>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, DC.
[ Silence ]
>> Good afternoon everyone, my name is Peggy Pearlstein and I'm head
of the Hebraic section here in the African
and Middle Eastern division of the Library.
Welcome to today's program with Dr. Ronit Seter who will be talking
about in the classical mode, Israeli women composers, a program in honor
of Women's History Month, which occurs during March.
A special thank you to Dr. Anne Brenner,
who made all of the arrangements,
for today's program, thank you, Anne.
Dr. Seter presented previously here in the division in the fall of 2009
when she spoke about the topic is Israeli Classical Music Jewish.
As you can surmise, Dr. Seter studies 20th Century music
and specializes in Israeli art music.
She received her BA and MA in Musicology from Barilon University
in Israel and her Ph.D. from Cornell University in 2004.
She has served on the faculty of the Peabody Conservatory in Baltimore,
the George Washington Department of Music, the Department of Musicology
at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and the Department
of Performing Arts at American University.
She's the chapter representative
of the American Musicological Society for the Washington area.
Dr. Seter has written for the online Grove Dictionary of Music,
for Tempo magazine, Jewish Women;
A comprehensive Historical Encyclopedia
and the Encyclopedia Judaica among other publications.
She has presented papers at the American Musicological Society,
the World Congress of Jewish Studies,
the American Jewish Studies Association,
and other organizations.
I thank her once again for contributing to the Library
of Congress books and music by and about Israeli composers.
This event is being videotaped for subsequent broadcast
on the Library's website and other media.
The audience is encouraged to offer comments
and raise questions during the formal question and answer period,
but please be advised that your voice and image may be recorded
and later broadcast as part of this event.
By participating in the question and answer period, you are consenting
to the Library's possible reproduction
and transmission of your remarks.   And now Dr. Seter.

[ Applause ]   >> Thank you so much, Peggy.

That was wonderful.   I hope it works.

Thank you all for coming here and [background noise] thank you
for joining us for our presentation today.
I guess with most of these mid-day events here
at the Hebraic Sections revolve around letters, perhaps a bit less
about the Arts, am I right?
And this one is one of the handfuls about music, right;
and perhaps the first about women composers?
So it's -- it's all new.
My presentation would be just a modest contribution
to a field that is only emerging.
In seven areas of classical music world,
female musicians gained prominence only recently.
The Vienna Philharmonic, for example, was one of the latest
to accept female players until 1997 -- 1997, only 15 years ago.
There were no female performers employed full-time there.
Today, it seems that all orchestras are open to female instrumentalists,
but not really to female conductors.
The Baltimore Symphony Orchestra made musical history
in September 2007 when Myelstra Marie Alsop lead her inaugural
concerts making her the first woman
to head a major American orchestra four years ago.
We still have a way to go.
The field of study of women musicians
and especially women composers is emerging.
Only in the last few decades we have learned
about classical music by women composers.
And just think about it, if we can have --
just make a mental list of composers and women composers.
Think about, you know, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Debussy,
Mendelssohn and women -- can you come up with some names?

It's a bit difficult.
I think to come up with more than two names is --
many of us cannot do that.
So just to mention briefly, Hildegard of Bingen,
1,000 years ago, Clara Beth Schumann,
Fanny Handel Mendelssohn -- Fanny Hensel Mendelssohn, Amy Beach,
Ruth Crawford Seeger, Sophia Gubaidulina, Chaya Czernowin just
to mention a few names out of thousands of women composers


I hope that after this presentation, we will know just a bit more.
I'm a musicologist.   I'm a writer.

If writing on a living composer is difficult,
writing about a female living composer is yet more intriguing
and I will try to explain just that point now.
If we would not -- if we do not refer to the composer's gender
as in, okay, that doesn't matter -- male or female.
Let's talk about the music itself.
Well then, we are suppressing the most profound revolution
in the history of music, the feminist revolution among composers.
We should not allow any music historian to ignore it,
although many did and still do.
In the books by our best music historians of the 20th music;
Robert Morgan, Glen Lakes, Brian Simms, Richard Taruskin, Alex Ross,
the discussion of women -- of music by women is often negligible.
We just must admit that, we don't have enough massive research
about it.
But if we don't, however, discuss composers as female we often
in [inaudible] forms and that might fall into essentialist arguments.

And the composers actually despise it
and I can give you one small example.
Exactly 30 years ago, 1982, composer Shulamit Ran,
one of my protagonists here wrote vividly about the same thing
in the Journal perspective of new music.
Let's see if it works.
I really have to -- yeah -- Shulamit Ran, she was asked very often
at the time, she was really unique, 30 years ago, "Ms. Ran,
has being a woman composer been a problem for you?"
She replied with chutzpah [inaudible], "No is it for you?"
And this almost always was the first thing
to interviewers to [inaudible].
And she went on to explain back in 1982.
I asked myself, "Why after all of these years
of forced discrimination would we choose to call attention
to ourselves as a ghetto, putting the barbed wire around ourselves
with our own hands whose aim we have fastly served, ours, music's?
Is being labeled women composers what we now want?"

And labels, so -- and labels we mustn't forget,
are very important in our society.
How else would we be classified, categorized,
and conveniently filed away?
Yet why isn't Beethoven labeled a man composer?
And are we going to accept one set of standards for the Beethoven's
and another set for us as in,
"She's one of the better women composers around.

" [Background noise] I talked to Shulamit Ran this past Saturday.
She still has a similar view for the most part,
but she was far more open to discussing.
She was proud as an artistic director of Contempo,
a new music group at the University of Chicago
that not only many women composers are regularly included
in her programs, but that the only concert in the recent years devoted
to only one composer, usually the concerts include several composers,
right?
That concert celebrated Sophia Gubaidulina -- her music.
And you know, if you force me to mention only two
of the top composers of the last 50 years I would not hesitate
to say Sophia Gubaidulina and [inaudible].
Ran was also proud that her department was in Chicago,
was one of the first to have women composers
in their program full-time faculty.
Shulamit Ran, first 40 years ago and now also
in the last 10 years Marta Ptaszynska, both great mothers
for generations of women composers.
And you know, see in many departments of music
around the country, dozens, thousands,
still very few woman composers.
I will focus today three composers; Shulamit Ran, Betty Olivero,
and Chaya Czernowin, and their expressions
of Israeli identity in their music.
So two things that are interconnected
and actually not connected; gender studies and Israeli identity music.

The music of Israeli women composers has achieved noticeable cultural
impact; only in 2000 when Hagar Kadima founded the Israel Women's
Composers Forum.
In 2001 when Betty Olivero, an Israeli composer who was born
and educated in Israel, and achieved her initial fame in her 17-year stay
in Florence, Italy, became the first tenure tract woman professor
for composition at an Israeli University.
And even that was involved in a big scandal [inaudible].
It took three generations of Israeli women composers
to finally break the glass ceiling of the profession.

When Israeli leading composers began their academic careers
at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in Tel Aviv,
the music universities in the '60s, big names as in Oedeon Partosh,
Mordecai Seter, Josef Tal, to mention some of the leaders
that I spoke about at the presentation
that you mentioned, thank you, Peggy.
These main composers did not even think twice to consider
to grant maybe the First Lady of Israeli composition,
Verdina Shlonsky, a similar post.
Oh, no, female composer what can they -- it doesn't happen.
Even some of the notable Israeli women composers today
such as Tsippi Fleischer, Hagar Kadima have not been employed


But around that same time, in the early 60s, when it was clear
that the young adolescent, Tel Aviv native,
Shulamit Ran might become a composer of international esteem.
She moved like everybody, to pursue education and career abroad,
similar to her peers of that time; Daniel Brownburn, Itsok Pearlman,
grew up in Israel, you leave for the career.
She has served on the faculty of the University of Chicago
for almost four decades, since 1973.
Chaya Czernowin's story is somewhat similar
and we'll show her picture a little later.
Born in Haifa in the mid '80s at the end day of her BA studies
in music composition she too chose to pursue further studies abroad.
Czernowin became the first female composer
to assume senior professorship in Composition
at Harvard University, only two years ago.
Harvard did not have a female composer to teach composition
until three years ago, 2009.
The stories of these three composers, Shulamit Ran,
Chaya Czernowin, and Betty Olivero are similar
in that all three pursued careers abroad, Ran and Czernowin in the US,
Olivero in Italy, and Olivero is the only one who returned to Israel.
But their musical stance and especially their expressions
of their different identities -- gender, ethnic, Jewish, Israeli,
Cosmopolitan, and we'll talk about it more later,
could not be more different.
Shulamit Ran, a full professor at Chicago, Pulitzer Prize winner,
I think she was the second woman to receive that Pulitzer, 1991;
member of the American Academy for Arts and Sciences
and other major organizations like that.
Perhaps one of the top -- it would be fair to say one
of the top maybe 10, less, composers in American today.
I chose her to begin our discussion
because her stylistic changes mirror the ones in Israel
in the last 15 years, although she's been here for 40 years.
As a child prodigy, she studied with both of the founders
of Israeli music, that 12-year-old and 14-year-old studies
with Alexander Boskocich, a founder of the Israeli music
and Paul Ben-Haim, also one of the biggest names in Israeli music.
Her first pieces sounded just like, you know, modeling of this music.
[ Music ]
>> Fourteen-year-old Shulamit Ran, what could be more Israeli
than this piece in the early 60s?
Optimistic ending, Israel was only 13 years old
in existing against all odds.
You can hear the Middle Eastern naive orientalist flute,
the syncopated horror rhythms, the fast industrious tempo
of building a nation, the invention of a tradition.
But this style did not last too long.
Only a few years later, during her studies in New York City,
she realized, like most composers at the time, that nowadays,
in the '60s, one writes music differently, serious, painful,
tortuous, expressing the horror of life in a post-Holocaust world.
[ Silence ]
>> In this recording of this piece granted Shulamit Ran her job
in '73 at Chicago.   [ Silence ]

[ Music ]   [ Inaudible speaking ]

>> Only once [inaudible] is one
of the leading American composers became secure,
she gradually returned home from this time to her Israeli roots
in her musical signified.   [ Background noise ]

>> Replace it immediately.
Sorry about that, we'll have to run between the slides.
Only once [inaudible] as one
of the leading American composers became secure,
she gradually returned home to her Israeli roots
in her musical signifiers.
She began her journey back to her home country, Moletti [inaudible]
with a solo flute composition.   [ Silence ]

[ Music ]
>> In East Wind she intertwined the adulating, orientalist,
melosmatic theme and dense chromatacism,
but not really atonality.   [Background noise] A quick look

at the score reveals the ambulating dramatic quality.
In a brief attempt of melodic analysis would look like that.
Three -- three years later, Ran composed one
of her most profound pieces; Mirage.
Again, a Chicago composer expresses visions of a Mirage of Tel Aviv.
[ Silence ]   [ Music ]

>> And if we have any doubts about the meanings
of these cultural signifiers engulfed
with modernistic musical elements, rhythmic freedom,
dense polyphonic heterophoric phrases, and dissonances,
rapid changes of tonal centers,
the climax of Mirage is a clear reference to Misrafi [phonetic]
or Jewish Arabic [phonetic] reference.
[ Music ]
>> As opposed to Shulamit Ran, who returned to a sophisticated version
of the old Israeli Mediterranean style and more recently
to integrating a wide range of Jewish and Israeli signifiers
in her later music, maybe your American compositions as opposed
to her [inaudible] always kept her allegiance with the avant-garde
or the forefront of current musical innovations.
To use more precise musical terms and we don't actually have,
her style draws inspiration not only from Arabic microtonal ornaments
in [inaudible] which she heard in Israel, her husband now is Japanese
or Japanese-American composer and she taught also in Japan.
And it's also is influenced by techniques of sonarism,
spectralism, new complexity.   Think of composers like [inaudible],

Helmut Lachenmann, Brian Ferneyhough.
By the way, it is not coincidence that practically all of these --
the composers who informed her music that she --
respects her music are male composers.
A Google search for Czernowin
in masculine style yields quite a few results.
Czernowin is consistent and persistent composer interested
in music mixed new sounds.
In the summer of 2010 in Tel Aviv, she theorized, there are two kinds
of composers to put it -- to really go wild with a generalization;
the doctors who can sometimes compose excellent professionally
composed music, and the scholars, the path-breaking composers.
She, of course, sees herself as belonging to the later,
seeing herself as a scholar of music, constantly searching
and researching new seniorities, tempers, musical processes,
and her students at Harvard where she teaches,
admire her for her creative, innovative thinking.
One of Czernowin's most impressive works is her Chamber Opera Panema.

It is based on the protagonist of the book, See Under Love
by Israeli novelist, David Grossman, about the inexplicable nature
of the Holocaust as a silence, but overpowering experience
of the second generation.
At home, many of the second generation children didn't hear
anything at home, but it was there in the silence.
But Panema or inward, is in no way a common opera.
Instead of areas -- instead of arias and [inaudible] or instead of songs
and numbers that we hear in operas, we hear something else --
cries, screams, whispers, silence expressing
that which no one was allowed to express,
the voices of the tortured unconscious, the heathen insanity
of a whole generation, not the first,


Let's listen briefly to the very beginning.
[ Music ]   >> In the interest of time,

we'll have to skip a short discussion on her chamber opera.
Based on Mozart it is available on a DVD by Toshiba Gramophone
and we will move to Betty Olivero who was the first female composer
in residence in the Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra, the first woman
to assume professorship in composition in Israel,
Brylane University and she was fascinated
by traditional tunes just like the founders.
And it's been the first composer to have introduced in her music,
a new idea, that East European and Mizrahi
or oriental Middle Eastern tunes can be merged into one
in sort of the same style.   When we think about differences

between [inaudible] Eastern European music and music from communities
like Yemenite, Moroccans, Egyptians, we think about two different worlds.
She can make you believe, "What am I listening to?
Is it [inaudible], Yemenite, a bit of both.
The synthesis is remarkable exemplifying the old ideology
of melting pot, kur ha-hitukh of Israel of the '50s and '60s.
Actually quite similar to [inaudible] in ideology,
not in style, to cornerstones of the Israeli repertoire of the founder
such as Paul Ben-Haim, the sweet psalmist of Israel,
this was actually a Koussetvitsky foundation.
The manuscript is here at the Library
of Congress at the Music Exhibition.
Or Mordechai Seter's, Tikun Hatsot, Midnight Vigil.
The ideology is the same, the starts are different.
This integration of Ashkenazi
and Mizrahi melodies liberated the Ashkenazi melodies
from their inferior [inaudible] at least as seen in the '50s and '60s.
In her 1996 orchestra, Bakashot, the tunes are originated from Spanish,
Sephardic, Balkans, Morocco, and Yemenite traditions and they are
to inform through the solo part of the Klezmer clarinetist,
Giora Feidman into an all-encompassing Mizrahi Orient,
Misrahi East Europe, Eastern Jews, Ashkenazi,
Sephardic, Mizrahi and more.
And she starts with songs [inaudible].
[ Music ]
>> And one movement and another movement by the same piece.
[ Music ]
>> Ten years later there, 2006, 2007, Olivero worked on work
for viola solo, accordion, percussion, and string ensemble,
which was to be premiered by world-renowned violist, [inaudible].
At that time, Israel was at war, as we know, with the militias
of the Lebanese Hezbollah and the shocking images
in the television news compelled Olivero
to compose her new work now renowned.
The title means reverse, reverse in Hebrew and refers to the reverse
of tears, which were shed by mourning women
on both sides of the border.
On the other hand, the title also contains an element of hope;
the root of the word -- the Hebrew word neharot nahal,
reverse resembles the word of [inaudible] meaning ray of light.
So before we listen to Olivero's Neharot Neharot,
a striking comparison is in place.
At the same time -- at the same time, 2006, 2007, Czernowin,
Chaya Czernowin worked on the completing her major oppressor work
with [inaudible], Maim, water in Hebrew.
Neharot Olivero -- Neharot, Czernowin -- Maim.
Czernowin too was not merely touched by the television images
of the Israel-Lebanon war of 2006.
Her parents, Holocaust survivors, live in Haifa
and are [inaudible] at this age.
She follows the news constantly while composing.
It is not hard to image how Czernowin who identifies
with the political left was torn by the events.
Her Maim, water meant initially to be perhaps part
of a peaceful composition, close to nature, Maim, water.
It turned to portray the devastating, cruel,
power of water and mankind.   [ Music ]

[ Silence ]   >> Let's try this one.

[ Silence ]   [ Music ]

>> Maim compared to the intricacies of sorrow
in Olivero's work including a field recording of women mourning
and ethnic singers chanting litanies,
a composition that combines adulating ornamental melodic lines
with minimalist meditative tonal [inaudible].
Considering the Israeli identity in Olivero's Neharot Neharot
and similarly many other Israeli works with such signifiers,
the same attitude, the desire for sympathies
between Western [inaudible] and diverging ethnic musics found
in Israel, which was the vehicle for nationalism
for the founders has been recently reconstructed as multiculturalism.
As such, it allows the younger composers
to be perceived simultaneously
as conveying a national message [inaudible]
or Arab influence works are performed in Israel and also
as appealing to the international audience as open and multicultural,
received not necessarily as Israeli or Jewish,
but rather as Middle Eastern, embracing Sanskrit
from the Arab world and that's aspiring
to a virtual peace least on the concert stage.
Going back to our title and that's almost the end, not quite there,
our presentation today obviously did not discuss classical music per se.
We can even doubt that Israeli composers in the title
because many musicians in Israel have questioned the Israeliness
of composers like Ran, Olivero, and Czernowin who each spent between 20
to 40 years outside their homeland.
Moreover, as Ran expressed in her 1982 essay, these composers do not
like to be titled as women composers so not really classified Israeli,
well, some people say not quite, and women, well,
they don't like to be that as such.
But these composers of Israeli upbringing represent what Chaya
Czernowin calls the Hebrite people who have roots in many places,
not only -- not only home land.
If you Google Chaya Czernowin, you can --
you can actually see this video when she talks about her roots.
It's actually very easy to see this video.
Again, it will be available in the webcast.
She talks about combining the identities expressed in the music
of all three composers, fascinating picture of emerges --
sorry, she talks about combing her several identities; born in Israel,
studied in Germany, San Diego, came back to teach in Darmstadt,
taught in Japan, went to Vienna, taught there for a few years
and then -- and then back to the U.S. at Harvard.
And she says all of these identities are in dialog
with one another and it is in the video.
Now, combining these identities expressed in the music
of all three composers, a fascinating picture emerges,
one which is similar to other Israeli composers,
men and women alike.
Ran expressed the proud American but also the European, Jewish,
Ashkenazi and Mizrah identities.
In Czernowin's music, we can find European, American, German,
Japanese, Viennese, Ashkenazi and hints to Mizrah identities.
In Olivero, pure Sephardic descent, Sephardic [inaudible],
integrate in her music Latino songs, Mizrah and Yemenite tunes,
[inaudible] melodies, [inaudible], and Armenian laments among others
in her piece Neharot Neharot which she wrote for [inaudible].
We talked about it, right?
So we can see on my title, Israeli Women Composers,
is of course a short cut for a long explanation.
Israeli, like American, spells many ethnicities, many nationalities.
Similarly, women is also very limited.
Ran's style has been described as masculine,
very structured, very thoughtful.
The composers who inspired Czernowin's work
as we say are almost only male.
And Olivero's mentor for many years was varied, not the violin.
Their music embraces a wide range of what we commonly see as feminine
or masculine and all of the spectrum between.
To cite Susan McLeary, a musicologist who specializes
in gender studies, "Women composers were expected to write, think,
and perform not just as well as but in exactly the same ways
as their male colleagues."
Some expected it, but composers like Olivero and Czernowin seem
to resist what they perceived as the stifling
of personal identity under such conditions.
Any [inaudible] traits that had been disparaged as female
such as the so-called intuitive thought or sensitivity
to detail, we can embrace sameness.
We are as good as the men or difference;
we can bring something else to the pallet.
While the word classical is justified as opposed to rock, pop,
jazz, under the large umbrella of what is commonly called classical,
we hear in the music of Olivero and Ran,
ethnic and quietly ethnic citations, in the music of Czernowin,
structured noise or flowers of noise.
Finally, if we allow ourselves to use swift generalizations often,
but not always incorrect all three of them can be tagged
as post modern composers presenting hybrid personality.
Just a few examples from their compositions; Ran especially
in her most recent premier was this day a few weeks ago,
Moon Songs, 2011.
Olivero in her Holocaust piece, L'Ombra che porta il sogno,
titled in Italian; the Shadows, which brings Dreams, 2005.
Czernowin, especially in her work, 2005 we've seen the clip
of the DVD Zaide at the Met, a chamber opera based
on an unfinished Mozart by Mozart,
unfinished opera by Mozart, hybrid work.
Classical, Israeli, women, yes,
but our composers reach far beyond these confining adjectives.
Multiple identities are indeed in the Hallmark of --
are indeed the Hallmark of Israelness in music today,
any music; classical, popular, and jazz, Israeli music alike.
Thank you.   [ Applause ]

>> Thank you so much.   That was wonderful.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask them now.
>> Please.   Your name please?

>> [Inaudible response]   >> Leh Nahid [phonetic]

>> Nahid?   >> [Inaudible question]

>> Myself?   >> Do you play?

>> Do you play an instrument?
Well, I'm an awful pianist; I mean just -- you don't want to hear me.
I also teach the piano a little bit, but it's -- it's actually --
I'm a writer and I'm a historian and I look
at this from that point of view.
I do some analysis in my writings also,
but it's basically the history, the reception,
how these composers are looked through the eyes
of the audience, critics, and me.   >> Have you composed any music?

>> Composed, oh yeah, you don't want to hear my compositions.
[Background chuckle] I've done some studies, but no --
that was many, many years ago.
I mean you have to do that if you want to understand composers.
You have to compose yourself, a little bit.
I've done some but only in order to understand composers.
[ Inaudible question ]   >> About what?

>> Better Israel?   >> Repeat the question.

>> Well, could it play something about Better Israel?
Could you say something about the music of Better Israel?
You're actually talking about Egypt and Jews
>> [Inaudible]   >> Yeah, yeah, immigrated.

Well, yes and no.   I really -- it's not my field.

I really -- you'll have to ask a professor,
Kay Kaufman Shelamae from Harvard.
You know that she's the -- if I say a few words
in [inaudible], literature shadow.
I must say that their major impact on Israeli music came
through the project -- I mean in terms of popular culture, right?
In the music of popular artist [inaudible]
who actually 10 years ago or more integrated singers from Beta Israel,
singers of Yemenite -- sorry, Ethiopian descent in his music
and that became the best hit of the year,
and he's making tours all over in Europe, US here.
So their music enters the cannon of Israeli popular music just the same
as 60-70 years ago Yemenite entered the cannon of Israel music.
So we see the same phenomenon, but in the popular scene.
>> [Inaudible], on I will discuss with you later.
It's almost impossible to [inaudible].
>> I'll be happy to.   >> Discography of Israeli composers.

But whenever I mention to my friends in the United States
that I've become interested in [inaudible] and [inaudible],
and all these people the basic [inaudible].
They're not [inaudible].
So my question to you is this is all well and good,
but how will they be seen on the population in Israel?
Are they accepted?
Are they [inaudible] or is this just some happenstance?
>> Okay, Lee's asking about -- the reception of these composers
in Israel or internationally?   >> No, first in Israel.

>> First in Israel.   Well, it's very complicated.

Shulamit Ran for many years --
I don't know if you know the Hebrew term [inaudible].
For many years it was -- it's a term.
It's actually a derogatory term from Israeli,
has been not so much anymore.   >> [Inaudible]

>> Yeah, for Israelis who left, you know.
Okay, you're not with us, you're not fighting,
we're under siege all the time and Shulamit Ran left 40 years ago.
How can you -- their calling yourself Israeli so she was --
so I'm calling her Israeli.   She expresses it in the music.

It's very important for her.
I mean if Stravinsky left Russia when he was really young,
all of his Russian music was written in Paris,
in Switzerland, in the U.S., right?   He's a Russian composer no doubt.

Well, Shulamit Ran is the same.   She's an Israeli composer.

She's not very well-known in Israel, maybe a little bit late,
more in the last 10 years
because she helped facilitate a contemporary music festival.
So that's Shulamit Ran.
Chaya Czernowin again, she's known to composers there.
Her music is fascinating.
Her music fascinates composers, musicians, because it's really,
really intricate and difficult, but not so much the greater audience.
Betty Olivero is a different case.   >> She's more accessible.

>> Much more accessible.
Maybe, I don't know, that would be again quite, I don't know,
to simplify that idea -- I mean if you go to Mozart
who has a famous quote about, "While I'm trying
to catch the larger audience with my very, very accessible music,
but musicians can hear the tricks here and there,
can hear just the harmonic passage
and melodic trick, and they can tell."
So it's a bit similar in I do not compare,
but you know, it's a bit similar.   Olivero's music is accessible,

but it's very highly appreciated also by specialists.

>> Okay, that was wonderful.
Thank you for answering all the questions.
You'll be seeing this as a webcast in several weeks.
>> With the music.   >> With the music.

With everything -- okay, thank you very much.
>> Thank you so for coming.
>> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress