[ Music ]
>> Sponsored by the
James Madison Council.
[ Music ]
>> Alison Starling:
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to the 2021 Library of
Congress National Book Festival.
I'm Alison Starling from
7News right here in DC.
So happy to be joining
you today and very happy
to introduce our author,
the lovely Katherine May.
She is the author of
"Wintering; The Power of Rest
and Retreat in Difficult Times."
Katherine, so good
to see you today.
>> Katherine May: It's
so nice to meet you.
Thank you for having me.
>> Alison Starling: Wonderful.
I look forward to
our conversation.
I know most of you
know of Katherine.
But briefly, she is a "New
York Times" bestselling author.
Her titles do include
"Wintering,"
which we will discuss today.
Also "The Electricity
of Every Living Thing,"
which is her memoir
about being autistic.
And her fiction includes
"The Whitstable High
Tide Swimming Club"
and "Burning Out."
She is also the editor of
"The Best, Most Awful Job,"
I love that title, an anthology
of essays about motherhood.
But, again, we're here to
talk today about "Wintering,"
and there's a lot to
get to about this.
You know, I know it's
been described, Katherine,
as part memoir, part
poetry, part nature writing.
Would you say that's an
accurate description?
>> Katherine May: Yeah, I mean,
I think my books are
a good representation
of the inside of my head.
So it's a big jumble of loads of
different kinds of feeds really.
So on one hand, I love to
write memoir, I love to write
from life, but I also like
to draw in bits of mythology,
literature, you know,
maybe some science,
some anthropology,
some social sciences.
The whole thing goes into a
cauldron, and I stir it up.
>> Alison Starling:
And a lot to get to.
I wanted to mention to
everybody joining us today,
we will have time at the end
of our conversation
to get to questions.
So please, any time you
can submit those questions,
it doesn't have to
be at the end.
So feel free, if you think of
anything, to throw that in.
So, okay, so it's certainly
part memoir, "Wintering."
Tell me where you were in your
life at the time of writing this
and some of the experiences
that inspired the story.
>> Katherine May: Yeah,
so, I mean, wintering came
at the intersection of a load
of quite difficult
life events really.
The book opens with a moment
when I was just approaching
my 40th birthday, and I'd gone
to the beach to celebrate.
And my husband came down very
suddenly with an appendicitis,
which turned out to
be life-threatening
and very terrifying.
And the strange thing was that
I'd been already suffering
from abdominal pain for
a few weeks before that.
And so, as he was recovering,
I was becoming sicker.
And I had to be signed off work.
I couldn't go to my job.
I was leading a creative
writing course at university.
And "Wintering" kind of captures
that time of this cocktail
of emotions, I think, that
will be familiar to so many
of us at a time of crisis.
You know, the fear.
The sense of dislocation
from the rest of the world.
The worries about the present.
The worries about the future.
Also that very strong sense
that you're no longer in step
with the life that
everyone else is leading
and that you've fallen through
the cracks to some extent.
And so "Wintering" is about
that perfect storm really
that takes us out
of the everyday.
>> Alison Starling: Well, one
of the themes that you discuss,
which I find really,
really interesting,
is the idea that nature
is telling us to live
in a more cyclical way, and we
don't always respond to that.
And I'm sure that's where the
title partially comes from.
Describe for me how you feel
about nature and its cycles
and how we should respond to it.
>> Katherine May: I think
there are some hefty clues
in the natural world to
how we can cope better
with this peculiar modern world
that we find ourselves in.
And, I mean, nature
operates in cycles.
It doesn't do what we do,
which is to try and pretend
that the dark months aren't
there and so turn on the light
and ramp the heating up
and kind of wish them away.
It actually lives in full
engagement with the winter.
And, in fact, when I started
to look at certain species
of trees, door mice -- which
I had the lovely experience
of holding a door mouse --
and also bees, like all of
those different natural forms,
their whole life is pointed
towards the winter rather
than away from it.
So even in the summer,
they're trying to manage it.
So it becomes really a book
about the radical acceptance
of winter and knowing it's
inevitable, but therefore,
changing the way we behave so
that we can cope with it better.
>> Alison Starling: And
so practically, you know,
for those of us,
including yourself,
living in this world that's
busy and crazy, and we have,
we're being pulled in
many, many directions.
What suggestions or
practical things have you done
to follow this guidance
of allowing ourselves
to take a winter
when we need it?
>> Katherine May: So the first
important thing to say is
that wintering can
be metaphorical.
It doesn't actually have
to happen in the winter.
Although a lot of our deepest
winters do happen in the season
of winter too, because those
dark months can really affect
our mental and physical
health as well.
So there is often a correlation.
But some, as I say, the first
line of the book is, you know,
some winters happen in the sun.
What we can do is to stop trying
to pretend it isn't happening,
to really almost lean into our
winters, to feel the feelings
that come up as they come up.
And that will be a whole
range of different things
that come at different times.
And, you know, one
of the things I talk
about in the book is the
active acceptance of sadness
as a very real and valid
and actually almost beautiful
emotion in its purest form.
But I also talk about how we
can make ourselves comfortable
during our winters.
You know, how we can
alleviate our suffering
by taking great care
of ourselves.
And I, you know, I think
about the different
ways it affects us.
For example, sleep is a really
important part of the book.
I look at how our sleep
patterns are supposed to change
in winter, and that it's really
normal to wake up in the middle
of the night and to have
a period of activity.
But we have turned that
into yet another crisis.
So lots of different
ways to think about how
to winter very consciously
and very mindfully.
>> Alison Starling: We have
to talk about the pandemic.
And the timing of this book is
so appropriate in so many ways
for people, because really
what's happened with quarantine
and our life in the last year
and a half has forced many of us
to embrace this idea
of wintering and sort
of hibernating and doing
things in a slower way.
But you wrote this book
before the pandemic.
Tell me about the timing and
how all of that's played out.
>> Katherine May: Yeah, I mean,
very strangely, so the book came
out last February, sorry,
last March in the UK.
So about six months before it
came out in the U.S. And I had
about two weeks when people
felt that "Wintering" was
about entirely other
things than the pandemic.
And then everything
locked down, and from then
on people really saw it
as a kind of guide to how
to live through a pandemic.
And, you know, I began to see
the word "wintering" used all
over the place to talk
about a mass wintering
or a collective wintering,
which I think is really
what we've been into.
But, of course, when
it came out in America,
a lot of people assumed that I'd
written it during the pandemic,
and it's a book about
the pandemic.
But, of course, there's
nothing in there
that mentions the
pandemic at all.
But we, you know, we give
a book a reading as well
as taking a reading from it.
And so what readers
brought to the book
by them was the situation
that they were living in.
And so people have
talked about it
as a pandemic guide [inaudible].
It's a strange honor, that one.
>> Alison Starling: Yeah,
what has that experience been
like for you to watch
something that you wrote
about your purely personal
experiences come on the scene
at a time when everybody
was going through it,
kind of forced into it really.
What has that experience
been like for you
to watch your book
transform with the times?
>> Katherine May:
I mean, actually,
it's been thrilling,
I have to say.
I mean, I, like I'm a helper.
I'm one of those people
that, if someone pulls
over in the street,
I'm there trying
to give my Girl Guide first aid.
And I felt with this book
that, as though I've been able
to help my, in my
tiny little way.
You know, I have few enough
practical skills, but it's been
so affirming to actually
be something,
sort of produced a book
that people can turn
to at this massive
moment of crisis.
And just to allow it to speak
to us in those different ways,
because actually we've all
been wintering differently
in this pandemic time.
You know, like some of
us have been lonely.
Some of us have been overwhelmed
because there's children
in the house all the time.
Some of us have been sick.
Some of us have been
afraid of being sick.
Some of us have been just really
worried about other people.
You know, there's been
so many ways it hit us.
And that's exactly the
point I was trying to make
with this book, that wintering
is this state we have in common
that comes to us for loads
of different reasons.
And so, yeah, I'm very, very,
very happy to have thrown
that into the outside
world at a time when loads
of people really
needed to drink it up.
>> Alison Starling: I
mentioned in the introduction
about your memoir, where you
discussed being autistic.
In your book "Wintering" you say
that you experienced wintering
in at a very young age.
Tell me a little bit about
that experience and how
that prepared you for
writing this book as well.
>> Katherine May: Yeah,
so "The Electricity
of Every Living Thing" was my
memoir that came out before
"Wintering" in the UK, but it's
about to finally come
out in the states.
And I discovered late in
life that I was autistic.
Like lots of women my age, we're
finally getting a diagnosis now.
And it's the diagnosis we needed
all through our childhood,
because my childhood followed
the very common pattern
for autistic people of being
incredibly socially isolated.
Feeling not just unable to fit
in with everyday social life,
but actually feeling alien,
like being really conscious
that I was different.
And I knew the way I thought
and the way I felt operated
differently to all the kids
around me, but not having
any way to articulate that.
And, I mean, I wouldn't want
to say that this is true
of every single autistic
person, but it is near
as done it's so common.
Of course, that affected my
mental health very badly.
I was depressed from
a young age.
I dealt with, you know,
self-harm and suicidal thoughts
and severe anxiety as
well, which is very common,
and an eating disorder.
Like the list is just something
that all late-diagnosed autistic
women will repeat to you.
So in that sense I've now learnt
I'm very normal within my cohort
and within my community,
but we are expert winterers.
And those of us that make it
through have learnt some skills.
And, in fact, wintering is,
you know, is what we learned
if we're able to survive.
And I got to the
point in my life,
once I'd realized what I
was and I could process that
and I could start to cope,
when I felt like I actually
had something finally to pass
on that was useful, that all
of that hardship was
actually a toolkit
that I think everybody could
use at some point in their life.
And despite the sort of
common belief about autism,
like most autistic
people report that they're
over empathetic rather
than under empathetic.
And I feel enormous
empathy and commonality
with anyone who's wintering,
because it's been an
incredibly familiar state
of being for me in my life.
And I, you know, I like to
think I'm an expert winterer.
>> Alison Starling: Within
the book festival this year,
there is a larger question
that all of, they've asked all
of us moderators to pose
to our authors this
year, and this is it.
It features our theme.
The theme of the National Book
Festival this year is simply
open a book, open the world.
And the follow-up question is,
how have books opened
the world for you?
>> Katherine May: Oh, hugely.
I mean, I grew up in a house
without loads of books.
And when I was around
about nine,
about the age my son is
now, I lived in a village.
A tiny library was opened
down the road from me
in a tiny corner of land.
And that moment, it was
just such excitement,
and I read that whole library.
You know, I went down
there, and I read --
and they didn't have
loads of books.
They didn't have loads of books
that were appropriate for me.
But I had a choice of like
Catherine Cookson sagas
or the complete works
of Steven King,
and I went for Steven king.
So I, and I just, I read
whatever I could find there.
And I, and there was
one particular book
that I remember picking
off the shelf there,
which was an adventure memoir
about climbing mountains called
"Wild Horizons," I think.
And it opened up
possibilities to me
about what you could write
about, what writing was,
and what you could
do in the world.
And so, yeah, there we go.
I mean, I don't think
there's a reader in the world
that hasn't had an encounter
with a book that's completely
changed how they see their
possibilities and what
their life could be.
>> Alison Starling: And how
about, you mentioned your son,
who is eight years old,
does he like to read?
And do you guys read together?
>> Katherine May: He's
not the world's most
enthusiastic reader.
I'm going to admit that because
I think that's probably a
service to many parents
out there who think
that their kid's the only one.
He enjoys comics.
He enjoys the "Dog Man" books,
Dav Pilkey, "Dog Man" books
and "Captain Underpants"
and things like that.
I'm always finding ways to
sneak reading under his radar.
So if I say to him like,
sit down and read this book,
he'll resist it very hard.
But if I can find something
that he's interested in the time
and go, oh, I happen to
have found this little bit
of information, do you
fancy having a look?
Then I begin to get him reading.
But I, you know, he can
read, which is fantastic.
He doesn't always choose to.
Sometimes the best we
can do is another round
through the Pokemon
encyclopedia.
And I think sometimes we just
have to take what we can get.
But I've yet to really pass on
my passion for reading to him,
and I hope one day
I'll manage it.
I'm working on it.
>> Alison Starling: I'm glad you
mentioned "Captain Underpants"
because our Librarian of
Congress, Dr. Carla Hayden,
who I know you know,
she's amazing.
And we love her so much.
She says that is her
favorite children book series,
and that she loves to
celebrate that series,
to tell parents all about it.
>> Katherine May: We should
never denigrate books like that.
And, I mean, I never
know if it's Dav or Dave.
I never know, you know, if
it's how he spells his name.
So apologies if I'm
getting it wrong,
but he's talked a lot
about his own ADHD.
So he's another neuro-divergent
person.
It's so important for us to talk
about different ways of being
in the world and, you know,
the fact that for some kids
school is a real struggle.
He articulates that
so fantastically.
And he's just a brilliant
like model for talking
about creativity as well.
I, we should never, ever think
that these are lesser books just
because they're in
a cartoon format.
They're wonderful.
>> Alison Starling: Yeah.
I wanted to remind everybody,
again, that we are very happy
to take any questions.
If anybody has anything you'd
like to ask Katherine May who,
by the way, had her
birthday yesterday.
Happy birthday.
>> Katherine May:
Yea, thank you.
[ Multiple Speakers ]
>> Alison Starling: I hope you
did something very special,
and that I'm glad
you're spending --
>> Katherine May: I had a swim.
>> Alison Starling:
The day after with us.
What's that?
>> Katherine May: I swam in
the sea, and I went for pizza.
>> Alison Starling: Sounds
like a perfect birthday.
>> Katherine May:
Good enough for me.
>> Alison Starling: So I wanted
to, there's, I wanted to read --
and I just want to make sure
this is okay with you first --
the very last passage
of the book.
Do you have a problem
if I read that?
>> Katherine May:
No problem at all.
>> Alison Starling: It was,
it spoke to me very much,
and I wanted to just read this
and then get your thoughts.
Because I always wonder how
an author, you work so hard
on a book and then
you get to the end,
and it's like how do
I sum this up in a way
that is really appropriate?
>> Katherine May:
How did I finish?
[ Multiple Speakers ]
>> Alison Starling: But I
thought this was beautiful.
>> Katherine May: Yeah,
>> Alison Starling: Here it is.
"It often seems easier
to stay in winter,
burrow down into our
hibernation nest,
away from the glare of the sun.
But we are brave, and the
new world awaits us, gleaming
and green, alive with
the beat of wings.
And besides, we have a
kind of gospel to tell now
and a duty to share it.
We who have wintered
have learned some things,
we sing it out like birds.
We let our voices fill the air."
And I love how you end this
book on such a positive note
after describing really
difficult times in your life.
>> Katherine May: Yeah, and, I
mean, actually, funny enough,
it wasn't hard to
write that ending.
I was looking for something
that obviously drew everything
together, but I was looking
for something that really
drew the reader into the page
and made them part
of that story.
And the thing I wanted to say
most of all was that, you know,
wisdom comes from winter, and
we don't get our full wisdom
until we've suffered a little.
And that is an enormous gift to
take back out into the world.
It doesn't mean to say
that it's not horrible
and that we haven't gone
through terrible things,
but the world needs us,
more than ever, once we come
out of the other side of that,
and we have something really
substantial that we can offer
after that and that
we can pass on.
And, yeah, I'd written a
little about song and singing
in the previous chapter, and
I wanted to turn everybody
into beautiful birds going out
and singing their
gospel at the end.
>> Alison Starling: And it's
interesting because you laid
that out earlier, talking about
your experiences as a teenager
and your bouts with anxiety
and depression and coming
through that and having
learned tools that got you
through it safely
to the other side,
that you felt very strongly
about sharing those.
>> Katherine May: Absolutely.
And I think I say in the
book somewhere but, you know,
you can let that
turn bitter in you
or you can let it fill
you with compassion.
And I strongly feel
that compassion is
the right way to go.
>> Alison Starling: Well, we
have about 10 minutes left.
And, again, I want to
ask anybody who is able,
to please send us one
of your questions.
And I do have two
questions so far.
And the first one is from Sarah.
Sarah, thank you for
sending us your question.
And Sarah asks, do
you view writing
as a kind spiritual practice?
>> Katherine May: I wish I did.
I actually find it really hard.
I find it a kind of torment.
I don't think my
spiritual life happens
on the page, interestingly.
But I do, I know that's
true for some people.
I am just a very
angsty kind of a writer.
But I do find that I use it
to process thoughts, feelings,
ideas, like even opinions.
Like I quite often need to write
about something before I know
what I actually think about it.
And I think it's, you know,
it's my way of really delving
deep in, making connections,
making associations and
understanding my own response
and my own, you know,
more complex feelings
about something.
So it definitely has
huge utility in my lie,
and I survive very
badly without it.
But I, no, I think being
outside and walking and swimming
in the sea are my
spiritual spaces.
Writing is just fraught.
>> Alison Starling: Well,
there's a different kind
of pressure, I would imagine,
when you're writing as a career
versus what many of us do and
write in a journal or whatever.
I mean, you feel a
different pressure.
>> Katherine May: Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
And I do, I mean, I have
particular notebooks
that I absolutely promise myself
nobody, it will never turn
into professional writing,
and that's quite freeing.
But I was always a
fraught writer right
from the start before
I was a professional.
When I first sat down to write,
I found I couldn't at all
because I was so desperate to
produce something beautiful.
And I had to go into therapy
to be able to write a word.
So, I mean, that's how
fraught I am about writing.
>> Alison Starling: Wow.
>> Katherine May: I don't make
it sound very appealing ever,
I don't think.
>> Alison Starling: Well,
speaking of being fraught,
we have an interesting
question here.
And this is from Hanyah
Zara [assumed spelling].
What do you suggest for someone
who gets very anxious
during difficult times?
What should such a person do
to keep their nerves calm?
>> Katherine May: I mean,
I've, the two big things
that I've learnt to do, first
of all, is to find things
that deliberately sooth you.
Like not to tell yourself
that that anxiety isn't
real or it's not valid.
You know, like I have lots
of different self-soothing
techniques that I know work
that I turn to regularly, even
when I'm not feeling anxious
to keep on top of it that I
definitely have, you know,
in my toolkit when I'm anxious.
And this will be
different for everyone,
but I can definitely
tell you mine.
So mine is swimming
in the cold sea.
Like I live near the sea,
and I love the water.
And the colder the better.
It really helps to calm me.
Equally, a very hot bath, like
the two extremes work for me.
But being submerged
in water really help.
I also, I love to cook.
And if I'm feeling
really anxious,
I'll cook something
long and complex.
And that, I think it's just
working with the hands actually
that I find very soothing.
And as an emergency measure,
if I'm out of the house,
I have a bottle of
peppermint oil
that I will put on
a handkerchief.
And I will sit down
quietly and sniff.
And, you know, it's just
something that counteracts
that rolling cycle that
goes on in your head
when you're extremely
anxious, like something
that just breaks through.
But I only got to those things
through trial and error.
And, you know, being
autistic, I needs lots
of time and space and peace.
And know I get more anxious if I
spend too much time with people
in busy environments
and noisy environments.
So I've changed my
lifestyle a lot.
And I, you know, I make
sure I'm well exercised.
The other big thing
that's worked massively
for me is learning meditation.
And I know loads of
anxious people think
that sounds hideous, like being
caught with your own thoughts
in the quiet, but it has
been the only thing for me
that has ever really got on
top of my chronic anxiety,
is sitting down quietly every
day and repeating a mantra.
And it's massively helped me.
And I would recommend it
for anyone just to try it
and to put aside their cynicism
about what their brain can do,
because, believe me, I had
a very noisy, anxious brain
as well, and it really
has helped me.
>> Alison Starling:
I wholeheartedly agree
on the meditation.
I started that a
few years ago too,
and it is life-changing
on many levels.
And until you do it, it's
hard to understand why,
but I agree with you there.
And I have a similar
question from Eileen.
And she says, how do you
sustain a positive attitude
and avoid depression when
challenges seem to never end?
For example, the pandemic?
Eileen's saying, you know,
we thought it would
be just a few month,
and yet here it still goes on.
So we have the anxiety side,
but then there's also just
keeping a positive attitude.
>> Katherine May:
It's incredibly hard.
And, you know, like for
both of your correspondents,
I would really say like
never be afraid to go
to your doctor about
this as well.
There's no shame in it, that
these things are diseases,
and they will take you
down and, you know,
take them really seriously.
But the big mental trick
for me is I don't try
and maintain a positive
attitude.
I let myself feel
terrible about it.
And this pandemic
time has been awful,
like there is no mitigating the
fact that it's been terrible.
And you have every right to have
hated this period in your life.
It's absolutely fine.
You don't have to go out
and feel great about it.
But what you can do
is keep going back
and deliberately soothing
yourself, like try
and process your feelings,
like maybe write them down.
Because writing is
so fraught for me,
I often voice record
my feelings.
I go for a walk and talk
into my phone, because like
that takes all the pressure off.
That's not my job, so it's like
all the pressure's taken away.
But I will double down on
the things that soothe me.
And, you know, that for
you might be spending time
with other people online or
whatever as much as you can.
For me it's the opposite.
It's making sure I get
enough peace, quiet.
Listening to music.
Burning scented candles.
Dimming the lights
in the evening.
Like I'm walking, walking,
walking, walking, walking.
I swear to god I can walk
all my bad emotions out.
They gradually absorb into the
ground the longer I walk for.
But it's about finding your
own palette of soothing.
And not just knowing it, but
allowing yourself those items
that soothe you, those practices
that soothe you, because I,
like a lot of us just
don't take that final step.
We know the stuff that helps,
but we don't award ourselves
that because we don't
think we deserve it.
We don't think we're
suffering enough.
I find you got feel a bit
fed up, and I'm like, right,
where's the hot bath, you know?
[ Inaudible ]
>> Alison Starling: Well, we
just have a few minutes left,
but I also have a question.
You mentioned voice
recording a minute ago,
and I have a question from Jack.
And he says, as creative work,
how does podcasting
differ from writing?
Does it get in the way
of your writing work?
Or do you feel like
it enhances it?
>> Katherine May:
Definitely enhances.
I'm very good at
ditching stuff that gets
in the way of my writing.
I started my podcast wintering
sessions in the middle
of the pandemic actually.
And one of the reasons for that
was that people kept telling me
about their wintering
experiences in response
to my telling of mine.
And I thought, wow, actually
these are stories we don't tell
out loud because they feel
like quite small stories,
but they're actually big and
universal and meaningful.
So I invite people to come and
tell me their wintering story.
And for me it enhanced it
because I hear different corners
of the story that I'm
constantly trying to retell.
I get to understand how
other people conceptualize it
and process it.
And I get contact with
my creative community
and that can be very
hard to come
by over the last
couple of years.
So podcasting has let me
have really lovely in-depth
conversations with a whole
range of fascinating people.
And, you know, we go there.
We really, I, you know,
I don't let anyone come
on if they're feeling at all
iffy about talking about it.
Like I always say, maybe this
isn't the right time for you
if you're feeling
uncomfortable around this.
Like you're always
welcome, but maybe not now.
But most people are like, yes,
I definitely want to tell you
about this really
vile time in my life,
please give me an
hour to talk about it.
And, I mean, don't you think
that that's the great gift
of podcast, is the level of
depth that we can go into.
I mean, we, you know, mainstream
media have never been able
to do that.
It's always been, you
know, about the kind
of packaged up, neat segment.
And I think podcasts are
giving us that lovely contrast,
which is ambulatory conversation
which feels very real
and very much more often
like those conversations
we might have late night
with a friend, I think.
>> Alison Starling: Yeah.
Well, final minute here.
I do have one more question,
and this is from Helen.
And the question is, what
was an early experience
where you learned that
language had power?
>> Katherine May: Oh,
that's a wonderful question.
I'm going to tell you a really
embarrassing anecdote actually.
That when I was about six years
old, for our school assembly,
they invited the local mayor in.
And he came in and asked
us to ask him questions.
And all the kids were
sort of saying to him,
what color are your socks?
You know, things like those,
what did you have for dinner?
Because nobody, you know,
infant schoolchildren just
didn't know what to ask.
And the head teacher said,
right, the next question has got
to be a really good question.
Can someone think
of a really good,
intelligent question
to ask this man.
So I put my hand up.
And I asked what I thought was
like a psychological question.
I was going to psych him out.
So I said, do you
bite your nails?
Which I thought was smart.
I wanted to know if the
pressure was getting to him.
I got sent out of the
room by my head teacher
for asking a silly question.
>> Alison Starling: Really.
>> Katherine May: And I've
resented it ever since,
I won't lie to you.
It was one of those
things [inaudible] --
[ Multiple Speakers ]
>> Alison Starling: Did they,
did he answer your,
did they answer you?
No? They didn't have a --
>> Katherine May: No, no.
>> Alison Starling: -- chance to
answer before you got sent out?
>> Katherine May: Yeah.
But I, you know, like I
think a really well-timed,
clever question like that
could have been very insightful
for the interior
life of this man.
>> Alison Starling: I think
that's a wonderful question.
Well, listen, unfortunately,
our time has come
to an end, I'm so sorry to say.
But this has just been
lovely and thank you
so much for your time.
And thanks to everybody
who joined us
and who sent in their questions.
It was wonderful.
>> Katherine May: Thank you,
it's been very lovely to talk.
>> Alison Starling: Thank you.
[ Music ]