[ Music ] >> Anne Holmes: Welcome, everyone. My name is Anne Holmes from the Library of Congress. I am here with Ishmael Beah, and we are waiting on Maaza Mengiste, who's having some technical difficulties, but hopefully she'll be here soon. Ishmael Beah is the author of Little Family. And Maaza Mengiste is the author of The Shadow King. If you'd like to see their presentation of The Festival, you can do so on the fiction stage. >> Ishmael Beah: Yeah, and that's why like the >> Anne Holmes: Welcome, Maaza. >> Maaza Mengiste: Here I am. >> Anne Holmes: Here you are. >> Maaza Mengiste: Hi. Sorry. I had some technical difficulties. >> Anne Holmes: No problem. >> Maaza Mengiste: Hi, Ishmael. It's so good to see you. >> Ishmael Beah: Hi, hi, Maaza. >> Anne Holmes: It wouldn't be a virtual event if there wasn't some sort of technical difficulty. So, welcome, Maaza and Ishmael. So, we are live. I was just telling folks to check out your most recent books. Ishmael's book is Little Family. Maaza's book is The Shadow King. If you'd like to see their presentation at The Festival, you can do so on the fiction stage. The title of their session is From the African Diaspora: Writers on Writing, moderated by Hopa Bukay [phonetic]. So, welcome, Ishmael and Maaza. It's good to have you here. >> Maaza Mengiste: It's good to be here. >> Anne Holmes: So, I will just be behind the scenes, kind of helping the chat move along, asking you both questions from the public so that you don't have to keep your eye on the questions coming in. So, I'll be your in between. And we've got about 25 minutes. So, I'm hoping we can start maybe both of you can just talk a little bit about what sparked your most recent books. So, Ishmael, if you could talk about kind of the initial spark for Little Family. Maaza, you could then talk about the spark for The Shadow King. And then we can read some audience questions. >> Ishmael Beah: All right, I want Maaza to go first, you know, I >> Maaza Mengiste: Oh, no, Ishmael. So, I will make it very short, because I know we don't have a lot of time. But the, the motivation for writing The Shadow King came from hearing stories about the Italian invasion of Ethiopia. I grew up with the stories about Ethiopia defeating Italy, you know, all the heroics, all the defiance, all these stories stayed with me as a kid, especially as a child, an immigrant coming to the United States, where people were shocked that I even had a history. And I, I clung on that. So, that really motivated, that story stayed with me, and it taught me who I am, and it taught me about the continent I came from. And it felt like a natural place to go when I was thinking about a book. But, you know, of course, the research always told me very quickly that my childhood imagining of that war was completely different from what actually happened. >> Ishmael Beah: In my, in Little Family, I started writing this book because I wanted to answer a question about what it means to be young in any given African country, particularly contemporary Africa these days. And so with that question in mind, I started observing and doing a little bit of research, and the places that I've looked on the African continent in different countries. And so I really wanted to show the remarkable intelligence and brilliance of young people on the African continent that is often not spoken of when people talk about Africa as a place generally. But also this applies to anywhere in the world. I write about people who are at the margins of society, or probably overlooked, or who are not expected to have brilliance, because, and so I wanted to infuse, show the humanity and give them agency to tell their own story. So, Little Family is about five young people who kind of do that in their own way. They want to live as freely as possible, irrespective of how people think or feel about them. So, yeah, in short, that's >> Anne Holmes: Thank you both. Thanks for, thanks for answering. So, we've got a lot of questions here already. There are some directed to each of you specifically. So, I'll start with some of our more upvoted questions. Is, Ishmael, this one's for you from Pam. Pam asks, since you have come to the United States, what has most impressed you or delighted you, and what has most disappointed or surprised you? >> Ishmael Beah: Oh, this is a very interesting question, given what's going on in the world. I think, as an immigrant, when you move to the United States, you come with expectations, particularly if you're coming from a country at the time that I left my country was broken at the time. But that's no longer the case. So, you are coming to a place where you have expectations that you are going to be able to be seen as a human being, to excel and to work hard, that American dream. But when you arrive, you are completely disappointed to realize that even within the discussion of that American dream, you are not mentioned in that discussion, you're not expected to amount to anything. So, that disappointment becomes very strong in you as soon as you arrive. You feel ordered in a lot of ways. But this is also a global thing, just about being ordered as a black person particularly, you know. And so for me I think one of the things that was very disappointing from the first day on was the fact that you come to a country like this and you realize that many people don't know anything about the rest of the world. And that was very shocking to me because I was, people have a lot of resources, and, therefore, they don't have any excuse not to know about the rest of the world. You know? So, for me, that was the thing. I mean, the only, the only thing that I will say that is good about America, which I think it has been challenged or destroyed to this very moment, is this idea that this is a place where anybody can come and be who you want to be. You know? And that has always been the reason why people want to come here. That's, that's the reason why America, it is what it is. But that idea has been shattered because a few people wanted to only be the ones who have access to that ingenuity. You know? So, anyway. >> Anne Holmes: Thank you, Ishmael. I know that was a, kind of a heavy question to start off with, so thank you. Maaza, we have a question here for you, and then we've got a question that both of you can answer. So, Amogay [phonetic] asks, there is a lot of tragedy in The Shadow King, but the characters don't feel completely tragic. How do you write tragedy without making your characters feel one dimensional? >> Maaza Mengiste: I actually think that could be a question for both of us, because I would love to hear Ishmael talk about that as well. I, you know, these are, I wanted to render characters who were human beings, which means that even within the tragedy, there is, there are conflicted, conflicting, complicated emotions. There are complex relationships that are happening between the person who is inflicting the trauma, and that person who is, you know, being enacted on. And I think that power dynamics can change, even in a situation where it feels like there's clearly one who's dominant, just a simple look, a gesture can completely upend a moment. And I wanted to play with that, because I think that even in moments when we may feel like someone has complete power over us, there are still things that we can do to surprise them, to throw them off balance, to regain a bit of dignity, a bit of power, a bit of control over ourselves. And I know that in looking at the colonial enterprise that went across Africa and, you know, through Asia, and looking at the history, I saw again and again people who should have given up, and they didn't. And I wanted to convey that, even in the most intimate or smallest moments, those people who said I might be beaten, but that doesn't mean I'm done. And so I think those traumatic situations, I wanted to give that kind of control to the characters, no matter what they were going through. >> Anne Holmes: Thank you, Maaza. So, I know you posed the question also to Ishmael. So, Ishmael, do you want to, do you want to take that as well? >> Ishmael Beah: You know, I think the only thing that I would add is that, very briefly, is that, you know, I think often when people think of a tragedy or anything that destroys what is normalized in human existence, people always go to the sort of the negative aspect of the situation as affixes posed to everything that happens is a lesson in life. Whether you choose to learn from that lesson, it's up to you. Now you can allow. And when you go out, as Maaza rightly said, the characters that we write about are people who over and over through history have been told that the humanity is not valid, but they don't carry that burden with them. But once you carry that burden, you allow the oppressor to actually have full control over you. So, they actually continue over their lives, they laugh, they love, they have families, they dance, they live, they create, they do all these things, even with the background of everything. So, when I write, I always want to show that, that life doesn't stop just because there are tragedies unfolding. Life continues. >> Anne Holmes: Thank you both. So, this is a question also for both of you from, from Christine. What are the benefits and costs of writing a memoir? That's a, that's a big question, but that's our, that's our most upvoted question right now. >> Maaza Mengiste: Maybe Ishmael, you take that one first. >> Ishmael Beah: All right, well, I mean, as a writer, I mean, specifically for me, I would say that when I want to write, I don't think I start thinking am I going to write a memo or fiction. It's the story that's most pressing to me that is pulling at me that wants to be told that no longer wants to remain within me that I write. Now, whether that turns out to be a memoir or fiction, that's the secondary part of it. But for me particularly, my first book, I wrote a memoir, because it was a time where I wanted to put a human face to an experience that most people have felt was happening somewhere different from this planet, or the people who were going through it do not have anything to give. They're only capable of violence. And I had come out of it, and I wanted to show people that that's not true. So, for me, it was important to write a memoir. It is not easy, obviously, because you invite people into your personal life when you do certain things. But for me, there's not a way I could have done that particular one. So, the benefit is really showing people the resilience of the human spirit, the strength of it, to overcome things that [inaudible]. But also more importantly to show that we are each other's keepers, that when we forget that life as we know it begins to change or collapse, that community of our humanity begin to fall apart. So, for me, that's the benefit of a memoir, so people can really see, yes, this really happens to somebody, and they're strengthened in different ways. You know? So, yeah. >> Anne Holmes: Great. And Maaza, do you want to speak to writing, to writing on fiction as well? >> Maaza Mengiste: Ah. Uh, yeah, it's, you know, there's certain things that, it's interesting because when I, when I write about migration or it's not a refugee crisis. I think it's really a humanitarian crisis. It's a crisis on the part of Europe and America. I automatically go towards nonfiction partly, I don't know why that feels like the most necessary way to do that, partly because it's a place that my imagination can't, I can't quite grasp the magnitude of what's happening to human beings who decide to leave their home, and, you know, risk everything. It's someplace that you think would, you know, it's something that fiction can really take control of. But I think the most urgent need right now is speaking to the policies that are bigoted and antihuman, humane. And I feel like nonfiction gets that out urgently with facts that have to be looked at. So, that tends to be the place I go. Yeah, I haven't done a lot of fiction on that. But there's certain things that feel like they can only be written in nonfiction, because you can't, you just can't make this stuff up. And I want to work with what's in front of me with that. >> Anne Holmes: Thanks to both of you. We have a question from Tiffany who asks, in what ways would you like to see A Long Way Gone? And I'll add A Little Family to that. And The Shadow King be used in school curriculums? >> Maaza Mengiste: Ishmael. >> Anne Holmes: You can decide who goes first. >> Ishmael Beah: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think one of, you know, the books that we, that we write, and I think any book for that matter, based on what the teacher wants to teach to their young people, it's always opening their imaginative capacity of young people to go to places they may not necessarily travel, to learn about history from another point of view, not from the dominant point of view that it's part of before. You know? And so for, I think these things are very essential, particularly nowadays in the world, for people to understand that there's a need for the completion of stories we've heard before, women through history, so I think if they're, if teachers approach it from that angle, it's going to be very beautiful. I read Maaza's, I read all of Maaza's book, but I read her latest one, The Shadow King, and one of the things that you learn about is that whenever people discuss war or any kind of liberation movement, anything, women are usually left out, as if they were not a part of [inaudible]. So, even from that point of view, to realize that history has selected a few people to be heroes and left the untold stories of so many others. So, as a teacher, you approach these books from that point of view, I think you're going to infuse your students with more curiosity, to check facts, and to listen deeper to histories that have been told that may not have been completely accurate or they were not completed in a way. So, yeah, so I think in that sense, these books makes fantastic. But also I think, Maaza's a brilliant writer, so I think her book is brilliant. You can read it just for the brilliance of it as well. You know? [ Inaudible ] >> Maaza Mengiste: Ishmael, thank you. Okay, the only thing I would say is, you know, I think the book served as a springboard to start learning about other aspects of the country or what else was happening at that time, you know, we wrote, we wrote books that are really, they're very narrow in terms of perspective. Even if we're writing about books of people, we haven't touched on everyone. And so hopefully if it's used in a curriculum, let's see, you know, the book provides an introduction to a country or to a period in history. And now let's, let's look at other things that were happening at that moment. So, you know, that's another way to use this. What else is happening? Because a novel or a memoir is a sliver of a history, of a story. And, you know, you know, in Ethiopia, for example, there are 110 million people. One person has written a book. Imagine how many other stories are out there. And so for curriculum, let's do some work, let's figure out what else we can talk about as teachers, as students, and really delve into a country. >> Anne Holmes: Thank you both for those incredible answers. We have another question here that is for both of you. Would you, would either of you consider writing in your other languages? Would writing in those languages change how you write or craft your stories? >> Maaza Mengiste: I can answer mine really, really quickly. I went to school and learned in English. So, that English is a language that is, that's mine, as much as anybody else's. So, I, it's my language. Amharic was my, was my mother tongue, but my education has been in English. So, that's the language that I, that I write in, that I've always written in. >> Ishmael Beah: You know, we've, I think we've dealt with this question over and over and over. People always ask this question about, well, why would you write in your mother tongue? The idea of writing for me is to open a small window into the realities of things people may not know about. If I were to write a book in Mende, perhaps people who can read Mende, my mother tongue, [inaudible], my grandmother included in that, included in that. So, who is going to read it really, you know? But as Maaza also said, English, the way we use English shows the ownership of the language. So, it's not a [inaudible]. The words we use, the way we describe characters. And also when we're writing, we're thinking in our mother tongue, so we're translating to English, even though it comes out into that. So, I think for me, it's not, I'm not nothing is being taken away from my mother tongue, or from my culture, just because I'm writing in English. I think I'm making that world more accessible to the world by writing that. If I wrote in Mende, it would be very few people who would read it. You know? >> Anne Holmes: Thank you both. Here's another question. This one is for Maaza. Hewotay [phonetic] says, my book club made up of five Ethiopian ladies read The Shadow King recently. What has been the feedback from the Ethiopian diaspora, especially as it relates to how you portray the emperor in the book? >> Maaza Mengiste: The feedback has been really, really positive. You know? Emperor Haile Selassie has always been, always been a controversial figure. Even though that's not the way that he wanted to be portrayed. And that's not the way that he, that's not the image that he presented, that the world knew. But I think within the borders of Ethiopia, people understood exactly the, the, the complicated and brutal leader that he was, but also the way that he represented a kind of Ethiopia that galvanized people across Africa and in America. I think those have been the discussions that have come out amongst Ethiopians that have read the book. But I think it's good to have those discussions. My rendering of Haile Selassie, which is also my rendering of Kidane, and my rendering of every single person in that book is that I wanted to imagine what a man is or was by imagining how he is in his home. So, the book begins inside the house. And it begins inside the home with Osted [phonetic], but Kidane soon comes in the house. The book, the part with Haile Selassie, are him alone in, in his room, in his private intimate space. And I wondered, what would be in that space with this man? What is a man like at home? And the one thing, and it's interesting, because people ask or talk about Haile Selassie, and no one, no one has asked me a question yet about [foreign name]. And I wanted to make her, glue her identity to him or force his identity to be connected to this daughter that he sent off to be married to a man who was at least three times her age. And he never allowed her to come back home, and she died, begging him to be allowed to return home. This was, the place that he sent her, in order to make an alliance between two feuding families, was not the best place for her. I count that abuse. But I wanted to put her into the center of this world, because I know when I was growing up, no one talked about her. I don't know if she was written in history books in Ethiopia, but I know that it took me a long time to even find a few lines about her. And I only found one photograph. And once she died, he erased her from, from history. I wanted to bring her back. And I wanted to use her to reflect how a man is both a father, but then might be the same kind of leader in his country. >> Anne Holmes: Thank you, Maaza. >> Maaza Mengiste: Thanks. >> Anne Holmes: Ishmael, this question is from Rita. Can you say more about the influence on your writing about growing up with oral storytelling? >> Ishmael Beah: Yes, that would take a very long time. You know, I grew up in a village, you know, in [inaudible]. And before I even ever went to school, I already knew structures of stories through the oral telling of stories. And my grandmother was the storyteller in the village, one of the elders, and so she always told me stories about everything. If I did something wrong, my punishment was to hear a story about how somebody did something wrong in that story, so I grew up knowing the power of story as medicine, to teach you, to introduce you to new concepts and ideas and things like that. So, yeah, so, that influence remains in my writing. So, whenever I write, I always remember what my grandmother always said, that when you write any story in the world, it is always to use or tell a story, it is always to mold humanity a little further along, to embracing the best parts of itself. So, I really love what Maaza just said about the erasure of this daughter in history and how she tried to bring that daughter back into history, into the imaginative space of people who know the history of this part of the world. You know? So, and for me, these are always important. So, I see story as medicine. So, in that, it, everything that I write or do in storytelling is always with that mindset. >> Anne Holmes: Thank you so much, Ishmael. So, we are sadly two minutes from the end of today's Q&A. That went very quickly. And we're not going to get to all of these wonderful audience questions. But I guess let's close with this question from Kelly, which is, what are you both reading right now? And has your reading or writing changed during the pandemic? Those are some big questions. Want to talk about in a couple minutes. >> Maaza Mengiste: Oh, my gosh. I don't know about you, Ishmael, but I end up at, I'm reading, I end up reading a lot to blurb. I read a lot of manuscripts. So, I'm often just, that's ow I get books now, you know, publishers will send them and ask me to do something. But the last book that I read, it's actually for an event that I will be doing, was, is by Scholastique Mukasonga, and it's called Igifu. And she's a Rwandan writer. The book is amazing. It's really short, but it's powerful and dense. And so I'm looking forward to speaking to her about that. But, yeah, I think during the pandemic, I was like everybody else. I had a really hard time concentrating for a while. It took a long time to even begin to read. And I decided that I would try to read things that would completely take my mind away off the pandemic, so I chose a suspense thriller, which was a really bad idea because it made me way too tense in the middle of everything. So, I, yeah, I don't know, I read a lot, I read a wide range of things, a lot of African literature, again, Scholastique Mukasonga is one. Ishmael, your latest book is just amazing. I'm not quite done yet. But it's just beautiful. So, I, that's what I, that's what I'm reading right now. >> Ishmael Beah: For me, you know, I think when the pandemic happened, I think one of the things, and with everything else that's going on in the world, one of the things that I always try to do in moments of crisis is to try and return to the knowledge base of my heritage. And so what I've been trying to read a lot of African thinkers and philosophers, things that I've read before [inaudible] to see if they are new and things I could learn based on what's going on in the world. So, I've been reading a lot of Steve Beakle [phonetic], a lot of [foreign names], a lot of [foreign phrase]. These are African leaders who understood the importance of blackness and the heritage that comes with it, and the consciousness that's needed to be black in this world. So, I've been returning to those to find strength and to sharpen my mind, because I think it's my most potent weapon I have against everything as it's unfolding. So, whenever things like this are happening, I go to the drawing board to try and sharpen my mind with the knowledge base that it's my heritage. So, that's what I've been doing. And before that, you know, I read Maaza's book when it came out [inaudible] the pandemic happening. [ Inaudible ] So, one of the things that I know very well about crisis, is that it always exposes people truly who they are. And you get to see who people really are. Because there's no way to hide. You are left with yourself, and eventually you will give yourself away to yourself or to somebody else if you're willing to see yourself truly. So, for me, I've just been observing that. I'm working on a few things, but nothing to do with the pandemic, because I don't think >> Maaza Mengiste: We're not ready yet. >> Ishmael Beah: Yeah, not ready yet. Yeah, I think you have to let it sit within your veins to be able to write anything interesting about it anyway. So, that's [inaudible]. >> Anne Holmes: Well, thank you both so much. Sadly, we are out of time. >> Maaza Mengiste: Thank you. >> Anne Holmes: Thank you, Ishmael and Maaza, for sharing your time with us so generously today. Everyone, we've been speaking with Ishmael Beah and Maaza Mengiste, whose latest books are Little Family and The Shadow King, respectively. You can find their presentation on the fiction stage of the National Book Festival here at nationalbookfestival.com. [ Music ]