>> Hi. I'm Lee Ann Potter.
I direct the Office of
Learning and Innovation
at the Library of Congress.
And it is my pleasure
to welcome all of you
to the 2020 National
Book Festival.
It is also my pleasure
to serve as Moderator
of this special conversation
entitled Parenting for Success
and to welcome our two
authors Judith Warner
and Esther Wojcicki.
Judith Warner is a writer,
reporter, mother, and the author
of a new book entitled And Then
They Stopped Talking To Me,
Making Sense of Middle School.
She wrote the 2005 New York
Times best seller Perfect
Madness, Motherhood
in the Age of Anxiety
and the New York Times
Column Domestic Disturbances.
She is currently a Senior
Fellow at the Center
for American Progress
and recently completed
a journalism fellowship
for the Women Donors Networks
Reflective Democracy Campaign.
Her last book, We've Got Issues,
Children and Parents in the Age
of Medication received
numerous awards
from mental health professional
and advocacy groups.
Welcome Judith.
>> Thanks for having me here.
>> And, Esther.
Esther Wojcicki, Woj as
her students call her,
is an educator, journalist,
mother of three daughters,
two who are Silicon Valley
CEOs and one who is a doctor,
is also the author of
the book entitled How
to Raise Successful People,
Simple Lessons for
Radical Results.
She is the Founder of
the Media Arts Program
at Palo Alto High School
where she built one
of the largest high
school journalism programs
in the nation.
She serves as Vice Chair
of Creative Commons,
she has previously worked
as a professional journalist
for multiple publications
and blogs regularly
for the Huffington Post.
Welcome Esther.
>> Thank you so much
for having me.
I look forward to this
exciting conversation.
>> Yes. I'm excited.
So I have read both
of your books.
And, I have to say,
as I was reading them,
I felt as if they were
conversing with each other.
So I was really, I think our
colleagues at the library
who put the two of you together
for this conversation
really made a great choice.
This is going to be fun.
So let's get to it.
The theme of our conversation
today is Parenting for Success.
And, I'd like to
start by asking each
of you how you define success?
And, I'm sort of asking
this in the context of,
so if all parents
really were successful,
what would our children be like?
And, would we have to wait
until they've become adults
to know whether we've
been successful or not?
So Judith, why don't
we start with you?
How do you define success?
>> Well, it's funny.
And, thinking about this
conversation beforehand,
I realized that the
words success
and successful are almost
trigger words for me.
I thought of them as negative
things for such a long time
in the context of parenting.
I mean, all of my books
pretty much have been
about the problems that
parents cause for themselves,
for their kids, for
others in the community
when they are overly
concerned with success.
But, then I thought all
parents, including me,
want their kids to succeed.
And, it's actually part of
what we have to do, you know,
as parents is prepare
them to succeed
so they can leave the nest
and go out and have lives.
So I got to thinking, you know,
I think that where I, you know,
have a problem is when the focus
is success defined by externals.
And, there are other ways
of thinking about success
that we care about a lot.
And, I was reminded of when I
first became a mother when my,
I mean literally, when
my daughters were born.
I was kind of obsessed with the
idea that I wanted desperately
for them to know that they were
loved and valued for themselves,
for who they were uniquely and
not for what they accomplished.
That was just super
important to me.
And, then as the years
went by and I, you know,
I tried to do that,
I started to worry
about whether I had
actually done them an
enormous disservice.
Because, you know, you
get to middle school age
and being authentically
yourself is a liability.
Right? And, then even more so
second semester junior year,
you know, with college on the
horizon and the preparations
that you need the
stuff, you know,
that you need in
order to get in.
I found myself one day, so
I told my older daughter,
you've got to get some
leadership stuff on your,
you know, on your application.
You've got to get involved in a,
you know, in a school activity
or a club or something
and you've got
to get some leadership skills
because they really want that.
And, she looked at me
and she said, you know,
that flies in the face
of everything you've ever
said your, my entire life.
You know, all the values
you passed on to me.
So I was, you know, so
I sort of stepped back
and I had to rethink that.
And, then I just went
back to her and said,
the important thing is being
the you that you can be.
And, of course, conveying
that well on paper
when it comes to college.
And, I think that,
that really is the best
of what I think success
is for anybody
for a parent what we want to do
for our kids is really enabling
them to be their best selves.
And, part of that means also
being attuned to and trying
to mitigate the things
that stand in their way,
especially things
that are internal
like mental health issues, ADHD
that kind of thing really trying
to help them find a way to
develop strategies to get
through whatever
impediments they find.
>> That's good.
I have a feeling that when
your daughter said that to you,
there was a part of you
that felt very successful.
>> Actually no, not in
the moment, not really.
But now, I feel pretty good.
But in the moment no.
>> That's a lot.
Esther how about you?
What does success look like?
>> So I have a somewhat
short answer to this.
That's probably because
I've been thinking
about it for a while.
And, success means, for
me, or for my children
or for my students, means
that you feel empowered
to follow your dreams.
That you have the people in
your life that support you
to become whatever it is
that you want to become
and whatever it is
you want to do.
And, that is success.
Because, some kids, their
parents want them to be doctors
and engineers and they
want to be airline pilots
or they want to be artists.
And, this definition of
success actually came
about when I was discussing
it with my former student
who wrote the introduction to my
first book called, it's about,
it's education it's
blended learning.
It's like Moonshots
in Education,
Launching Blended
Learning in the Classroom.
That's the first book.
And it was James
Franco, he's an actor.
And, he said to me that what
was the most important part
of what I did is that
I believed in him
and so he believed
in his dreams.
And, I think that
makes a big difference.
Of course, you know, in the
second half of the 12th grade,
he decided he wanted
to be an actor.
And, prior to that he wanted
to be a mathematician.
And, you can imagine how excited
his parents might have been
by his choice of what
he really wanted to do.
But, I'm telling you he, he's
a born actor as you can see
and he's done really well, so.
He helped me with
finding that definition.
So I appreciate that too.
>> Wow. Great.
That's really good.
I like that you identify that,
I like the way you said
surrounding themselves
with people who help.
That's great.
>> Right.
>> All right.
>> I mean that's the key.
>> Yeah.
>> You know?
If you have naysayers
around you or people
who are always making
you doubt yourself,
then you know you feel
pretty bad actually.
And, it's impossible
to have any grip
and to accomplish your dreams.
>> Well, well played.
So something tells me that
the thinking that the two
of you have done around success
may have certainly influenced
your decisions to
write your books.
So I'm curious.
What else motivated
you to write?
How about, Esther why
don't you start this one?
What motivated you
to write your book?
>> Well, the main thing
that motivated me was
that I was getting nonstop
questions from people.
Like what did you do
to your daughters?
What did you feed
them for breakfast?
What was going on?
How did that happen?
So I thought oh well I
don't know, you know,
let me think about what I did.
And, then that was
followed up by the parents.
It's like why is your
program so popular?
What are you doing?
I started with 19 kids in 1984.
By the time I wrote
the book I had
over 700 kids taking
this program.
And, 700, 6 that are
journalism teachers.
So I was trying to figure
out what I had done.
Because sometimes, you
know, when you do things,
you aren't aware of
what you're doing.
It's subconscious.
So I analyzed and
talked to people
and tried to figure it out.
And, so I decided I'm
going to write a book.
And, then the main thing I can
do when they ask that question,
I can just hand them the book.
That'll take care of everything.
It turns out, they wanted
even more than the book.
They wanted continued
information.
>> That's great.
>> So that's why
I wrote the book.
>> That's great.
Well it's probably fun
to hand someone a book
and say okay you need
chapter 6, you need.
Great that's great.
Judith, how about you?
What motivated you?
>> You know, I think that
my last three books were all
motivated by the same thing
which is being in a situation
that doesn't feel right to me.
That just seems sort
of off and not good.
And, wondering why everybody
else around me kind of takes it
for granted and, you know,
thinks it's okay or thinks
that it's just the way
things have to be and aren't,
and aren't questioning it.
And, wondering then, well
does it have to be this way?
Has it always been this way?
Is it this way everywhere?
And, is there actually something
that we can do about it
to make it better for everyone?
And, in the case of, you
know, the current book
on the middle school phase of
life, there was this global sort
of feeling, you know, as
the parents around me and I,
you know, as our cohort
just moved into sixth grade,
seventh grade that
this was going to suck.
This was just going
to be terrible.
It as going to be the worst
year of our kids' lives
and they were going
to be super mean
and there was nothing
we could do.
And, I just thought well wait.
Why? I mean, why does
it have to actually be?
And I couldn't just
ask the question.
There were other
phases in being a parent
where I really could ask people
basic questions about that
and have a conversation
about it.
But, it was a moment when
people were kind of locked
into their own thing,
their own unhappiness.
And, it was hard to really
have those conversations.
And, I found it hard to be
a parent of a kid that age.
Really less because of what
they were like but because
of the general atmosphere,
the general feeling
surrounding everything.
And, I couldn't find anything to
read that answered my questions.
So that led to the feeling
of well, if I'm going
to put all this time into
trying to figure it out,
I might as well write
a book about it and see
if I can feel better and
if other people can too.
>> I love that.
That's such good
advice for everybody.
When you don't find
a thought that speaks
to your need, write it yourself.
I love it.
I love it.
>> So Judith in your book, I'm
going to quote you for a minute.
In your book you mentioned
an ah ha moment that you had
when your daughters
entered seventh grade.
You wrote after all the
reporting on how different,
how scary, how boring, how
horrifying things were going
to be, once we had middle
schoolers, I discovered that,
in a lot of very basic
ways, middle schoolers were
about the same as
I'd remembered them.
I quickly learned, however,
that there was one thing,
one really big thing
that had indeed changed.
The world of middle
school parenthood.
And, that change was
dramatically for the worst.
Will you talk a bit about that?
What did you notice about
middle school parents?
>> Well, as with parents
of kids of all ages now,
for the past couple decades,
they were super present
and super enmeshed
with their kids.
And, the problem
was though that,
in the middle school phase,
that enmeshment took
a really toxic turn.
I mean it's, you know, arguably
never such a great thing,
but especially that
it was just all wrong.
It was, you know, contrary to
want the kids themselves needed
and wanted in terms of their
own ability to start to separate
and become their own people.
And, it also meant that the
parents were getting involved
in, you know, middle
school drama, quote unquote,
in ways that were
really destructive both
for themselves and for the kids.
Because often, you know,
the kids have their drama,
that happens at that age.
But they move on, you know, and
especially the need to move on.
And, if they can't move on
they need to be taught to.
But, when the parents
were witnessing everything
and feeling everything
along with their kids,
they absolutely couldn't
move on.
And, that made it that
much harder for everyone.
>> Well, you can
imagine as I read that
and reading Esther's book I
immediately thought, oh wow.
So Esther, the subtitle of
your book is Simple Lessons
for Radical Results.
And, you offer five suggestions
that might have been
really helpful
to the middle school parents
that Judith encountered.
So can you tell us a little
bit about your acronym TRICK?
What's the TRICK that
you have in mind?
>> So the TRICK is, it
stands for Trust, Respect,
Independence, Collaboration,
and Kindness.
And, so my kids also went
through middle school of course,
all kids go through
middle school.
And, one of the things you
want to do is trust them.
And, not only that, they
need to trust themselves
and their own instincts.
And, they have to have
a relationship with you
that is built on trust so they
can come home and talk to you
about what's going on.
And, a lot of kids stop talking
to their parents at that age
because their parents, as Judith
was saying, become so involved
that they try to control their
lives, the lives of the kids.
And, the kids, some
of the suggestions are just
not relevant, ridiculous.
So they block the parent
by not talking to them,
not saying what's
really going on.
And, so they're trapped
between the parent, the kids,
and their friends,
and they school.
So trust is so important.
And, helping them
believe in themselves,
respecting their ideas.
If they come up with some
ideas that seem a little wacky,
honestly, sometimes those
ideas are the best ideas.
Just because you don't like them
doesn't mean they're not right.
And, then giving
them independence.
Middle school, it's actually the
preparation for what's coming
in high school and
teenage years.
The number one drive in
teenagers is independence.
They want to be independent.
And, that is where the conflict
comes because the parents are
like you're not ready to drive.
You know? You're not ready
to make those decisions
on your own.
You're not ready to
do a lot of things.
And, so I say this
just doesn't work.
It's best to give
them some independence
to have open communication,
to collaborate with them,
that's the C part of it, and
treat them with kindness.
Kindness, oh my God,
most kids don't think
that there's any
kindness in school at all.
The schools don't
have any kindness.
You just do a poll and you
will see, see what they think.
But, the schools, the
parents, all of us, it,
kindness doesn't
cost us anything.
And, if we could just be kind to
one another and especially kind
to your kids if they make a
mistake makes a huge difference.
And, that's what I
did with my kids.
And, what was interesting
to me is Susan said to me
at one point, actually its been
recently, she said one thing
that was really unique
about you mom is
that we never hid anything.
There were no secrets.
I think that's what it takes.
>> That's great.
Now I think your Trust, Respect,
Independence, Collaboration,
and Kindness speaks
to all of us.
And, I have to say it sort of
resonated as well with something
that Judith had written
about the importance
of good relationships and a
sense of belonging and feeling
that you are competent
and skilled.
And, I think that both of
you, you sort, like I said,
your books speak to each
other really fabulous.
So Esther, chapter 7 of your
book is entitled Children Hear
What You Do Not What You Say.
And Judith, chapter 8 of your
book is entitled What We Value.
In both of these chapters,
the two of you emphasize
adults as role models.
And, you really focus
on how both parents
and other adults teach
children by their own example.
I'm curious about who
your own role models were
and what they taught you.
Maybe Judith you
could start this one.
Who were your role models
and what did they teach you?
>> You know, it's funny.
I think that my role models
were actually a number
of my high school teachers
because they valued the life
of the mind without
qualification.
And, they had built
lives around that,
that were really good lives.
And they respected
people who were smart.
And, they did treat us with
respect in the classroom.
I mean, I've come to, the sad
thing is I've come to realize,
more recently, that a lot
of other people didn't
actually feel
that in the school where I was.
And, especially girls of
color did not feel that.
And, that makes me very sad that
I was blind to that at that time
and unaware of that
difference of experience.
But, nonetheless,
at the time growing
up to me they really
were my role models
because they had developed this
life that I dreamt of having
and they did it with real grace.
And, I'm, you know, I'm not
sure there always was enormous
kindness because it was
a competitive environment
and the two tend
not to go together.
But, they certainly,
again, they did it with,
they did it with grace and
I admired them greatly.
>> Your use of the word
admiration and that's great.
Esther how about you?
Who were your role models?
>> And, so I grew up in a
situation, if you read my book
that I'm a child of
immigrants from Russia.
And, they came over to America
and they had their parenting
technique defined by Russia
and the way that
they had grown up.
So in my case, it
was a situation
where I decided I didn't want
to parent the way I had
parented, I'd been parented.
And, so I made it on
the conscious level.
And, I think that parents tend
to subconsciously parent
the way they were parented.
That's what you do,
it's just natural.
You teach the way
you were taught.
And, so I had role models in
some of my friend's parents
and I saw what they were
doing with their kids.
And, I thought that is what I
want to do when I'm a parent.
And, so I copied their ideas
which were basically to never,
no spanking, no hitting,
no ridicule.
It was just you were
to talk to your child.
And, if there were things
that they didn't do,
you tried to work it out.
But, no hitting ever.
And, so I would say that the, my
role model, I had a best friend,
she was an only child, and here
parents were my role models.
>> Did you ever tell them?
>> They yes as adults, when they
were adults I did tell them.
They were just, they
were incredible.
And, she grew up with a lot
of trust and respect and she,
you know, became quite
an amazing person.
So I did tell them that.
But, you know, it's interesting,
they didn't know it
while I was growing up.
It's just my parents
always wanted
to know why I always wanted to
spend so much time at her house.
Her parents were great.
>> That's marvelous,
I love that.
Okay. So as a parent and
as an educator myself,
I have favorite parts
of each of your books.
Esther, very early in your book,
you write that every child
has a gift and is a gift.
And, that it is our
responsibility,
as adults in their lives,
to nurture those gifts.
And, Judith, you remind us that
we have to see our children
and other people's children
as works in progress.
I could not agree
more with both of you.
Beautifully said.
I'm curious.
Do you each have favorite
parts of your own books
or big takeaways that
you'd like every reader
to not only hear but act upon?
And, Judith you want to start?
>> Sure. I mean I guess my
answers are not the same
for the two parts
of the question.
My favorite part of
the book is the chapter
on being a middle schoolers
in the late 70s or early 80s
which I think quotes for,
it's basically being an genx
middle schooler although I'm the
oldest genxer, the oldest
genxer here not the oldest one
on the planet.
I just, I just really
enjoyed writing that chapter.
I think it's fun to read.
And, I think that it says,
I've been told at least,
other people who've read it
and for whom it's
their favorite chapter,
that it really says a lot about
how the past informs the present
for us as parents and especially
as parents of middle schoolers.
The most important takeaway for
me though, is, and it's just
so heartfelt, is
take care of yourself
and especially your
own relationships,
your own mental health.
You know? Be the best you that
you can be same idea of success
in the situation of parenting.
Because, so much of
what goes wrong happens
because parents are
in the grip of anxiety
that they don't have a good
handle on or depression
that they don't have
a good handle on.
I mean I can't tell you over
the course of my reporting,
whether for this book or
for articles, whatever else,
this is what comes up.
You know? The fact that there is
a parent, and very often a dad,
who is having these
kinds of issues
that are not being
acknowledged or treated
and the whole household
is suffering for it.
You know? I think it plays out
a little differently with moms
because of the power dynamic.
But very often, you know, these
forces are acting upon us and,
as a result, we behave in ways
towards our kids that we regret.
So I know that I get
into that in the book
where I have people kind
of try to turn the mirror
on themselves rather
than vilify their kids
when they're middle schoolers,
which is something
we tend to do.
And, so I really
think that, to me,
is the most important
and helpful takeaway.
>> Very good.
And, Esther how about you?
Do you have a favorite
part or a big takeaway?
>> Well, so my favorite
part of my book is chapter 8
which is kindness, model
it, it's contagious.
And, it doesn't cost
anything for us to be kind
to each other especially
now in this pandemic.
You know, just smiling at
people and saying hello
and how are you, it makes
such a big difference.
And, so that is probably my
favorite part of the book
because I think it's relevant
to everybody no matter
where you live, no
matter what country,
no matter what color your
skin or your religion.
As far as what I think is the
most important part of the book,
there's a lot of
important parts,
but this one is chapter 4.
Don't do anything
for your children
that they can do for themselves.
We pamper our kids so much
that what happens is
they are disempowered.
The more you do for your child,
the less capable
they feel themselves.
So if they know how to
cook dinner for example,
know how to make their beds,
do their laundry, these things,
it sounds kind of
like, quote work,
but these are important
skills for life.
And, there's a course at UC
Berkeley that became a very,
a required course that was
very popular called Adulting.
They just instituted it
like a year or two ago.
And, it was a course teaching
kids how to do their laundry,
how to cook, how to take care
of themselves, how to do things
that they were never asked to do
because the parents did it all.
We have an epidemic
in this country.
And, so that's one of the most
important parts of my book.
Don't do anything
for your children
that they can do for yourselves.
>> Right. There's a
lot to empowerment.
It's very true.
This has been fabulous ladies.
Thank you both so much.
I wish you both the very best.
And, again, thanks so
much for joining us
in the National Book Festival.
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