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>> Sponsored by The Institute
of Museum and Library Services.
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>> Karen Yang: Okay.
Thank you, guys, all
for coming and welcome
to The National Book Festival.
I'm Karen Yang a high
schooler in New Jersey.
And we're here today
representing The Library
of Congress' teenage audience.
>> Eti Gulati: I'm Eti, a rising
senior from Houston, Texas.
And our guests today
are Yusef Salaam,
and Ibi Zoboi authors
of Punching the Air.
>> Karen Yang: So, could you
guys please introduce yourselves
and tell us about your
book, Punching the Air?
>> Ibi Zoboi: You got it Yusef?
All right.
I'll begin and then the man
of the hour I believe
can finish this off.
I am Ibi Zoboi.
And I am an author of
books for young readers.
And young readers from
age five to infinity.
But we call it picture
books, middle grade,
and young adult novels.
And I am also a mom
of three teens.
I've been writing
for a long time.
But I've been published for
about five or six years.
And Punching the Air
is my fifth book.
And it's my first
collaboration with a friend
that I met all the
way back in college.
And I'm honored to have
written this book with him.
And it's been an incredible
journey and we're still talking
about it and we will
continue to talk about it.
And Yusef will continue
to talk about it
until justice is served
all over the country
and all over the world.
That's our hope.
>> Yosef Salaam: Absolutely.
And my name is Yosef Salaam.
I am also the co-author
of Punching the Air.
You know it's definitely
a labor of love to be able
to tell a story like this.
Even though it's a
fictional story, but you know
from the perspective of what's
been happening in the world,
we realized that this could
be any child or any person
in any town USA you know.
What better person to tell this
story as well, but then you know
of me being a part of that
because of course I was run
over by the spike wheels of
justice about 32 years now.
32 plus years ago.
And you know it's my, it's my
desire in life to make sure
that we magnify the
voice of the voiceless,
the peoples who have been
pushed to the margins of life
and really echo their stories.
And Punching the Air is that is
that so to speak, that water,
that seed, that we've been using
-the water that we've been using
to water the seeds of
greatness inside every one of us
so that we can push
forward and make sure
that we finally have a
system where true justice,
true equality, true
freedom prevails.
>> Eti Gulati: I really
liked your comparison
to watering the seed.
And I was curious what a typical
writing session looked like.
Was it more structured
and outlined,
or composed of spontaneous
bursts of creativity
or more a combination of both?
>> Ibi Zoboi: So, our creative
process was very unique
in the sense that I am
helping Yusef write a story
that I didn't live.
That I did not live through.
And I watched his story on a
TV screen when I was little.
And then I watched
it again in the form
of a fictional series
through Netflix.
This was after we
started writing the book.
So, I don't know ho many
collaborations work like that.
But I had to listen
to everything
that Yusef told me
about his experience.
And it wasn't a matter
of him telling me what should
happen next in the story.
It was Yusef reflecting
back on how he felt.
What happened in a bigger
sense, why it happened,
and why we need to
write this book?
He would say things
like the full you know -
my DNA is acronym, so
he knows all three words
that DNA stands for.
So, of course I had to write a
poem called DNA and connect it
to fathers and sons because
he told me about his father
and the relationship between him
and his mother and his father
and the people in his family.
So, it was just a
lot of conversation.
What was it like for Yusef?
>> Yusef Salaam: I want to say
that it was quite
liberating you know to se
if from the inside
out is one thing.
And then to participate
and be able
to tell a story that's
full and robust.
You know I kind of
would describe us
as you know having this kind
of rapper and DJ kind of thing
where I would be the one
that would tell the story
and you would be
one that the music
of the story would
be laid out on.
And you would craft
the music and make sure
that everything was
connected and smooth.
And you know it was
a really fun process.
And it was a powerful
process as well, right?
Because one of the things
that I've been experiencing
is how do you tell this story
that has happened so long ago.
And how do use story to make
sure that you help other people
who maybe going through
similar kinds of situations grow
through them as opposed
to just go through them.
And so I want to say that it was
a, it was a breath of fresh air.
It was a necessary and
liberating process.
It was a fun process.
Every time we may have finished
a session it may have taken me
some time to get back to the
balance of where life was
at my particular
point in my life.
Because sometimes
when you go back
through those experiences you
have to relive them in a way
that could be very traumatic.
And so you kind of - because we
were, we were talking about it,
writing it out, figuring out
how it was going to all go,
I thought that it was a really
powerful magnificent process
to be able to get there, go
through it, and then grow
through it all over again
in a way now as an adult.
Where you look back
and you say wow.
I really went through
that, you know.
Even though it's not my
story per se but it is kind
of folded into my story.
And so it was, it was a
therapeutic process as well.
>> Karen Yang: Wow, I
really liked idea of just
like telling the story
as a form of therapy.
And that's just such
an interesting point.
Yusef, in various interviews
you've mentioned Nelson Mandela
and Maya Angelou as
sources of strength.
Who has inspired your creativity
or your creative process?
And Ibi, can you tell us about
your own creative inspiration?
>> Yusef Salaam: So, now
I think, I think people
who have inspired me have
been folks that we all know
about who have been
participants in the struggle,
a struggle that they
didn't want to be a part of.
But that they were
thrust into because
of the color of there skin.
Being judged by that as opposed
to the content of our character.
And so, of course it's
been you know folks
like Nelson Mandela,
Dr. Maya Angelou.
It's been folks like
John Lewis you know.
Dr. Martin Luther King,
Jr. Anyone who has stood up
and said, "I want to participate
in equality, in justice,
in freedom," has
been my inspiration.
And it's been folks as well as
like you know Bob Marley, right.
I listen to Bob Marley
as a youngster
and even though I never got
an opportunity to meet him,
to listen to the words
of Bob Marley talking
about you know emancipate
yourself from mental slavery.
None but ourselves
can free our minds.
And all the words that he
used to craft and participate
in this theater of life you
know the liberation of us
as a people, his words
still magnificent -
his words still reverberate and
are magnificent and magnifying
in life now as we live.
You know and play
their - play his works
and play other peoples
works as well.
So, it's been all of that.
It's been the kaleidoscope I
think of real life experiences,
the music of life,
the tapestry of life,
and what we imagine life to be.
All of those have
been my inspirations.
>> Ibi Zoboi: My
inspiration comes
from being an immigrant
in America.
And not always fitting into
the spaces that I occupy.
Even at home I never
felt like I could fit
in because I was
getting American ideas
from school and TV.
And my mother had cultural
values that did not fit
into what I wanted to be as a
child and a teen in America.
And in school, I couldn't do
what my other friends were doing
and because my mother and
home life were very different
from my friends home life.
So, I always felt like I
occupied this liminal space
of being from here
and not being here.
Not being from there
or anywhere.
And the way that I made space
for myself was to write stories.
And to read stories.
I created characters that
may try - what was trying
to question a world and make
sense of their surroundings.
I'm still trying to do
that even as a grown up.
I'm still tapping
into my teen self
because those were the most
difficult years for me.
And I think teenhood is when
you can have a real breakthrough
in identity.
Or you begin the process of
shedding away those layers
of who your parents
wants you, want you to be
or society wants you to be.
So, for me I am always
inspired by my own journey
and other cases like me
who don't quite fit in.
And that includes Yusef as well.
He has such a unique story
and I can relate on some level
of just being you know just
being someone who has a story
to tell, has an incredible
story to tell.
My story is not half
- his story by far.
But I am from Haiti and people
think - people have said,
and the media has said
it is the poorest country
in the western hemisphere.
I have a story to tell about
my country and what kids
like me are going - not kids.
Kids like I was when they -
when I was 16, what they're -
what I went through I want to
chare that with kids who are
in their teens and
tweens as well.
>> Eti Gulati: Yeah, I really
like the message of learning
from your own journey.
And I think that's a lesson
that a lot of youth tuning
in from The National Book
Festival can learn from.
And Yusef, that was really
cool hearing you talk about -
because I'm a fan of
Bob Marley's music.
So hearing your interpretation
about his lyrics,
I think I've never
that deep into it.
So, to - I'm definitely going
to go back and listen and kind
of look out for what
you talked about.
But moving on Amal, throughout
the book he expresses the way he
feels about [inaudible]
to objects.
He refers to stones,
bricks, buildings,
cities and then even mountains.
And the heavier references
are almost always made
after the lighter ones.
And I was wondering
if you guys could talk
about why the choice was
made and how it aligns
with the progression of events
and Amal's own internal
dilemmas?
>> Ibi Zoboi: I think because
Yusef did not really share a lot
about what he felt, I
had to use metaphor based
on the things that
he didn't say.
He said a lot.
He shared a lot.
But I had to fill in the gaps.
And I wonder if Yusef found
those metaphors accurate -
accurate to the way
that he was feeling.
>> Yusef Salaam: Absolutely.
You know it's interesting
too because it's one
of those experiences
as you tell this story
and then you get an opportunity
to see it written out on paper.
Everything fit.
Everything fit very well.
Everything was for me a
breath of fresh air you know.
To be able to kind of go
into the space of being
and to describe things in that
way is important because I think
that that also is the space that
young people get the opportunity
to begin to realize even in
telling story and being able
to stand up and be counted.
You know quite often they're -
young people are
dismissed a lot of times.
They're dismissed as being
young and not wise enough
or not knowing enough.
But then there's those of
us who are the old souls.
The people who they say
have been here before,
right who have had these
experiences that feel,
feel not necessarily brand new,
but they feel like it's part
of the tapestry of life that
has been already experienced
and existing you know.
I loved it.
I love the way that the objects
were being described you know.
And also realizing that there's
life even in these objects
that seem inanimate, right.
When you go down to
the molecular level
of things you realize
that there's movement
always happening.
Even in a stone, a brick, right.
In the air there's movement.
There's always something
going on.
And being able to be able
to feel that is important.
>> Eti Gulati: I never expected
that it would be something
that was used as a filler.
Like a gap in what you knew
about Yusef's emotions.
That was very interesting
to hear about.
And I was - this my
interpretation of it
and I was kind of wondering if
this was intentional or not.
But was this meant to
allude to the notion
that social injustice can extend
beyond psychological trauma
and maybe have like
physiological implications
with the way he physically
felt the weight?
>> Yusef Salaam: Absolutely.
[ Laughter ]
>> Ibi Zoboi: Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Yusef Salaam: The layers of
expression can't be dismissed.
And have to be understood
as part of the whole.
And I say that because you know
sometimes things happen to you
in this - you know I've
experienced this, right.
People say oh, you know
that happened so long ago,
why don't you just
get over it, you know?
You never really get
over things, right.
You find ways to deal with
them in different ways
and in different times of life.
And I think that's
part of the process.
Part of the process
of being able
to literally take what's being
given you and making lemonade
out of those lemons you know.
You still have to make
the lemonade, right.
You still got to get up.
You still have to always say
to yourself okay let
me face the day, right.
And so it's always
happening to you.
And at some point, what happens
- when a breakthrough happens is
when you realize that
everything that happened
to you actually for you.
It's part of the process
of life shaping you
to becoming the survivor
that you need to be in order
to be a light in the world, to
issue the darkness around us.
>> Karen Yang: Wow, I
really like the idea of just
like everything that happens to
you isn't purely coincidence,
but rather so intentional.
And you really have
to resilience
and really tap into that.
And overcome it, which is such
a beautiful, beautiful message.
Kind of just like putting back
to kind of Amal's experience
in the juvenile detention
center.
I noticed a lot of comparisons
to his school and such.
And I know that Punching
the Air also aims to kind
of address the school
to prison pipeline.
I wanted to kind of ask you
guys how you incorporated
and described the
school to prison pipeline
within Punching the Air?
And how did you guys
incorporate this idea
when comparing the
juvenile detention center
and Amal's school?
>> Ibi Zoboi: Well, you -
as you know what happened
to Yusef happened 30
- over 30 years ago.
And while this is
not Yusef's story,
we wanted to update 16 year old
Yusef to a 2020 version of him.
And back then, the term school
to prison pipeline
was not even a term.
It was not even an idea.
People were not making
those connections.
And now we are.
And we wanted to really show
what that looks like on the page
and in the life of this boy.
I taught in public
schools for a little bit.
My husband is a high
school teacher.
And sometimes you walk
into a high schools
and the walls are grey and bare.
It does feel kind of - it has
like a disciplinary feel to it.
In urban spaces in the
city, I don't if you -
your schools have them
or you know of schools
that do have metal detectors.
Can you imagine being 14, 15, 16
and every single morning having
to be searched in that way.
And it's as if you're walking
into the school already being
presumed to be a criminal.
And I know they say that it's
for your own protection even
if you're not guilty of
anything, you are suspicious
of your own classmates.
So, all of this went into
Amal making the connection
between prison really
feels like school.
And you know where I
got that idea from?
Yusef said one day, "you know
what, it felt like I was going
to school but I just
couldn't go home."
Remember saying that, Yusef?
And then I ran with that idea.
I was like oh, okay.
Because you're taking classes
you know you're inmates -
your fellow inmates
become your friends.
You do have recess.
You are learning things.
It's just that at the end of
the day you can't go home.
You can't even go home for
summer recess or holidays.
Your family is coming to you.
>> Yusef Salaam: You know I just
want to chime in real quick.
Because I was having
a conversation
with my mother recently
and she was telling me
about the great Pan Africanist
Elombe Brathwaite's son.
And she said, "Do you remember
when he came with me one day?"
Now mind you he might
have been 10 years old
or something like that.
Maybe, maybe less - under
ten years old at the time.
And he's on the visit.
And to Ibi's point which is
I think really important.
You know he's on the visit.
He came up to see me.
And when the prison
visit was over,
he said "Okay Yusef
come on let's go home."
And to have that shift
happen where this young boy,
this child had to quickly get an
understanding perhaps not even
at that particular point,
that no he's staying here.
He's not, he's not able to
come home with us, right.
This is, this is
an unjust situation
and we have to deal with it.
And we came to give him
support and to love him
and to appreciate
him and to tell him
that we are here
with him you know.
And so to have those kinds of
shifts happen all the time,
especially in the black
and brown communities
is unfortunate.
And then you look at
that and you realize
that in our own life
experience, right we realize
that life oftentimes isn't
reflecting the life that we need
to be pumped into
ourselves on a daily basis
so that we will know
psychosocially
that we matter, right.
Because if we don't matter to
ourselves, if we don't matter
to society, then
why are we here?
>> Ibi Zoboi: Uh-huh.
>> Karen Yang: Wow, I
find that so striking.
I think like the whole idea
of not being able to go home,
not being able to go to a safe
place where all your family is
and where you really draw a lot
of strength and resilience from
and kind of like
recharge your batteries.
And somewhere you don't need
to face the world and face
so many battles constantly
is really heartbreaking.
And something that
is so interesting
and important to
address as well.
Just kind of wondering because
after reading the book I've seen
so many comparisons.
And I just wanted to know were
there any implicit comparisons
between the juvenile
detention center and his school
that readers may - might
not have noticed the
first readthrough?
>> Ibi Zoboi: There's,
there's one called -
I forgot what the
poem is called.
But the words are in a line.
The words are - there's one word
for each line and it comes -
it's supposed to
represent a line.
And this is how Amal
walks in prison.
And this is - you have to line
up too, right in prison, Yusef?
So I.
>> Yusef Salaam: Yes.
>> Ibi Zoboi: I know we
remember that - yeah.
In kindergarten we
had to line up.
I remember having to do this
on the line in kindergarten.
And getting in trouble for
stepping out of the line.
Or turning around to
talk to your friend.
I know it's a way to
instill discipline
and to move a large you know
group from place to another.
However, I think you know Amal
in the story is remembering wow,
I had to do this, and
this was form of control.
I wonder if I personally as the
author, I wonder if there places
where you can just tell
young people to say let's go
to the next room and they could
walk quietly as little grown ups
on their own from one room to
the other, if we teach them.
And it's a way that you learn
to fall in line very early on.
So, it's, it's coming -
it's an implicit comparison
to how we are taught to
respect authority and listen
to authority and
metaphorically and figuratively
and literally fall in line
in everything that we do
when we are citizens, when
we are part of a group,
when we are in school,
when we are at work.
And I want readers
to examine that.
Wow, we always line up as
if we don't know how to get
from point A to point
B on our own.
>> Yusef Salaam: Sorry.
Just that the other piece
about the comparisons too,
is that this is one of
those books that you realize
that when you read
it the first time,
it's almost like a
really great movie, right.
When you see it again,
you realize oh,
snap I didn't see that, or
I didn't pick that part up.
And so it's always a gift
that keeps on giving, right.
Read it again and read it
again and read it again.
And they'll always be layers
of understanding that you grow
into because you kind of
already are being introduced
to it, right.
And then reintroduced to it and
then reintroduced to it again.
And so that part is
always exciting for me.
Even as I reread, right.
I reread Punching the Air and
I'm just like always like wow,
this is, this is amazing book.
>> Ibi Zoboi: We read it.
We wrote it together.
>> Yusef Salaam: I know.
>> Ibi Zoboi: And you lived it.
>> Yusef Salaam: I know.
>> Ibi Zoboi: You lived it.
Yusef, you lived it.
Yeah and there are kids who
are continually to live it -
who are living it now.
>> Yusef Salaam:
But you know for me
and this is the other part that
sometimes when I talk to people
about not necessarily
Punching the Air but my story.
You know to really be able to
tell the story oftentimes I have
to tell it kind of like on
an outer body experience
or in an outer body
experience way.
And to be able to revisit it,
especially in Punching the Air,
it's just always a pleasant
surprise that it was, it was -
that we got it right, right.
We got it right and it's
something that's out there
and I'm amazingly
proud of and happy for.
And I'm just always
smiling for it, right.
Yeah, I mean we participated
in it but I'm just
like man we got this
right you know.
This is.
>> Ibi Zoboi: Hell yeah.
>> Yusef Salaam: Little
shining out there in the world.
>> Ibi Zoboi: It's being
used in classrooms more.
Kids will be reading
it every year.
That's more important for - to
me than awards, right or being
on a best seller list.
I want it to be taught
in classrooms.
And Yusef is still
here to tell his story.
He has an autobiography behind
him called A Better Not Bitter
so teachers and young people
can read Punching the Air,
which is fictional, can
read his autobiography,
can watch the Netflix series,
can watch the Ken Burns
documentary to get a full sense
of what happened
to these young men.
And we never want to
of anyone to forget
and I'm sure the exonerated
five, doesn't want anyone
to forget that they were 14,
15, and 16 when this happened.
And these are boys your age now.
So, you have not experienced
much at all, right.
You know I know, I know
you've had some fun.
But there is so much
more that you're going
to - that's ahead of you.
And at 14, 15 your
life is cut short
because of an arbitrary
judicial system
that doesn't always
get it right.
They get it right sometimes.
But for many people especially
black and brown boys and girls
and gender nonconforming
they get it wrong.
And when you get
it wrong it is -
it has dire consequences
in the case of Yusef.
But he's still here to tell it.
And I - I'm just so happy
to be able to connect
with him to tell this story.
>> Eti Gulati: Yeah, I
definitely came across a lot
of lesson plans during
my research.
And I'm - it was
very nice to see
that this book is being
taught about in classrooms.
And that Yusef's story
won't be forgotten.
And so, on an ending note,
it was really great speaking
with you guys, Yusef and Ibi.
Do you guys have any
closing remarks to end with
or any parting messages to the
young people that are tuning
into The National Book Festival?
>> Yusef Salaam: I
think, I think I would
like for my closing remarks
to be remembered with a poem
that was given to me in
a down time in my life
when I was in Clinton.
And that poem was
called The Blank Canvas.
And I just want share that
with you in the words.
We are all born into this
world like a blank canvas.
And everyone that comes across
our path takes their brush
and leaves a mark
on our surface.
And this is how we
grow and develop.
But there comes a time that we
have to pick up our own brush
and to determine who
and what we will be.
Just another paining
or masterpiece?
I want all of us to be able
be masterpieces in the world.
To shine our lights brightly.
To turn up our voices
and to be heard.
Thank you.
>> Ibi Zoboi: Thank you.
You were wonderful.
Thank you for those
great questions.
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