[ Music ]
>> Sponsored by the
James Madison Council.
[ Music ]
>> Robin Givhan: Good afternoon,
and welcome to the 2021 Library
of Congress National
Book Festival.
I'm Robin Givhan,
senior critic at large
for The Washington Post.
And it is my pleasure to
be here with Hawa Hassan,
author of "In Bibi's Kitchen:
The Recipes and Stories
of Grandmothers from
Eight African Countries
that Touch the Indian Ocean",
along with Marcus Samuelsson.
And he's the author of
"The Rise: Black Cooks
and the Soul of American Food".
Welcome. And before we
get started, I just wanted
to let the audience know
that the last 10 minutes
of this 30-minute live
conversation will be dedicated
to your questions.
So, please begin submitting
them now, and we are off.
>> Hawa Hassan: Thanks, Robin.
Thank you for the opportunity.
>> Robin Givhan: I
thought [inaudible]--
>> Marcus Samuelsson:
[Inaudible] lost the
[inaudible] game even before the
event started.
So, what now?
>> Robin Givhan: Well,
I thought I would begin
with the question
of the festival.
The theme is, open a
book, open a world.
And I was wondering how books
have opened the world for you?
And shall we start with Marcus?
>> Marcus Samuelsson: I mean,
books has always been
game changing for me
on so many different moments.
I remember being a kid
and my father gave us --
gave me "Malcolm X",
Alex Haley's Malcolm X. It was
game changing for me in terms
of identity and understanding.
You know, when I was becoming --
you know, as a teenager
become --
going from boy eventually
man, then also cookbooks
and the lack of books.
I couldn't find them being in
Europe, and it was pre-internet.
So, I was like, wow, my goal one
day is to make cookbooks that --
for people -- someone who
looked like me can find books
about our journey
about, not one narrative,
but multiple complex
journeys about black cooking.
And so, I've spent twenty years
of my life creating
books about our journeys.
>> Robin Givhan: And
what about you Hawa?
How have books opened
your world?
>> Hawa Hassan: Well, I came
to the US in the mid-90s.
And I was in elementary
school when I realized
that not everyone spoke
Somali or Swahili.
And so, books have taught
me to speak English.
They've taught me
to read English.
But one of the things that
I've most learned from books is
that I was so similar to so
many people across the world.
They've made my world smaller.
They've expanded my horizon.
And one of the very first
books I remember reading
at my own will, was
"Yesterday, I Cried" by Iyanla.
And that was the very first time
I think I had a word for grief
that was -- that was
generational, that was a woman,
that was from a mother's
perspective.
And so, you know, they
opened up a whole world to me
and made me feel seen and
a part of a larger picture.
>> Robin Givhan: Well, you
know, both of you have talked
about that connective
fiber in books.
And you're -- both of your books
really do aim to connect people
who are from a multitude
of countries and cultures.
Marcus, in the very beginning
of your book, you write that,
"This is a cookbook about
race class, and the equity
of the American food landscape."
That's a lot on a plate.
>> Marcus Samuelsson:
But it can be delicious.
And guess what?
[Inaudible] society and the more
we know about it, the you know,
the better tools we have
to be able to deal with it.
Right? When you talk about --
you can't talk about American
cooking without really bringing
in an African American
narrative and do it correctly
and understand the how
linked it is to Africa
and understand what
the Caribbean
and the Great Migration
have done to it.
And then you think about Jim
Crow and class and equity
in terms of the food
world, you know,
I think we have a
long way to go.
And through great
storytelling --
and I actually think this
specific moment is one
of the best times ever for black
cooking and black hospitality
because there's so many
multiple different way
of entering the game
and tell stories.
And there's -- it's not
a coincidence, I think,
why black cooking and black
storytelling is thriving
at this moment.
I think has a lot to do
with the pandemic as well.
You know, as people went in and
started to cook more at home,
they were intrigued
by different stories
and different types
of storytelling.
So, I think it's a very -- it's
a very special moment in terms
of black storytelling,
in terms of food.
>> Robin Givhan: You
know, it's interesting,
you use the phrase black cooking
and that it's used
in the book, as well.
And you admit that defining
black cooking, you know,
probably has -- it probably has
a million different variations
depending on who you ask.
So, I wanted to ask you, how
do you define black cooking?
Because unlike, say Italian
cooking, or French cooking,
it's not rooted in necessarily
one particular country.
>> Hawa Hassan: It
this for me, Robin?
>> Robin Givhan: For Marcus.
>> Hawa Hassan: Okay, good.
I [inaudible]--
>> Marcus Samuelsson: I
mean, there you have also
like our narratives,
our journeys.
Right? You -- black
cooking can be defined
in Germany, can be in Japan.
It can be wherever our
-- can be in Sweden.
Right? I mean, first of all,
the history books, we committed
so much time to the
foods of Europe.
So, I think the -- you know,
we are pretty well diverse
in regional Italian cooking.
But yet the whole continent
of Africa is a mystery
for most Americans
when it comes to food.
And it's so paradox
because most --
I mean, Africans
don't lose confidence.
You know, we have the oldest
grains in a place where so much
of modern cooking comes from.
So, I think it's our time
now to tell multiple stories
about how the food got to our
country, how it's been tweaked,
how it's going to get changed.
Because it is not one thing.
Just like black music
is not one thing,
black food has many different
doors, cultures, and narratives.
>> Robin Givhan: And Hawa,
you focus on Bibi's kitchen,
and that refers to grandmothers,
and I was very curious,
as you talked to women from
the different African countries
that touch the Indian Ocean.
You asked them, you
know, about themselves,
about what they're
most proud of.
You really shine a
light on their stories.
And I was wondering how much
of sort of a feminist gesture
to some degree the cook
-- your cookbook is?
>> Hawa Hassan: You
know, I didn't go into it
with trying to accomplish that.
I think that that's
what it evolved into.
My intention was to really
bring every piece of who I was
into the book and to allow
other people to do the same.
So, I like to say that the book
is a collaboration of women
that I grew up with, you know,
peoples whose feet I sat at.
And then it's, you know,
stories of the continent
from their perspectives.
For me, you can't have
cooking without talking
about the people who've
done the cooking always,
and that's grandmothers.
And so, I didn't go into it,
trying to make it, you know,
strictly women and come at
it from that perspective,
but it just unfolded
in that way.
>> Robin Givhan: And you
asked them very specifically
about what community
means to them.
And why was that an important
question to dig into?
>> Hawa Hassan: Well, again,
you know, if I'm talking
about the story of Hawa
Hassan, I think it's hard
to share my story
without talking
about the people
who took care of me.
And those were strangers
in Seattle,
those were African American
people that I'd never met,
my basketball coaches,
my Ethiopian best
friends, Sudanese refugees.
And so, you know,
I can always talk
about what community
means to me.
And I think it's something
that no matter where I am
in the world I developed for
myself, and that, you know,
their advice and their
conversation in regards
to that was something
I wanted to know more
about as I grew older.
And I thought that that's
something the audience could
have really benefited from.
>> Robin Givhan: [Inaudible]
in the conversations,
there really does -- there's
a real sense of intimacy.
So, I was curious about
how you found all --
this incredible range of women?
>> Hawa Hassan: Community, you
know, I grew up in Nairobi.
And so, the -- a few of the
Bibi's in the Nairobi chapter
and the Kenya chapter
are friends of family.
I lived in Cape Town.
So, you know, that's my --
the woman that's in the book is
my friend's [inaudible] auntie.
Same, again, here in
Yonkers, that happens
to be my friend Michael,
who's from Everett
Washington's friend's mother.
And so, you know, community
really played a big part
in making this book
come together.
If you look at the
acknowledgement,
it's like two pages or
something like that.
>> Robin Givhan: I mean, as much
as how this book really speaks
to a kind of intimacy
and family, Marcus,
your book really elevates
a lot of the professionals,
the black professionals
in the industry.
And several of them
have studied in places
like the Cordon Bleu and,
you know, at French Laundry.
How far away are we now
from a time when, you know,
there are these sort of
rarefied institutions
that celebrate black
cuisine and, you know,
and we have young chefs who
are studying in those spaces?
I mean, are we close --
are we anywhere close
to having a Cordon Bleu
that focuses on black cuisine?
>> Marcus Samuelsson: Well,
I think when we do it,
because of our history, we'll
-- it's always difficult.
Right? I think, first of all,
in most black communities,
we've had female
entrepreneurship.
Women that have created
these institutions,
whether it's the Edna Louis or
the Sylvia Woods or Dooky Chase
and Miss Chase in Orleans,
right, these were institutions
that -- you know,
Dooky's restaurant is
over eighty years old.
Sylvia's is sixty years old.
So, they provide a job, send
kids to college, and protected
and preserved a very specific
African American [inaudible]
and importance in
our communities.
And it's important not to --
it's important to elevate that
and remember that because
that's an incredible foundation.
And I think, you know, the --
when the conversation around
fine dining, it's just such a --
it's such a -- it's
such a stigma around it.
Because there's a room, a space
that we weren't invited into for
so many years, structurally,
financially,
access to building it on
so many different levels.
So -- but I also -- you
know, I talked a lot
about who's got next, the next
generation that is coming.
And when I looked at --
in this country right now,
we have something like
the family reunion
that [inaudible] put on.
We have, you know,
the food festivals
that I've been working
on, [inaudible] meet up,
there are -- on TikTok,
there's great entrepreneurship
in the black community
where you can learn cooking,
and you can learn the trade
and you can learn the craft
through many different ways.
So, I think it's -- we're never
going to have a linear path,
and that's our strength
in many different ways.
But I do think that we are at a
very -- we're in a good space,
a good place and because
there's many different journeys
that we're going to go.
I look at Chef Michael
that is in the book.
He's -- he has a -- you know,
he has a cooking studio
in Nigeria, Legos.
So, why do our journey
have to go through Paris?
Why couldn't you
go to young chef --
to Legos and learn from
Chef Michael instead?
Right? So, the book was there
so, both we can honor and learn
from the past, but also
if you're a culinarian
or a food writer, you want to
see there's a big community
around you and also connect.
Right? And that's really
what [inaudible] provides.
It becomes a space
where you can connect.
>> Robin Givhan: I mean, in many
ways, it sounds like part of --
a big part of what you're
saying is that our --
we have to reassess how
we define fine dining.
We need to reassess how we
are thinking about, you know,
the education of chefs and what
it means to really learn how
to create -- to cook in an
international and inclusive way.
And then this question is
for both of you, the question
of ingredients, the
question of access.
In so many of the
stories, the women talk
about getting ingredients
from their home country
if they happen to have
that migrated elsewhere.
And Marcus, I was struck
by one of the recipes
where I was instructed
to ferment an egg
yolk for six hours.
And I thought, my
god, I can't do that.
I mean, how big is the hurdle
for sort of the home cook
and being able to really
explore the recipes
and be successful with them?
>> Marcus Samuelsson:
Well, [inaudible], yes.
Yes, you can do that because
you don't have to stand
and watch the fermentation.
The great thing is you wrap it,
and you go on and
do other things.
I mean, if you want
to really good injera,
you want to ferment the batter.
Right,? That's the whole
key to get really good --
and fermentation is also
amazing for your body.
Right? So, there's
-- we have to relearn
that these processes might not
always be built for the life
that we're living
right here and now.
Right? Or saying they are, and
how do we have to relearn that?
Right?
So, if you want to
make a great injera,
you want to ferment
it overnight.
But guess what?
You can make the batter,
let it sit overnight,
and in the morning, it's ready.
So, you know, again, we're
programmed so much to learn
from sort of this very specific
European way of cooking,
where we had refrigeration,
and so on.
A lot of African
recipes are written
from where refrigeration
wasn't part of it.
Right? And so, for me, it's
like, why do we have to learn
on fermentation when it
comes from European place
versus when it comes
from an African place?
Right? So, it -- we can do that.
And in terms of ingredients,
you know that if you ever
fly Ethiopian airline
or to fly India, like
most -- we are --
we are sending things to our
cousins, could be clothes,
could be money, could be
books, could be medicine.
But when we come back, we bring
spices and ingredients back.
I wouldn't even think about
coming back from Ethiopia
without injera, fermented
butter, and [inaudible].
You know, that's just
-- everyone knows that.
>> Hawa Hassan: Yeah.
I know. I want to -- I
want to piggyback off
of what Chef Marcus said.
I mean, you know, when you
talk about the home cook,
you're talking about a group of
people who've been encouraged
to make foods like
French cuisine.
Right? Or you know, even
let's take a step closer
to where we are, Korean
cuisine, and we're talking
about regional Korean cuisine.
My thought of school is if
you can build a global pantry,
which is often just, you know,
just outside of salt and pepper,
right, so a cumin, a cardamom, a
cinnamon, a clove, a coriander.
You know, in a place like
New York City, we're so lucky
to have chahates [phonetic]
and caluthians [phonetic].
But there's also online
stores that are able
to sell these things for you.
So, if you're able to build
yourself a global pantry
and arm yourself with
the tools you need,
there isn't much a home cook
cannot accomplish, you know,
especially because of where
we're at right now in terms
of forward movement, as
Chef Marcus mentioned.
So, you know, I don't know
that it's African foods
or Indian foods or this or that,
but if you're willing to take
on the responsibility of
cooking these foods and getting
to know about, you know,
the global majority,
it is really your duty
to honor your pantry
by stocking the right
things in there.
>> Marcus Samuelsson:
And I also would say,
the earlier you cook this way,
the better because we are
forced to cook this way.
Right? There's some
major things happening.
Right? Climate change, well, is
completely changing how we have
to cook, so we have to
cook more plant based.
We have to cook -- take down
our animal protein intake.
And guess what?
The majority of the world is
way ahead of the US on that.
The quicker we retool, we cook
more with chickpeas, lentils,
and so on, I think the better.
And a lot of these things
require a little bit
of fermentation, using supplies
as a preservative technique,
and a flavor enhancer,
of course,
and just retooling how we
learn how to enjoy a meal.
It's not like, this
vegetarian meal was amazing.
It tastes like chicken.
That's not the goal.
It should be this meal
is amazing because it is.
>> Robin Givhan: And I think
also people might be surprised
at just the sheer number of
recipes that are vegetarian
or vegan that are just sort
of inherently healthier
because that is sort of
the lineage of the cuisine.
I mean, were there things that
surprised you as you talked
to the different women in
your book, Hawa, as they talk
about their favorite foods
and their favorite recipes?
>> Hawa Hassan: Not so much.
I think -- you know, I come from
a mother who lives in Norway.
And so -- and my grandmother
has never left Somalia.
And so -- and my
grandmother does not cook,
and my mother is not
that great of a cook.
My siblings -- my
mother has 10 children.
And so, my siblings
have always cooked,
and they've always taken care
of other kids while my
mother has gone on to work.
And so, I think the one shocker
to me was how much they enjoyed
cooking because that's not --
I'm the eldest girl of 10.
And so, that was odd
to me that, you know,
these women really
enjoy cooking.
Like it was -- you know,
some places like Madagascar
and Mozambique, it was like days
on end cooking without a break.
And that was a bit of a shock
to me in terms of cooking.
>> Robin Givhan: Well, I am
going to pause my questions
and take a few from
the audience.
And one of the first
is actually for Hawa,
and that is why did you choose
the eight nations bordering the
Indian Ocean?
Was there a commonality
that you wanted to explore?
>> Hawa Hassan: Yeah, I mean,
I really wanted to focus
on making the world smaller.
I think that a lot of what
I want to do with my career
and my life is to examine
how food has affected people
globally and to really
hone in on our similarities
and not our differences.
I own a lot of CPG company --
a consumer packaged
company called Best Best.
It's all based on condiments
from the continent of Africa.
And for me, you know, talking
about the Indian Ocean,
focusing on spices, doing
it from the perspective
of nature always
made the most sense.
>> Robin Givhan: And this
question is for Marcus,
and actually, I think both
of you could probably
respond to it.
It's what ingredients do you
recommend for a home cook
who is just beginning to
build a global pantry?
What are that -- what
are the building blocks
for a good foundation?
>> Marcus Samuelsson:
I mean, I think --
I think we talked about --
we touched on that before,
but I think if you look at that
space between sort of coriander,
cumin, cinegrey like it's
almost like Moroccan spice,
but there's a Moroccan
spice blend called [foreign
language spoken].
That's a great starting
point because it's not spicy,
but it's so flavorful, right,
almost like a Chinese
five spice.
That's a great one.
I think you need -- we
need to think about oils,
different types of oils and
different types of vinegars.
You know, so it's
not just spices;
it's also the vinegars and oils.
And then also, rethink
your rice,
your millet, your couscous.
Right? Now we have
different ways of really think
through a meal and
then your lentils,
your chickpeas and so on.
Right? You have that.
Now you're building
an interesting pantry.
>> Robin Givhan: And what are
your thoughts on that, Hawa?
>> Hawa Hassan: No, I agree.
I mean, I think if you can
stock your pantry with a lot
of the spices that
touch the Indian Ocean,
because if you really
think about it,
it touches the whole globe.
You know, there are things
that I make every day,
like I make a [inaudible]
mix, which is used
in Northern Africa,
but is heavily used
on the Indian Ocean.
Some people would say that it's
similar to [inaudible] masala.
And so, you know,
if you are able
to make a [inaudible] masala
or [inaudible] at home,
which consists of almost all
the same things cumin, cardamom,
cinnamon, cloves, turmeric,
and then in the [inaudible]
masala part, curry powder,
if you're able to
make that at home,
I think that that's a good
starting block for building.
>> Robin Givhan: And
Marcus, one of the --
our viewers is interested
to know whether
or not you are still involved
in Scandinavian cuisine?
>> Marcus Samuelsson:
Absolutely, I mean,
I grew up in Scandinavia.
Right? My grandmother,
who was an amazing chef,
she taught me -- the reason
why I can be a chef today is
because of my grandmother,
Helga.
So, I still eat herring
and enjoy all the
Scandinavian breads and so on,
so it will always be
part of my journey
and making [inaudible],
making small salmon.
A lot of the things --
my cooking technique
is still based on that.
And you know, I just [inaudible]
focus on one thing, and,
you know, great things
with a restaurant is
that you can express
yourself in different ways
in our Marcus restaurants.
And we focus more
on the techniques
that I learned in Scandinavia.
>> Robin Givhan: And both
of you are immigrants,
fairly recent immigrants
to the country.
And I am wondering how, as you
sort of, Marcus, settled and,
you know, focused on Harlem,
how your understanding
and your thoughts about what
African American cuisine,
black cooking, cooking from the
Diaspora, how that was defined
as you observed the
food ways around you?
>> Marcus Samuelsson: Go ahead.
>> Hawa Hassan: I thought
she was asking you?
[Inaudible] Okay.
I grew up in Seattle, and
when I was about 12 years old
or 11 years old, my basketball
teammate's parents took me in.
And they owned a restaurant
from New Orleans that was based
on the cuisines of New Orleans.
And so, I grew up
for a few years --
not for a long part of
my life because I ended
up graduating high
school and leaving home,
but I grew up washing
dishes there.
And so, I think some of my very
first introductions to food ways
of African American people
were, you know, grits,
all sorts of chicken but
mainly fried chicken, you know,
collard greens, which I
still make 'til this day.
In Bibi's Kitchen, there's
a collard green in there
from Kenya, which is very
similar to the collard greens
that I grew up with here.
My aunt, she lives from
Shreveport, Louisiana.
Even when I go home to
Seattle now, I sit at her feet
and learn new ways to make grits
and shrimp, stuff that are some
of my favorite things.
I regret to say because I
live in Fort Greene, Brooklyn,
and I don't go up
to Harlem anymore,
when I first moved here, I used
to go to Melba's all the time.
So, I'm a little out of
pocket right now in terms
of being close to the cuisine.
>> Marcus Samuelsson: I mean--
>> Robin Givhan: [Inaudible]
your reaction, Marcus,
as you began to explore African
American cuisine as it is --
as it was represented here?
>> Marcus Samuelsson:
Well, I mean,
I think exploring
is the best word.
Right? Because a lot of
information, in terms of a lot
of black craftsmanship, is
not right in front of you.
You have to actually
search and explore.
And first of all, I just think
that when you think about sort
of the four pillars of African
American cooking, it links --
so much links back to Africa.
Right? When I think about,
whether it's Southern Cooking,
that we think about a soul
food or low country cooking
or you think about
barbecue or whatever, look,
whatever cuisine it is,
it follows our journey.
You know, it's all -- it's
tied to the migration.
It's tied to American history,
and just like American history,
it needs to be rewritten and
actually write black people
in factually correct
into the history.
And we should be proud
of all the cuisines
in African American cooking.
American food wouldn't
be the same.
It would be very
dull without black --
and without the black
experience.
And then it's -- obviously
it's been built on because
as we marry, as we move
around, you know, whether it's
through the Caribbean or whether
it's going to the West Coast,
obviously our cuisine evolves.
Right? But we should be
really proud of our cooking
and our black cooking
in America,
and it will continue to evolve.
>> Robin Givhan:
One other question
from the audience is back on the
shopping for those ingredients.
How important is it to shop
at cultural grocery stores
when preparing your
dishes, or, you know,
are most of the ingredients
available at sort
of mass market stores?
Would you be better served
going to a more specific grocer?
>> Hawa Hassan: You know, I'm --
the thought of if there are any
obstacles in your way to get
to your goal, eliminate them.
So, if you're starting out,
I hate to endorse these
bigger grocery chains,
but you're going to
find cumin there.
You're going to find
cardamom in there.
You're going to find --
you know, their global
aisles are also growing.
And I think that a lot of these
available grocery store chains
are almost trying to eliminate
the ethnic aisle, which I don't
like saying that word, but
they're trying to eliminate it.
So, don't be afraid to go
to your local grocery store
and get what you need.
And then as you get more
familiar with these cuisines,
start going to the
specialty stores
to support them I would say.
>> Marcus Samuelsson: I
mean, it's also depending
on how much time you have.
Like because if you go to
one of our stores or one
of our markets, it's a vibe.
You know, when I go
to my Senegalese guys
on 116, it's a vibe.
I learn about afrobeat.
I learn about -- you
know, I hear a blend
between Burna Boy
[phonetic] and [inaudible].
And you know, for
me it's a vibe.
Once you enter this
space it's never just
about buying fermented
shrimp paste.
It's about all of it.
Right? And you know, that
might be a weekend decision,
but if it's a regular day and
I'm rushed, sure I have to go
to a bigger grocery store.
But you know, it's
such a pleasure
to go to an African market.
So, you know, it never is
about just buying the thing.
If you do that, you're
missing out.
You -- it's about arguing about
the price, going back and forth,
and they're always going to win.
You know you're going to lose,
but you're going to
have a great time.
>> Robin Givhan: Well, I loved,
Marcus, how you described it
as sort of the same way
that people, you know,
embrace going into, you
know, the Jewish deli
that someone has told
them about or going
to the Italian pasta shop and
they get their fresh pasta.
That there should be the same
kind of enthusiasm for sort
of going down the rabbit
hole into, you know,
the Senegalese market
or an Ethiopian market.
Right?
>> Marcus Samuelsson: Yes.
I mean, I think about it
like I have a decision.
Right? If I have -- if I
want to go get my haircut,
it's never about
getting my haircut.
Right? It's really about
which barber do I want
to catch up with?
What do I -- do I
want to talk sports?
Do I want to talk -- so there is
like my African American
barbershop
in Harlem on this side.
Then I go to my Senegalese guys,
and we talk about Africa news.
Like still get the job done
but just very different,
diverse conversation.
They're both great.
They're both in Harlem.
They're both local,
just different vibes.
Same thing when you're
shopping for food.
>> Robin Givhan: Well, I'm
afraid that we are out of time,
so I'm going to have
to end it there.
But I do want to say that please
keep enjoying the National Book
festival at loc.gov/bookfest.
And I want to thank Marcus
and Hawa for joining me today.
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