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>> Narrator: sponsored by
the James Madison Council
and the National
Endowment for the Arts.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
Hi, welcome to the 2021,
Library of Congress
National Book festival.
I'm Karen Grigsby Bates.
I am the senior correspondence
for Code Switch,
which is NPR's podcast
that's devoted
to covering the race
and identity.
I am delighted to be here today.
And we have only a
little bit of time.
So we're going to jump right in.
I'm completely pleased
and dazzled even.
A total fan girl, to be in the
presence of these two authors.
They've both written
extraordinary books.
And that's the critics'
assessment as well as mine.
And we're here to about them.
So please welcome
Honorée Fanonne Jeffers.
She's the author of" The
Love Songs of W.E.B. DuBois,"
which is a nominee for this
year's National Book Award.
And Deesha Philyaw,
author of "The Secret Life
of Church Ladies,"
which was a finalist
for the 2020 National
Book Award last year.
If we do this right,
we'll have some time
for questions at the end.
So we're going to
try to move along.
And I'm going to start by
asking both Honorée and Deesha
to give us a sort
of 60-second recap,
or synopsis about
what their books are
about in case you
haven't seen them
or don't know very
much about them.
Because I want to
entice you to read them,
they're terrific books.
Honorée let's start with you.
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: Thank you so much.
As an afro-indigenous
people, it's important for me
to give a land acknowledgement
for the land that I live on now.
I live in Oklahoma in Norman,
on land that was the traditional
home of the Caddo Nation,
Wichita and affiliated tribes.
And served as a hunting
ground, trade exchange point
and migration route for
the Apache, Comanche,
Kiowa, and Dosage Nations.
This land was also promised
to the Muscogee Creek
and Seminole peoples
after their forced removal
from the southeastern
United States in the 1830s.
My novel is a multigenerational
epic that tells the story
of an Afro-indigenous family
from the mid-18th century
to the very early 20th century.
A family with indigenous
Greek, African,
and European backgrounds.
The heroin of this epic
is Ailey Pearl Garfield,
who's a young black girl
with braids coming-of-age.
Many struggles but who
is deeply connected
to her maternal Georgia elders
and ancestors, and the land
that they still live on.
>> Karen Grigsby
Bates: Thank you.
Deesha.
>> Deesha Philyaw:
"The Secret Life
of Church Ladies" is a
collection of nine short stories
that center four
generations of black women
and girls, all from the south.
And they are grappling with sex,
sexuality, and the teachings
of the traditional black church.
>> Karen Grigsby
Bates: You're both aware
that this year's festival theme
is open a book, open the world.
I'm curious as to how books
opened you all's worlds.
Were you library rats?
Were you the kind of kids
that you hear the parents
hollering upstairs,
turn the light off
it's time to go to bed.
I want to know about how books
sort of made you who you are.
Deesha, we'll start with you.
>> Deesha Philyaw: I read early.
My mother said I read at three.
And I told her I didn't have
these memories of reading early.
And she said you don't
remember the pigeon books?
So I guess there was a
pigeon book that was pivotal
to my reading development.
But I do remember sitting on
the floor of the public library,
the main branch in
downtown Jacksonville,
Florida where I was
born and raised.
And spending entire summer
days in the library reading,
sometimes in the
children's section.
And then sometimes I'd wander
over into the adult section.
Probably read more
Jackie Collins back then
than I should have.
But that's how I learned things
that no one was telling
me about.
But I have always been
a voracious reader.
I remember falling in love with
"Daddy Was a Number Runner,"
by Louise Meriwether.
Which centered a black girl
in Harlem in the 1930s.
And there's a lot of
history in that book.
And that was the first time
that I experience books taking,
realistic fiction,
taking me somewhere,
but also teaching the history.
And introducing me to a
man named James Baldwin
who wrote the forward
to that book.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
Honorée what about you?
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers:
I too was an early reader.
So, Deesha has me by about
one and a half years.
I started reading when I
was around four and a half.
I remember my oldest
sister Valjean taught me
out of the Dick and Jane books.
Libraries were always a
place of great piece for me.
bookstores were always a
place of great piece for me.
And I read, very widely,
I read young adult books.
Deesha has mentioned "Daddy Was
a Number Runner," oh my gosh,
I think that's like
you know the bible
for young black girls
of a particular age.
I read "Roll of Thunder,
Hear My Cry."
I also read what Dr. Henry
Louis Gates called the classic
slave narrative.
I read James Baldwin,
I read Richard Wright.
Later I read Zora Neale Hurston.
And I read W.B. DuBois'
"The Soul of Black Folk"
in junior high school.
So yes, I was an avid reader.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: How
much did some of the books
that impressed you the most
or that you consider classic,
how or if they did, how did
they affect your writing
and your outlook
on being a writer?
>> Deesha Philyaw: You know,
the books that shaped me
as a writer were the
books where the authors,
like Tony Morrison,
or James Baldwin.
Also Louise Meriwether who wrote
"Daddy Was a Number Runner."
This idea that black
life could be centered.
That you could write
unapologetically
about black folks.
And write characters that
talk the way that I talk
and the way that
my family spoke.
And so that really gave me
permission that I didn't have
to write the kinds of books
that we were taught in school.
Because I wasn't taught a
lot of black or black authors
in my formal education.
I read a lot on my own.
And so that validation is
what I got those writers,
even though early
on I wasn't thinking
about becoming a writer.
But then in my adulthood
when I did decide
to become a writer I knew that I
could write stories about people
who look like me and
spoke the way that I did,
because of other writers
before me who had done that.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
What about you Honorée?
Honorée?
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: Yeah, I'm here.
So, I'm not really sure
that I ever considered
anything the classics,
because of the fact that
my parents were professors.
My mother was an
adjunct professor.
My father was a full professor.
And both of them are
African-American.
I just again, read very widely.
And so I was able to
make my own decision
about what I would
consider classics.
What I would not.
I will say that African-American
literature, was stressed
to be the most important.
Even though in my home.
Even though I was reading
Shakespeare and you know reading
out of the Norton Anthology
of early British literature.
I never really liked
anything after 1900 to honest.
So I'm not really sure how it
shaped me until I was an adult
and you know I was able
to make my own choices.
And that was around the
eighties and the early nineties.
And so black women's literature
of that time, really
did affect me.
And black women writers
Toni Morris and Toni Takeno,
Lucille Clifton, Ntozake
Shange, Alice Walker of course.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
I'll start by asking
to whom do each of you write?
Do you write for yourselves?
Do you write for a white
or black community?
Do you write for the world?
You know I've talked to authors
sometimes where they just say,
I'm writing what
I want to write.
I'm writing my story,
if other people want
to come along, great.
If they don't get it, oh
well find another book.
And then some people
feel like they have
to do this almost
missionary outreach
to beyond their community
so people will understand
black people better.
I'm wondering what each of you,
do you have a philosophy
about that?
Who do you write for?
>> Deesha Philyaw: I
definitely don't see myself
as doing outreach or
translating black culture
or black life for anyone.
I think first and
foremost, I write for myself.
Because you know,
in the beginning it's
just me and the page.
And so if I laugh then
perhaps readers will laugh.
If I cry perhaps
readers will cry.
So I'm the you know first
judge and jury I guess.
And then with "The Secret
Lives of Church Ladies,"
in particular, I
did have the hope
that black women would
feel seen and heard.
And that they would
connect to the stories.
And again get that
validation about something
that lots of us grapple with.
Whether we are directly
connected to the church now
or someone in our life was.
Someone I called
church lady adjacent.
That you know collectively,
black women would feel
like these were our stories.
I knew that people who aren't
black women could also connect
to those stories.
Because as August Wilson
said you know black life
is universal.
That you know when a
critic questioned him
about only writing
about black life.
He said that, you know,
he could write forever
about the black experience
in Americans and never run
out of topics that were
relatable to everyone.
So the specificity
of our stories has
that universal resonance.
So I believe that true,
and I knew that other
people could connect
to my stories if
they so chose to.
But ultimately you
know, initially it's me.
I'm my first audience.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
Honorée, what do you think?
Don't filter it just tell us.
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers:
I think nobody ever asks white
writers these kind of questions.
>> Karen Grigsby
Bates: Oh, I do.
But okay. I want to know
who any author writes
for because sometimes
the answer is surprising.
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: Yeah, I understand.
I mean I'm African-American,
I'm Afro-indigenous.
I did for me want this,
you know, story of a family
of Afro-indigenous background
to resonate with folks like me.
Some who were reared in
African-American background.
And then some were reared in
Native American background.
And so I wrote this
book for black women,
for black women who
look like me.
Deep brown, dark brown
skin black women.
But I do hope at some point
people will stop asking black
writers who they write for
and who they want
to read their books.
Because I think that
again, I mean other
than you I've never heard
anybody else say I ask white
writers this.
And frankly, I've never
heard white writers asked
who they write for.
But I understand that you
know, it's important for people
to feel like black
literature is for everybody.
But I would like to say that
black women read everybody.
We read everybody.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: As
statisticians would say we're
over indexed in the reading.
Yeah. These books.
Both your books focus
on both the interior
and exterior lives
of black women.
And one of the things that
really, really struck me
as I was reading them was
this question of what happens
when you want something
that's very different
from what the people who love
you want, or did they want it
for them, or did
they want it for you?
There are costs to that, there
are consequences to that.
And I love that you both
examined that really deeply.
Can you talk a little bit
about why that was so important
that tension of you
know do I do it for me,
even though it may make my
grandmother crazy, or my father,
or my pastor, whoever.
>> Deesha Philyaw: Honorée,
you want to go ahead?
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: Okay,
I think that for my protagonist
in the book there's
very much a tug of war
between what is expected of
her and what she wants to do.
And I think that we
still live in a time
where young female
identify people are forced
to make a choice between what
they want for their lives.
What is going to
make them happy.
And what is going to
make the community happy,
or their family happy.
And so that tension
is in the book.
Because I'm not really
sure I know any black women
who don't feel this
sort of tension
between you know
what is expected
of them by the community.
That's one of the things,
I mean I know I'm supposed
to be pushing my own book.
But what I love so much
about Sister Deesha's book,
it just brought it so home
to me, so vividly home to me.
>> Deesha Philyaw: Thank you.
And Honorée said it all.
You know my book
wouldn't be my book
if women weren't
grappling with that.
Because that's how so many
of us have been conditioned
that our position is to serve.
Our position is to think
about everyone else.
And then ourselves last.
That we are sacrificial.
And what I consider small
acts of self-assertion
and agency are considered
radical or rebellious
in the larger culture.
When black women
put ourselves first.
And I was reading something
before, I think it was
with [inaudible] and Oprah.
Oprah was saying something about
women putting themselves first.
And she was booed.
Even amongst ourselves we don't
always support that notion
that we should prioritize
our wants and our needs.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates.
The other thing that
struck me about both
of these books was the
deep, deep affection
for black people
and black culture.
After the past two years,
it was like did I need that.
I really needed that.
Have people told you that
or have you gotten response
from readers saying this is
what I needed at this time.
I'm wondering what
the reaction has been.
>> Deesha Philyaw: Yeah, I
mean we've been tender forever,
but I think specifically
what I've heard
from people is a tenderness,
especially since 2016.
And you know, the actual
physical violence that's been
visited upon black people
and always has been.
But we're seeing it more
broadcast around the world.
And the lack of justice.
And so people were feeling
tender at that time.
My book came out in the midst of
a pandemic, amid so much fear,
and terror, and loss, and grief.
And I have had readers say
that my book and these stories,
even though they're not all
happy stories were a bright spot
amidst a time that was
otherwise so difficult.
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: Same here.
I mean I have received
an immense outpouring
of support from black folks.
And not only black
people to say,
thank you for centering
black life.
Thank you, you know,
even as I have a lot
of difficult history
in the book.
But even though I have
that, thank you for loving
on black people and
presenting black life
in an unvarnished way.
So it's been really wonderful.
>> Karen Grigsby
Bates: Wonderful.
We're going to move onto
questions in just a minute.
Because we do have some.
But I'm wondering if you would
each complete this sentence,
if my readers get zip from
this book, I will be happy.
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers:
I would say my readers
get black love
from this book I will be happy.
>> Deesha Philyaw: If readers
get that they are deserving
of freedom from my
book I will be happy.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: I
think those messages came
through loud and clear.
I was very happy
reading them both.
Thank you again, for doing this.
And I'm going to go over here
to questions for just a minute.
This is interesting.
Someone has a question
for Honorée.
They want to know, it says
the book has multiple layers,
what was your process
in developing the
different characters
and different stories
weaving history,
lineage and fiction together?
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers:
Well, this book took nine years.
So I would love to say
that it was organized
and that I outlined it.
But instead I wrote different
sections, and then I would stop
and see how to weave
the sections together.
So yeah. I mean it's
a long process.
And I know Deesha
has some comments
about what her process is.
But yes. and dreams.
I listened a lot to my dreams
and I wrote my dreams down,
and only then would I
impose [inaudible] going in.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: Deesha,
did you have something to add.
>> Deesha Philyaw: No.
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers:
Oh, I forgot it was for me.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: Julie
wants to know from each of you,
who have you read lately.
And especially people that
we might not have heard
of that you think we need to
know about and shouldn't miss.
>> Deesha Philyaw: There
are two books forthcoming
that I am so excited about.
Danté Stewart's "Shoutin' in
The Fire: An American Epistle"
And it's a memoire in which
Danté is reconciling being
black, Christian, and American.
And the reckoning
that the church needs
to have the Christian church
around white supremacy
is long overdue.
And through his personal story,
Danté gives I think a
brilliant blueprint for this.
in a similar vein, Candace
Benbow has a fantastic book
called "Red Lip Theology."
And it has a fun subtitle.
Right, but even just that
part, "Red Lip Theology."
And she is also reconciling,
you know, her very churchy,
very Christian upbringing
with being a millennial.
And those realities.
And she does it through
the lens also of a memoir.
But she also talks
about you know similar
to things in my book.
The church's double standards.
She talks about growing
up without her father being an
active presence in her life.
There were just so many things
that brought me to tears
in that book But
she's also hilarious.
So I laughed a lot.
And I just think it's
a tremendous book
on faith and getting free.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: Honorée.
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: For me,
Farah Jasmine Griffin has a new
book that just came out called
"Read Until You Understand."
And it's part memoir
and part scholarship.
She has this really
beautiful way where she talks
about the importance of
reading in black life.
And it's really wonderful.
And then Maud Newton has
a memoir, I love history,
that's coming out called
"Ancestor Trouble."
And it's about her family and
the stories are really great,
and you know some
are really naughty.
And ruckus.
And I love gossip that goes
back to the 19th century.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: Is
this nonfiction or fiction?
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: This is nonfiction.
Both of those are nonfiction.
>> Karen Grigsby
Bates: That's going
to make Thanksgiving
interesting for her.
Assuming any of us
can get together
around the Thanksgiving table.
Might not be happening
this year either,
I don't know that's kind of sad.
At the risk of giving
you both PTSD,
because I know you
finished your books
and you feel like,
we can breathe.
I want to know what you're
thinking about working on next
or if you're working
on something next.
It's like creative minds
like yours always have
something going on.
And I'm hoping you'll talk
to us just a little
bit about it, Deesha.
>> Deesha Philyaw: Yeah, so
I've been going back and forth
about what my next
book is going to be.
And I was convinced that
it was going to be a novel
that I've been trying
to finish since 2007.
But I've finally come to terms
with the fact that it's going
to be another short
story collection.
And this time I'm
going to be focusing
on mothers and daughters.
And I'm also at the
same time working
on the television adaptation
of my book for HBO Max,
working on the pilot
with my cowriter.
And fingers crossed,
everything works out,
I'll be executive producing
it with Tessa Thompson.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
Excellent, well that's something
for us to look forward to.
Honorée what do you think?
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers:
I'm really excited
about that TV show.
I am working on an essay
collection called "Misbehaving
At The Crossroads," which
is about black women
and intersections of
feminism and family.
I am working on a book
of short stories called
"A Simple Promise Land," which
revisits some of the characters
from "Love Songs of W.B. DuBois.
And there's a third project
that I can't talk about yet,
because it's yet
to be announced.
And so hopefully that
will keep me real busy.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
That sound like it will
keep you real busy.
I hope eventually that your
book turns into an epic series.
You know sort of the
way the Thorburn's was
or something else.
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: You
know, I don't know what's going
to happen in the future, but
you know that would be good.
>> Deesha Philyaw: I'm ready
for that short story collection.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates:
Have either of you
ever been surprised,
Billy would like to know,
about how your writing
has affected a specific
individual reader.
You know has someone come up
to you at a book festival,
or written you a
letter, recognized you
at the grocery store, back in
before times when we were able
to go in there without a
mask and said, oh my God,
what's your public have to say?
>> Deesha Philyaw: I think the
most surprising response I've
gotten was at a book club event.
And there's a story
in my collection
called "Peach Cobbler."
And the mother in that
story is not the mother
that her child needs her to be.
And most people empathize
of course with the daughter,
and like what's up
with this mother.
And there was one woman
in the book club who said,
I recognize myself
in that mother.
And I realize I have to stop.
Because my daughter
needs better from me.
And I thought, if I
hear nothing else.
That means everything to me.
That meant everything.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: Wow.
Honorée, what about you?
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: There have been,
it's not even just one person.
There have been young
black men who have DM'd me,
commented on Instagram
on Twitter,
about how my book
has affected them.
And young white men don't
tend to read fiction.
They tend to like nonfiction.
And so that's been very lovely
to have you know this
response from them.
Especially because this
is a feminist novel.
So that is.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: This
is the big feminist novel.
This isn't like you
know a 50-page book.
This is about an 800-page book.
>> Honorée Fanonne Jeffers:
It's a big chubby [inaudible].
Yeah.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: So, it's
a commitment for a young guy
to sit down and delve into this.
>> Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers: Yeah, yeah.
Very much so.
Yeah.
>> Karen Grigsby Bates: Well,
I want to thank you both.
I'm just thrilled to have
been able to spend this time
with you, because your
books were set in the south
and because both of
my grandmothers were,
I brought along sweet tea
and I've been sipping
from it regularly.
But these books were real
sustenance for the soul.
And they came along at
exactly the right time
because you know locked up
after a while there's only
so much you can watch
at home and I was so,
so happy to find these books.
You all if you're out there and
you haven't found these books.
Please go find them, read them.
You will not be sorry.
I want to thank Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers and Deesha Philyaw
for their time and their spirit.
And we're out.
>> Deesha Philyaw:
Thank you, Karen.
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