>> From the Library of Congress in Washington DC.
[ Silence ]
>> Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.
Welcome to the Library of Congress.
My name is Bob Patrick and I'm the director
of the Veterans History Project, a special collection
of the Library's American Folklife Center.
The Veterans History Project is a congressionally mandated effort
to collect and preserve the war time memories of America's veterans.
We are on our 12th year of doing just that.
It's a very important effort.
And as thanks to the efforts of volunteer organizations,
institutions and even individuals, we have been able
to amass an archive of some 80,000 collections of veterans.
Veterans from World War I all the way up to veterans
with the most recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This is a permanently preserved archive here at the Library
of Congress that we hope, in the future will inspire,
will instruct and will educate.
It is educating and inspiring people today and we know because it's here
at the Library of Congress,
it's going to be preserved for generations to come.
Today, we are doing our part to commemorate Women's History Month.
We are honored to present a panel of women veterans
from the first Persian Gulf War.
Desert Shield and Desert Storm marked a turning point in the role
of women in war, as many women were called upon to serve
in mainstream mission roles for the first time.
Just over 20 years ago, women from all military services set a standard
that we have seen upheld to the highest level
in the most recent conflicts
over the last 10 years in Iraq and Afghanistan.
With the Veterans History Project,
trust that today's discussion will raise further awareness
with the contribution of women who served in the Persian Gulf War
and will also inspire other women to come forward and tell their story.
I've been talking to several folks, they're here in the audience today
about who the veteran in their life is.
And I would ask you during the course of this discussion to think
about who the veteran in your life is, be it a woman or a man,
a father, a grandfather, an aunt.
Think about that and what their contribution has been
to the military and maybe take a part in the Veterans History Project
by capturing their story.
Before I introduce our moderator today, I would like to call Juanita
to the podium who has a few words
about the Department of Veterans Affairs.
>> Good afternoon.
I just want to let you know that I do work at the Department
of Veterans Affairs here in Washington DC.
Believe it or not, I work for 2 centers.
I work for the Center for Minority Veterans, 75 percent and also
for the Center for Women Veterans, 25 percent.
Both offices are in the Office of the Secretary and I kind
of split my time in between with the Center for Minority Veterans
on the American Indian Veterans Liaison.
I work with tribal leaders nationwide and their veterans
and also any veteran that comes for assistance, we help them.
We just help them across the board.
Also with the Center for Minority Veterans,
both centers where established by Congress
in 1994, by Public Law 103-446.
And within the Center for Women Veterans, the director serves
as primary adviser to the secretary on the department, policies,
programs and legislation that affect women veterans.
So when I'm working with the Center for Women Veterans,
I focus on all minority female vets and any issues
or concerns are brought up to that offices.
I also brought up brochures, quick series to handout.
They're in the back.
And also, I brought up information sheets on both centers.
And so if you would like to have a copy, they're in the back.
Thank you.   >> Thanks Juanita.

The Department of Veterans Affairs has been a great support
of this project throughout and we're great to have you here--
it's great to have you here today.
It is now my privilege to introduce the moderator for today's panel.
Captain Lory Manning US Navy retired,
served in the United States Navy for over 25 years
and is now the Director of the Women in the Military Project
at the Women's Research
and Education Institute here in Washington DC.
During the Persian Gulf War, Captain Manning served on the staff
of the Commander in Naval Forces Europe.
And in this assignment, she was part of a team
that coordinated telecommunications requirements and support for US
and Allied Forces participating in the war.
Captain Manning's field tours include Communications Officer,
Naval Computer and Telecommunication Station NCTS Iceland,
Executive Officer NCTS Balboa,
Panama and Commanding Officer NCTS Diego Garcia.
She has also served on the staff of the Chief of Naval Operations,
the Chief of Navy Personnel, the Chief of Legislative Affairs,
and on the London Staff of the Commander US Navy Forces Europe
and as a former Army officer,
you have some pretty nice assignments here, Captain Manning.
[Laughter]   >> I do, I do.

>> Captain Manning served on the Secretary
of Veterans Affairs Advisory Committee
on Women Veterans from 1998 to 2004.
And on the Military Advisory Committee
of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network from 2006 to 2009.
She is a recognized expert
on veterans issues particularly as they apply to women.
She has been a frequent guest commentator on a plethora
of television and radio networks that are too numerous to mention.
It's the whole alphabet that we all know about TV and radio.
It is now my pleasure to turn the podium over to Captain Lory Manning
who will introduce our panel members and lead our discussion.
Ladies and gentlemen, Captain Lory Manning.
[ Applause ]
>> Thank you, it's great to be here on this beautiful
and moderately cool which I preferred
to the 80 degrees weather outside.
It's just gorgeous around this building today.
Before I introduce the floor to the speakers,
I want to give you a little bit of a summary about where women
in the military stood at about the time the Persian Gulf War started.
The Persian Gulf War for those of you who are old enough
to remember it and since it was 20 years ago, it's probably not all
of you who remember it very well.
It was the first major test of the all volunteer force
against a large well-armed, well-ordered enemy.
And the verdict frankly was still out on how effective
such a force would be and the biggest doubt was the part
of that force who were women.
Before the end of the All-Volunteer Force in 1972, less than 2 percent
of the people in the military were women.
Now, they were sitting at about 11 percent and they were beginning
to creep into many more occupations than they had been in 1972
and they were getting more senior both in the enlisted ranks
and in the officer ranks than they had been when the draft expired.
Many commentators on military matters thought
that women simply would not be able to handle the stresses of deployment
and they would fail in the field to the detriment of the mission,
of the men they were serving with and frankly of themselves.
Also, many people in the public
and if you were paying attention back 20 years ago,
they would often do this trick on the nightly news shows.
You'd see a soldier in full battle gear getting ready to deploy
and the camera would come in closer and closer and closer
until you thought, "Oh my God, that's a woman."
And when they really wanted to have fun,
she'd be holding an infant or a toddler.
The Persian Gulf War was the first time that we deployed large numbers
of women who were not in the nurse corps to an active war zone.
The women had deployed certainly non-nurses in World War II
and in World War I even but they were well,
well, well, behind the lines.
Only the nurses were upfront in those days.
And one of the reasons the nurses was there were that close was
because there were no men in most of the nurse corps until the start--
until sometime during the Vietnam War.
So, throughout Korea, World War II, World War I, there was an absence
of men in one particular part of the military.
And there was much consternation particularly
about the deployment of mothers.
We had never ever before this time deployed a mother to a war zone.
And the US was not the only country doing this,
there were British women soldiers and sailors, Australians, Canadians,
there were women from other countries there
but the US was the biggest deployment.
There were over 40,000 women who we deployed.
The other thing that had changed after the end of Vietnam was
that because of all technological developments, scud missiles
and long range field artillery,
the front lines weren't so distinct anymore.
It was a little less clear as to where you were safe
and where you weren't and as those of you
who followed the Persian Gulf War know
that there were 6 women killed in--
sleeping in an Air Force dormitory one night
when it was hit by a scud missile.
So women in the Persian Gulf War were deploying.
They were deploying in big numbers, many of them were mothers
and they were at that time banned from being in air combat, sea combat
and by law and by practice from ground combat.
But they were in great danger,
even the ones who were serving behind the lines and the ones
in the Air Force or the Navy
who were aboard so-called noncombatant vessels.
As you all know because of where women are these days,
they did very, very well.
The doubts that many people had raised
about their performance proved not to be the case.
And there were some rewards for them after the Persian Gulf War
which I will mention at the end.
Our first speaker today is going to be Juliana Mock.
She served in the Persian Gulf War with the US Army,
87th Medical Detachment Dental Service and the 12th EVAC Hospital.
Her unit provided dental support for Iraqi EPW's
and Prisoners of War, Iraqi POWs or--
>> Yes.
>> -- at the 301st Military Police Camp.
During the months of January, February and March 1991,
the unit repeatedly experienced loud alarms of chemical detectors
and ingested expired pyrostigmine bromide tablets.
Since the war, she and her husband, also a Persian Gulf War veteran,
experienced health complications and in 2003,
she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.
She is now President, Veterans of Modern Warfare and an advocate
for Gulf War veterans health,
and there are still major health concerns with Gulf War Veterans
that we're still trying to sort out.
So Juliana, you can stay right there if you'd like or come
to the podium if you really prefer.   >> I'll stay here.

So, I was deployed from Germany with a 60-person dental team.
And when we arrived in Saudi Arabia,
we split up into 3 different 12 to 14-person teams.
I was a hygienist assigned to our team.
The 12th EVAC Hospital was the most forward evacuation
hospital established.
We not only saw Americans, but we did, as Lory said,
see the Iraqi EPWs down the road.
When the war began, we of course had no idea what was going on.
We didn't have the communications availability
that the soldiers do now.
We had no idea what was going on and in fact, the only way we were able
to get information was by listening to the BBC
on a transition-- on a transistor radio.
So we had some very unique experiences.
We were never knowing exactly when would be possibly
under attack, what was going on.
We were close enough to the border that we could feel the bombs
since the war began but not knowing what would happen.
We had one chemical suit assigned to each of us and we went into MOPP
for gear and there, we sat for about a day.
What a lot of people don't know is
that once you break open a truck full of chemical suit,
it's expired and that was all we had.
And as time went on, we now realized that we were exposed
to the Khamisiyah chemical plume cloud.
And of course, we were inundated with a lot of oil well fire smoke.
We were deployed for 5 months.
We left back for Germany in May of '91, so that's my story.
[ Pause ]
>> And our next speaker is Juanita Mullen.
She was raised on an Indian Reservation and as a pioneer
for American-Indian women in the US Air Force.
She served stateside tours during the Gulf War in support
of troops overseas, watching her husband deploy and caring
for her children and family while serving.
She herself was mobilized for deployment but was called back.
She retired from the Air Force after 20 years and,
after a stint at the Bureau of Indian Affairs, joined the VA Center
for Minority Veterans and Center for Women Veterans, and she serves
as the American Indian Veterans Liaison for both centers.
>> Good afternoon.
I'm a member as you all know, American-Indian,
my tribe is Seneca Nation of Indians up in New York State.
I joined the military in 1980 and when I first joined,
a lot of people say, well, it might be a long time for a lot of people.
But when I joined the service, they did not have female uniforms.
I had to wear male uniforms and they would always laugh at me
because when I go through an inspection line,
my top pockets would actually be tucked in my pants,
and they say, "How does that happen?"
[Laughter] And so, and I go, "Well and the shirt was too long,"
and so-- and they just had to try to get around that, you know,
make sure [inaudible] but my pockets tucked in.
When I was stationed in Florida during the Gulf War, of course,
during the time when I was in the military,
I was known as Sergeant Campbell, Juanita Campbell.
My first husband was also active duty.
He was stationed at Duke Field and he was--
and as you know, I don't know if you're aware
but Eglin Air Force Base is a big mobility base and he was stationed
at Duke Field and also it's a big mobility area.
And during-- when the Gulf War started, he was--
everybody that works on Eglin, we all have to be ready for mobility.
We're all part of the mobility.
We had to make sure our bags are packed, I have my checklist checked.
And of course, we had 2 girls at that time and also a dog
and we had to prepare for them.
And when the Gulf War, as soon as it kicked off and I worked nightshifts,
I had to work 12-hour shifts for like 2 and a half months
up to 3 months and I had 2 kids, 2 girls.
And then when they start the first deploying, I was one of the people
that actually put my husband on a plane
to get deployed with hundreds of others.
And at the same time, I was on a tasking.
Some bases had to send so many people
out from their respective bases.
I was on a second task and I was at that time--
I was supposed to represent Hill Air Force Base
and so they can meet their quota.
And of course, the first task, it went through the line
and then I was just getting so close to go through the line
to get the shots, you know, in the back side.
And I mean, it was quite a bit of fluids that they put back there
and I was kind of nervous about that.
I can handle anything else but that shot in the back side.
But during the whole time, when they canceled their first task
and it also canceled may task and so I was kind--
I was grateful at that same time that I didn't have to get deployed
because I was worried about my girls even though we have preparations
made for them to go to Texas with their grandparents and that.
And then I just kind of worried if anything happen.
My first husband when he was over in Iraq, he was stationed
by the patriots and of course, he would keep me in contact
of what was going on over there
and then he would send me little souvenirs.
He sent a little souvenir of a scud missile with the wires all hanging
out of it and I still have it, you know, as souvenirs.
But, when I was-- even though I was working 12-hour shifts,
shipping everybody out and I'll go home and, you know sleep
and you know, at the same time take care of the girls and there's a lot
of times they did get left alone at night time.
I think my oldest was probably about 11, 12 years old and they had
to stay by themselves in the evening and then I get home early
in the morning after my shift was over and then get them off to school
and this was going on for 2 to 3 months.
And then when they started coming--
my husband, my first husband stayed there during the whole time 'till
like March when they start shipping everybody back and when he was--
when they were shipping people back, you know, it's--
of course, you know, they would call me and we did this--
you know, when they say, "Hey, your husband's-- you know, did the news,
he is getting ready to put him on TV," and they call us say, look,
to make sure we cath him on there.
And when they-- when the troops started coming back,
I know that even on our base,
they would always forget about the dual military.
They would always forget about the other military spouse,
you know to say, "Hey, you know, we're there for you."
And, you know, they would usually do like the dependent wise,
they would focus on them and then they kind of forget about us
and I say, "Hey, what about us?
You know, we're working 12-hours shifts, our spouses are over there
and we deal with the same pressures and the worries and--
" But they kept me pretty busy and you know,
and then even though we are loading aircraft and get to talk
with the civilian pilots and they show us how to--
you know how to load, you know how their cargos
and the little Coke cans, we sit out and drink coke and that and--
but it was a good experience and I learned quite a bit
and I would never trade it up and thank you.
[ Silence ]
>> Our next speaker is Darlene Iskra.
She was one of the first Navy officers who was a diver
and she was also the very first woman in the Navy to command a ship.
It was the USS Opportune ARS-41, one of the noncombatants.
And--
[ Pause ]   Took off my glasses to read.


[Laughter] She took command of the ship and took it
to board during Desert Storm in January of 1991.
In addition to her experience as a sea-going officer,
her staff work included both enlisted personnel management
at the Bureau of Naval Personnel which I hear they're finally going
to knock down pretty-- the Navy annex over in Virginia.
>> Oh really?
>> Yeah, I talked to the base commander there
and they're actually letting a contract
to knock it down sooner or later.   He didn't say when.

And she also worked in civil affairs, disaster
and did military attache work for the Commander-in-Chief,
Pacific in the Republic of the Marianas in Guam
and the Marianas Islands.
She retired from the US Navy as a commander in April 2000
and subsequently got her PhD in military sociology
at the University of Maryland.
And her story is included in the Veterans History Project collections
and is featured in the Veterans History Project Voices of War.
>> Hi and thank you everybody for coming.
My story begins a little bit before the war.
I knew I was going to take command of Opportune.
I was scheduled to take command of Opportune in January of 2000--
sorry, 1991 but I wound up going there a little bit early
because this-- the previous Commanding Officer had
to get medically about-- evacuated from the area.
He turned he had stomach cancer.
So this-- and I was also originally supposed to take the ship in Naples,
Italy which I subsequently did.
So I got called from my home in Virginia, Norfolk to get
on the plane the day after Christmas and fly to Naples
and take command of the ship.
So I never really had a formal, you know, big olala turnover.
I just walked on board the ship the day I arrived and set
over the ship's command system.
"This is Lieutenant Commander Darlene Iskra and I am now
in command of this ship," and that was like it.
So that was December 27th of 1990 and we were in Naples
until the beginning of January and we had--
of course, had heard about all the buildup of from Desert Shield.
My first hus-- my first husband, my ex-husband,
I was married at the time, was involved with the buildup and--
but he had come home by the time I left for the deployment.
And as Lory said, I was the first woman
to command a Navy ship even though it was a noncombatant ship.
So there was a lot of public--
publicity about that and so the second day I was on the ship,
the PAO, the Public Affairs Officer contacted me and asked me
if I'd be willing to do an interview with the local
and international press and I of course said yes.
Primarily, because I think I thought at the time and I still do
that it was a really good news story
for the Navy especially during war time with all the stuff
that was going on, now we have a woman in command of a ship that,
you know, was in-- that was for deployed
and so I just thought it was a right thing to do.
Anyway, so what happened was during Desert Storm, once the war started,
my picture was of course in all the papers and you know my--
a friend of my husband sent a copy of a paper that was in Saudi Arabia,
you know, an Arabic paper, send it to my husband and he's
like thinking, "Oh great, my wife is, you know, out there
and now she could be a target, you know, because of the publicity."
But anyway, as it turned out, we did get underway for the Gulf, January--
I think it was January 21st.
We got underway and our mission was to steam about 50 miles outside
of Port Said, Egypt in the Suez Canal
in case the canal was mined and/or a ship was sunk in the canal
which prevent the canal from operating.
So we steamed in this little 50-mile square area.
We did go into Port Said one day for refueling and re-provisioning.
We we're actually anchored out,
we could not go pierre-side for security reasons.
But when the [inaudible] agent came on board, the boat-- small boat--
suddenly, there were all these small boats that were crowding
around the fantail of the ship and I'm like thinking, "Oh my God,
oh my God", you know 'cause
like remember what happened at-with the USS Colt 20 years later.
But when I talked to the [inaudible] agent,
he assured me that they were just merchants that really wanted
to sell, you know, souvenirs to my crew.
And so I reluctantly said okay, so we had about a 2-hour market day
at on the fantail of the ship in Port Said,
Egypt and luckily there were no problems.
Another thing that happened was as one of the other women indicated,
the chemical and biological threat, we--
the Navy also provides MOPP gear, the chemical, biological
and nuclear threat gear to the ships and of course--
'cause we knew about the scud missiles but we didn't really know
about the scud missiles in terms of what their capabilities were
and we didn't know whether they could be fired from Iraq
to eastern Mediterranean.
We didn't know if they could be fired on a moving target.
We didn't know anything.
And as-- your name is Jessica, right?
>> Julie.   >> Julie, I'm sorry.

As she said, we didn't have any communications either.
Occasionally, I would get messages over the radio
and telling me what had happened, but it wasn't like in America
where you're getting the news, you know, minute by minute.
We knew nothing like till 2 weeks after the fact
of things most of the time.
So I was really in a state of-- I felt like a mushroom, you know,
I didn't really know a lot was going on.

And I didn't have enough of this-- of these masks, these chemical masks
and MOPP gear for the whole entire crew.
I had a crew of about a 100 people.
I only had like 90, so I had 10 people that had to go
into what they called deep shelter anytime we went to general quarters.
And we did wind up going to general quarters several times a day
because what wound up happening was because again, I--
we were small non-combatant ship.
We didn't have the big surface search radars, we had,
I mean, air search radars.
We had a-- small service search radars.
We didn't have any capability of communicating with aircraft.
We could communicate, you know, ship to ship and ship
to shore but that was about it.
But everyday and at different times of the day, an aircraft would come
over us and it was a friendly, but we didn't know it, you know,
you couldn't take chances
that it was this friendly going to be all the time.
So everyday, whatever time they decided to fly over,
if you see this aircraft coming low on the horizon and then pop up and,
you know, and then go over and they we're doing it on purpose I think
to see what our response would be.
Of course, we went to GQ every time, because again,
we didn't know whether it was a friendly or foe.
However, it if had been a foe, we wouldn't have been able
to do anything anyway because we didn't have any arm in it
to shoot down an aircraft.   We had some 50-caliber machine guns

that could possibly shoot small boats if they happen to come near us
and we had 20-millimeters supposing anti-aircraft guns
but they were again, World War 2 vintage.
My ship was built in 1944 and so it was all manually operated and,
you know, eyeballs.
So we-- there was no way we would have been able to shoot
down a plane, but for fun, so to speak, we used to do training
with these 20-millimeter guns and one of the things that we would try
and shoot at and again no birds were killed in this operation,.
But if there was a bird flying over us, I'd said, "Okay,
let's see if you can, you know, try and shoot that bird," you know,
'cause you have to, you know, forward and, you know,
all those things you have to try and do,
of course birds totally got away.
They probably scared the hell out of them but, you know,
none of them were killed, but I thought it was a good practice
and the only other really exciting thing
that happened during the War was I got a call.
I used to-- we had a way of--
the only way we had a peak physical training
on the ship was we had a couple of life cycle bicycling type
of gear back in the salvage hold and I'd always be down there
in the afternoons riding my bike and I don't--
I'd have sound-powered phone next to the bicycle so they'd called me
up "Captain to the bridge" or they called
over the PA system "Captain at the bridge."
I ran up there this one day, I was in my PT gear which include,
you know, a T-shirt and a shorts and this helicopter--
there were 3 ships that had come over the horizon
and we identified them as Soviet vessels and you recall that back
in 1991, we're suddenly friendly with the Soviets.
They were no longer our enemies 'cause the Cold War expired 2
years before.   So they were our allies and I'm so--

we're, you know, we're kind of watching them, 3 of them
and they deployed a helicopter to check us out.
So this helicopter is hovering over the right side of the ship
and forward part of the bow and so I'm standing up there looking.
I got-- I have my binoculars and I'm looking.
I can I see the guys and--
had his binoculars and he's looking at me and I wave.
So-- suddenly, the officer of the deck,
a person who's actually driving the ship says, "Captain,
they want to talk to you."   So I-- you know, I said okay.

So, I get on the ship to ship radio and I said,
"This is Lieutenant Commander Darlene Iskra, Commanding Officer
of USS Opportune, who are you?"
and they're like, "Commanding officer?"
"Yes." "Okay, well, we're just on our way to the Suez Canal
and we just thought we would--
you know, just make sure that everything was fine."
"Yes, everything is fine."   But it was really hilarious

and which you could tell they were really surprised
about having a woman's voice over the intercom there
and I was the only woman on board so that would have been--
that would have been that.
So then went I went back out on the fantail and then waving again,
they're just kind of looking at me
and then they went of, happy journeys.
So we eventually-- of course the war eventually stopped as far
as the fighting was concerned and we got back to Little Creek in April
of the 1991 to a heroes welcome so that was pretty fun too.
So if you have any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer them.
>> Thanks.
Our fourth speaker, Gail Shillingford is not here.
If she comes in while we're all still here, we will be eager
to hear what she has to say.
But since she is not, I want to sum up a couple of the themes
and then ask some questions to the panelists
and then we'll open the floor for questions from you.
Some of the key things of the woman service
in the Gulf War have already come up.
The deployment of one or both members of a joint military family,
by that, I mean where both parents, both partners are in the military,
particularly when there are children that have to be taken cared off.
The exposures that men and women veterans experienced
and the aftermath of those as Juliana has mentioned,
the surprise of women in Commanding Officer billets and job.
And also although maybe a lot of you missed it, there was one wale
of a lot of publicity about women this, women that, and sometimes,
it rubbed the guys that we were serving with the wrong way,
you know, "Hey, I'm deploying, I'm leaving my family too,
how come she is getting all the radio and TV time?"
And also, we were involved with things that had nothing to do
with the fact that we were women.
For instance, Darlene mentioned that fact that talking
to the plane flying above.
I was up in London coordinating telecommunications with--
that's where the [inaudible] war room happened to be.
We did all the communication stuff from there and one
of the things we learned early one is we had a much easier time fully
communicating with ships from Australia, Canada, Great Britain
and other countries that were allies in that war but we couldn't talk
to our Air Force very well.
It's a problem that has been worked on a lot since then
and has been solved, but there were some funny things
that you would notice during that Gulf War.
Any rate, I would like to start off asking the panel--
panelists if they were aware much of the publicity about women,
that constant nightly news and I saw it because in the war room,
we always had to have CNN on so we saw the US version
of CNN even though we were in London and all the time, they'd becoming
on these stories about mothers deploying or women
over there doing this or that and the guys would turn around
and tease us about how come it's always you on the television?
But I was wondering if any of you were aware of some of the publicity
at the time, were aware that this was the first major deployment
of non-nurse corps women to a war zone and your experience of that?
Does anybody want a bite on that?   >> I could.

>> Okay.
>> During the Gulf War, when I was home at times, I would sit there
and record, you know, for my girls and I always have--
I had stacks of VCR tapes where I recorded the wars.
I recorded, you know, when my husband came
on across the TV station, I recorded that.
But during that whole time, I didn't really see that much focus on women
in the war at-- during the Gulf War so--
>> Okay.
>> I noticed that before I deployed that during the buildup,
during Desert Shield, there was an awful a lot
of information about-- within deploying.
And as you said, the-- you know, the moms with babies
in their arms crying and the husbands, you know, saying goodbye.
So I do believe that, yes, I was aware of that.
>> While deploying out of Germany, we had no idea.
We knew-- we were aware of course that women hadn't been deployed
in such big numbers to a wartime situation.
But in Germany, there really wasn't the attention.
And in fact, when we returned back,
there was actually anti-American sentiments in Germany
so we didn't have any concept about how much--
how important that was in the US at all as far as press was concerned.
>> Thanks.
Another big shock and this was sort of in the aftermath of the war.
Well, there are several things that happened
in the aftermath of the war.
The first was it became apparent that just
because the aircraft you were on or the ship you were
on was not a combatant or the fact
that you were behind the front lines did not mean you were free
of danger.
And within the first 2 or 3 years after the Gulf War ended,
Congress changed the law governing what women in the military could do.
First, in the 1991 Authorization Act, they lifted the prohibition
against women serving aboard combat aircraft which was always kind
of a strange demarcation anyway.
For instance, the AWACS planes that did all the electronic targeting
and the direction of the planes
in the air were not considered combatants at the time.
Although if you splashed one of those, the other ones were--
didn't have somebody directing them.
But the fighter planes, the attack planes, some of the helicopters,
most of the patrol planes were off-limits to women.
And so those were all opened by Congress in 1991.
And as a result of the 1994 Authorization's Bill,
all the combatant ships in the Navy were opened except
for certain things like submarines or some of the very small ships
where privacy was an issue,
where you couldn't really have a mixed crew aboard sleeping.
And most of the Navy ships now are open to women but a few aren't.
One called the attack submarines and a couple
of the very small riverine boats.
But gradually, over the past 20 years, we've opened just
about all the navy combatants to women.
Also, the Army and the Marine Corps did a big review
of what they call their combat support jobs, those are things
like signals and intelligence which aren't combatants per se,
but they support the combatant troops, the infantry, the armor,
those were opened to women in 1994.
At the same time as the Navy ships were--
the services had done a major review and opened many, many thousands
of billets within combat support which got women much,
much closer to the front lines.   And those same rules that apply

to combat support are still the rules governing women service
in Iraq and Afghanistan, the stuff that came out of the Gulf War.
They're inadequate for the job but we still haven't figured
out quite how to rectify that.   It's a longstanding problem.

That was on the active side.
The other government agency that had a big shock in the aftermath
of the Gulf War was the Department of Veterans Affairs.
There were certainly women who were eligible to be treated medically
or otherwise, at VA, you know,
to get the GI bill and that kind of thing.
But most of the ones, particularly those involved in VA healthcare,
were from World War II or the Korean War, a few from Vietnam.
So there were-- VA was used to a very small population of women,
most of them well passed their child-bearing years and many
of whom despite the fact that they were eligible for VA care,
simply chose not to do it.
So VA healthcare at that time was very male-oriented.
And from the time that the Persian Gulf War ended
until continuing right now today,
there has been a major evolutionary change.
We're still not there yet.
But VA has become more and more women-friendly.
And I know, you worked at VA and you may or may not get VA care
but I was wondering if anybody in the panel would
like to discuss their experiences with VA and how particularly
over the years as VA was trying to get used to women
as their healthcare patients.   >> Yeah, I got a comment.

When I retired from the military in 2000, it took me over 10 years
to apply for my VA benefits and services.
And due to when I applied, of course, you know,
it took me almost 2 years.
And here, I was service-connected and, you know, with the VA head,
I gave him a copy of my records.
I even tabbed out all my service-connected issues
and I presented it.
And they said I was zero across the board and I worked at VA.
And I said, "Oh, no," I said, "You will make me an appointment.
And I want to see a couple of doctors, it's in there."
And my first medical appointment was here at the VA Medical Center here
in Washington, D.C. And when I went in there, he goes,
"What are you doing here?"
He goes, "Is your service connected?"
I go, "Then why would they send me?"
You know, and so all of a sudden, I went from zero percent
to a hundred percent service connected disabled.
And that kind of really-- and then I cannot really understand how these
veterans, they would apply.
And if they're told, "No, you're not-- no--
you're zero across the board," and when in fact,
it's not true and they give up.
And this is why we have especially for, you know, like women,
they don't self-identify as veterans.
And so now, we're trying to push, "Yes, you're a veteran."
And especially like for American-Indians,
a lot of women don't see females as vets.
If you're-- if you haven't served an actual war,
you're not considered a veteran and that's not-- and that is so wrong.
And so now, we're trying to push that and also at vets in that,
if you try to apply for your benefits and don't give
up the first time around, make us do our job to take care of you,
keep going, keep pushing because, you know, they did that to me
and I said and I knew it wasn't true.
And I kept fighting for it, pushing and pushing and there's one issue
that they-- nobody with VA would even like vouch for maybe
because it didn't happen while I was in the military.
And I actually had to get a medical doctor that did surgery and I said,
"I just need you to prove, just say that you did my surgery, the size,
everything that I did not have this while I was in the military."
And the doctor came back and he said
that you had this problem 2 years prior
to getting out in the military.
And-- but it took a while to do that and I just kept pushing and yeah,
it took me over 10 years to even apply but then another a couple
of years to actually get the services that was due.
Thank you.
>> So with regards to women's only clinics,
when I first accessed the VA hospital in Seattle, there was a--
there was a small women's clinic but they had no separate women's access.
So for example, if a woman had military sexual trauma,
she was forced to walk through all the men and go
to the clinic appointments and the level
of privacy was really-- actually really low.
So it's evolved now
into VA hospitals having their own separate entrance really,
really actually nice women's clinics
where women have their own primary care providers within the clinics.
And in fact, women can receive prenatal care
at these clinics a lot of times now.
So there has been a huge evolution since we were deployed.
>> Anything else?
Any of you would like to mention before I open the floor
for questions?   Yes?

>> I do have something that is a little bit different.
I was also a dual military-- in a dual military marriage.
And my ex-husband is a SEAL officer.
And of course, he had deployed many times prior to this.
I had deployed twice before but this third deployment during the Gulf War
was really different for him and he was home during the conflict.
He wasn't deployed.
And so as soon as I got underway for the Gulf, I didn't have time
to call him and of course we had no way of really contacting him before
and I'll never forget that.
So he-- and then he sees my picture all
over the place, I told you that already.
But he finally understood what it was like to have a spouse
at home while the member was deployed to, you know, a conflict.
And that was a real eye-opener for him.
>> And now, I would like to take questions from the floor
and the gentleman in the back has a microphone.
If you would like to ask a question,
he'll bring the microphone over to you.

Somebody must or I'll have to ask you questions.

[Laughter] Bob?   >> I have a question.

[Inaudible] the mic.
>> What I'd like to know is, you know,
looking back to when you start off 20 years ago, what do you think
about the women of today who are serving and what thoughts come
to mind when you see what they've gone through in the last 10 years?
>> I'm really, really proud of them.
I mean, I think they have really-- I mean, as Lory was saying,
there's always this segment of the population that wants
to pooh-pooh women's capabilities.   And, you know, it's like we have

to keep proving ourselves over and over again.
And even now, with all the evidence that shows
that women are doing the jobs that need to be done in the war zone,
they're fighting in the war zone, they're protecting themselves
and their charges in the war zone,
we still have this combat exclusion policy
that doesn't make sense for today's military.
So I'm very, very proud of them and all
that they've accomplished in the last few years.
>> Oh, one of the things that I experienced
when I came back was that, you know, my experience although I was there
with the man next to me,
my experience was devalued, because I was a woman.
So although I've had the same experience,
it wasn't as valuable on people's minds.
And I think that that's really improved this time around.
I think that women's contributions are acknowledged a lot more
and I'm proud of all the progress they've made too.
But I'm really pleased to see the fact that they're--
there are about-- their contribution is acknowledged more so than it was.
>> During my experience in the military, when I was--
I found that even though like in 1980 all the way up to almost 2000,
I had to kind of act like a man, think like a man
and then be a female at the same time.
So it's just like, you know, you'd-- I found myself where the--
I had to pull myself in a position
where I can't be walked or pushed around.
But with the women today, you know,
there's a reason why females join the military.
It's just-- is to protect our country.
And then when you have people out there
that don't want women fighting along the other soldiers, it's like--
is don't-- is ask us, ask us how feel about it and what--
how we want to-- if we want to fight with them.
Because we joined the military just like the males for one reason,


>> Question here.   Yes, he's coming with the mic.

[Inaudible Remark]
>> I'm curious to know in terms of personnel.
Do you know-- do you have any information
on quotas either for or against women.
>> Right now today?
I can address that unless somebody in the panel-- it depends--
do you mean quotas saying that you have to have X number of women
or quotas that are targets, that are-- a floor or ceiling quotas?
>> I mean both, they can't put in any more than this number.
>> The Air Force-- for the Air Force, about 99 percent
of all jobs are open to women.
So they, at least on paper don't have any quotas, there's no--
and about 19 percent of the Air Force is currently female.
Navy is driven by how many [inaudible] aboard a ship can have
female sailors.
For officers, because of the way the officers are aboard a ship,
there's no limitation because--
or very few limitations because of the way their sleeping quarters are.
There should be only 2 to 4, 4 to a room.
So, the Navy has been stuck at about 14 to 15 percent women
and it's largely driven not so much
because various occupations are close to them
but because the way the ships are configured only X percent
of a crew can be male or female.
So the quarters work both ways in a sense.
Typically, a crew might be about 80 percent male
and about 20 percent female, but it varies from ship to ship.
Army and Marine Corps is a little bit different.
Large numbers of the jobs, the billets in both the units
and the occupations in both those services are close to women
because there are infantry, armor, special forces, or long--
short range field artillery.
And because so many jobs are close to women, it drives the number
of woman below say what the Air Force could take.
On the other hand, particularly the Army, since the Gulf War began,
could recruit more women if more women particularly,
on the enlisted side wanted to enlist in the Army.
So it's-- they have not run out of room for women
but fewer women have actually enlisted in the Army.
Percentage wise, the Army is about 13 percent
of their enlisted personnel are now women,
officers is closer to 16 percent.
So there are limitations on the number
that can be allowed initial entry that's governed by what is
or isn't open, but it's not a formal quota.
Also, over the past couple of years, the service academies, West Point,
Naval Academy, and Air Force Academy, they used to artificially--
I think this is me speaking, lower the--
keep the lid on the number of women going to the academies.
It was sort of-- not officially but it was sort
of closed off at about 14 percent.
But in the past 3 or 4 years, led by the Naval Academy, there--
they are-- they've lifted those sort of informal quotas
and they tied them to well, 14 percent of the forces enlisted,
so 14 percent of the officers coming through here should be woman
or 14 percent of the enlisted force is women.
They didn't-- they stopped doing that and gradually, the percentages
of women at the service academies are raising pretty much all
above 20 percent now.
So that's a complex answer that-- I don't--
I'm not aware of any formal quotas unless it's some very specific
occupation where most of the jobs are in units that don't allow women.
One that comes to mind is some of the chemical warfare officer staff
in the Army so there are some women in chemical warfare
but there can't be that many because most of the jobs are in units
that don't allow women so it's more along those lines.

>> Microphone guy?   Oh, he's got it, great.

>> Do you think the current limitations
on what women are allowed to do in any branch
of the service are reasonable?   >> Anybody want to take that?

>> Of course, I think-- don't think they're reasonable.
[Laughter] You know, and I have always been an advocate
for women being able to do the things that they are capable
of doing and qualified to do and it shouldn't be based on gender.
There should be job-related requirements.
Many of the requirements in the past have just been requirements
to keep people out rather than requirements
that actually represented what the job entailed.
So obviously, not all women can--
could be an infantry man and carry 100-pound pack for miles and miles
that they have to do but I believe that there are women who can
and it shouldn't be based just on that one aspect of gender.
It should be based on whether or not they are capable of doing the job.
>> Either-- anybody else?
'Cause I would tend to agree with-- I do agree with Darlene 100 percent
and I would also say a lot of people don't realize how much during this
war women have been doing things
that are technically off limits to them.
For those of you don't know what's currently closed to women are units
and occupations whose primary mission is ground warfare.
So the infantry and the units of occupation of units
that are infantry units, armor, et cetera, also special force closed
to women in all services.
But during this war, particularly in Afghanistan,
women have been traveling with our special forces out in the field,
on their own because they have to be there.
One-- special forces has lots of missions,
one of them is gathering local intelligence.
And when more than half the population is female
and they're not allowed to talk to our men,
we can't gather intelligence as effectively
without those women traveling with special forces.
Women have also gone with infantry units, the lionesses
and more recently, the Marine Corps Female Engagement Teams.
They travel with small squadrons, platoons, companies of infantry.
Particularly, when they're doing things like house raids
where they are likely to be women and children present.
And among other things, the women can search the local women
but also it tends to keep the lid on violence when women are there
so women have been doing for 10 years now all kinds of things
that are still technically off limits to them.
There was a big change that came about in February
that did [inaudible] with what used to be called the colocation rule.
That said that if you are say a medic, you could be a medic
but you couldn't be a medic if you were a woman
with a small infantry squad.
You couldn't-- even though we were attaching women medics as opposed
to assigning them, that's a real technical distinction
that forces make, too small infantry squadrons.
If she was the only medic available, out she went.
So that kind of prohibition is gone but the basic ones,
nothing has changed although the services will owe another report
to Congress on the potential to open more probably in mid November.

>> More question back here.   >> Thank you.

This question is for Julie or anybody else in the panel
in particular, regarding Gulf War illness post war in particular
with women, you kind of touched on it earlier,
can you talk about the process how it was for you and how you think
that relates to how women are treated today
after Iraq and Afghanistan?
>> A lot of people started getting sick actually
when we we're still in Saudi Arabia.
There was an onset of rashes and headaches.
I think that's where things primarily began and then
as everybody returned home, there were strange reports
of the continued rashes and nausea and headaches and you know,
symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome
and the adjustive issues and it continued on.
And even in-- even 10 years after the war,
there weren't a lot of concrete diagnoses.
They knew that there were 3-- 2 different--
3 different groups of clusters of illnesses--
ill-defined illnesses that they now refer to as Gulf War illness.
But specific diagnoses of diseases hadn't taken place yet and it's only
in the last 10 years that that's happened.
So we still have a lot of progress to make.
Does that answer your question?
>> Anybody else want to make a contribution to that?
>> Can I ask you one last question please?
>> Yeah.
>> I'm just curious, I got a little away but I wonder.
Does anybody know any statistics
about how many women were actually serving in the Gulf War?
>> I have that in front of me actually.
>> Oh, great.
And I wanted also to [inaudible] how that compares
to the Afghanistan conflict or Iraq.
>> I don't have any of today's statis--
>> Oh, I have those statistics.   >> Okay, okay.

There were 54,000 women deployed for the Persian Gulf War
that we're actually involved in the Gulf War.
And of that number, there were 13,000 women who were exposed
to the chemicals of Khamisiyah, that's the breakdown that I have.
>> There were also 15 women killed during the Persian Gulf War
and 2 of them who were prisoners of war.
The current war and again, keep in mind,
the current wars have been gone on for more than 10 years now
as opposed to nowhere near that length of the Persian Gulf War.
The deploy-- you know, both parts of it, both the deployment
and the war itself were over in less than-- in about a year.
So, so far are over 250,000 women have deployed in support
of the current war which is about 10 percent of the deployed force.
It was about 7 percent
of the deployed force during the Persian Gulf War.
Over 140 women have been killed,
865 have received Purple Hearts during the current wars.
And a number of them have received other major military awards
or valor, so.   >> Well, thank you very much.

It's been great having you here today.
I want to thank you and I'm sure everyone in the audience wants
to thank you not as your service as women but your service
in the Armed Forces, in your service to your country.
As Juanita said, all of us who served are Americans
who are there to defend our country.
I would also like-- oh, there's some other women veterans
in the audience, would you please stand up, I know you are here.
[Applause] Let's all give a round of applause to all of them.
[ Applause ]
Again, thank you for being here today.
If you want some more information
about the Veterans History Project, we have it outside.
My staff is here as well to talk to you about how you can tell the story
of the woman or man in your life who is a veteran.
Again, thanks for being here and hope to see you next time.
[Applause]
>> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress.