>> From the Library of Congress in Washington DC. [ Silence ] >> Good afternoon. >> Good afternoon. >> My name is Georgette Dorn and I'm the Chief of the Hispanic Division and I'm very pleased to welcome such a wonderful, wonderful audience many more then we usually get for a good presentation. Mexico is a very important country for the United States. We share a 3,000 mile border; it's our third largest trading partner. So the more we know about Mexico the better. I'm very pleased to introduce here Professor Andrew Chesnut who is a professor of Religious Studies at university -- Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond. He received his doctorate in History from UCLA in California, taught at the University of Houston and has been at VCU since 2008. He has written a number of books on religion in Latin America, One is Born Again in Brazil, The Pentecostal Boom and The Pathogens of Poverty. The other one is Competitive Spirits Latin America's New Religious Economy and the third of course this book that we're going to hear today is Santa Muerte. With that Professor Chesnut, I do want to ask you to turn off all your cell phones and at the end they'll be time for questions and answers and Professor Chesnut will repeat your questions because the microphone only picks up things from here. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Some people become devotees on their own initiative actively seeking out Santa Muerte upon the recommendation of friends or family members. Others receive an unexpected call or visit from the Skinny Lady, Laf Lakita which is one of her many nicknames in which she offers to solve their problems. Such as my own path to the skeleton saint -- a surprise visit in the spring of 2009. For several years I had been doing research on the Virgin of Guadalupe, Mexican's patron saint. I had decided to study her as I need completion of my second book. As a specialist in the religions of Latin America I wanted to tackle a monumental topic for my next book project. As Empress of the Americas and Queen of Mexico, the Mestiza Virgin towers over the region's religious landscape. Of course fellow researchers and devotees alike had already written many books and articles on her but I was sure there was still much to say about the world's most important avocation of the Virgin Mary. But as the semesters passed, first at the University of Houston and then at VCU my enthusiasm for the project waned. The kind of passion that had driven my previous research and writing just wasn't there and I wasn't sure why. It was in this context of research malaise in the early spring of 2009 that the boney lady La Huesuda, another common nickname appeared on my laptop. I was going to say this laptop but I don't have my laptop here. She appeared on my laptop and she summoned me to contemplate her. More specifically it was news of military assault against her on the US Mexican border that ultimately led me to replace Guadalupe with a figure, who at first glance seemed to be her antithesis, a sort of anti-virgin if you will. In late March 2009, the Mexican army demolished some 40 Santa Muerte shrines on the Mexican border with California and Texas mostly on the outskirts of Tijuana and Nuevo Laredo. Army bulldozers had leveled the very same road side altars that we had passed numerous times on our long road trips from Houston to Morelia state. capital of Michoacan and my wife's home town. I started making the 18-hour drive in 2006 and noticed that on each subsequent trip, the number of make shift road side altars on the main highway linking Nuevo Laredo and Monte Rey had multiplied. The crude concrete shrines often obscured by the SUVs and pickups of the devotees were our sign post to the return trip, letting us know that the Texas border was just half an hour or so away. What on earth had Saint Death done I wondered, to deserve such an aggressive desecration of her holy sites at the hands of the Mexican government? As images of her shrines reduced to rebel flickered across my computer screen I had an epiphany. Remember I'm a professor of Religious Studies so sometimes we have epiphanies. I had an epiphany. My flagging passion for research on Guadalupe would be replaced by a quest to understand why the Mexican government had declared Santa Muerte a virtual enemy of the state. More broadly, I would seek to discover why in less than a decade devotion to her had grown so much that her popularity now eclipses every other saint in Mexico except Guadalupe. Never one to balk at an epiphany I turned my back on the Virgin at least temporarily and decide to stare Saint Death straight in the face. My book thus is an attempt to explain why in only 10 years devotion to Santa Muerte has transformed from an occult practice unknown to most Mexicans to a burgeoning public cult that counts millions of devotees - the documentary mentioned 2 million. I think there's probably more like five or six million now that now counts millions of devotees in Mexico and here in the U.S. among its followers. Some of you who have come across the white girl La Nina Blanca on trips to Mexico well others who have encountered her as decals on cars and trucks or as votive candles in supermarkets in LA, Houston, New York and why not here in DC and other cities with large Mexican and Central American immigrant communities. In fact I found her myself recently in Adams Morgan here. But most of you I suspect are meeting the godmother yet another nickname La Madrina for the first time. I ask those of you who are already familiar with her to bear with me as I briefly introduce her to those who have not encountered Saint Death before. As her name would indicate Santa Muerte is a Mexican folk saint who personifies death. Whether as a plaster statue or on a votive candle as the ones they have up here, a gold medallion or prayer card, she is most often depicted as a female Grim Reaper wielding the same scythe and wearing a shroud similar to her male counterpart. Unlike official saints who have been canonized by the Catholic Church, folk saints are the spirits of the dead considered holy for their miracle working powers. In Mexico and Latin America in general, folk saints such as Nino Fidencio, Jesus Malverde, Mashimon and Sana Muerte, the Argentine counterpart of Santa Muerte, these folk saints command widespread devotion and are often sought out more than the official canonized saints. The great majority of folk saints unlike the official ones were born and died on Latin American soil. Nino Fidencio for example was a curandero, a folk healer in earlier 20th Mexico while Pedro Batista had a religious commune in the back lands of Brazil at the same period. Thus folk saints are united to their devotees by nationality and often by locality and social class. A Mexico city street vendor explained the appeal of Santa Muerte to her saying she understands us because she's a cavarona, she said in Spanish, like us or a battle axe I would say in English like us. In contrast Mexicans would never refer to the Virgin of Guadalupe as a cavarona, which those of you know Spanish often also means the B-word as well. Where the Skinny Lady differs from other folk saints including the skeletons saints of Argentina and Guatemala, the Guatemalan name is Ray Pasquale, is that for most devotees she is the personification of death itself and not of a deceased human being. The very name Santa Muerte says much about her identity. La Muerte means death of course in Spanish and is a feminine noun denoted by the feminine article 'la' is it is in all of the romance languages. A few casual observers of the white girl have erroneously attributed her female identity to the feminine gender of the word 'la Muerte' in Spanish. However the fact that both the Guatemalan and Argentine saints of death are male figures shows there must be other explanation for the saint's female identity. In any case she and the Argentine Sana Muerte are the only saints in the Americas that actually include the word death in their names. For devotees and nonbelievers alike it is obvious that the hollow stare of the skeleton saint is the gaze of death. No introduction to Saint Death would be complete without brief considering of one of her most unique characteristics, her gender. While folk saints abound in the Americas and other supernatural skeletons work miracles in Guatemala and Argentina, Santa Muerte stands alone as the sole female Saint of Death from Chile to Canada. Her asexual skeletal form contains no hints of femaleness. Rather it is her attire and to a lesser extent, her hair that mark the saint as female. Devotees and manufacturers of mass-produced images of the bony lady usually dressed her as a nun, the Virgin, a bride or a queen. Red and black medieval tunics, white bridal gowns and flowing bright colored satin robes normally cover her skeletal body leaving only her bony hands, feet and face exposed. [ Pause ] >> Like her male counterparts, Santa Muerte and Grey Pasquale [phonetic] from Guatemala the god mother typically sports a bald skull however following the lead of the great devotional pioneer, Enrique de Romero that's actually known as Dona Keta who is featured in the documentary many devotees have done their statuettes with brown and black wigs which will come up soon here. In fact one enterprising Santa Muertistia runs a thriving business in Mexico city where devotees bring their statuettes to be dressed and coifed so they look like the pretty girl La Nina Bonita yet another nickname but more than just a pretty girl, Santa Muerte is most importantly and most emphatically the powerful lady, La Dame Polerosa who's miracle-working skills make her the most potent of Mexican folk saints and arrival even of national patroness Guadalupe. It's precisely her reputation for being a prompt and efficacious miracle-worker that has propelled her meteoric growth since 2001. A brief profile the devotees of Saint Death will shed light on her tremendous popularity since her cult is generally informal and unorganized and only became -- only went public 10 years ago it's impossible to know exactly how many Mexicans and Mexican and Central American immigrants in the U.S. are among her devotees. The other great devotional pioneer Father David Romo, founder of the first Santa Muerte church in Mexico City told me and members of the Mexican press in separate interviews a couple of years ago -- I should mention that he's now in jail on kidnapping charges in Mexico City, he told me that some 5 million Mexicans venerate the Angel of Death. That approximately 5% of the Mexican population of one hundred million with be devotees of Saint Death doesn't seem farfetched in light of other evidence of her popularity. Sales of her paraphernalia, votive candles most importantly, figurines, prayer cards, et cetera, sales at the thousands of shops and market stalls that sell religious articles, magic portions and powders and medicinal herbs across Mexico and in many larger cities of the U.S., sales of her paraphernalia dwarf those of other saints. One shopkeeper after another told me that for the past five years or so clients have been buying more Saint Death products than anything else including San Judas Tadeo or Saint Jude who's also one of the country's most popular saints. We saw him also referenced Saint Jude, the patron of what, lost causes, right? In Morelia, my wife's home town, Gier [phonetic] Mina whose father owns three esoterica shops in town say that since 2004 the Skinny Lady has accounted for approximately half of total sales at their three stores in town. She occupied more shelf and floor space than any other saint at each of the dozens of shops and market stalls I visited in the summers of 2009 and 2010. And the street vendors who sell a colorful array of goods to motorists stuck in traffic waiting to cross the border into the U.S. offer far more figurines of Santa Muerte then any other saint even Guadalupe. Finally the monthly worship service called the Rosary Service, Rosario at Dona Keta's landmark shrine the one we saw featured in the rough and tumble of Mexico City Barrio Tepito, the monthly service on the first day of each month typically attracts 3,000 to 4,000 devotees. For the past five or six years the bony lady has been accompanying her devotees in their crossings into the United States and has established herself along the 2,000 mile long border and in cities with Mexican immigrant communities. Unsurprisingly, it's in border towns such as El Paso, Brownsville and Laredo where evidence of her cult is strongest. Her Grim-Reaper-ist image in the form of black and white decals rides on the back windows of countless pickups and SUVs announcing both the occupants' devotion and her growing presence. At the same type of religious paraphernalia shops found in Mexico, merchants along the gritty border do a brisk business selling Santa Muerte incense, lotions and above all, the votive candles. Almost all the TV news coverage of a rapidly increasing cult in this country has been provided by local stations in these border cities and as one might imagine these news reports tend to be sensationalistic, playing up Saint Death's alleged ties to drug trafficking, murder and even human sacrifice. North of the border area the Godmother hears the prayers and petitions of Mexicans and to a lesser extent, Central American immigrants who ask for the favor of getting ahead in their new land. LA, Houston, Phoenix and now DC where there are large Mexican and Central American communities are obvious places to find the powerful lady protecting her faithful. Home to the largest Mexican immigrant population in the country, LA is the American Mecca of the cult of the skeleton saint. In addition to at least two religious articles stores bearing her names Botanica Santa Muerte and Botanica de la Santa Muerte, the City of Angels offers devotees two temples where they can thank the Angel of Death for miracles granted or ask her for the favors of health, wealth and love. Casa de Oracion de la Santisima Muerte or Most Holy Death House of Prayer and Temple Santa Muerte or Temple Saint Death stand as the first two temples dedicated to her cult in this country. The latter offers masses, weddings, baptisms and rosary and healing services. The gothic-inspired Temple Santa Muerte website broadcast devotional music and even some of the masses. Houston where I lived for 11 years doesn't have any public houses of worship yet but the white sister, another nickname appears on votive candles and packages of incense among other products on hundreds of shelves at local supermarkets and religious article shops. In June 2009 as I was exiting the parking lot of Fiesta a large local supermarket chain in Houston catering to Latinos, I spotted a four-foot tall white statue of the saint riding in the bed of a late model Ford pickup. The truck's tinted rear windows also spotted a decal of Most Holy Death. Devotees in the bayou city can choose from at least three religious article shops that bare Santa Muerte's name. Beyond these big cities devotees and the curious can even find the skeleton saint in towns with relatively small Mexican and Central American immigrant communities. When I got the call to write this book, I was sure I wouldn't be able to find her in my new home town the former capital of the confederacy, RVA Richmond, Virginia which unlike Houston, LA -- I guess I can't put DC here but Houston and LA Latinos make up at least half of the population. The capital of Virginia can't even claim a population of 10% Latinos. None the less to my great surprise I found votive candles and even statues such as the red one here of the Pretty Girl in two mini marts in a part of town that isn't even predominantly Latino. The Salvadorian Clark at the grocery store catering to her piasanos or her compatriots eyed me suspiciously when I asked her about sales of Santa Muerte votive candles and statuettes, I'm thinking she's probably thinking DEA, ICE, FBI, [laughter] one of those three letter acronyms although I was with my Mexican wife so maybe that gave me somewhat of a passage. So she did answer my question and she said, "Yes, the votive candles sell very well but the statuettes a bit less because they tend to be more expensive." Across the street at Bodega Latina and we're still in Richmond VA, Bodega Latina tends to cater more to Mexicans the affable young clerk from Guadalajara didn't seem to take me for an agent of the law this time and enthusiastically reported that the votive candles sell very well there and that she actually sees more signs of devotion in Richmond then she does back in Mexico. We walked out the door and thought, "Aw, she probably hasn't been to Mexico for 10 years." But nonetheless over the past five years, the Skinny Lady has accompanied tens of thousands of her devoted followers across the border and into the big cities and smaller towns of this country wherever they try to make a new life for themselves. Santa Muerte has devoted followers from all walks of life, high school students, middle class housewives, taxi drivers, cops, politicians, drug traffickers, doctors, musicians, even lawyers count among the ranks of the faithful. Rodrigo is a successful twenty-something lawyer whom I met at Dona Keta's famous shrine in Tepito. He was there with a white candle in hand to give thanks to the white girl from freeing him from kidnappers. Also at Dona Keta's was Claudia a 33-year old accountant who became a believer in the saint's miraculous powers on the operating table of all places. Before an operation for a lung infection, Claudia's surgeon of all people, gave her a statuette of the powerful lady [laughter] and suggested that Claudio invoke her healing powers. Like so many others who come to the Tepito Shrine Claudia was there to give thanks to Santa Muerte for having being cured of an illness. Because of her association with organized crime, especially drug trafficking and kidnapping and condemnation by both Catholic and Protestant churches, more affluent believers tend to keep their devotion to the Saint of Death in private. Home altars are where the well heeled devotees prefer performing the rituals that summon the saint to act on their behalf. According to Mexican novelists, intellectual and former diplomat Homero Aridjis and the father of the documentary film maker we saw, the Angel of Death had an ample following among high ranking politicians, movie stars and drug lords back in the 1990s before he cult went public. Aridjis includes a fictionalized account of attending a bacchanalian birthday bash in 2000 with such devotees in his recent novel, La Santa Muerte. Niurka Marcos' 2004 wedding land some credence to Aridjis claims. The Cuban-born Mexican TV star had David Romo founder of the first Santa Muerte church, perform her nuptials at the exclusive -- an exclusive hacienda outside of Mexico City. Still in a country with an average educational level of eighth grade, the great majority of devotees are the taxi drivers, prostitutes, street vendors, house wives, cops and criminals drawn from Mexico's vast urban working class. Typical of most devotees is the godmother of the cult of Saint Death Done Keta. Before her historic act of displaying a life-sized statue of the Grim Reapress in front of her home on All Saints Day 2001, Dona Keta Romero supplemented the family income by selling quesadillas to neighbors and passersby. Often wearing the blue and white checkered apron that is the quasi uniform of working class women in Mexico City Dona Keta has no more than an elementary education. Her colorful blue-collar Spanish, liberally peppered with vulgarities reflects the top barrio Mexico City's infamous Tepito where drugging, kidnappers, prostitutes and contrabandistas rule the streets. Dona Keta started off her Santa Muerte Rosary Ceremony in August 20009 with a warning to the faithful to return home quickly right after the end of the ritual lest they be accosted by all the freaking thieves and thugs around. One of her seven sons did time in prison and Dona Keta attributes his early release to the divine intervention of her beautiful girl La Nina Hermosa. 19 year old Raquel an employed high school drop out from the gritty outskirts of Mexico city is another typical devotee. Looking anorexically thin when I interviewed her at Done Keta's shrine Raquel said she had become a devotee of the powerful lady [background cough] after Santa Muerte appeared in the midst of a gang fight and pulled Raquel back a few steps at the very moment when a switch blade was about to be thrust into her stomach. Raquel like so many other believers was at the famous Tepito shrine that day with a gold Santa Muerte votive candle. Before talking to me about her devotion she placed the lighted candle at the base of the later alongside scores of others and asked the life-sized skeleton saint standing behind the protective glass for a miracle of employment. Okay, I think I'll stop there and would be happy to take any questions, comments you might have including on what we saw in the documentary. >> This refers to one scene in the documentary where one of the devotees seems to be a ritually going for paper smoke, tobacco smoke. >> Yeah probably Marijuana smoke but yeah. >> But yeah can you comment on the historical context since you know a lot of pre-Columbia and post-Columbia [inaudible] America using tobacco. >> Exactly that's -- that's where it goes to as you yourself know there are millennia-old associations of tobacco with the curing healing rituals throughout various indigenous groups throughout the Americas. So despite its demonization as a carcinogen in these days the role of tobacco and healing ceremonies goes way back so that... >> In your work have you traced in any particular ways? >> Basically what I said - I'm not so much concerned but yeah that's the obvious association and that would be an example of syncretism, of incorporation [background noise] of indigenous elements into the cult of Santa Muerte but yeah the use of tobacco and healing rituals is ubiquitous. >> Do you see that in [inaudible] as well? >> Less so with canonized saints but yeah almost uniformly with folk saints, yeah. >> Okay, would you say some more about the view of the government and the [inaudible] in terms of the destruction of the shrine. >> Right, I try to leave that as a teaser since that's kind of played out in my book, right. She basically was fingered as an enemy, as spiritual enemy number one of the Mexican government because of her association as what they call in Mexico a narco saint. She has been discovered emblazoned on the pistols; her altars have been found at the arrest and apprehension of many high level narcos from the various cartels in Mexico thus the current administration of Filipe Calderon is rather close to the Catholic Church in Mexico. And so it's mostly for her role as a narco saint -- is why they moved against her shrines and altars which actually does violate the Mexican constitution guaranteeing freedom of worship but nonetheless, who was there to stop it, yes. >> Just following up on narco saint. I've heard somewhere that there's the display of Santa Muerte or Jesus Malverde constitutes a kind of probable cause for law enforcement. Is that so? >> Yeah, it appears increasingly so in -- especially in Texas that is probable cause for search and seizure. You're exactly right and there's a number of law enforcement officials particularly in places like El Paso that will actually give seminars to their fellow law enforcement agents on narco saints and I guess today Santa Muerte [background noise] would be the leading narco saint but there's actually some canonized saints who do double duty as narco saints and do I have them here? [Background laughter] Saint Jude, Saint Jude, patronized, bonified Roman Catholic saint also wears a hat as a narco saint and has often discovered along with Santa Muerte as well. So it's not only the folk saints who can function as narco saints but some -- in fact I just saw the news. Two days ago, about an entire cache of weapons being discovered in -- in Ciudad Juarez and some of the guns had emblazoned on -- her of course, Santa Muerte but the Virgin of Guadalupe as well. So for some, even the patroness of Mexico, the Virgin Guadalupe herself can -- can function as a protector of their illicit operations, yeah, but good observation. I would say lastly that the original narco saint was the one you mentioned, Jesus Malverde who has now been eclipsed by Santa Muerte and I think Jesus Malverde has really been reduced to his original home state which is [static] [inaudible] and probably still associated with the most-powerful of all drug cartels, the Sinaloa Cartel. But Santa Muerte has long ago eclipsed him. Yes? >> Maybe to emphasize the more benevolent side, you might talk about the Red Candle, the White Candle, the Gold Candle, the... >> Yeah for those of you who haven't actually seen my book, I organized the book by the different colored votive candle. Each color symbolizes a specific important theme in the cult. For example, do I have green? Yeah, green here is for those -- for law and justice. So that might be particularly popular among prisoners who're looking for a speedy release, who are looking for an honest lawyer. The number one selling candle is the Red Votive Candle. Red, not symbolizing blood, but love and passion and so lost in the media reports over on both sides of the border, probably the number one thing that she does especially for Mexican woman is love-magic. She goes after Mexican men behaved -- behaving badly. She ties them up, she binds them [static] and she brings them back humbled at the aggrieved wife's or girlfriend's feet. So yeah, the point of my book is yes, one of her roles is narco saint but she's a saint of many colors. She's a rainbow saint. So she heals, she [static] gets people out of prison. She protects people. She's a multi-tasker in kind of the spirit of the times, a [inaudible]. So yes, there is the Black Candle associated with nefarious deeds, but that's just one of her roles. [ Inaudible question ] >> Yeah and -- and she's the perpetual bride, she never seems to [laughter] to find the right groom, right? So she's -- she's the bride in waiting. And yes, yes this is -- this is a common style of dressing her. And also as the Virgin, the main one here in the Tepito Shrine is often dressed as the Virgin and so there's a -- there's a really -- despite the first glance, I thought, "Oh antithesis of Guadalupe for many women in particular." They really approach her and address her as if she were the Virgin. >> Do you see any correlation between the growth of this cult and the environment of violence that's playing out...? >> Excellent question, do I see any relation -- correlation between the expansion of the cult and the killing fields of Mexico? Yes and I flesh that out in my book, definitely. Most of you are probably aware that in the last five years or so, Mexico has let's see where we're [inaudible] 40,000 deaths, number 10 in homicide lists in the entire world. So yeah, I think there's a special appeal of this Saint of Death to those Mexicans in particular who feel like death could be eminent for whatever reason in their daily lives, Mexicans who live on the street, Mexicans who are involved in the drug industry but also law enforcement agents as well. She's a major -- she's a major saint, very popular figure among those on the front lines particularly municipal police officers in Mexico City as well. So yeah, there's a tremendous correlation in the growth of her cult and [static] Mexico becoming the killing fields that they have been in the last five years or so. Yes? [ Inaudible question ] >> Right, you're referring to kind of more ethical requirements of -- yeah, I would say -- I would say again, this is so new. Most Mexicans had no idea -- in fact, I was the one -- their gringo son-in-law who introduced her to my Mexican parents-in-law. They're 80 years old and never heard of her. So Mexicans are just realizing who she is. I would say yes, there are a fair amount of devotees at this point since it is unorganized and informal who really approach her more as a Christian figure, especially women who tend to see her as a virginal figure. So I would think that for them, there might be some of the same type of ethical parameters that you'd find in your veneration of a -- of a canonized Catholic saint. But at this point there's such a variety and diversity because there's others who ask her for harm as well. I can ask her to do some pretty nefarious deeds and there's nobody to stop me from doing that, right, since we have a few churches but there's no high-priest telling me I can't do things like that. In fact, I would say that that's also one of her appeals that you can ask her for things that you might not ask of a canonized saint although again, we're seeing Guadalupe on pistols as well, so... >> [Inaudible] >> A couple more? [ Inaudible question ] >> That's -- that's an excellent question -- how much intermingling is there between the cult of Saint Death and Catholicism? I would have to say that this only exists because of Catholicism. In fact, you could see it as an extreme aberrant form of folk Catholicism. She basically -- most Mexicans in the cult will tell you this all goes back to the Aztecs. But I traced this back to -- to Spain. This is basically the Grim Reaper who was actually a female figure in Spain called La Parka, the Grim Reapress. The Spanish church, the Catholic Church brings her over, the Grim Reaper as a figure of evangelization for the indigenous people and they end up kind of making her a saint in their own right kind of filtering and interpreting Christianity through their own land. So I would really make the argument, no Catholicism -- no cult of Santa Muerte. In fact, it's hard to imagine there's something like this arising in a predominantly Protestant context. >> [Inaudible question] >> It goes back -- it plays on sacred relics which are familiar to all Mexicans. I'm not saying there aren't indigenous pre-Columbian elements, there definitely are. But if I would have to weigh on which is more important, I'm going back to Spain. I mean this is the female Grim Reaper who [background noise] worked into something different on Mexican soil. Maybe someone else who hasn't asked in the back? [ Inaudible question ] >> Okay, I'll -- yeah I didn't -- not -- not only do they not appreciate the Roman Catholic Church in Mexico is actually condemned it as satanic. The interesting thing is of the scores of devotees I interviewed, only one -- this girl who was saved by this switchblade thrust into her stomach -- she was the only one who said, "My religion is Santa Muerte." Because I would say, "Is this your religion?" and all the others would say, "No I'm Catholic. I'm Catholic." So -- but yeah, the Roman Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations in Mexico has denounced this as -- as satanic. Many followers of Saint Death don't know that or don't care because many of them are nominal or cultural Catholics who maybe haven't set foot in a Catholic Church or gone to a Mass for years. And that would actually be the majority of the Mexican population despite the fact that it's the second largest Catholic population on earth, second only to Brazil. Most people -- most Mexicans are cultural Catholics, really not institutionally practicing their faith. What is the Catholic Church done? Various pronouncements and unlike the U.S., I'm still waiting for bishops here in DC to make a pronouncement. I think they probably will soon since their cult is expanding. And I think it was probably in part because of pressure of the Catholic Church on the border why the Mexican army bulldozers moved against her in April -- in March of 2009. [ Inaudible question ] >> Yeah, excellent question -- how would we compare this to the Afro-Brazilian religion of Candomble. Well I like -- I like that you're going down to Brazil but I'm going to bring it closer to home to Cuba -- and so one of the big influences here among the more elite or the kind of organic intellectuals of the cult is Cuba's religion which is Santeria. Exactly -- and indeed, Dona Keta, the devotional pioneer of the cult has a whole separate room in her house off limits to most devotees and occasional visitors filled with Santeria and over time, my wife and I have observed that in the main altar area of the life-sized Santa Muerte, there's been more and more Orishas or deities of Santeria there. So yes, there's a definite cross-breeding. In fact one of the big candles today is the seven-color candle, the Siete Potencia or Seven Powers which was imported directly from Cuba. Why Santeria? Well a fair amount of Cubans who didn't flee Miami in the early '60s actually went to Mexico City. So yes, there is influence but it tends to be stronger among the upper echelons of the cult and less so among the average devotees. Excellent question. Maybe one or two more? Yes? >> Does she have a day and if she does, what do people do? >> Excellent question. At this point, she does not have a day and this is why her sales in part are so fantastic because as the shopkeepers in Mexico explained to me, all canonized saints have one day, right? And so they're sales are just a couple of days preceding their saint day up maybe two or three days a year. Whereas Santa Muerte doesn't have a fixed date and so her sales are 24-7 year round. There might be a day in the future and that would be the founding of the Mexico City Shrine of Dona Keta and that would be October 31st actually because she set out the -- her statue as Halloween became All Saints Day, October 31st and November 1st. So that might become the fixed day in the future but no, at this point, each of the major shrines has their own specific annual day that they celebrate. Yes? >> [Inaudible question] >> Yeah I always get that question and it's a -- it's a great question. The obvious question, is Santa Muerte connected to Day of the Dead? And I would say to a certain extent within certain parameters, yes but the difference is Day of the Dead is about commemorating deceased loved ones, right? Whereas this is actually about venerating a -- a figure who's taken to be holy and who works miracles -- I mean that's the most important thing that she -- she grants and works miracles. So but yes, the fact that Mexicans grow up with -- with ubiquitous figures of skeletons, not only on Days of the Dead, but we have the iconic Mexican figure of -- of Catrina Calavera who is depicted as a high-society skeleton who all Mexicans grow up with. And so you saw the boy, the little boy at the shrine here really wasn't -- he was curious but he wasn't shocked as I imagine many American kids [static] the same age might be when they're confronted with a life-sized skeleton with jet-black hair. So yes, yes there's association but within limits. Thank you so much. It's so good to see you here and I really appreciate your -- your thoughtful questions. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress.