>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. [ Silence ] >> Gail Shirazi: Hello, I'm Gail Shirazi of the Israel and Judaica Section here at the Library of Congress. And before we start today's program I want to briefly mention our next program on May 29th on "Rescue in the Philippines: Refuge from the Holocaust." We're screening the film. It's a documentary film. So hope to see you there. There are flyers on the back table. Welcome to today's program, Voyage of the St. Louis co-sponsored by Library Services here at the Library of Congress and the Library of Congress Professional Association Hebrew Language Table. The program is presented today in honor of the 75th Anniversary of the sailing of the St. Louis and in honor of Jewish-American Heritage Month. We have one of the passengers from the St. Louis with us today, Eva Weiner, sitting right there and I'm wondering whether there are any other passengers or families of passengers that are here with us today, and if so, could you stand. So just Eva, oh there's another one. [ Applause ] Thank you. I would also like to thank a few people, Michlean Amir from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum who's the reason this program is here today. She arranged the speakers and had the idea for the program, Roberta Shaffer Associate Librarian of Congress, Beacher Wiggins our ABA Director, Audrey Fisher and the staff of the Public Affairs Office, Sue Vita in Music Division who let us have the wonderful Whittal Pavilion and Galena Tabarvosky [assumed spelling] of the IJ Section. Also, of course, Marvin Kalb and our panelists Martin Goldsmith and Diane Afoumado. I will be stepping aside as soon as introduce Mr. Kalb and he will take over the program. Marvin Kalb spent 30 years as an award-winning reporter for CBS News and NBC News. He has written or co-authored eleven nonfiction books and two fiction books and he's currently working on a new book, "The Soviet Spring: The Rise and Challenge of Putin's Russia. He's a non-residency senior fellow with the Foreign Policy Program at Brookings and is a Senior Advisor to the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting. He focuses on the impact of media on public policies and politics and is an expert on national security with a focus on U.S. relations with Russia, Europe and the Middle East. And it is with great pleasure I introduce Marvin Kalb. >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you Gail very much and thank you all for coming to this program. Very quickly to set the stage Hitler came to power in Germany in 1933 and five years later in the fall of 1938 there was the Kristallnacht when the Nazis decided to destroy as best they could as many Jewish shops and synagogues as they could in Germany. And the German Jews got the message very quickly. Many of them had the message earlier and they decided that it would be good to get out. And more than 900 of them managed to get on the St. Louis. I notice the title here, Voyage of the St. Louis and, of course, that entire journey has been written about in a book and a movie as "The Voyage of the Damned" and that is probably an understatement because they never were able to land in Cuba, their destination. Had to go back and roughly I don't know the exact numbers, two thirds of them somehow managed to survive World War II. A third of them did not. So when they could not land in Cuba they went back to their debts in different times and in different places. We are really privileged to have two people who know about this subject and will talk to us about it. One of them is Martin Goldsmith to my left. Martin is the host and classical music programmer for "Symphony Hall" on Sirius XM satellite radio and he hosted NPR's Performance Today from 1989 to 1999. He is the author of two books, the first, "The Extinguishable Symphony." He can tell you about that; I hope he will and the second is "Alex's Wake", which has to do with his grandfather and uncle who were two of the more than 900 on the St. Louis. Also joining us today, Dr. Diane Afoumado. She received her PhD and MA in contemporary history from the University of Paris in Nanterre. She had a fellowship at the Holocaust Museum. She has written extensively on this subject and she's conducted research especially on the St. Louis Oddesy through the Eyes of Captain Schroeder, who was the captain of the boat, the St. Louis. And I would like to ask Dr. Afoumado to start first and then Martin to pick it up after that. Please, doctor. [ Applause ] >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: Thank you very much and first of all I want to thank the organizer. Thank you Gail for putting this program together and thank you. I want to really thank my colleague and dear friend Michlean Amir for you know organizing this. So I'm going to present a PowerPoint to you and try to summarize in 20 minutes the whole story of the St. Louis. So please if you have any questions I can you know talk more about the St. Louis at the end. So first of all, I want to say a few words about the Jewish population in Germany and in the rise in general just before World War II. The Jewish population in Germany before the war was about one percent of the total population of Germany. And as you know, you know you mentioned this already, but as you know the Jewish refugees fled Germany mostly, I mean half of them mostly between 1938 and 1939 and especially after the Evian Conference and you can see one of the photographs of the Evian Conference there on the PowerPoint. The Evian Conference in July 1938 that basically tried to solve the problem of the refugee crisis but it ended up being sort of a failure and I'm going very fast here because you know there was a lot to say about the Evian Conference. But roughly at-- in 1938 and 1939. There were not many options for the refugees and for the Jews and they could go mostly to Shanghais and Cuba. And you can imagine that when you were, when you were a Jew from Germany or Austria, like I said the rise in general, that was probably not your first choice, you know Shanghais or Cuba. But that was the only choice you basically had when you were thinking of massive immigration. I'm not talking about individual immigration, that's you know-- I'm talking about really a large number of people fleeing Germany. So before I start really telling you the whole story I want to say a few words about the Hapag Company that owned the St. Louis boat. The Hapag Company was not the only company at that time. In the 1930s there were many others. The Hapag Company was German but there were many other companies in France or Great Britain, the Netherlands and most of them actually carried Jews onboard. Jews who were trying to flee Germany in 1938 and 1939. What I'm trying to say is that the Hapag Company was not the only one and the refugee crisis really touched all those companies of cruise liners at the end of the 1930s. The Hapag was created in 19-- in 1847 and it was mostly a commercial fleet that was totally destroyed in during World War I and rebuilt afterward, afterwards and enriched its golden age in the 1920s. So imagine you know this company that was really, that had a boats, a lot of vessels, a lot of luxurious liners and the St. Louis was one of the most luxurious boats at that time. What is interesting is that in order to immigrate to Cuba in the 1930s, at the end of the 1930s you needed a lot of documents. I'm not going to go through the whole list but it was actually a lot of documentation that you had to gather in order to be able to enter the country, let alone buying the boat, the ticket on the boat. So this is an example of the immigration identification card of one of the St. Louis passengers. And basically most of the St. Louis passengers had what we call a landing permit. This is not a visa per se and this is-- I mean this is a good document. This is totally a legal document but this is not a visa. And but just remember that term lending permit, because that's what most of the passengers had. This is a photograph of some of the passengers boarding the St. Louis. And I really like this photograph you know because it gives me a chance to tell you more about the passengers themselves and the world that they are stepping in. Most of the passengers were families so the oldest passenger on the St. Louis was born at the end of the 19th century in the 1980s, 1990s and the youngest one-- >> Eighteen. >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: Sorry 1880, sorry I'm not good at dates and numbers. Especially English is not my native speaker, so thank you for correcting me, so 1890s, 1880s backward and the youngest passenger was actually a baby born in January 1939. But what I'm trying to say is that we are not in illegal immigration here. This is a perfectly legal immigration. You know those people had legal documents to immigrate to Cuba so they were leaving Germany with their whole family and also what is interesting is that by boarding the St. Louis they're going to step into a world of luxury that they didn't have access to. I mean even you know the wealthiest passengers on the St. Louis they were basically, they belonged to most of the categories, social categories of the Jews in Germany and Austria but even the most wealthy passengers on the St. Louis didn't have access anymore to that kind of luxury because of the persecutions in Germany. So when they board the St. Louis this is basically what they're going to see. I chose that photograph on purpose because I'm, of course, I mean there were many other locations on the boat that were actually photographed by the passengers. But this really one of the most beautiful photograph of the dining room in the St. Louis. So just imagine a very luxurious vessel, one of the most luxurious of that fleet. Imagine the Titanic but with the decoration of the 1930s, so you know just to make it short. And they're going to have a lot of possibilities to try to enjoy the voyage, but you can imagine that is going to be difficult for them. So, they need some time because they go from the persecution since 1933 to this kind of you know atmosphere by just boarding the boat. But after 24 hours ,48 hours for some of them they're going to try to relax and to enjoy as much as possible you know the pleasure of that journey. I want to say a few words about the crew on the St. Louis and the captain. This is a photograph of the chef on the St. Louis and you have to imagine that the crew is about 200 people. The captain of the boat, Captain Gustav Schroeder is a German who is very proud of his country. I usually define him as a romantic German because he really is in love of Germany. He really loves his country and he hates the Nazis. He hates what the Nazis are doing to Germany. And he is the captain onboard. So he tells, you know he gathers the crew just before the departure of the St. Louis to tell them that onboard you know it is out of question to persecute those passengers because they are Jewish. So you know the Nazi laws don't have any room onboard. I mean you know the crew will be at the service of the passengers like they would be at the service of any other passengers who would go on a cruise. This is not a cruise per se but they would be at the service of the passengers on the St. Louis. So they will serve them like anyone else. And he also gives the crew members the choice to leave the boat if anyone disagrees with this and no one left. So all the crew, I mean the whole crew is at the service of the passengers and the passengers are going to be able to enjoy the facility on the boat, including the menus and this is one of the menus of the-- on the boat. And you know the menus were absolutely outstanding. They can also relax by you know dancing in the ballroom. You can see those people smiling and dancing and trying to do the best they can and to enjoy as much as possible that journey between Hamburg and the Havana. Some others would play shuffleboard on the deck of the St. Louis, but what is interesting in here is that we have documentation about most of the passengers and two of my colleagues at the Holocaust Museum traced those, the face of the passengers, each of them of the St. Louis. And so we know exactly what happened to them. So here you can see [inaudible] Lindburgh playing shuffleboard on the St. Louis, but he was previously to that voyage arrested probably during, I mean most likely during Kristallnacht and sent to the Dachau, to you know the concentration camp in Dachau. And on that document which is a document from the International Tracing Service collection that we have at the museum. You can see his prisoner number on the top of this card and this is his office card in Dachau. So he was able to leave the camp, on one condition it was not to return to Germany ever. So this is just to show you that all the categories of the passengers who were on the St. Louis. There were also about 200 children on the St. Louis and I, I specifically enjoyed the photograph. I really liked the photograph with the swimming pool because that gives me a chance also to tell you what happened in Germany. You know during the 1930s the Jews were not allowed in swimming pools in Germany. So those, those children who are enjoying you know swimming in that little swimming pool on the St. Louis, for the youngest one they probably didn't even know how to swim because they never had a chance to learn. So you can imagine that you know this is very important and everything would be done onboard thanks to the captain and the crew to make that journey as you know as enjoyable as possible. So when they arrive in Cuba on May 27, 1939 this, this slide actually gives me a chance to talk about the political crisis in Cuba. The St. Louis, when the St. Louis arrives in Cuba they actually, the passengers cannot disembark. But no one tells them why they can't disembark, because there is a political crisis in Cuba and also no one explains anything to them. But the legal crisis is the following. So you probably don't know much about the president the Cuban president because you have absolutely no reason to know anything about him. But you probably heard about Batista, maybe not in the 1930s, but Batista was already you know doing something. So the landing permits that the passengers acquired were actually sold thanks to huge traffic of documents that was organized by the Secretary of Immigration Management, Benitez, Jr. And he was supported by the president's men opponent, political opponent Batista. So Batista was trying to destabilize the president behind the scene through the Secretary of Immigration. And in order to reestablish his political power the president wanted to put an end to immigration. So, he decided to issue a decree just few days before the St. Louis actually left Hamburg. This is not against the St. Louis passengers. The president didn't even know anything about the St. Louis passengers. They were just immigrants or you know they were just legal passengers among other boats that would come to Cuba. But you know he wants to put an end to immigration, so you know that's why he issued a decree. So no one would actually disembark legally in Cuba and facing that crisis the American-Jewish Joint Distribution Committee decided to send on location one of its representatives, Lawrence Berenson to negotiate with the Cuban authorities, but nothing would happen. And even the captain of the St. Louis, Gustav Schroeder, would put on civilian clothes and try to negotiate with the Cuban authorities as well, but nothing, nothing good will come up from that, of this. So, basically the captain cannot do anything but you can imagine that for the family members and the friends of the St. Louis passengers who are already in Cuba, it's very difficulty because they don't know anything. They don't know what's going on. They try to communicate with their families onboard. So they would hire little boats like this one and they would try to go around the boat and try to communicate with their families and friends trying to bring them you know exotic fruits and try to you know give them some news about what's going on. This is also another photographs of those boats. I'm going quickly because I want to move on to the next step of the St. Louis. So you know after a while the negotiations were probably over in Cuba but the captain, so the captain receives the order to leave the Cuban waters, but he decides to navigate between Cuba and the United States because more than seven, more than 700 passengers were actually registered on the quota list of immigration in the United States. That means that anytime you know it could be a question of those amounts or years, the number would come up so eventually their final destination would be the United States. So the captain brings the St. Louis in front of Miami, in the harbor of Miami, and the passengers can see the light of Miami and the palm trees. But there is you know for the United States I mean I'm going to give you a little overview of the general political context so you can understand why this you know the United States did not let the passengers in. You have to understand that it would have been you know 900 plus people. So it's not a big deal for the United States to welcome those people, but just imagine that if the country had opened you know the doors to those people thousands of hundreds would have you know followed them because you know there were more and more immigrants and Jewish, Jewish refugees who tried to escape from German and the rise. So, the you know by anticipating that situation it would have opened the door to more massive immigration and the government didn't want to do this. Plus in the United States don't forget that there was the immigration act of 1924 and so the quota you know were the quota. So it was out of question to make an exception and to raise the number, to raise the quota to accept more refugees. There was also certain label of antisemitism of the population and also among the state department and if you, when you read the correspondence between you know, I mean among the state department you can realize that they were very much afraid of welcoming more refugees and especially Jewish refugees because they were associated them with communism and the fifth column. So I mean I'm must giving you several reasons, but there are much more. But I don't want to talk too much about this. So the St. Louis had to go back to Germany technically so between, I mean you can imagine on the way back that the atmosphere onboard is no longer the same. But on the way back the JDC would ask its representative in Europe, based in Paris, Morris Troper to negotiate with some European countries. In that case it was Belgium, France, Great Britain and Holland. And it's a very long and complicated negotiation, complicated negotiation that involved also representatives of the Jewish communities in those four countries. And it's basically a race against the clock and almost like a pocket game for Morris Troper to have those countries agree on accepting more refugees. So to make a very long and complicated story short, and especially those negotiations, eventually Belgium, France, Great Britain and Holland would accept the passengers and they would be dispersed almost equally between the four countries. But just imagine that you know from the moment that Cuba refused them or you know refused the St. Louis passengers to disembark they became illegal immigrants because they had legal documents to immigrate to Cuba. So they would be in Europe with basically illegal documents and it couldn't work. So without moving, without doing anything their legal status changed just by you know the decision of Cuba and they would become illegal immigrants. So basically they would become almost refugees, not quite because you know refugee is a legal status. So, I just want to give you one example. So the St. Louis passengers ended up in those four countries, except for those who actually went to England to Great Britain. The others became, you know we are in June 1939 and the war almost you know, or the war is you know at the door, so the-- for those who actually ended up in those three countries of France, Belgium and Holland they became-- they were in the same situations as all the refugees who found refuge in those three countries during the 1930s. So you can see for example here photographs, a very beautiful photograph of Elsa Kaliner [assumed spelling] on the boat, on the deck of the St. Louis and smiling. You can see her also here talking to some other passengers. And on the other photograph on your left, this is a photograph that was taken in [inaudible] in France. It was like a home because you know you have to remember that those people were held by Jewish organizations because they couldn't support themselves. So she's there and she's almost safe since you know she's in France in her home. But France you know was occupied and was also you know had the Vichy Government who was very antisemitic. So, they had to face not only the antisemitism of the Germans but also of the Vichy Government. So, here we know that Elsa Carliner after you know being on the St. Louis, going to Cuba to Miami and coming back to France ended up in [inaudible] in France and was actually arrested, rounded up in November 1942 and she is, her name is on that list. She was deported from [inaudible] and perished in 1942 in [inaudible]. Just two more slides to finish and you can read the numbers. So 231 passengers of the St. Louis actually perished during the Holocaust. Those people could have been saved if they had disembarked in Cuba. The St. Louis returned to Germany after a seven-month cruise and was totally destroyed in 1944 after it being bombed by the Royal Air Force and you know the St. Louis no longer exists but on photographs, postcards or leaflets. And I want to you know just show you a picture of the captain of the boat, you know Captain Gustav Schroeder wearing his hat. And you can see a photograph of his hat that we have. We have the hat at the museum. You can imagine when I was a fellow at the museum you know that for everybody it's like an artifact. For me it's his hat. So just by looking at this photograph and looking at the hat, I don't even think of touching it, because it's very emotional for me, but you know just by looking at the hat I can actually tell you the whole story of the St. Louis. I don't need any other slide or any other photograph. And this is the book that he actually wrote and this is a signed copy. And Captain Schroeder died in 1959 and he was awarded a medal from, by West Germany in 1957, just two years before he died for helping the passengers of the St. Louis. And he was also posthumously honored as Righteous among the nation by Yad Vashem in 1993. And if you want to know more you have a paper outside; I think it's on the table outside with some links and some books on the St. Louis. And these are two links that actually we have on the website. This is the exhibition, the online exhibition of the St. Louis that two of my colleagues, Sara [inaudible] and Scott Mueller worked on. And my book, but it's in French, I'm sorry but when I started you know I wrote this in French and I still write in French. I try to write in English but so this is the book that tells the whole story of the St. Louis. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you very much Dr. Afoumado. It was a fascinating, fascinating report. Martin Goldsmith, we'd like to hear your report please. [ Silence ] >> Martin Goldsmith: Thanks so much Mr. Kalb. Thanks Dr. Afoumado. Thank you also to Michlean Amir and her wonderful colleagues at the Holocaust Museum who were of such incredible help to me as I did my research for my book. Alas I do not have a PowerPoint to share with you. I could I suppose modestly suggest you go out into the lobby and get a copy of my book "Alex's Wake", because there are many wonderful photographs within the pages of the book, very low tech I must say. But one of the photographs that I'm most pleased that I've discovered with the help of the wonderful people at the Holocaust Museum. When after Morris Troper of the American Joint Distribution Committee brokered the deal that enabled the refugees onboard the St. Louis to disembark in either England, France, Belgium or Holland, all the passengers onboard the St. Louis signed a note of appreciation to Mr. Troper and the-- in the archives of the Holocaust Museum I discovered a portion of that card which includes the signatures of my grandfather Alex and my Uncle Helmut and that is reproduced in the book. So, yes Alex Goldschmidt, my grandfather and Klaus Helmut Goldschmidt, my uncle were two of the more than 900 refugees onboard the St. Louis. And three years ago my wife, whom I happy to say is standing at the back of our room today, my wife and I retraced their steps beginning in the small lower Saxony village of Sachsenhagen where my grandfather Alex was born in 1879, the 7th of eight children. He was the son and grandson of [inaudible] or horse dealers. They came from a long line of people dealing in horse flesh and they did very well for themselves trading horses and raises horses and selling horses was an occupation that was open to the Jews of Germany when so many of the professions were closed to Jews. But my grandfather Alex did not want to go into the horse business. He instead went to the Northwestern German city of Oldenburg and opened a woman's clothing store, the House Der Moda or House of Fashion where apparently all fashionable Oldenburg women shopped for dresses and hats and shoes and accessories and so on. And when Amy and I were on our journey of remembrance we, of course, went from Sachsenhagen to Oldenburg and met a at the time 93 year old woman named Anna Marie Boycon who knew my father and knew my father's younger brother, my Uncle Helmut. She confessed to me that she had a crush on both of them [laughter] and beamed at me the whole evening that we met because she said I looked so much like my father and like my uncle. And she said it makes me feel years younger to look at you. And then she told a wonderful story about my grandfather. Again he ran the House Der Moda and when Anna Marie was 8 or 10 years old she went with her mother to buy an Easter dress and she found the perfect frock for the occasion, she said. And she asked her mother to buy it for her and her mother took one look at the price tag and said, well I'm afraid this dress is too expensive and Anna Marie began to cry. And then the proprietor of the store, my grandfather, Alex Goldschmidt came over and said, what's the matter? Aren't you the little girl who knows my sons and who plays marbles with them? What is, what is wrong? And Anna Marie said, well I found this wonderful Easter dress but my mother says it's too expensive. And at that my grandfather looked at the price tag and said oh, there's been some mistake. One of my employees marked down the wrong price. Here is the correct price and named a much lower price and just like that Anna Marie got the dress that she wanted. She told the story in German to Amy and me and my hosts were translating the story. But then Anna Marie stopped and in English said to me, that is exactly the kind of man you grandfather was, which was a lovely story for me to learn about. I also learned a little bit about my Uncle Helmut who was a studious young man, not a great student but a good one, a very poor athlete for which he was taken to task by the gym teacher of the Alpha [inaudible] in Oldenburg who was a vigorous member of the Nazi party and gave my uncle a good deal of trouble for his lack of athletic ability. But if my, if my uncle was not so good at running and jumping he had a good deal of what I, well I quote J.D. Salinger at one point referred to my uncle's testicularity, which he demonstrated at a school-wide assembly of the Alpha [inaudible]. In the autumn of 1938, just a few weeks before Kristallnacht, the Nazi party came and was an honored speaker to the students and the faculty of the Alpha [inaudible] and he began speaking about the Jewish [inaudible], how the Jews were controlling finance, controlling the media and how they were coming after our, the flower of German womanhood and on and on and on. And at one time in the middle of this school-wide assembly my uncle, aged 17, stood up and shouted [foreign language spoken]. These are all lies. At that time he turned and strode out of the assembly room. The principal of the school went over, grabbed him by the arm, dragged him up on stage, slapped him in full view of all of the assembled and within days my uncle was kicked out of the school. But one other thing I was very pleased to discover in Oldenburg a little not that my grandmother, Toni Barrons, sent to the school shortly after my uncle was evicted from that assembly. Her note was essentially one line saying, you can't kick my son out of school, he quits. It's the only note that I have in my grandmother's handwriting. And as you might imagine I'm very proud of her as well. Well on November 9, 1938, which Mr. Kalb has mentioned, the night of Kristallnacht, my grandfather Alex was arrested. The morning after he and 42 other adults, male Jews of the city of Oldenburg were paraded through the town past the still smoldering remains of the synagogue on [inaudible] they were sent to the prison in Oldenburg. And then the next day again paraded through town to the train station where they were sent to the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. My grandfather spent the next five weeks in Sachsenhausen and then was released in early December of 1938, told he had six months to leave the country or else face further arrest. So that is when he booked passage along with his younger son, my father's younger brother my Uncle Helmut booked passage on the St. Louis, which is how they became two of the more than 900 refugees onboard. When they made it back to Europe they disembarked in France no doubt, at least very, very please that they were not back in Germany. But, of course, that is when their troubles began. And as I say, three years ago my wife and decided to follow in their footsteps. And if I may just quote a few lines from the first part of the book, from the first chapter I said that I discovered with the help of the museum, the Holocaust Museum I learned their itinerary and the list of all the towns they spent in those three years of captivity. That list of names became as familiar to me as my own address and telephone number. And late one night it came to me what I must do. I knew that I needed to retrace their steps to set foot on the earth they trod during those final three years of initial hope and eventual hopelessness to see what they saw and to breathe the air they breathed for they breathed their last. I would tell their story as a grandson and nephew and an eyewitness. And I write that I packed along with our luggage and my, the remains of my father who had died a few years earlier and I decided to sprinkle his ashes in the park next to the house where he grew up, because he loved it so much, but I packed the fervent hope that in the coming six weeks I might learn much about the ordeal of my grandfather and uncle and also find a way to set down my families long-borne burden to steer my way out of the churning turbulence of Alex's wake into the calm and peaceful waters of my living family, my friends and my life. So as I say, my wife and I began our journey in Sachsenhausen where my grandfather was born. We went to Oldenburg where he set up the House Der Moda. We traveled to Hamburg where the St. Louis sailed from, where we also paid tribute to some of our musical heroes, the Beatles, who honed their craft over two years between 1960 and 1962 along the Reeperbahn in Hamburg and also to Yohannes Brahms who was born in Hamburg in 1833. We then drove across the low countries to meet up metaphorically with Alex and Helmut when they landed in Boulogne-sur-Mer in northern France. We did some research at the Biblioteca Nacional, the library there in Boulogne. And as I write I was very pleased that for the first time since my 8th grade French class I actually found a use for the phrase [foreign language spoken]. It was very gratifying to see that after all those years that phrase stuck with me. So we found a bit of what happened to them while they were in Boulogne-sur-Mer. We then were dispatched to what was called the Agricultural Retraining Center at [foreign language spoken], which was a very small village in the northeastern part of France near [foreign language spoken]. It had been a spa town for many years but because of the healing waters and some of the Jewish refugee organizations in France had set up this agricultural reeducaiton center and for two idealic months in July and August 1939 my grandfather and uncle learned how to raise sheep and to raise chickens, but then came September 1, 1939, the outbreak of the Second World War, and my grandfather and uncle [inaudible] in the eyes of the French from refugees to enemy aliens since they now were, since they still carry their German passports and Germany and France were now at war. They then were sent to a camp in Sion, from there to Montauban where they were held in an old cookie factory for a month before they were sent to the refugee camp in Ogda, which had been set up as a refugee camp for the victims. Some of the victims of the Spanish Civil War but then became a holding camp for what the French called the undesirables of France. As of the 20th, as of the third day of October 1940, the [foreign language spoken] was passed more or less an echo of the Nuremberg laws. The Vichy Government passed the [foreign language spoken] again depriving the Jews of their Civil Rights making it impossible for Jews to hold many professions saying that the Jews had to have yellow signs in their business windows identifying them as Jewish run businesses. So, they were there in the camp in Ogda, along the Mediterranean, sent from there to the camp in the Pyrenees called Rivesaltes where they spent six months. From there they were sent to the camp in [inaudible] where they spent a bit more than a year and they two then were sent via [foreign language spoken] to Auschwitz where my grandfather aged 63 was immediately gassed. He was deemed too old to be of any use to the German war machine. My uncle was 21 years old at the time. He was tattooed with the number 59305, sent to barracks number seven in Auschwitz. He then was transferred to barracks number 20, where he died on October 9, 1942 officially of typhus, but very possibly of a lethal injection straight to the heart. So my book "Alex's Wake" tells the story of these two journeys 70 years apart, a journey of my grandfather and uncle onboard the St. Louis and of my wife's and my journey following in their footsteps more than 70 years later. It's been a great pleasure to speak with you today. Thanks so much. [ Applause ] Thank you. >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you both very much for two fascinating reports. I have as you can imagine several questions that I'd like to pop to both of you before we go to the audience and you're invited very much to ask questions as well. Mine I'd like to start with Martin and then go to Dr. Afoumado. Martin if you could come up. You mentioned in your book or probably I would not have thought of it before, but you mentioned something that a number of Jews who survived the Holocaust talk about and think about a great deal; whether they share that information with their children or not. And your father chose for a long period of time to put some distance between himself and you and the experience of the Holocaust. And so there's sort of two sides of the same question. How did you feel when you found out about it, that you were being denied something. What was your gut feeling, then about your father's judgment on that issue, please. >> Marvin Goldsmith: Yes. It's apparently not uncommon for people of my generation, the second generation, the children of survivors of the Holocaust. It is not uncommon to grow up in an atmosphere of secrets and lack of information. In the first book I wrote, "The Inextinguishable Symphony" about my parents and their experiences playing in an all Jewish orchestra in Nazi Germany between 1935 and 1941, I describe it as some borrowing from of all people Richard Wagner, his image of the second act of the opera "The Valkyrie" which takes place in the house of Hunding. It has a tree growing up through the floor and up through the roof, this immense presence. And I compared the silence in our house to this, this immense tree. The fate of my parents family is they all perished during the Holocaust. It was something we didn't talk about. My brother once asked my father, why don't we have uncles and aunts like all of our friends do? And my father answered very shortly, they died in the war, not wanting to go any deeper than that. He obviously felt a great deal of guilt and shame, which he did pass on to me and my brother, which I describe as then the metaphor of traveling in "Alex's Wake" the fact that for so long this, this idea that my father had not done everything he possibly could have to save his father and uncle was a great burden on him. He passed it on to me and that was I-- when I did find out more of the details I write in the book that I could simultaneously feel a great deal of anger from my father for not having everything he possible could even though he and my mother were brand new refugees to this country and had very few resources. So I was simultaneously very angry with him, but also full of pity for him as well, since he had so few resources. He had so little that he probably could have done and was saddled with this horrible feeling of guilt for the rest of his life. >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you very much. And Dr. Afoumado the question for you goes back to that moment when the St. Louis after six days in the harbor in Cuba, Havana, found that they could not get into Cuba and so they tried the U.S. And you gave a couple of very good reasons why the United States turned the St. Louis away. But I'm still left with this question, actually two questions. The first is the Secretary of the Treasury was Morganthal who was a, an unafraid, unashamed, unabashed Jew. She spoke on behalf of a lot of Jewish causes. He wanted to speak to President Roosevelt time and time again about the Jewish problem. And I don't quite understand his role in all of this. He sent two Coast Guard vessels to look after the St. Louis. Captain Schroeder I believe said at one point that he was thinking of grounding the St. Louis so that the people, I don't know if that's right, but thinking of grounding the St. Louis so that these people could get off the boat in the U.S. Was Morganthal protecting the boat, protecting his reputation, protecting the President? Why didn't he do more? That is the question I ask from the vantage point of 2014. I didn't live with him at that time, please. >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: Well actually it's-- there are many, many things that you can read online or that you can read in some articles that are not totally true about the St. Louis. And they-- the story of the Coast Guard, I mean there is very little information about this and basically nothing in the archives. It's based on testimonies but we don't-- I've never found any trace of anything like this in the archives. So, it's actually something that needs to be researched a little bit further. And as for the role of Morganthal, it's you know when it comes to the St. Louis usually I don't get the question about him but I get the question about Roosevelt. But-- >> Marvin Kalb: You're getting there. >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: Oh, okay. [laughter] It's hard to imagine that just one person can make the difference. I mean you know in that case even if-- I'm going to talk about Roosevelt first and then answer your question. But, Roosevelt was certainly seen as the most powerful person in the world. But you know this is the American government and you know we cannot do anything without Congress, I mean the approval of Congress. You cannot do any, you cannot change the law. You know the State Department was very, very reluctant to welcoming more refugees and so it was not his decision only. It's the same thing with anybody in the government and Morganthal was one of them. He couldn't, he could advise the President. He could say something. He could put some weight on this, but at the end of the day I mean, that would have been opening the doors again to more and more refugees. So, I mean it's not only about the-- we're talking about the St. Louis from the perspective of the passengers here and from the perspective of humanitarian cause. If you go, if you look at the story from the government perspective, humanitarian cause is not really what moves governments usually. I mean this is not, I mean this is terrible to say but you know humanitarian reasons don't usually weight more than anything else. So that's-- this is one of the reasons. As for I forgot the other one. >> Marvin Kalb: No it was Morganthal and you spoke of it. >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: Okay so I answered everything. >> Marvin Kalb: Let me pick that up as well and ask both of you this question. Supposing, and I know it's hard to imagine, but supposing something similar were to happen today. Would there have been the same result do you think? Martin. >> Martin Goldsmith: Well, the fact is as Diane mentioned or referred to, there was a certain strain of antisemitism in this country in 1938. I quote a Roper poll from that era, which indicates that more than 50 percent, 53 percent of the American people who responded to this poll declared that Jews were not like the rest of us and that they, it was important that they be restricted in their business practices and their social practices. Only 39 percent of the people responding to this Roper poll said the Jews were like everybody else and should be treated the same. A full 10 percent of the people responding to this poll said that all Jews should be deported from the United States. And we really need to remember that this was the era of restricted hotels, restricted country clubs. This was a fairly antisemitic country in 1938. If something similar were to happen today I do not certainly see that that is at that same level of antisemitism in existence today. So I don't see anything along those lines happening. Now if it were a boat filled with people from other lands given the anti-immigration stance of many elected officials and many citizens in this country, it's a little hard for me to know exactly what the answer would be. >> Marvin Kalb: Dr. Afoumado we'd like to have your view, your sense of what would have happened if this would have happened today. And to go back to something you were saying earlier as a sort of not justification but explanation of why it is that what happened happened, do you feel that governments, what have we learned in the last 75 years. As a matter of fact if you go back to the St. Louis and you try to think about today and you take what I'm struggling for here, humanitarian issues should they not be more central to the construction of our foreign policy. It seemed to me that in the last two or three decades there have been efforts on the part of the U.S. Government to take into account a humanitarian need and not to stick to the law as literally and rigidly as we have. So the same question to you. What would be your sense now if something similar were to have occurred. >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: I'm not trying to avoid this but I'm a historian so I'm not a political scientist or a political advisor. But I think that what we have now and they didn't have back then is a more clearer definition of refugees of you know legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, so we have something that is supposed to protect those people and because they are a part of different categories. And if you look at today, I mean the world of today is really a word of globalization. So, the-- you know there is more prevention. There is more also attempt to understand what's going on ahead of time in terms of humanitarian response to a refugee crisis. So before you know we reach that point of basically no return, before you know you see people just boarding boats and trying to you know go wherever they can, more and more you know prevention is done ahead of time. So on location to try to help those people and to try to prevent them from fleeing their own country or prevent them from being forced to flee their own country. It doesn't always work considering the world of today, but it's a world you know that is basically I mean you have many wars going on and it's very difficult to answer that question in one sentence. >> Marvin Kalb: I think that one of the things that I had in mind was the role of the media, actually. And if CNN could stay almost live for about a week on a cruise ship in the Gulf of Mexico, which had some problem with toilets, I wonder if a ship like the St. Louis today, and it was not a mystery. We all knew what was happening at the time, but a ship like that in the harbor with live television 24 hours a day, I have a feeling there'd be a different kind of result. We have about five or seven minutes now for your questions and if you'd like just raise your hand. I'll try to spot, yes sir. >> Yes. [inaudible] Did I understand you correctly that the reason why the St. Louis was turned back was because of an internal political process going on in Cuba. I mean, I, my understanding was that it was-- weren't there German operatives around that area? Wasn't there something influenced by the [inaudible] involved at all? >> Marvin Kalb: The question has to do with whether there was more to it than just the political differences and anguish within the Cuban government at that time, please. >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: Well the main reason is the political atmosphere in Cuba but it also, Cuban became a little bit different in the 1938, 1939. I'm talking about the population. The population became more and more anti-immigrants and anti-Jewish you know during those two years of the 1930s. Because Germany actually sent agitators in Cuba like you know in other countries including the United States to try to make sure that there would not be more immigrants there. It's not the only reason. It's just a combination of reasons so, excuse me, this combined with the political, domestic political situation in Cuba was not in favor of the St. Louis passengers or the other passengers on other boats, but mostly it's the decree issued by the president. >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you very much. You had a question, yes please. >> Wouldn't it have known at the time the fate that they were likely to go back to, was there any evidence that Roosevelt or Morganthal knew about the existence of the death counts? >> Marvin Kalb: Was it known at the time what might happen to the people if they were sent back? >> Dr. Diane Afoumado: Well there were, we are in 1939. There is no death count at that time. But you know the government, the U.S. Government knows about the concentration camps in Germany in 1939. But again, I mean you know that is for all the reasons that I mentioned you know they didn't, they couldn't do anything you know based on those, on those policies. The only, the only thing that could have happened would have been basically making an exception for that particular boat and for those 900 people making that exception because they were, most of them had registered on the quota least. So, it would have made basically a legal precedence from the government perspective. But I have to say I want to mention something that I didn't have time to mention during the PowerPoint. What I told you about the decision of the United States is actually from the government perspective. But from the population label it's a little bit different. We talked about antisemitism, but it is also another side that I'd like to mention, also to balance because it's not black and white. It's more a lot of shades of gray. There are-- the National Archives in Washington in College Park in Maryland, there are many, many letters from American people, letters and telegrams either sent to Roosevelt or the State Department asking for the passenger, I mean asking them to let them in. For political reason, for historical reason, for religious reason so you could see in those letters and telegrams the generosity of the American people on the individual level. And some of them even said I have a big house and I can actually welcome a family of four or I have a company where I have enough land and I can actually hire some people to come here because they couldn't become a public charge for the United States. So you know when I tell the story and when I have more time, I usually try to balance this and try to tell the story from different perspective and labels. So I wanted to-- >> Marvin Kalb: [inaudible speaker comments] Yes please. >> I'd like to ask Professor a question. You talked about the reaction in the United States. What about in Cuba? We have somebody who was there at that time, the feeling of the Cuban people. How did they feel about that? And we have my mom and dad [inaudible]. She was 13 years old. >> Marvin Kalb: Well I, please. >> I remember reading in the paper we were very, very concerned what was happening [inaudible]. They wanted them to say from what I heard, relatives and friends but there was nothing that the government would do. >> Marvin Kalb: There was nothing that the government was doing, but that the Cuban people you knew were, in fact, interested in what was happening. >> [inaudible audience comments] >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you very much, very interesting. Yes ma'am. >> What was the reaction or does anyone know of a reaction within Germany that the St. Louis was-- >> Marvin Kalb: What was the reaction within Germany? Do we know anything about that Martin? >> Martin Goldsmith: Well as you might imagine the German propaganda machine went into high gear. [inaudible] when it was discovered that the St. Louis was turning back to Europe made have of the fact that we will have to take as you put it, we will have to take these shabby Jews back and we will deal with them. And the world figured out soon thereafter what that meant. No less a figure than Adolph Hitler himself mockingly wrote of the reaction to the St. Louis, "I can only hope and expect that the other world, which has such deep sympathy for these Jewish criminals will at least be generous enough to convert their sympathy into practical aid. We on our part are ready to place these criminal at the disposal of other countries even for all I care on luxury ships. So here is Adolph Hitler again mocking the west for supposedly being so concerned about the Jews and yet not taking them in. >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you Martin. We have time for two more questions. Yes ma'am and then in the back, that's okay. >> I wonder if you could say something about the political situation. There was the isolationists that were very strong in the United States at that time. Would you care to comment on how that influenced their decision. >> Marvin Kalb: Well the point is what is the feeling within the U.S. taking into account a strong isolationist sentiment. I would like to pass that on although I would be happy to try it also. Well, we know from a number of recent books that that isolationist sentiment was very strong. Roosevelt was very sensitive politically to what it is that was capable of doing and not doing. In 1938 he had been slapped down in an effort to expand the courts. And Roosevelt in that period of time was rather vulnerable. We don't think of him now as we look back as a vulnerable President. He was an awe inspiring President four terms and all of that. But in that period of time he did feel his vulnerability, he was cautious and I suspect that if the issue came before him just very specifically you've got 900 Jews on a ship. My gut feeling is he'd have said no, let's move on, there are more important things to deal with. Yes ma'am, one more question. >> [inaudible audience question] >> Marvin Kalb: Changing the-- >> Mentality. >> Marvin Kalb: Mentality of American Jews. [ Inaudible audience question ] >> Marvin Kalb: Yes. [ Inaudible audience question ] >> Marvin Kalb: Right. Your point is I believe that how is it possible to change the mentality of the American people or the American Jewry. Big time question involving a good bit of time, but I'd be happy to ask Dr. Afoumoda if she has a thought about that or Martin, would you like to take a comment about that. I want to be responsive to your question. >> Martin Goldsmith: Again I'd like to echo what Dr. Afoumoda said. There was something of a hue and cry over the St. Louis. There were front page stories above the fold in the "New York Times", "The Washington Post", "The St. Louis Post Dispatch" in the first few days of June 1939 when the ship was off the coast of Florida and waiting for word as to whether it might be allowed to disembark its passengers. And Hollywood celebrities, among them Edward G. Robinson sent telegrams to the White House requesting the Roosevelt Administration to allow the boat to land. But when-- once the boat was heading back to, to Europe there began a debate in the Jewish community which is still going on today. There were editorials in the "Jewish Daily Forward" and other Jewish media about what at least editorialist referred to as the shameful conduct of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee. But Dr. Afoumado mentioned Lawrence Berenson who was charged with negotiating with the Cuban Government and President Bierut at one point said alright give us 500 dollars per St. Louis passenger or a total of 453,000 dollars and we will allow them to land. And Lawrence Berenson came back and said well, I think this is a little bit of Latin American horse trading. So I will offer 443,000. In other words 10,000 dollars less and at that President Bierut was-- felt insulted and said alright, the negotiations are over. The St. Louis must leave Cuban waters tomorrow. So for a figure of 10,000 dollars or 11 dollars per passenger those negotiations broke down. So even then there was debate within the Jewish community as to whether or not everything proper had been done. >> Marvin Kalb: Thank you Martin very much. The remarkable thing for me and I'm sure many others about the St. Louis story is that if you examine the American media throughout the course of World War II editors did know what was going on in Europe. Very little of it did appear in the press and I did a study once of the "New York Times" coverage throughout World War II and what is remarkable is that the "New York Times" a New York paper owned by the Sulzberger family, did its very best to bury the story when they had information that a million and a half Jews had been killed, information that was very reliable, came from good sources in Switzerland, passed on from London to New York at that time the information was there; that's a front page story. It was put on page 17 and lowered to three or four paragraphs. There's something not only about the mood of the American people, which Martin had referred to in various polling data, but what is that the media reflecting the mood of the American people was actually doing? It was not its most glorious day. But I have a feeling that here at the Library of Congress we've hit a glorious moment. And I want to thank it and I want to thank our panel very much for participating. Thank you all. [ Applause ] >> Gail Shirazi: Thank you all. If we can wait one minute. She was on the ship as a very young baby and would like to say-- >> Sorry by way of defense of the United States, and I'm a very proud citizen of the United States by choice, I would like to commend Congress for finally up to 70 years passing a resolution that apologizes to St. Louis survivors for having turned us away in 1939. So I guess maybe the United States saw its ways and found it in their power to apologize. And I thank you all and the document is in the Library of Congress. [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.