[ Music ]
>> Sponsored by the
James Madison Council.
>> LeVar Burton: I'm
LeVar Burton, and this is,
"Open a Book, Open the World",
the Library of Congress
National Bookfest.
>> When I try and
create a work of fiction,
one of my big aims is to
create an entire world.
>> And I think that kind of
fictional world and how see --
we see characters express
their thoughts and feelings,
that for me is opening
up the world.
>> I believe that narrative
nonfiction is the closest
that many of us will ever
get to being another person.
>> And that sense of
empathy is good for anybody,
but it's also particularly
important, I think,
for writers because that's one
of our most important tools
is the capacity for empathy.
>> I think there's
many places that I met
for the very first
time through a book.
>> For me, books were a way
of learning about the world
and experiencing things I
had never experienced before.
Books have always just
shown me just how big
and how small the world is.
>> LeVar Burton: A good book
can take you on a journey.
And after the last year, we are
all ready to plot a new course.
Books be an amazing compass.
>> An addiction to reading has
been a key secret of my success.
>> It was literature that
opened up so many pathways,
so many possibilities for me.
>> I read books so I
could discover new worlds
in those books.
>> I had books that
I didn't think
of it this [inaudible] I have
books in, but I had what,
a few sixty books in this room.
>> It's enlarging your horizons,
your -- books are everything.
>> It gives me more of a complex
understanding of humanity,
which I think is the power
of stories that we are able
to see ourselves in all
manner of different character.
>> And that I think is what
I enjoy from a great book.
>> LeVar Burton: Join me as some
of our nation's leading
literary voices bring us a sense
of renewal, discuss
their newest work,
and open up a whole new
world of possibilities.
>> Please welcome the Director
of the Center for Learning,
Literacy, and Engagement,
Shari Werb.
[ Applause ]
>> Shari Werb: Good evening
and welcome to the 2021 Library
of Congress National
Book Festival.
I'm Shari Werb, Director of the
Center for Learning, Literacy,
and Engagement here
at the library.
And as an avid crossword
puzzler myself--
[ Laughter ]
I'm thrilled to introduce
tonight's event celebrating
crossword puzzles.
This is the first
event we've held
in our historic Coolidge
Auditorium
in over a year and a half.
[ Applause ]
And it feels really
good to be back home.
So, welcome to those of
you who are joining us
for the first time from down the
street or from around the world.
We hope -- we hope you come back
for many National Book Festival
programs loc.gov/bookfest.
Tonight, we have two stars
of the crossword puzzle
world joining us on stage,
Adrienne Raphel, the author
of "Thinking Inside the Box:
Adventures with Crosswords
and the Puzzling People
Who Can't Live Without Them",
will join New York Times
puzzle editor Will Shortz,
who has published or edited over
500 books of crossword puzzles.
Tonight's moderator is
Lulu Garcia-Navarro,
host of NPR's Weekend Edition
Sunday and is one of the hosts
of NPR's Morning News
Podcast up first.
Shortz and Navarro have
joined up many times
for the NPR Weekend
Edition Sunday puzzle.
And it's wonderful to have them
meet up for the very first time
in person on our stage.
[ Applause ]
How cool is that?
The event will kick off
with a moderated discussion,
and we'll leave time at the
end of the event for you
to ask questions in
person as well as virtually
for those live streaming.
But of course, in keeping
with our puzzling theme,
there will also be a
fun game for all of you
to play here in the audience.
Before we begin, let me
take a moment to connect you
with the library's
vast collections,
a little demonstration
of what is possible
when you start exploring
your interests here.
For example, let's say you're
interested in crossword puzzles.
When I was reading
Adrienne Raphel's book,
she talked about the early
spread of crossword puzzles
by describing how, in
1922, Claire Briggs,
a prominent newspaper
comic strip artist
for the New York Tribune, added
to her "Movie of a Man" series
with Movie of a Man
doing a crossword puzzle.
In her book, Raphel describes
a beleaguered solver,
cigar clutched in his mouth,
pen clutched in his hands,
who grows increasingly
bombastic in his frustration.
Well, I became curious
to see this comic strip.
So, with a little bit of
digging on loc.gov I found it
in the Chronicling America
Historic American Newspapers
collection from our Serials
and Publications Division.
So, here it is.
Here you see the
man getting stuck
on 87 across, northern seabird.
Northern seabird, starts with
an M. Second letter is U. I know
all of you are trying
to figure that out.
Raphel goes on to describe,
and he looks up the answer,
crows in triumph, and
returns to the grid,
his smoke spiral chugging
in a tidy line again rather
than a frustrated squiggle.
But of course, once you
type cross space word
into the search bar, you start
down that beautiful
rabbit hole of research.
Here's a wild image from
our National Photo Company
collection in our Prints
and Photographs Division
published in 1925.
Its title, "Harry Kohn,
Mental Marvel and Daredevil
of Keith's Theater Amuses
the Crossword Puzzle Fans
as He Works a Puzzle Backwards
While being Hung from the Top
of One of Washington's
Tall Office Buildings".
A little more digging revealed
that that building was the BF
Keith Vaudeville Theatre located
on the southeast corner of
15th and G Street Northwest.
Okay, and finally, I have
to play you a snippet
of this 1925 recording titled
"Crossword Mama, You Puzzle Me,
But Papa's Going
to Figure You Out".
I found this song in
the national jukebox,
a project of the library's
National Audio Visual
Conservation Center.
So, I'm just going
to play it quickly.
It's a little scratchy
sounding, but you'll get the --
you'll get the tune
in a few seconds.
[ Music and Singing ]
You can find so many of these
great songs on our website.
And I encourage you
to go digging into it,
but I'll leave it to you to
do your own crossword puzzle
or other research
on our website.
But now, please join me in
welcoming Adrienne Raphel
and Will Shortz with
Lulu Garcia-Navarro.
[ Applause ]
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Good evening.
We are so excited to
be here in person.
It is a wonderful moment.
I even put on my
pre-pandemic jeans
for the occasion, and they fit.
So, I am particularly
thrilled tonight.
And it is indeed the first time
that I have met this gentleman,
Will Shortz, in person
after almost five years
of playing the puzzle
with him on air,
and it is an absolute thrill.
So, I'm just so excited to
see you in person, Will.
And thank you, again, Adrienne,
for being here as well.
This is a big, big honor.
I will just say briefly before
we start that when I took
over the puzzle at Weekend
Edition Sunday, my editor said
to me the following thing.
Hosts come and go.
The puzzle is forever.
So, don't mess it up.
I want to start this evening
because I think we've just taken
a little history tour to find
out how puzzles began.
And I'm going to start with you,
Adrienne, and then, of course,
we're going to move to Will.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Yes.
So, it's such an honor and
delight and thrill to be here
with both of you guys and
in this amazing space.
But it's so great that
the puzzle has this kind
of [inaudible] of being
forever and always.
And of course, it is
forever and always,
but the crossword is kind of
surprising or it surprised me
when I found out
how young it is.
The crossword was born
on December 21st, 1913,
and it was born at
the New York World,
where this editor
named Arthur Wynne,
and Arthur Wynne was the
editor of the fun section
of the New York World.
It was called fun.
It was a big supplement in
the middle of the world,
and he needed something
to fill out the holiday --
the Christmas edition.
And Arthur Wynne is like,
no, I have this big space --
dead space in the middle of fun.
Wait, if I put a blank
grid -- whoa, amazing.
Fills up the space in
the newspaper, fantastic.
And maybe I can put some
clues on the side of that grid
to have people fill
in the letters,
and he called it the
word cross puzzle.
And a few weeks later,
people loved it immediately.
They wanted more
word cross puzzles.
So, a few weeks later,
kind of serendipitously,
the word cross got
crossed into the crossword.
And that's how the
puzzle originated.
It was originally kind of
shaped like a diamond donut
and it got tilted into a square
pretty quickly, early on.
So, yeah, the--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Born in New York.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Born
in New York, there you go
and quickly migrated
to the New York Times.
>> Will Shortz: Actually,
not the New York Times.
The Times was the last
major metropolitan newspaper
to start a crossword.
They actually ran
an editorial in 1924
when crosswords became a craze,
and the Times ran an editorial
decrying the popularity
of puzzles and calling it
a [inaudible] activity.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Yeah.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Yeah.
>> Will Shortz: And you know,
the New York Times was actually
the last major newspaper
to start a crossword,
Metropolitan Daily.
And in 1942, just after World
War II started, the editors,
the publisher, the story
goes, decided he was tired
of buying the competing
New York Herald Tribune
to get their crossword.
It was time for the New
York Times to start--
>> Adrienne Raphel: To finally
deign to do a crossword puzzle.
And of course--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: The
excuse was the war to say,
you know, these are dark times.
The paper is publishing
bleak headlines.
We need something that gives
people solace in the middle
of the bleak headlines.
And the puzzle does just
that, still does just that.
Let me ask you this.
What is it about puzzles
that just grabs people?
You know, how did it go from
being sort of a fad to something
that people love to do?
>> Will Shortz: I mean,
there's lots of answers to that.
I think we as humans like to
solve problems, and we're faced
with problems every day in life.
Most of them don't
have solutions,
but with a crossword
puzzle when you have filled
in that last square, it's
immensely satisfying.
You feel you've achieved
something.
You've got -- found perfection,
which we don't often
get in real life.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
That's true.
Is that what brought you
to puzzles initially?
>> Will Shortz: It was a--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Search for perfection?
>> Will Shortz: It was -- I
like the playfulness of puzzles.
It's escapism.
I like to play with words.
It's a way of entertaining
people without standing on stage
and singing or playing the
piano or doing a magic act.
You know, I prepare a puzzle,
send it out into the world,
and that's the way
I entertain people.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
And I really like that
because it also is a way
of communicating often.
You know, you can -- as you're
solving a puzzle, you can take
that and say, what did
you think this thing was?
You can argue about the
way to get to a solution.
You can find out
what a solution is.
The crossword is -- to
me, it's really great
because it's both a
solitary act and it's an act
of community, one
at the same time.
It's kind of rare for
activities to get both of those.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
And I will say that most
of the letters that we get
on Weekend Edition
are about the puzzle.
People are very passionate about
the puzzle, and if they feel
that I'm disrespecting
Will at any point in time,
they get very, very upset.
What is it like to
construct a crossword?
I mean, what goes into that?
How does it actually work?
[ Inaudible ]
>> Adrienne Raphel: But when
I was researching this book
in talking to constructors,
I just --
I had to try my hand
at constructing.
Because you see, to me what
I found the most, you know,
surprising thing was that I --
my brain, I'm sort of a
words and letters person.
So, I immediately think,
how do you clue something,
but getting the words to fit
into that grid is
just an amazing feat.
And so, I guess what
goes into a puzzle,
it depends on whether
you're starting
with a theme or a theme list.
So, if you're starting with
like, I have a cool concept
for a puzzle, that might
be the theme that you put
in those major answers
that you want
to get the words to fit around.
If you're thinking, I
have a super cool stack
of 15-letter words that all
like get on top of each other,
but they don't relate
to each other.
They're just super cool.
That would be [inaudible] list.
But really, it's getting all
the words into that grid that I,
naively, when I first learned
to [inaudible], I was like,
it'll take an afternoon.
I'll just kind of -- it took
lot more than an afternoon.
But [inaudible] and, you know,
editing the puzzle has
been its own other beast.
>> Will Shortz: No, you've
described it perfectly.
You start with the
theme if it has a theme,
then you do your
pattern of black squares.
You fill in the words, make them
as interesting, juicy, colorful,
as you can, fresh as
possible, as little crossword-y
as possible, which
are those short vowel,
heavy words that we
see all the time.
And then you write
the clues at the end.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: You
make it sound easy, Will.
I don't think it's quite
that easy, but you also edit.
And what is that like, I mean,
to sort of oversee
this vast enterprise
that has become the New York
Times crossword puzzle section?
>> Will Shortz: Yeah, so
every puzzle, I think,
has a natural level
of difficulty.
So, when a puzzle is accepted,
and we get about 200 submissions
a week at the New York Times,
we can only publish seven.
So, it's extremely --
it's fiercely competitive
to get an acceptance.
But once I accept --
once we accept a puzzle,
and there's five of us now
who are on the editorial group
who were deciding
this, we slot it
for a particular
day of the week.
Monday is the easiest.
Builds up, as you know, to very
hard on Friday and Saturday.
Sunday is the biggest puzzle,
but it's like a Wednesday
or Thursday in difficulty.
When we come to edit,
first of all, is accuracy.
Doesn't matter how
interesting or colorful,
the clues are if they are wrong.
And if we make even
the slightest
of mistakes, we hear about it.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Yes.
>> Will Shortz: So,
first is accuracy.
And after that we're looking for
the right level of difficulty,
and then fresh, interesting
clues.
On Friday and Saturday,
you know, we're trying
to twist your brain
in a new way.
It may not feel like
it, but puzzle makers
and puzzle editors want
you to complete the puzzle.
But we want you to have to
fight to get the solution,
and when you get the answer,
you feel that satisfaction.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
They're not your friend.
They're really not your friend.
>> Will Shortz: You
feel, I'm pretty smart.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Let
me ask you this, Adrienne.
I mean, I'm zooming
out a little bit.
There is a big wild world
of puzzles out there.
There is just an enormous
community, and so take us
out from, you know, what
it's like to make a puzzle
to just all the types of puzzles
there are and all the kinds
of people that, you know,
are part of that community.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Well,
and what I love so much
about the crossword as a
puzzle community is I feel
like there's two --
there's really two
crossword communities.
There's everybody
who opens a newspaper
or opens their [inaudible].
There's millions and
millions of people,
and even if you don't
do the puzzle,
you have some relationship
to it.
You've seen that
puzzle everywhere.
If you, you know, see
a black and white --
if you see a subway grid,
you've seen a crossword puzzle.
So, like millions of people are
involved in crossword world.
And at the same time, there's a
robust community of particular
to the crossword puzzle.
There's people who I know are
submitting to Will and to lots
of other outlets,
multiple puzzles weekly.
There's people who are
solving puzzles daily
and writing about it online.
Crossword Twitter is
actually one of the --
it's really the only--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Vicious, vicious.
Don't get involved
in crossword Twitter.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Vicious but yet generous.
[Inaudible] So, it's really
the only place on Twitter
where I sort of understand
how to read the Twitter
because everybody's just like --
yeah, they're so excited
about when they can
clue a particular word
or when they see a clue emerge.
And then on the other hand,
there's sort of garden variety.
So, I think that like the
crossword community --
and it touches -- also
touches all fields of study.
You know, I'm a poet.
I'm a writer.
I got into crosswords
through my love of words.
I find that the people
who I talk
to who construct crosswords
are very, very frequently --
there's a music and math --
because there's such a --
the grid and the clue with a
left brain, right brain things.
So, and then where people -- and
the people who solve crossword
who are amazing at it,
their day jobs are the --
you know, they're
all over the map.
So, the puzzle community is
just for everybody, which --
and you need to know
everything to solve a crossword.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
I mean, this is --
I'm going to come back and
ask you this because it is one
of the great things
that I wonder about,
which is like you feel like
you need to know everything.
I mean, just to come up with
the clues to make them, clever,
to make them hard enough,
but also -- you know, I mean,
are you looking at
popular culture?
Are you opening the dictionary?
What are you doing to
sort of figure this out?
>> Will Shortz: Yeah, every --
almost everything in the world
could appear in a crossword.
So, it helps to have
broad knowledge.
You know, you should remember
things that you learned
in school, like, you know,
history, literature, geography,
classical music, and then it
helps to be up on TV, movies,
popular music of all sorts,
modern slang, politics.
Everything can appear
in the puzzle.
And then those -- which
at the New York Times,
we try to have fewer
names, I guess,
in the puzzles and other places.
So--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: That is
such a big thrill
when it happens.
>> Will Shortz: Lulu was
just mentioning that it's--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: That my
name is not [inaudible] puzzle.
>> Will Shortz: Unfair
that Ari Shapiro--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Ari Shapiro has been
in the puzzle many times
because his name is Ari
>> Will Shortz: And Lulu
hasn't appeared yet.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Has not.
You've heard it here first.
Public shaming, I feel,
is my only weapon.
>> Will Shortz: So, it helps
to know a little of everything.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
But some --
but some words do appear
a lot, and that's because
>> Will Shortz: They're short,
and they have a lot of vowels.
So, Ari, A-R-I, and
Ira, you know, I-R-A,
those are very popular
crossword answers.
There's the word, era,
E-R-A appears in almost 8%
of all New York Times
crosswords.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Really?
>> Will Shortz: And it's
because it has three letters,
starts and ends and vowels, and
there's lots of ways to clue it.
You know, it's the time period.
It's the laundry detergent.
It's the Equal Rights
Amendment, earned run average.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: You
can just rattle this off.
>> Will Shortz: So,
many ways to clue it.
No one feels bad about
putting E-R-A in a puzzle.
So, it appears a lot.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: And Oreo
I think is also another one.
Right?
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Well, Oreo is --
actually I'm glad you mentioned
that because Oreos is this
kind of a symbolic word.
And Will, you were talking about
how crossword has everything
in it, and it's, you
know, this huge --
it's this sort of cornucopia
-- infinite cornucopia.
And I feel like it's
only growing
and that has become
more and more true.
In recent years, it
sort of wasn't true.
Historically, there
have been periods
where the crossword
editors now crossword-ese,
like these super words
that only if you're
in crosswords are a
little frowned on.
It used to be that
editors kind of liked them.
It was like this
special language.
The crossword was this like
special elite club, but Oreo.
Oreo is a word like
era is just a fantastic
like combination of letters.
They just like go
with everything.
But Oreo, there's only one clue.
Right?
>> Will Shortz: Well,
that's interesting.
>> Adrienne Raphel: That's
what's interesting about Oreo.
This is where it comes in.
There's only one clue, but--
>> Will Shortz: Before I
started at the New York Times,
the Times did not allow
commercial names in the puzzle.
So, Oreo did appear in
puzzles, but it was always clued
as mountain, combining form.
So, it's a prefix that
means relating to mountains.
>> Adrienne Raphel: My favorite
are like the really deep cut
in jokes, that it's just
like mountain, combining form
that appears in crosswords or
like a crossword-y mountain.
Like, okay, people,
it's a cookie.
It's a cookie.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
And is that what you
mean by crossword-ese?
I mean, is those -- is that--
>> Will Shortz: Oreo is
crossword-ese because it's so --
because it appears
in crossword so much.
It's less objectionable,
though than --
because everyone knows Oreo.
It's less objectionable
than say E-D-E.
It's a Dutch commune, and if
you go back to old crosswords,
it appears in a lot
of crosswords.
I don't think I've ever had
E-D-E in one of my puzzles.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Is there
things that you're just like,
I will never -- I will never do
that, and you just never have?
>> Will Shortz: Yeah.
The other answer is that
you remember the Symbionese
Liberation Army, maybe?
Yeah, okay.
So, that used to be a common
thing, SLA, and I decided
when I started, SLA is not going
to appear in a crossword again.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Fair enough.
I think that's okay.
We have something exciting
that we're going to do here.
We're going to play
a bit of a puzzle,
and you all are going
to participate.
And they are going to lead
it, so this is interactive.
So, enjoy.
I will not be participating.
>> Will Shortz: So,
here's how it works.
It's called crossword,
call my bluff.
Adrienne and I made
this together.
We're going to redo some facts
about the history and culture
of crosswords, and you decide
if they're true or not.
Because some of them
we made up ourselves.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Sorry.
>> Will Shortz: First, we'll
go through them all quickly,
so you can think about them.
And then for each one,
we're going to invite you
to raise your hand if you
think they're true or false.
If there's anybody who gets
all the answers correct,
you will win a prize.
All right, Adrienne, you start.
Say again?
>> Adrienne Raphel: [Inaudible]
give [inaudible] lapel pin.
Look at you.
Not today.
All right, so the first one --
first fact, one of Walt Disney's
early animated short films
featured a crossword in 1925,
"Alice Solves the Puzzle".
Little Alice attempts to fill in
a stumper despite distractions,
such as a rowdy chase
of a lighthouse involving a
peg legged, villainous bear.
She eventually triumphs.
>> Will Shortz: That's your
first fact to think about.
Number two, membership in
the Baker Street Irregulars,
the classic coterie of
Sherlock Holmes enthusiasts is
by invitation only.
The society's first test for
admission is solving a crossword
with Sherlock Holmes
themed clues.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: So,
number three, Vladimir Nabokov,
who wrote the very first
crosswords in Russian,
once penned a butterfly
shaped puzzle
in a letter to his wife, Vera.
>> Will Shortz: Number four, for
nearly two decades JRR Tolkien
and CS Lewis wrote cryptic
crosswords together,
sending them to friends
and family
in annual Christmas cards.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: I keep
on hoping all of these are true.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Number
five, the popular 1960s,
'70s R&B singer Sly Stone
once issued a single titled
"Crossword Puzzle" with
the repeated lyric,
"The world's a crossword
puzzle to me."
>> Will Shortz: Here's
number six,
Crossword Puzzle was also
the title of a 1984 song
by Barbara Mandrell,
which peaked at number 11
on the Billboard Country
Chart, the lyrics began,
"What we've become is one across
and also rhymes with rules.
Two down is what we tell
that's opposite the truth."
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Unfortunately --
here's number seven.
Unfortunately, not all
singers love puzzles.
On "Savage Remix" the 2020 track
by Megan Thee Stallion featuring
Beyonce, Queen Bee declares,
"always keep my words.
No, I don't do crosswords."
>> Will Shortz: Number eight, in
the 1950s, the Soviet magazine
"Ogoniok" printed crosswords
with propagandistic clues like,
what warmongers fear
more than anything else,
and the answer was peace.
And the street in
which warmongers dwell,
answer was Wall.
>> Adrienne Raphel: So, number
nine, Henry Molaison is one
of the most famous patients
in modern medical history.
Because of an experimental
lobotomy,
he had retrograde amnesia,
meaning he couldn't
form new memories.
But one thing HM
always remembered loving
his crosswords.
Shockingly, researchers found
that he actually could
form some new memories
when he solved the same
puzzle over and over,
answering clues he
shouldn't have known.
>> Will Shortz: And here's
number 10, your last one,
the longest known New York Times
crossword solving streak belongs
to Elizabeth Mosley.
Her record stretched
from October 2,
1951 to December 16,
1968, or 13,590 days.
On the day Mosley missed,
she couldn't get the paper
in time and was devastated.
However, later she admitted that
the break was actually a relief.
>> Adrienne Raphel: And that
is a good note to end it on.
>> Will Shortz: All right.
Now let's -- that
was your chance to --
your time to say if you think
these are true or false.
The first one was
about the Walt Disney,
that his first animated short --
that he had that early
animated short film,
Alice Solves the Puzzle.
How many think that is true?
Raise your hand.
And how many think it's false?
Adrienne, which is it?
>> Adrienne Raphel: It's true.
And you can watch it.
>> Will Shortz: Number two is
about the Baker Street
Irregulars, that for admission,
you have to solve a crossword
with Sherlock Holmes
themed clues.
Who thinks that's true?
Raise your hand.
Who thinks that's false?
Adrienne?
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Indeed, that's true.
>> Will Shortz: It is true.
Is there anybody in
the audience so far
who has answered both correctly?
All right, we have a few.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: I'm
keeping tabs, so it's honesty.
>> Will Shortz: Here's
number three.
Vladimir Nabokov, who wrote
the very first crosswords
in Russian, once penned
a butterfly-shaped puzzle
and a letter to his wife.
How many think that's true?
How many think it's false?
>> Adrienne Raphel: That's true.
Speaking of crossword rabbit
holes, that's a fun one.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
I was very excited.
I didn't know if it was true or
false, but I wanted it to be.
>> Will Shortz: You
want it to be true.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: I do
want it to be true, and it is.
>> Will Shortz: For
nearly two decades, Tolkien
and CS Lewis wrote cryptic
crosswords together,
sending them to friends and
family in Christmas cards.
Who thinks that's true?
Who thinks it's false?
That's false.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
That's false.
Although, I would love to
see those Christmas cards.
>> Will Shortz: Is there
anybody in the audience
so far who's answered
all four correctly?
Okay. All right.
Well, if anyone gets nine out
of 10, you'll get a prize.
You're still in the running.
The -- Sly Stone once issued a
single title Crossword Puzzle,
with repeated lyric,
"The world's a crossword
puzzle to me."
Who thinks that's true?
Who thinks it's false?
>> Adrienne Raphel: True.
>> Will Shortz: Absolutely true.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Absolutely true.
>> Will Shortz: And Crossword
Puzzle is also the title
of a 1984 song by
Barbara Mandrell,
which reached number 11 on
the Billboard Country chart.
Who thinks that's true?
Who thinks it's false?
>> Adrienne Raphel: True again.
>> Will Shortz: Also, true.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Also, true.
>> Will Shortz: Unfortunately,
not all singers love puzzles.
On Savage Remix the 2020 track
by Megan Thee Stallion featuring
Beyonce, Queen Bee declares,
"Always keep my words.
No, I don't do crosswords."
Who thinks that's true?
Who thinks it's false?
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Yeah, it's true.
>> Will Shortz: Also, true.
Has anybody actually --
does anyone know the song?
Okay, just checking.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: No
Megan Thee stallion fans here?
I'm shocked.
>> Will Shortz: The --
number eight was the
Soviet magazine Ogoniok did
in the 1950s publish
propagandistic crossword.
Who thinks that's true?
Who thinks it's false?
>> Adrienne Raphel: Again, true.
>> Will Shortz: Also, true.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Yeah.
>> Will Shortz: Henry
Molaison, the medical history --
medical patient had an
experimental lobotomy,
which affected his --
which created amnesia.
But he -- they found
that crossword puzzles,
if he solved them repeatedly,
that he would remember things
he shouldn't have known.
Who thinks that's true?
Who thinks it's false?
>> Adrienne Raphel: It's
weirdly, wildly true.
Yeah.
>> Will Shortz: Crazy,
crazy, crazy.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Really weird.
>> Will Shortz: The last one was
Elizabeth Mosley having a New
York Times solving
streak of 13,590 days.
Who thinks that's true?
Who thinks it's false?
Nope. I made that one up myself.
All right.
No one got all 10.
Did anyone get nine?
Did anyone get eight right?
Did anyone get seven?
We have--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Did anyone get eight?
Seven or eight?
>> Will Shortz: How
many people--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Eight.
>> Will Shortz: Someone
got eight?
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Yes.
>> Will Shortz: Okay, come
up after the show
and get your prize.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: After
the show, congratulations.
We have to do this.
What's your name?
>> Alex.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Alex.
Congratulations, Alex.
I have a question
before we're going to go
to the question and
answer section.
So, if you do have
questions, we're going to set
up some microphones
for those here.
And we'll also be
taking questions
from our virtual audience.
But before we do that,
I want to ask you this
because I got you here.
What is different about doing a
crossword puzzle for, you know,
a paper or digitally
and for the radio?
>> Will Shortz: Yeah, when
I was asked to do the puzzle
at the start of Weekend
Edition Sunday
by Susan Stenberg
[assumed spelling] in 1987,
I had to think what kind of
puzzle would work on the radio.
It can't be a crossword.
It can't have any writing
or a picture of any sort.
And it needs an immediate answer
because you don't want period --
long periods of silence
on the radio.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
No, you don't.
>> Will Shortz: So, I
came up with a format
of quick word teasers in
the early days with Susan
and the start of Leanne
Hansen [assumed spelling].
I quiz them.
And--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: So
glad that's not the case.
>> Will Shortz: And
Leanne realized that --
came to two conclusions.
Number one, she was
in a no win situation.
If she can't solve the puzzles
I give her, she looks stupid.
And if she does solve them,
then she's a smart ass
and no one likes either one.
And also, she found
that involving the
listeners would be a way
to connect average
people, everybody,
all listeners with the program.
So, it was her idea to
bring in the listeners
in the puzzle segment, and
that's the way it's always been.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: And
that's the way it's always been.
And just one more question
about that, which is,
you often have contributors
there too.
How do you determine
who gets to contribute?
I mean, I imagine you get
a lot of people wanting to,
you know, always be chosen.
So, do you try and spread
it around, spread the love?
>> Will Shortz: Well, if
someone's submitted a lot
of puzzles, I would keep
using their puzzles.
It's -- what makes a great
challenge puzzle is something --
you can't solve with
too quickly,
but it should eventually
be solvable.
Also, I like to give a nugget
of something to work with.
I get a lot of the challenges
that are submitted to me
as possibilities
are things basically
that require a computer to --
you know, you just you set
up your computer program,
and it'll churn out an answer.
That's not fun for
an average listener.
It should be something that
you can wrap your mind around
and start thinking about.
And while there's one
other important thing,
I imagine that people
who are listening
to Weekend Edition Sunday
are either lolling in bed--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: This
is who he imagines our audience
to be, okay, good to know.
>> Will Shortz: Making
breakfast--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Okay.
>> Will Shortz: Or
driving to church.
And so, it should be a puzzle
that you can hold in your head.
You know, if it's a
challenge that you have to go
and write down, then
that's too much.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Yeah, fair enough.
Okay. So, if you have any
questions, we are going to set
up -- actually, we're
going to have someone pass
around the microphone
on either side.
So, please let us know
if you have any questions
here for our guests.
This is your big opportunity.
Hold on, they're just going
to make their way down
and pass you the
microphone, sir.
>> I think, Mr. Shortz, at
one point you said those
who have studied or are
knowledgeable about history,
literature, or even
classical music, people who go
to the Coolidge Auditorium here
in the Library of Congress,
they are the ones who are
most successful in creating
and solving these puzzles.
Do you see a generational
difference?
Because today's universities
shun liberal arts in favor
of STEM, for example, and then
it seems to be an evolving thing
where great literature, history,
classical music is
kind of disappearing.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
the Younger generation
bad at puzzles, Will?
>> Will Shortz: I think--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: I think
we should bring the generational
conflict here.
>> Will Shortz: I think
it's just the opposite.
First of all, a crossword
reflects life
and everything that
you should know.
In the old puzzles, you expected
to know only the
classical subjects, I'd say.
Now you're expected
to know everything.
You have to know the old
stuff, and now you have
to know everything that's
going on in the world.
And in the whole history of
the New York Times crossword
up to me, there are only
seven teenagers known
to have been published.
I've just published
my 50th teenager.
And my sense is that
the average age
of solvers is -- has
been coming down.
It used to be I think
in the low fifties.
Now, I think the average
is in the thirties,
and it's everywhere
from smart teens
up to as old as people get.
So--
>> Adrienne Raphel: And that
goes for constructors, so,
I mean, your constructors
and solvers alike, yeah.
And I think it's -- I mean, I
feel like I keep meeting more
and more and more younger and
younger and younger people
who are bringing smarter and
smarter crosswords to the table,
both solving and puzzling.
>> Will Shortz: And I think
the crossword is ideally suited
for the modern age because a
typical weekday puzzle has 76
answers, everyone on
a different subject.
You know, people think
that people nowadays have
short memories, and crosswords,
you know, your mind jumps
from one thing to the next.
I think crosswords are ideally
suited for the modern age.
And I think a lot of people --
more people than ever today
have jobs that use their minds,
especially computer programmers.
So, that's another
reason I think
that crosswords are more popular
now than they have ever been.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Fascinating.
Okay.
>> Hi. As someone who
enjoys crossword puzzles
and Megan Thee Stallion, I feel
like I should ask a question
on behalf of those people.
When you look to puzzles,
particularly about pop culture,
where are you looking for
pop culture to be inclusive
to all people who enjoy
crossword puzzles?
>> Will Shortz: I think
with the New York Times
and probably everywhere,
we want crosswords
to reflect the audience.
So, everything the new --
anything that would appear
in the New York Times is
fair game for the crossword.
And I think the -- or we try
to be as inclusive as possible.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
I mean, there --
I mean, I think definitely,
Adrienne, you know,
we are seeing puzzles be, you
know, embraced by all sorts
of different sort of
races and ethnicities.
I know, like on Weekend Edition,
we get people calling
in all the time.
But I do think that there
is a thing about like
where clues, you know, tap into.
People's cultural touchstones
are different, and, you know,
it is -- and everything
is very atomized.
I think -- going to your earlier
question, I do think, you know,
young people are getting
a lot of information
from different types of places,
and they're seeing different
kinds of information.
And so, you know, I do
wonder like, is it TikTok?
Is it TMZ?
Like, are you on TikTok, Will?
>> Will Shortz: Actually,
I'm not TikTok.
No.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
That's a surprise.
>> Adrienne Raphel: I think
one of the coolest things
about the crossword too is
this way that it, I mean,
literally has to cross
all modes of culture.
And I think it seems to me
that editors and constructors
and solvers, you know, now
more than ever are really aware
of bringing all kinds
of diversity.
So, you're going
to have, you know,
an ancient Roman other
jump cut cross with a TMZ,
TikTok reference
jump cut crossed
with maybe an indigenous author.
Like there's like all of
these references get to live
in one space, and
all of these modes
of thinking get to
live in one space.
And I find that to be really
inspiring about the way
that the crossword real --
as a form, as a technology
engenders diversity.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Do we have anyone online?
>> So, we have a
question here from Sarah.
Have you ever invited a guest
to edit or submit a puzzle?
And could we have a Megan Thee
Stallion and Will Shortz remix?
Because that would be savage.
[ Laughter ]
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Yes, please.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
We like that.
>> Will Shortz: What
was the question?
[ Laughter ]
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
The question was,
have you ever invited
someone to edit the puzzle?
But I didn't get the what
the actual question was.
>> Second part of the question
is could we have a Megan
Thee Stallion--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Okay.
So, have you ever --
have you ever invited --
do you have guest
editors come in?
>> Will Shortz: No, we
don't have guest editors.
No. At the New York Times, nope.
I'm the editor.
And we now -- there's
an editorial team
of five of us now.
I'm the final editor.
But--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
You're like, no.
No one's coming on
to guest edit.
That's fair enough.
Another wound in my heart.
That's all I have
to say about that.
Yes?
>> Being, you know, a puzzle
master on NPR week in and week
out and for many years,
is it difficult coming
up with a new puzzle each week?
Or do you find yourself,
you know,
going back into your archives
and pulling up old ideas and,
you know, updating them?
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Every five years.
>> Will Shortz: Yeah, it's --
on January will be 35 years
I've been doing this, and, yeah,
it is hard to come up with
something fresh every week.
Some of the puzzles will
-- they're always new,
but they can take old ideas
with new examples of them.
And--
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
And we're pushing him
for a singing puzzle
because I like to sing.
>> Will Shortz: So, we're going
to have another singing
puzzle soon.
We'll also have another
Spanish language puzzle soon.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Yes.
>> Will Shortz: Because Lula can
pronounce Spanish much better
than me, much better than I can.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
And I enjoy it.
It's -- so I always see my
role on Weekend Edition --
I'll tell you a funny story.
So, we -- so I get the
warning, right, at the beginning
of my stint as host,
that the puzzle remains.
Hosts come and go, and
we know what that means.
We know what that means.
So -- but I still come in, and I
think, wouldn't it be fun to get
like a celebrity puzzle?
Wouldn't it be exciting to --
maybe we could have a guest
come on, you know, as somebody,
you know, once in a while to
come and, you know, spice it up.
So, we do this -- we
do this a little bit.
We have a few people come in,
and then I'm walking one day
to work and these two women
are walking next to me
and NPR building is there.
I'm about to walk in
to work on a Saturday,
and they're like, do
you work in there?
And I said, yes.
Yes, I do.
And they're like,
well do I know you?
And I said, I'm Lulu
Garcia-Navarro.
I work on Weekend Edition.
Yes, that's fantastic.
Wait a second.
Did you put the celebrities
on the puzzle?
Are you crazy?
What have done to that?
The puzzle was perfect.
[Inaudible] and I was -- I
mean, they wouldn't let me go.
They hounded up the
street, until I promised
to stop the celebrity
version of the puzzle,
and that was the end of that.
I took my cue, and
I will never, ever,
ever mess with the puzzle again.
[Inaudible] was my solemn vow.
No. You know, people
were unhappy that any --
they were like regular
people make the puzzle shine,
and you should always
give them their moment.
Okay.
>> I have two quick
questions, if that's okay.
The first one's for Will.
You discussed you have an
editing team and review process,
and generally, if
the answer is wrong,
it doesn't go in the puzzle.
How do you decide if
an answer is wrong?
Like what are your sources?
Or you can have a
healthy debate on, yeah,
this answer makes
sense or it doesn't?
Or do you look it up, you
know, in a certain database?
That sort of thing.
>> Will Shortz: I have a very
nice library, reference library.
And I think it's better
than a lot of libraries,
and it used to be one of my big
advantages as a puzzle editor.
I could look up interesting
things,
facts to write clues about.
Now, of course, you can find
virtually anything online.
So, I do use dictionaries.
I know my reference
books so well,
that sometimes it's just faster
to pull the book off the shelf
and look it up that way.
But then, of course,
there's just
so much you can find online.
Does that answer your question?
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Confess, Wikipedia.
>> Will Shortz: We
do use Wikipedia,
but that's not the final source.
>> I've just learned,
but can your team debate
and convince you otherwise?
Like no, this is really a
true statement or a true clue.
>> Will Shortz: Do we debate?
[Inaudible] whether [inaudible]
-- so I'll tell you the process.
After the puzzle is
edited in the typeset,
it goes to three test solvers.
One of them rejects every word,
in fact, after me or after us.
And then after that, the
puzzle goes to the contributors
so that they have
a chance to weigh
in on their -- on the puzzle.
And it also goes to a new
diversity panel who --
and they weigh in on their
opinion whether they feel the
puzzle is balanced.
>> Thank you.
And just another quick
question for both of you.
Do you have a favorite like
all time clue or top three
that you've just --
you know, always --
this just brings you joy?
It's the best clue ever.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
I like that question.
>> Adrienne Raphel: All-time
favorite clue is difficult.
I think maybe I can speak to
an all-time favorite puzzle,
[inaudible] talk about
like visual puzzles.
But Liz Gorski [assumed
spelling] had a puzzle
in the Times that's shaped
like the Guggenheim Museum.
So, it's all in -- the puzzle is
sort of a spiral shaped mirror
of the Guggenheim Museum.
And there's art that's hung
in the museum by the clues.
And so, I just find this to
be a beautiful example of --
it doesn't break any -- it's
still a crossword puzzle.
It's, you know, it's
still within this form,
but it's just -- it stretches
what a crossword puzzle can do
just by this kind of marriage
of the visual and the content.
And I just -- I think
that's just one super --
it's kind of a super
simple idea,
but it's just executed
so brilliantly.
I love that.
>> Will Shortz: And my
all-time favorite clue,
and you can find this on
my Wikipedia page, is --
the answer was spiral staircase.
And my clue was, it may
turn into a different story.
[ Laughter ]
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Do
we have an online question?
>> Coming from Kay,
excluding puzzles,
what is your favorite
genre for pleasure reading?
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Pleasure reading?
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
What word is that?
>> Adrienne Raphel: Well, I
will just give just a shout
out in general to poetry.
And because I think
that actually crossword puzzles
can act like poems in this way
of making your brain do
all these different kinds
of connections.
And you can just -- it's a
formal constraint that is --
that becomes limitless.
>> Will Shortz: I guess my
favorite is real life mysteries.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Fair enough.
And I have to read a book
a week from my show, so --
which I enjoy very much,
but pleasure reading,
you know, it's--
>> Will Shortz: No such thing?
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Yeah, so such thing.
Yes, I'm sorry.
Yes?
>> Do you use the
app or only on paper?
>> Will Shortz: I like to
solve puzzles on paper.
Because I like the tactile
sense, the pleasure I get
that is different from typing.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: And how
popular is the app versus the --
versus the -- I mean,
do you know like percentage
wise what it breaks down to?
>> Will Shortz: I know
the New York Times has --
crossword has more than
750,000 digital subscribers.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Wow.
What?
>> Adrienne Raphel: I have
to make a plug for the app
because of the competition
factor
because you can see your
time solved immediately.
And then you can, you know,
theoretically text one's friends
or family members,
theoretically.
Not that anyone on --
anyone [inaudible]
might have done that.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Someone would.
Do we have another
online question?
>> This question is from Nick.
What are the most egregious
errors you've ever seen
in a crossword?
>> Will Shortz: That's
something we hate to talk about.
But one that -- there's about
four or five errors that appear
in the New York Times
crossword every year on average.
The one that sticks
in my mind the most,
the answer was Rupp
Arena, R-U-P-P A-R-E-N-A.
And I'm originally from Indiana.
Rupp Arena, I know is from
the University of Kentucky,
and my clue is something
like a Louisville landmark.
And this was back in --
this was back in the 1990s.
I did a cursory Google Search.
I did Louisville, Rupp
Arena there were, you know,
tens of thousands, hundreds
of thousands of hits.
I thought that that
had verified the fact.
But unfortunately, the
Rupp Arena is in Lexington,
which is where the
University of Kentucky is.
And they play a lot of their
away games at the Rupp Arena.
So, I felt like for a
week of letters that came
in that I was the only person
in the world who did not know
where the Rupp Arena was.
[ Laughter ]
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Do
you have an answer to that?
Do you know anything
that sticks to mind?
>> Adrienne Raphel: A
favorite egregious error?
Well, the very first crossword
puzzle, that diamond donut,
it used the same word -- it's
like the word I think is dove,
and its clue -- the
same word appears twice
in a crossword grid.
And that just like went --
that has become a
totally egregious error,
so the first crossword
violated the rules
of the game it would populate.
So, that's a good one.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Errors are always
part of the crossword.
>> Will Shortz: They
were trying to --
they had the word D-O-V-E
twice, once clued as the bird
and once clued in
the sense of dived,
but you can't get
away with that.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
No, not so much.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
All right.
Sorry.
>> Hi. As someone
who enjoys puzzles
but finds them very difficult,
what are your tips for kind
of fixing -- or how do you
get through those blockages
when you get really
stuck with a puzzle?
How do you revisit the puzzle?
Or how do you change your
thinking to sort of fix it?
>> Adrienne Raphel: As the
left expert puzzler here,
I will definitely
-- I can take that.
One thing that's really great
to do is to physically walk away
from the puzzle when you're --
if you're on the app,
shut that phone down.
If you've got it on paper, just
fold it over, go away from it.
Because then once you've
stared at it so long,
your subconscious gets to do
this kind of magical thing
where it kind of brews and
percolates and suddenly --
because you want to get
your brain to the answer
from another angle somehow.
Right? So, if the -- I don't.
I can't -- you know, if the clue
-- if the answer is like banana,
but it's clued in some, you
know, curious way about slipping
and you just can't think
of it for some reason,
you really want to walk away.
And then something else in the
atmosphere will trigger it,
and then you'll,
right, that relates
to this clue I was
thinking about.
So, for particular
clues, I truly think
that like subconscious
magic is the way to do it.
To get better at
crosswords as a thing,
I think the real answer is
just do more crosswords.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: I like
the mystical answer, really.
It's just, yeah, let your
subconscious do its mystical
thing, and the answer will come.
>> Adrienne Raphel: Yeah.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Is that you--
>> Will Shortz: That's --
you know, if you were stuck
in something, don't assume
that everything you
filled in is correct.
So, that's an important
thing to step back and think,
is it possible that something
I filled in is wrong?
That can get you unstuck.
And then Adrienne's tip is
the other thing that works.
I had a professor once
who compared his mind
to an old fashioned slide
carousel, you know, where the --
keeps going like this and
the slides dropped down.
And he felt his mind was like
that, and if you don't think
of an answer, at
one point, you know,
the carousel's in
the wrong spot.
And you wait 'til the
carousel goes a little
and the slide drops
in, and, boom,
you're off and running again.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Do
we have an online question?
>> This question
is from Barbara.
Does Will have any plans
to write his memoirs?
>> Will Shortz: Wow.
No, I'm too busy to [inaudible].
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Confessions of a Puzzle Editor
at the New York Times,
I can see it now.
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Memoir in Puzzles.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
Memoir in Puzzles.
Yes. Hi.
>> Hi, I have a question.
We talked about the
app a couple times.
With more and more folks
in the younger generations
not receiving print media
subscriptions, but they're
going and getting their news
from social media or different
apps, how do you two think
about the discoverability
and the future of crosswords
for younger generations?
>> Will Shortz: It's
interesting.
There are some sorts of --
some things in print media
that don't transfer well
into digital, but crosswords
have translated very well.
And more and more
people are doing them.
I already mentioned
the Times has more
than 750,000 subscribers
for the digital version.
So, and there are so many
terrific puzzle crosswords
that you can get online now.
The New York Times has so
much great competition,
including from independent
puzzle makers.
They just make a puzzle, put
it online, anyone can get it
for free, and there's a lot
of terrific puzzles out there.
>> Adrienne Raphel: And
I think your first point
about the puzzle always
remains true across generations.
I teach first-year writing in
college, and I asked them --
I teach a course that's
sort of based around games.
And I ask students on the first
day, what's your favorite game?
And more -- I expect them
to say some obscure really
like out there video
game I haven't heard of,
and sometimes it is.
More often than not
though, it's chess.
It's Monopoly.
It's Uno, and it's crosswords.
So, like it's really --
it's back to these --
the, you know, most
classic forms are the ones
that are thriving.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
I will say as a Cuban
and also dominoes.
Okay. Yeah.
[Inaudible] that's what I play
with my daughter,
and she beat me.
She's eight.
Do we have an online question?
>> This question is
from Wendy for Will.
Pen or pencil?
>> Will Shortz: Erasable pen.
[ Laughter ]
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro: Nice.
I think this will have
to be our last question
if we have another one in
the auditorium down here.
[Inaudible] Yes.
>> This is more about
[inaudible] and about riddles
and literature more
than about counting.
But today's--
[ Inaudible ]
Who wrote riddles,
who [inaudible]?
>> Adrienne Raphel:
Well, I mean, the --
if the crossword is a baby
in this field, puzzles
and riddles have been around
ever since language started.
I think as soon as you figure
out how to put letters together,
the first immediate
instinct is I want
to play with those letters.
I want to do something
with them.
You see riddles in the Bible.
You see riddles in, you
know, every ancient culture,
every ancient text, and
oral history is just riddled
with riddles, for lack of
a better way of putting it.
So, I think the instinct and the
intuition to say here's words,
here's language, let's play
with them, that's always --
because words are
just fun to play with.
I don't think there's
anything [inaudible].
It's just -- it's fun.
And so, therefore, we want
to play with language,
and we always want to keep
evolving the ways we play
with language too.
So, it's just -- it's
impossible to divorce.
Like the word read and the
word riddle are often the
same etymologically.
It just goes back
to the same root.
>> Lulu Garcia-Navarro:
We have run out of time.
I want to thank you so
much, Adrienne and Will.
This was an absolute pleasure.
And thank you so much everyone
who submitted questions,
everyone who came this
evening, or is watching online.
You know, it's been a
real treat to be here
in the Coolidge auditorium.
And please continue enjoying
the National Book festival
at loc.gov/bookfest.
And let's close with another jam
from the library's
national jukebox titled
"Crossword Puzzle Blues".
[ Laughter ]
[ Music ]
[ Music, Singing, and Applause ]
[ Music and Singing ]
[ Music ]
[ Music ]