
Do we have one more question?
And I feel like this
maybe is also a good place
for some book recommendations.
This is from Kevin.
He says, if one is a
beginner writer interested
in psychological thrillers,
how would you suggest we go
about learning to write?
Which is pretty broad, but
I always tell people to read
if they want to learn
how to write,
so maybe some more
book recommendations?
>> Alex Michaelides: Before
I wrote The Silent Patient,
I read Patricia Highsmith's book
How to Write Suspense Fiction,
like five times in a row.
And I took so much
from that, you know,
like even basic things.
Like she says there must be
a sense of unease constantly.
And then she says the threat of
violence must never be faraway.
And you shouldn't have too many
pages without something kind
of weird and creepy happening.
Even stuff like that
I didn't know.
And I was like, "Okay,
that's good.
I can do that.
I can do that."
So I recommend you
read that book How
to Write Suspense Fiction.
Patricia Highsmith
is incredible.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah,
I too read that book
when I was starting out
writing psychological thrillers
and yeah, it's very useful.
I have to say, I am
not a big one for how
to books with writing.
Even though I teach writing,
creative writing, I don't know
that writing can
really be taught.
But I think, you know, I
think it can be learned
and encouraged.
And I think the way we
do that is by reading.
So I would say any of the
writers that we mentioned
in this conversation,
if you want to write
psychological thrillers,
would be a great place to
start -- who for you, Alex,
I think have all
been women writers.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah.
They write much better
crime, women.
It's a really interesting thing.
I think it's true, though.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Yeah, I
think women may perhaps be more
experienced with or more
familiar with the experience
of feeling threatened
than men are.
And I think because of that,
that may give us, you know,
a certain edge in
writing stories like that.
But I would say just read.
Read widely.
I think people -- you know,
you really can't read too much.
And immerse yourself in the
works of a writer who, you know,
has withstood the test of time,
somebody like Ruth Rendell
or du Maruier, but also
new writers, you know.
Tana French, she does really,
really interesting things
in her work and has,
you know, some flickers
of the supernatural in it,
which I always think is
really interesting to find
in "realistic fiction,"
straight fiction.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah.
>> Petra Mayer: We're
almost out of time.
But I just want to wind up with
asking both of you, what's next,
if it's not too soon to ask?
>> Alex Michaelides: Liz,
what are you writing next?
>> Elizabeth Hand:
I'm in the throes
of finishing the final
revision on a thriller,
a supernatural psychological
thriller that will be
out next year called Hokaloa
Road, which is set in Hawaii.
And so it's very
different for me
because it's got a
setting that's not cold.
It's not cold and dark.
So that's different, and I
found that kind of unsettling.
>> Alex Michaelides:
It sounds great.
>> Elizabeth Hand:
Coming from Maine.
[ Laughing ]
>> Petra Mayer: Maybe scary
stuff is scarier when it's
in the bright cheerful
sunshine, I think.
>> Alex Michaelides: Yeah.
Yeah. I think that's true.
I'm writing a thriller
set on a Greek island.
So that's an experience
for me to walk up and down,
an excuse for me to walk
up and down the beach
and pretend that I'm working.
I am, in case my
editor is watching.
I am actually working.
[ Laughing ]
>> Petra Mayer: We
won't tell on you.
You're working.
>> Alex Michaelides:
Okay, thanks.
>> Petra Mayer: So yeah, we
are basically out of time.
Thank you so much, Liz
Hand and Alex Michaelides,
for sharing your time and your
work with us so generously.
And thanks to the audience for
all of your great questions.
And you can keep enjoying events
at the National Book Festival
if you go to LOC.gov/BookFest.
I'm Petra with NPR Books,
and thank you all
again for joining us.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Thank
you, Petra and Alex.
>> Alex Michaelides:
Thanks for having us.
It was really lovely
talking to you.
>> Petra Mayer: This has really
been a great conversation.
I enjoyed it immensely.
>> Elizabeth Hand: Wonderful.
Delightful, thank you.
>> Petra Mayer: And I'm going
to go definitely read
some Ruth Rendell.
[ Music ]