>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. [ Silence ] >> Thomas Wiener: Good afternoon. My name is Tom Wiener. I'm the research specialist at the Veterans History Project here at the Library of Congress. Welcome to this very special event honoring the Four Chaplains Day, which recently was celebrated in this country, and we have here four other chaplains. This event also ties in with a feature on the Veterans History Project website on chaplains and their service in several different wars. I think most of you here know the Veterans History Project, but for those of you who don't, we have been for ten years collecting first hand accounts of service by men and women in the uniforms of the United States military. And, that includes every war from World War I through the current conflicts. We collect oral histories. We collect letters, diaries, documents of all kinds, including photographs and two dimensional artwork, and we house it here at the Library of Congress and we make it available to researchers. About ten percent of our collections are available on our website for examination. So without further ado, I want to introduce the members of our panel. Each of them is going to make an opening statement about their service to our country as a chaplain, and then I have some questions I want to ask them as a group that they're going to answer. And, at the end of the session I think we'll probably have time for a few questions from the audience. So, immediately on my left, and your right, is Dr. Ross Trower, who was a Rear Admiral in the United States Navy. He's now retired. He joined the service in 1945 and retired in 1983. From 1979 to 1983, Dr. Trower was the Chief of Chaplains for the United States Navy. Next to him is Linda George, who is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the U.S. Army. She was an active duty Army chaplain from 1985 to 2006. Next to Linda George is Michael McCoy, Sr., who served in the Navy and with the Marines and retired as a Lieutenant Commander. He served from 1978 to 1990, and since 1990, he's worked for the Department of Veterans Affairs and he's serving now as the Associate Director of Chaplains for the Department of Veterans Affairs and is the National President of the Military Chaplains Association. Finally, next to him, Rabbi Nathan Abramowitz. Rabbi Abramowitz served in the United States Army and retired as a First Lieutenant, and he served from 1955 to 1957. He was also Chaplain for Denver's Fitzsimmons Army Hospital from 1957 to 1960, and he became Rabbi for the Tifereth Israel Congregation here in Washington, D.C. in 1960. So, we'll start with an opening statement from each of the chaplains and we'll start with the senior among them, I think, Reverend Trower. [ Silence ] >> Rear Admiral (Retired), Reverend Ross Trower: I'm terribly grateful to have served as a chaplain. I never expected that in my life. But, I found that the first day I went to college in September of 1939, the Chicago Tribune had a large headline that said that the Nazi army had blitzkrieged into Poland. And, we all knew that our world had changed. I always wanted to be a minister. As long as I can remember, I wanted that; that's my life's work and goal. And, all during those war years I was torn between volunteering to serve or being drafted, or finishing my preparation for the ministry and if possible, becoming a chaplain. It was a struggle. I remember in Chicago that people would come up to me sometimes and say, you look healthy; why aren't you in the service? A question that would not be asked today, but was then. And, as soon as I was able to see the end of my long period of training for the ministry, I went with two of my classmates down to Navy Pier and asked about the Navy chaplaincy, because we had heard that the Navy would take young men at that point not having had parish or parochial experience, and have them come on active duty as chaplains. And that's what we did. And in 1945 in March, I came to active duty to the Chaplain's School at Williamsburg, Virginia, at the College of William and Mary, where the Chaplains Training School was then located. It was an experience the like of which I'd never had. We were a class of 35, 40 men who came from all different parts of the country and all different kinds of religious experiences. And, my first experience in being on active duty on my first assignment was in Norfolk, Virginia, where I shared a little office with two other chaplains; one Southern Baptist and one Jewish. We sat in three of the corners of that square office and when someone came in to talk to us, we generally just put our heads and our ears close together and talked to each other for privacy. But, the presence of one another in a particular office all together was my first experience in knowing what it meant to serve in an interfaith experience as a chaplain, and I never have lost that feeling. >> Thomas Wiener: All right. Linda, would you like to make an opening statement? >> Lieutenant Colonel (Retired), Reverend Linda George: Sure. Like Reverend Trower, it never occurred to me in my life that I would be joining the military. Whenever people ask me, how did that happen that I came into the Army as a chaplain, I always say, because God has a sense of humor. It never; I mean, not in my wildest imagination had it ever occurred to me. I had been ordained for several years and was working as a chaplain in a large residential facility for mentally handicapped people. And, this was in 1981 or so, and a whole lot of people kept saying to me; you should come into the National Guard, and I said, I don't want to. I meant it. And they kept pestering me and pestering me, and I kept thinking; well, maybe I'm supposed to do that. So, I checked into the literature. I didn't know anything about the military chaplaincy. But, I looked at the literature and I was absolutely intrigued with the fact that I would get to work with people from all different denominations and faith backgrounds. And so, I said; okay, I can do that once a month. About three years later, I get a call completely out of the blue from the endorsing agent for the Army, and he said; Linda, we want you to come on active duty. And I said; it's what I said. I said; I don't want to. He said; oh, we need you, we want you. He said; I'm going to call you back in a few days and we're going to talk about this some more. So, I went around to all of the people that I knew that knew me, that had some understanding of the military. I said to each one of them; I've been asked to go on active duty in the Army. Not one of them had the courage to say to me; you wouldn't be any good. They all said; you'd be great! So, I thought maybe God was trying to tell me something. So, I did. And, it was just one of the highlights of my life to get to serve the soldiers and their families. Thank you. >> Lieutenant Commander (Retired) Reverend Michael McCoy: Yes. As a young kid growing up in Augusta, Georgia, battered between [inaudible] on one side of the street, so to speak, and Jesse Norman on the other, I was a young kid on that street that felt that, at tenth grade, that God had a call on my life. And I knew that I was to be perhaps a minister of some type. My father, who was a preacher, and I knew all of the tough times and the hard times of being a minister, and the last thing; what I didn't want God to do for me. Let me be a lawyer or a doctor, but not a preacher. But, it ended up; I ended up being a minister. Got involved in a lot of different programs as a young lad, doing things, and went and finished high school, of course, and then went on to college and to grad school, working on a master's [inaudible]. But, during those periods of learning about ministry and preaching, I bounced into several people and not only was called to a church and became a civil rights leader in Augusta, Georgia, but also ended up having my tuition, trying to have a way to fund my tuition and ended up being one of the associate ministers with Martin Luther King, Sr.. And while I was there, I discovered that God was still telling me to continue. In pastoring the church in Augusta, Georgia, I discovered that this was what I was to do. I was in a ghetto church, what we would call a little church, over 113 years old at the time, but had been founded by some of the early slaves. And, as I began to minister and lead civil rights marches and work in that arena, I thought this was the only ministry that I would ever pursue, was to be a pastor. I didn't even know what a chaplain was. As a matter of fact, when I saw chaplains, I thought they were volunteer people in hospitals and various places. So, one day while I was in my church, a young lady in uniform, U.S. Army, stood up and said; why is it? She said; I have driven 50 miles to find a church to go to from the fort this morning because we don't have any African American chaplains. And I wanted to hear an African American preach the word. I didn't think a lot of it. Two days later I got a call from the U.S. Navy, saying; have you ever considered being a Navy chaplain? Now, that was really foreign. Now, if it would have been Army or maybe Air Force, I kind of could understand that, but there was no water or nothing like Navy in Augusta, Georgia. But, after a few calls came through and a little longer, I thought; well, this church that I'm pastoring is under a heavy load of debt and I had just taken them through a building fund of $90,000, and I said; God, if they can pay this off and I can see them through this that I put them into, I will listen to that call a little louder. Well, it so happened that in less than a year they paid that debt off; a poor ghetto church, of $90,000. And, I knew it was God's sign to say; you'd better look at chaplaincy. And, I did. And I don't regret at all the day that I burned the mortgage, of course, on the church, and then at the same time, that same day, got on a plane and went to Newport, Rhode Island, into chaplain school. So, I've found the Navy and the chaplaincy to be probably the best ministry and I think God put me there for a special reason because he had trained me in special ways through the years previously so I could be prepared to do what he would have me to do later in life in ministry. I look at chaplains as men and women who connect people to God. [ Silence ] >> First Lieutenant (Retired), Rabbi A. Nathan Abramowitz: I served in the U.S. Army from 1955 to 1957, and I'd like to begin by saying that I'm honored to be on this panel together with others who have served for much of their lives, I entered the U.S. Army chaplaincy right after I completed my studies at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York and was ordained as a rabbi. I had intended to spend my life in the civilian rabbinet, but my seminary felt at that time that there were many Jewish servicemen and women and they ought to have rabbis available to serve them, and therefore it would be appropriate to volunteer to go in, at least for a couple of years, and that's what I did. I served for one year in this country and one year overseas. In this country, I was at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri for a period of time. I also was sent on temporary duty to Exercise Sagebrush out of Fort Polk, Louisiana, which at that time was the largest peacetime mock war that was ever held; about 180,000 servicemen making mock war against one another for a period of a month. I then went to the Chaplain School in Fort Slocum, New York and then spent a year in Kaiserslautern, Germany. It was known at that time as the arsenal of western Europe, and I was there during the Hungarian Revolution and also during the Sinai Campaign, and people at that time were talking about that this was the introduction to World War III, and it was quite a scary time. In 1955, when I finished the seminary, I went for my physical and I was declared 1A and sent on to active duty. After I'd been on active duty in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri for about two weeks, I had a splitting headache and went to get some APC's, the military version of some aspirin. I sat there for a very long time and finally I was told that the officer in command of the hospital, a bird colonel, would like to see me. I went to see him and he wanted to know why I entered the chaplaincy and whether I intended to make it a career and so on; a lot of talk like that. I didn't quite understand what that was all about. And then, he said; well, if you're not planning to make a career of this, then this is a problem for me because I'm looking at your medical records and you were declared 1A. You passed your eye exam. The problem is that your vision is approximately 22,000 and that's not acceptable. And, in one column it says 1A; in the other column, it says 22,000. It should be 4F. So, this is fraudulent and you did not pass your exam. You can't be in the military. And, I said; well, what do we do now, sir? And he said; well, I don't know. If I countersign this and then it shows up later; deep trouble, and this is my career. If I don't countersign this, the person who examined you is in deep trouble and his career is at stake. Well, what do I do? He said; well, chaplain, tell me about what your plans are. Do you plan to make an issue of this if you don't get a good assignment? And I said, no sir; I volunteered in good faith and I intend to put my time in in good faith. And he rose from his seat and he said; can I depend on that? Would you shake hands on that? And I said, yes. And we shook hands and he said; you're in the Army now. And so, I was. Now, I'd like to say that the first thing that impressed me about the military, and that continued to impress me throughout my career, was the exemplary support by the military for the religious needs of its servicemen and women, and that anything they could do to make it possible for them to serve properly and to care for the men and women, they would do. And, I experienced this over and over again in connection with the needs of my young constituency, but in needs of the men and women throughout the military. Whether it had to do with an appropriate place for services, an appropriate place and a proper setup for teaching, whether it had to do with a case of Jewish servicemen and women to make kosher food available, to help with the observance of Jewish custom and ceremony, the Sabbath festivals and so on, the military on every level went out of its way to be helpful. And, I could give a hundred examples, but I'm just going to pick one, and that has to do with Passover. Perhaps you know that for Passover, you have to have special foods. You have to have kosher for Passover utensils, pots and pans; everything needs to be special and kosher for Passover. And we did a kosher for Passover Seder in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, and also in Kaiserslautern, Germany, and each case for many hundreds of servicemen and women. Here's the menu that we offered for those Passover Seders: gefilte fish and horseradish, matzo ball soup, chef's salad with garlic oil dressing, baked chicken with potato kugel, carrotsimmus [assumed spelling], compate [assumed spelling] and tea. Quite an achievement for Army supervision. When we were in Kaiserslautern, Germany, the matzo and the wine and much else came from New York. Kosher chicken came from Denmark. Again, nothing was too difficult, and everything was made possible by the Army. So again, that's my first point; that the enormous support that was given by the military always for the religious needs of their servicemen and women. Secondly, I'd like to make a reference to inter-religious cooperation, of which there was a tremendous amount. I never felt in any way constricted. There was always freedom of the pulpit, freedom of teaching, and much conversation back and forth, and there were interdenominational services as well, which I conducted. On one occasion in Exercise Sagebrush, when we were out in the field, I was connected with a unit that had only one chaplain, and I was it; the Jewish chaplain. And of course, there are almost no Jews in the unit; after all, we were only two percent of the U.S. population. So, there would be a handful of men and women perhaps, but that's all. So, the lieutenant colonel, who was the commanding officer of the unit, asked if I would do an interdenominational service. I said that I would, but I wondered whether that would be acceptable to the Catholic men in the unit because at that time they were not supposed to go to services that were not conducted by a Catholic priest. And, the commanding officer was Jose A. Abar [assumed spelling], Lieutenant Colonel, and he was Catholic. And he said; Chaplain, I'm going to be sitting in the front row. All of the men will be there. That was his response. Again, inter-religious cooperation always. And the last point that I'd like to make is that it was an enormous learning experience for me. It was my first full time pulpit, if you will; my first full time service after finishing the seminary. I had preached, of course, before in various places and at various times. I had conducted services. I had conducted classes. But, this was my first opportunity to be full time as a rabbi, as a chaplain. And on one occasion, at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, one of my major tasks early on was to give the character guidance lectures. Now, those of you who are familiar with character guidance lectures means you have to tell the men not to get into trouble, and a specific kind of trouble. And if they do get into that kind of trouble, they're going to get very sick and they will have a lot of problems. And so, I gave this lecture over and over again to approximately 600 servicemen at one time. After I had given the lecture a couple of times, I was going back to my officer's quarters and I passed an old master sergeant spit and polishing his boots. And I stopped and I said to him; Sergeant, were you just at my lecture? And he said; yes, sir. And I said; Sergeant, tell me about my lecture. What did you think of my lecture? And he rose and saluted and said; Sir, sergeants don't tell officers what they think. [ Laughter ] I said; Sergeant, do you follow orders? He said; yes, sir. I said; I order you to tell me what you thought of my lecture. He thought for a moment and then he said; well, Sir, it was a good lecture. You told us all the bad things that would happen to anyone who did the wrong thing. But you know, every person there thought you were talking about the guy next to him. [ Laughter ] That was one of the most important lessons I ever learned, and that is it's not enough to have the right message; it's not enough to quote the right source. What's important is to relate to the person you're talking to. One of the great lessons that I learned early on as a chaplain in the U.S. Army. >> Thomas Wiener: Thank you all for those good words and good introduction to our panel today. My first question was going to be about how you got into the service and how you became a chaplain, but I think you've all answered that. So, I want to go on to the next question that I had, which was, and Rabbi Abramowitz has alluded to this; as a chaplain, you of necessity have to serve men that are not of your faith, men and women. And also, you will have to work with chaplains of other faiths, of necessity. So, if you could each discuss that situation and maybe give us some examples of situations you were in, have been in, over your career where that happened and how you worked that out. And, we'll start with Chaplain Trower. >> Rear Admiral (Retired), Reverend Ross Trower: I think there's no more trying experience for a person who is trained in a particular religious community or tradition than to be aboard a ship that's at sea for as much as six months at a time and to realize that you are the only person aboard that ship who is formally appointed to express something about what we generally call religion. You're the only person and you have a certain professional standing. You have a certain role in the life of the ship. It's not uncommon at all that a chaplain would be the only person aboard ship for a long period of time. And, how one works that out is, it seems to me, the genius of being a chaplain. It's the kind of thing that is an art, not a science. It's the kind of thing that you learn from others who do it successfully. It's the kind of thing that teaches you something about the vastness of God. And, the broken, separated characteristics of human beings in human society. It is a federal law and a public law that states something that I think is very important to understand about chaplaincy; it applies to Navy chaplains, certainly, because it's in connection with the laws that say that a commanding officer is obligated to perform divine service. It's a general term for religious services. And, it says in a kind of particular way, on Sundays and upon other occasions when weather and conditions permit, and if there is a chaplain aboard, that chaplain may conduct divine services, and watch the language, in the manner and form of the church of which he is a member. It's a permissive kind of statement; he may perform. Each of us comes from a religious tradition which gives us a certain kind of direction about the way we do things as ministers, clergymen, priests, rabbis, imans. It's the kind of thing that says something that, this is what you do. And, we've got to carry that out in a different kind of circumstance, at sea and in many other kinds of situations where not all of the traditions and faith groups are available. So, the way we do that, it seems to me, and the way we work that out, relates to a couple of important things. The one thing I think is important is that you are seen People come to know that you're of a particular faith tradition. They may ask you about it, they may not. I remember one time a man saying to me; Chaplain, I really liked that sermon. You preach like my preacher at home. He's a Pentecostal preacher. Well, I happen to be a Lutheran and I never thought of myself quite as a Pentecostal preacher, but somehow it didn't make any difference to him. He saw in me something that he knew from his life, hopefully that was valid and true, spiritual, godly. So, that character of who you are is a very important feature and guys aboard ship, and gals, soon figure that out. In fact, so fast that it almost says to you; wow, they see right through me! And, you hope and pray always that they see right through you and they see to the Lord God Almighty. Now, we do that in different ways. I always gathered, whenever it was possible, a minion of men aboard ship to have a Jewish service. I frequently went with them. And I remember a Jewish officer who was very dear to me, a Sam Pearlman [assumed spelling], who used to introduce me to his friends and he would say; I'm the president of the congregation aboard the ship, but this is my rabbi. He understood somehow that I could be of assistance to him in that expression of his minion; his community of Jewish men. And, frequently men would come to me and say; I know you're not a priest, but I'd like to talk to you. It's the kind of thing that one learns and deals with in situations of varying kinds of circumstances, many different kinds of circumstances, and the chaplain learns to respect that, love that, cherish that, and pray that he will walk or she will walk humbly with the Lord God. [ Silence ] >> Lieutenant Colonel (Retired), Reverend Linda George: When I was serving in Fort Jackson, South Carolina; Columbia, South Carolina, which is a large facility for basic training, I was honored one year to be invited to be the guest preacher for the Easter sunrise service. Shocked, I should say; I was shocked to be invited to be the guest preacher for the Easter sunrise service, which they were busing in a few thousand basic trainees to this service. I don't know what time it started; five o'clock But, what honored me the most, which is related to this topic, is I had a dear friend who was another chaplain there at the same time, who was the same rank as I was, and he was a rabbi. Nobody expected a rabbi to get up at four o'clock in the morning and come to an Easter sunrise service. He'd never been to an Easter sunrise service before. He told me the reason he did that was because he wanted to hear me preach. [ Silence ] Things like that where you make friends with people from other faith traditions are so precious and I think absolutely foundational to those of us that felt called to military chaplaincy, because we get it, that all of us are called to serve God and all of us are called to serve God's people, and it doesn't; how we worship or where we worship or what day of the week in which we worship isn't the issue. The issue is that we all understand that we're God's children. So, some of my most precious relationships while I was in the Army were with chaplains from faith backgrounds that were quite different from my own. Christians from very conservative backgrounds who wouldn't dream of ordaining women became some of my best friends. And, Roman Catholic priests and rabbis and imans, and I am forever, forever grateful for that experience. >> Lieutenant Commander (Retired), Reverend Michael McCoy: I learned early in my Navy career a motto that the Navy considered that was very much for chaplains, I thought that really spoke volumes. The motto was cooperation without compromise, meaning basically that we will cooperate with those of other faiths, other religions, but we would not compromise our own faith and what we believe then. I also learned that God, especially as Ross talked about the ships, being out on six month deployments on ships and you're the only chaplain, you learn quickly that God is big. He was bigger than the Baptist church that I was a part of. He was bigger than the Lutheran or any of the others. Because men, at that time mostly men, were coming to you and they were asking the question, questions about life. They did not care whether or not you were Jewish, whether you were Protestant, whether you were Catholic. When the time was; when they were hurt, when there were those spiritual questions, they sought out the chaplain. The chaplaincy, something I wrote some years ago, looking at some things; the chaplaincy was built. It built a reputation as people who were concerned about the system and made valuable contributions to the health of the military. In the corps of chaplains, all was not easy, as chaplains moved from more traditional roles to a broader definition of religious ministry. There was fear of becoming social workers. In religious language, this was prophetic ministry. Chaplains were involved in critical system issues. In more recent times, chaplains have been instrumental in building international chaplain communities and advising commanders on religion in the areas of operation, in building joint war fighting teams and at senior policy levels. And just look at the places today that we have put chaplains in, and you will see that we have added value to the military mission with our presence still, and our skills that we have and the courage the chaplains are showing. Our task in and out of uniform is to build on the reputation that has come before us. In my church, the military chaplains at one time were considered someone who had left the ministry, and it took awhile for them to accept me back in. The chaplaincy is not the creation of the religious communities in the United States. It was created by commanders, especially by General George Washington. He saw the need for men and women of faith and moral virtue as essential to good order and discipline in his unique military. In the book, Washington's God, by Michael and Jane Novak, the authors note several times the importance Washington placed on chaplains. About that army, the authors say, it is one of the least celebrated of Washington's accomplishments that he forged the first national people's army in the world, whose structure and spirit had no parallel in the annals of human revolution; no model of the face of the globe. Chaplaincy was Washington's gift to the military. Our challenge then is to honor that gift and focus on the unique opportunity to minister to military forces of a democratic government. And so, we are of various backgrounds and come from various now religious groups as well as denominations. But we all feel that God is a big God and everyone we see, whether they come from a particular faith group or not; chaplains have viewed through the years and even now, those who wear uniforms as men and women of God, and they are called to serve, and that's what we're about. [ Silence ] >> First Lieutenant (Retired), Rabbi A. Nathan Abramowitz: I'd like to mention the conversations that took place that I participated in with my fellow chaplains. I was never in a location where there was more than one Jewish chaplain. So, I was the representative of the Jewish community and of the Jewish people and of the Jewish heritage and so on. And, I was surrounded by chaplains of other faiths, and we had conversations that went on and on and on. After all, I was supposed to be an expert in the Old Testament, and very often the chaplains that I spoke with, that was not their primary field. And so, that was of great importance to them and great interest to them. During the course of my service, I met servicemen who were looking at the top of my head to see if I had horns because I was Jewish. To that extent there was a lack of information. And, others wanted to know about where we perform our sacrifices today, because that's what the Bible tells us over and over again, but they hadn't been aware of where this takes place; where are the secret places where we do these sacrifices? And they were shocked to learn that we hadn't done it in 2,000 years. But of course, chaplains were far better informed than that and we had long conversations about the role of Jesus in Jewish thought and in Jewish tradition, that kind of thing. Why the Jewish tradition does not acknowledge as sacred literature the New Testament; why it only considers the Old Testament to be God's word, et cetera, et cetera. And especially during Exercise Sagebrush, when I was in a tent with a group of other chaplains and you couldn't get away from these conversations, and so they went late into the night. It was always very, very stimulating and very wonderful, and hopefully very educational in both directions. And that was something that I valued a lot and that you don't have nearly as much of, I think, in the civilian ministry where you're not in the same tent with your other religionists. I also want to mention that, at least on one important occasion, I had a relationship to a chaplain, a Jewish chaplain, who was not in the American forces. He was in the French forces. That took place when I was in Kaiserslautern, Germany and a Jewish medical officer was blessed with a Jewish male child and there needed to be a circumcision. And, there were no ritual circumcisers available. Not only they were not available in the Army, they weren't available in the local Jewish community either, which was very decimated during the war. So, there was the need to get a professional mohel; a professional Jewish circumciser. And, initially I found one in Switzerland who was willing to come in for the circumcision, but the father, who was a doctor, said; you're not going to bring in somebody from Switzerland who is going to travel over the Alps in a train all night and then the next morning, when his hand is shaking like this from the train ride, he's going to perform a circumcision. No way! Well, there were the French forces stationed in Baden-Baden, south of where we were in Kaiserslautern, and they had a French Jewish chaplain who was also a professional mohel who did circumcisions back in France. And so, we invited him and he did the circumcision, and that was quite an interesting experience, especially since he did not know one word of English. And, he didn't know Yiddish either, which was one of my native tongues. But, he knew Hebrew so we communicated in Hebrew; my Hebrew, with a somewhat American accent, and his Hebrew, with a somewhat French accent. But, we made ourselves understood. So, that was an interesting additional experience, not interfaith if you will, but with another Jewish chaplain >> Thomas Wiener: Thank you. Before we get much further into our discussion of your individual views on things and your individual experiences, I did want to bring up something that I mentioned at the top of the program; that is the Four Chaplains Day, and I think each of you probably have your own thoughts about that and I think that Chaplain Trower has very special thoughts because he brought a plaque here today, which we're going to show you in a second. And, he was honored with a Four Chaplains Award. So, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about that story about the Four Chaplains. >> Rear Admiral (Retired), Reverend Ross Trower: I'd be delighted to because I think we need to talk about the iconic significance of the Four Chaplains story. And, I'd like to tell you about two instances which documented that for me and burned that into my heart. I show you this plaque not because my name is on it, but because the name of someone else is on it. In 19, I think it's 78; I believe it's 78. I was asked to come to New York City to receive this award, along with an Army chaplain and an Air Force chaplain. The event was sponsored by a lodge or a chapter of the B'nai B'rith organization, a huge organization of Jewish people to counteract, among many, many kinds of things, antisemitism. The event was sponsored by a group of people who are in the garment industry, the textile industry, and the event was at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel in New York City, famed to name and [inaudible] and so on; [inaudible] I'm sure to all of us, in the main ballroom or the main dining room of the Waldorf-Astoria. I think there were 500 people there at least; at least that many. It was a very fancy affair, very nice affair, and it was an affair that was held by the Alexander Goode Ben Goodman Chapter of B'nai B'rith. I was pleased to receive that award; very pleased indeed to make a little statement at that dinner. But, what was significant to me was that out of all of the kinds of names among Jewish people that could have been chosen for the name of that particular chapter by these garment workers, textile people of New York City, it was Alexander Goode as the chaplain. He was one of the Four Chaplains. He was one of the Four Chaplains. I think that is a kind of an indication of the iconic significance in the United States of America and in the world of the Four Chaplains story. I was also privileged some time later in, I think probably 1983; I'm not sure of the date of that, to join a group of directors of the Foundation for the Four Chaplains, which is located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania at Temple University, to present to President Ronald Reagan an award that was significant of the Four Chaplains. It had something to do with the Four Chaplains and his place in representing and honoring that kind of inter-relational spirit. We were ushered into the Oval Office. I was with them; they asked me to go with them. We were ushered into the Oval Office. Mr. Reagan got up from his desk and he came over to say hello to us, to greet us, and he began telling the story of the Four Chaplains. Now, I'm sure the President of the United States was well briefed, but I did not have the experience of feeling that he was telling a story that was unknown. I think it is of great significance that many service chapters, many civic chapters such as Civitan and other societies, other groups in the United States of America, take February as the month to remember the story of the Four Chaplains. It's a great story. It's a story that we need to learn and imbue in our hearts and lives. That's why I brought this. [ Silence ] >> Thomas Wiener: Linda, would you like to comment about the Four Chaplains? >> Lieutenant Colonel (Retired), Reverend Linda George: It's such a humbling story that these four men on this troop ship willingly gave up their life jackets because they knew that there were a lot of people that were going to die on that ship, that were going to drown. In the image that I always hold when I think about the Four Chaplains is the description that some of the survivors, who were out in the cold waters at the time, looked up on the ship and they could see these four brave, dear men, standing together, holding hands, praying And sometimes I wonder if I had been in a situation like that, would I have the courage to do that, and honestly, I don't know. But, what I know is that those chaplains took their strength and courage from God, and that because of their selfless service, even though there were a number of people that died that night, mostly because of the frigid waters before they were rescued, the memory of those four chaplains is endeared to all of us as an indication of faith and generosity and communion among persons of different faiths. [ Silence ] >> Lieutenant Commander (Retired), Reverend Michael McCoy: Like Ross, I guess I would have mentioned that I was [inaudible] one day on a little airplane trip to Erie, Pennsylvania. And, it was in the winter, February, to also receive what they refer to as the Four Chaplains Humanitarian Award. And when I received that award, of course, the church that was holding this event under the auspices of one of the veterans service organizations, honored me by not only having me to speak, but also I remember that day where one of the sponsors was Welch's Grapes and Welch's Wine company. And, in Erie it was cold and I was wondering why they picked me for the humanitarian award, and it was a great honor in 1999. But, I always remember they said; well, we didn't know if you were going to drive or fly, so we have a sample of everything Welch's makes. This was before 9/11, thank goodness, but it was bottles of jelly, every brand, but also for the chaplain, a bottle of all of Welch's wines. And, these elderly men trying to usher this on the plane in boxes so that I can carry it back to my family. [ Laughter ] But, it was a great day in Erie, Pennsylvania. But, I always marveled the Four Chaplains, because being from a poor family and always understanding being a Christian minister, I kind of understood the meaning of sacrifice and I kind of always found it intriguing when someone would give their life for another. [ Silence ] Some might ask why the Four Chaplains have been singled out for such widespread attention when we look at February the third, when the U.S.S. Dorchester went down. These were not the only chaplains who gave their life in service for the country; in fact, it's been almost 200 chaplains that have died in various wars serving their country. And, they were not the only men, of course, in uniform to put their life in jeopardy that others might live. But, the banners of the American Armed Services are sprinkled with heroes and heroines like these men. The reason for their special honor is found in the nature, I think, of tradition. Traditions are not preserved because people retell them, but people retell them because they speak to and for something deep down in the human heart. The well known psychiatrist, Carl Jung, said it this way. It's pointed out again and again the role of heroes and legends and traditions in the character of peoples. They both reveal and shape the national image. So, the Four Chaplains became an American tradition because they embody an American ideal, set an American goal of inter-religious cooperation. Each of these men of God was loyal to his own faith, but in that loyalty, all of them at the same time and in the same place rose to the heights of unselfish sacrifice. The tradition of the Four Chaplains would never have come to birth if we thought that each gave his life jacket to a soldier of his own faith. But because, and I don't think the legend; this might be there, but I bet you that none of them asked, are you Jewish? The rabbi didn't say; I'm going to only give my life jacket to a person of that Jewish faith. Or, the Protestants, the two Protestants, and say; I'm only going to give my life jacket to someone of the Protestant faith. Neither did the Catholic say, I'm only going to give my life jacket to someone that is of the Catholic faith. This is probably the most significant example of us working together as chaplains. This is the highest form. It seems to me that such a scene is a magnificent testimony to the fatherhood of God and the ensuing brotherhood and sisterhood of all of God's children. It seems that their sacrifices in 1943 today is relevant to the charter and mission of the military in general; men and women giving their life for their friends. [ Silence ] It seems to me that in many respects we have in the military daily replications of those same functions and missions. Chaplains on a daily basis are carrying, praying, caring about and saving lives to make things different. It seems then that we too in our hearts, mind and work understand all too well the words of Winston Churchill, who said that we get in order to make a living, but that we have That's the highest form of humankind. Finally, let me just say, in our mind, because it was a dark, icy day; but in our mind, I believe in my mind is that these four chaplains, however the legend says it, that they moved and they basically said to their fellow soldier; here, take mine. Isn't that significant? Here, take mine. After they ran out of all of the life jackets, they took theirs off and said; here, take mine. And, the went down, as legend had it saying on that ship, perhaps holding hands, perhaps singing a song, perhaps praying a prayer in their own traditions, but the went down as brothers who worked at the highest level. When we talk about diversity, we talk about inter-religious connectiveness; that's the best example in American archives we have. [ Silence ] >> First Lieutenant (Retired), Rabbi A. Nathan Abramowitz: There is a Hebrew expression, [inaudible], which means the sanctification of the name of God. When one does something in life which verifies the existence of God, the existence of the spirit, the existence of honor, the existence of duty; when someone does something that sanctifies God's name in the sense that it makes an enormous contribution to the betterment of this world in which we live. And generally, the Jewish tradition prefers that we sanctify God's name through life and through the deeds that we do every day in life, rather than the deed that results in our death. We prefer to live the word of God rather than to die for the word of God. But, in this instance, these four chaplains had that opportunity to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to demonstrate the reality of God in the world and all that that represents. And, they did that and that remains a symbol for us of true dedication and of a true commitment to making this world a better place. I personally feel particularly honored and humbled to participate in this conversation that brings us closer to that event and reminds us of the significance of what those four chaplains did. >> Rear Admiral (retired), Reverend Ross Trower: If I may, Tom, I would like to add a little story that may not be known very well. It takes this story of the Four Chaplains in another, and I think meaningful direction. At the time of this event of sacrifice, as has been described so movingly, it was common to speak of the religious map of America as Protestant, Catholic and Jew. That was quite common. It was the way we spoke about religious America. In 1957, I was aboard the U.S.S. Canberra, operating off the Virginia capes. And, we found that we were to participate very quickly in a ceremony of The Selection of the Unknowns; the remains from World War II in Europe and in the Pacific. The unknowns, the remains from those two theaters, had been determined after a long period of time by the Army Graves Registration Unit so that there would be no indication that, at least at that point, who would be buried in the Tomb of the Unknown Solder in this city. There were remains brought from Europe. There were remains brought from the Cemetery in the Pacific. In addition, there were remains brought from the Korean War. Those remains were transferred to our ship and Army morticians worked very carefully to make sure that the remains would be totally unknown. They did all sorts of things below decks in secrecy that I don't really quite know about. But, they brought up onto the [inaudible] deck that we had back aft on the ship and placed on one side the remains from Europe and on the other side the remains from the Pacific. We didn't know which one was which, but in the middle there were the remains from the Korean War. And, we had a ceremony aboard ship. It was a very solemn ceremony. The ship came to a standstill at sea; at least it did not move at sea, except just with the action of the waves. And, there was the ceremony, which had a prayer. And we had a First Class Medal of Honor winner. I think his name was Shrecht [assumed spelling], a First Class Hospitalman, who took a wreath and he was instructed to place that wreath on one side or the other. And, he did so and then the remains from that place where he had placed the wreath were then transferred to a ship, a Coast Guard vessel as I recall, a cutter that came up the Potomac and brought them to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, together with the remains from the Korean War. The other remains were buried at sea, and they were buried But, this time it was not Catholic, Protestant and Jew. It was Protestant, Catholic, Jew and Orthodox. It was a great tribute to the many Orthodox people in the United States of America; the Eastern Catholic Church. And somehow, in the religious map of America, they were recognized. I think that that story needs to be told more openly and more broadly, not that it's secret at all. You can find it on websites. But, it represented a change and a shift in American religious mapping that indicated that there were a large number of Orthodox people in America that needed to be recognized. The Orthodox chaplain was a Navy chaplain. His name was Boris Neeza [assumed spelling]. He later on became, after his release from active duty in the Navy, the Archbishop of Chicago for the Orthodox Church. The Jewish chaplain, as I recall, was from the Air Force. There was an Army chaplain and there was a Navy chaplain, whose name was Chaplain Floyd Drieth [assumed spelling], who later on became the Chief of Chaplains in the Navy. It was a very significant service when we buried that other unknown at sea with the rights of four chaplains. >> Thomas Wiener: I have a lot of other questions I'd like to ask the panel, but we are running a little bit long today. So, I want to ask one last question of the panel, and that is, could you briefly talk about the difference, because you've been in the service and out of the service as a person of God, a minister, a rabbi; the differences between your experiences in uniform and out of uniform, representing. And why don't we start with Linda George on this? >> Rear Admiral (Retired), Reverend Ross Trower: Shall I begin, or? >> Thomas Wiener: We'll start with Linda. >> Rear Admiral (Retired), Reverend Ross Trower: Okay. >> Thomas Wiener: Okay? [ Silence ] >> Lieutenant Colonel (Retired), Reverend Linda George: Well, as I mentioned, when I first began as an ordained clergy person, I was working in a residential facility for mentally handicapped people. So, that was a large facility and certainly we had staff from all different religious backgrounds and from all different socio-ethnic backgrounds and so forth. And so, going into the military wasn't completely different from, say serving, pastoring in a local congregation. The clear and easy distinction is, in a local congregation you've got this homogenous congregation; people mostly from similar backgrounds and certainly similar faith practices and you don't have that if you're a military chaplain. If you're a military chaplain in charge of a worship service, you've got people from everywhere. And if you're involved in interdenominational, interfaith events, you've got people from everywhere. I think it's sad, actually, in so many civilian congregations that we are generally so much alike, because I think we miss so much by not having that diversity of background and faith. [ Silence ] >> Thomas Wiener: Chaplain McCoy? >> Lieutenant Commander (Retired), Reverend Michael McCoy: I think the difference I can see immediately is from a civilian parish church and serving in the military; I think the number one thing would be youth. And, when I first went in, it was men. So, it was in my civilian parish, of course, I had people from all walks of life. I had one gentleman that was; I think when he died, he was 116. Where I had babies that were just being born. So, I had a whole mixture of folks from various backgrounds. When I went into the Navy, I saw young men. Thank God I was at that time a little young myself. But, it was all young. It was youth. And not only were they young. >> Lieutenant Colonel (Retired), Reverend Linda George: Physically fit. >> Lieutenant Commander (Retired), Reverend Michael McCoy: And physically fit; they were physically fit and healthy. But, the challenge I found is that you find that things were, your ministry; I found the need to change many ways and outlooks in terms of sermon preparations, in terms of prayers, in terms of hymns, songs. Everything was a need to make sure that you could reach that target audience that you were dealing with. So, in terms of the challenge, which you also found that you didn't have; I didn't have a building fund. I didn't have any deacon meetings and all of that kind of stuff to worry about. I basically found myself free to do the full range of ministry; a lot of canceling, of course, but to do a fuller range of ministry. So, comparing it, I found that I was; I don't know about the other chaplains, but I felt more free to do ministry when I was a chaplain than I did as a civilian clergy. I also was able to reach people that was not just of my denomination. I was able to reach people not just of my race and people who didn't live just in my neighborhood. I was able to reach; I could preach to someone from New York on the same Sunday that I preached to someone from Georgia. I could be just as southern and just as north at the same time, and nobody really realized it. [ Laughter ] >> First Lieutenant (Retired), Rabbi A. Nathan Abramowitz: As I listen to my colleagues, it occurs to me to remember that we may come from different backgrounds, we may represent different traditions; but, you know what? It's the same story. [ Laughter ] It's the same story precisely and I have some of the same exact feelings that have already been expressed. In the case of the chaplaincy, there I was surrounded by, as has been mentioned, young men, young women of a particular age group, and so on. And, there was a certain homogeneity [assumed spelling]. One thing about them, however, was that many of them, if not all of them, were removed from family and they were singles removed from their family, their community, and they had that kind of need because of that, whereas in the civilian rabbinet, when I came to my congregation in Washington in 1960, the community consisted of people from the cradle to the grave, and many elderly in the congregation as well as children. There was the need to run a religious school. There was the need to raise the funds for the maintenance of the synagogue. When I was in the military, I was the whole Jewish community, all wrapped into myself. I was the rabbi, I was the counselor, I was everything. In the civilian rabbinet here in Washington, nobody has to come to me. They can go to 50 other rabbis. They could also go to the United Jewish Appeal if they need help. They can also go to the Jewish Social Agency. There is a whole battery of institutions and activities available to them, whereas in the military, you are the entire picture as a chaplain; certainly, as a Jewish chaplain, that was true. So, the differences are quite enormous. But again, as my colleagues have indicated, some of my experiences were just so similar to theirs. >> Thomas Wiener: Chaplain Trower? >> Rear Admiral (Retired), Reverend Ross Trower: I think there is the sociological, the demographical characteristics of our communities that have been very well expressed. I keep thinking about the sailors that are in South Pacific. You know, the show, the musical? Wouldn't you rather serve with those guys than you would? [ Laughter ] I mean, that's fun. You'd like to be up on the stage, dancing. Listen, at least I would. There's another dimension I think is very important. I served in the parish; now, I've served since I went on the retired list in the Navy and I will continue to serve as long as they want me and I can do it, by God's will and mercy. And, that is that the chaplain exercise a ministry in the public. I want to be very careful that I don't say that it becomes a watered down ministry, it becomes some kind of a smoothie kind of an operation. I don't mean that at all. I really have always asked of chaplains for whom I've had some responsibility, that they must be members of their communities. They must be active members of their communities, not strangers to them. But, there is something about being a minister in public that is quite different than being a member, being a part of a community that is member driven. All of us in congregations serve members of a community. That's quite different for the chaplain, who serves in the public. And that takes some learning for most of us, and I think chaplains do it very well. >> Thomas Wiener: Thank you for those wonderful answers. I think because we're running a little long, I don't want to do a full question and answer session. But, maybe I can take one question from the audience, if there are any questions, to ask the chaplains. And if not, I could ask one more myself or we can wrap up. Does anybody have any questions? Yes? Yes, ma'am? >> [Inaudible]. >> Thomas Wiener: Yes. The question was, have any of you participated in the Veterans History Project and told your story to be preserved here at the Library of Congress? I think I know the answer to that, but I want. [ Laughter ] Raise your hand and; yes. Yes. >> Lieutenant Commander (Retired), Reverend Michael McCoy: I have, yes. >> Thomas Wiener: Chaplain McCoy has. And we hope that we can get the other three into our archives very, very soon. Thank you very much for attending and let's all give our four chaplains a big round of applause. [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov. [ Silence ]