>> Larry Appelbaum: My name is Larry Appelbaum from the Music Division at the Library of Congress. It is with great pleasure that I'm sitting next to Andrew White best known as a saxophonist, oboist, English hornist, electric bassist and the most voluminously self-produced artist in the history of jazz. Andrew White, good to see you again. >> Andrew White: Good to see you again, in the history of music. >> Larry Appelbaum: In the history of music? >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Wow. That's a big, that's a bold plan. >> Andrew White: Well, you know anybody else? >> Larry Appelbaum: I can't, nobody else comes to mind. >> Andrew White: Nobody. That's why I say it, yeah. Of course, I always say if you know somebody else who's surpassed me in that type of output, tell me and I'll shut up. >> Larry Appelbaum: They got a long way to go. >> Andrew White: Yes, indeed. They do. [Chuckles]. >> Larry Appelbaum: We're going to get into all that. We're going to talk about Andrew's music and your life and music. But first, I want to establish some basic facts. You were born when and where? >> Andrew White: September the 6th, 1942. I was born in Washington, DC. >> Larry Appelbaum: Which hospital? >> Andrew White: Adams Hospital. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. >> Andrew White: And my family moved to Covington, Kentucky. I think I was at the age of two or three. We were there for like three years and then we moved to Nashville Tennessee and I did most of my growing up there. I went to public schools, finished high school in Nashville. >> Larry Appelbaum: Now, even before we get to Nashville, I want to ask you about your parents? What were their names? >> Andrew White: Yeah. Andrew Nathaniel White, Jr. is my father. He was a minister and Edith Burrell White was my mother. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did she work? >> Andrew White: Yeah. She was, she's from Washington DC and she acted as my father's secretary for the bulk of their career in religion. He was a minister and she was his secretary for many, many years. And I can't recall when she retired but he went on and then he became a special assistant to the Mayor of Nashville in his later years. Of course, I cover all of this in my autobiography Everybody Loves the Sugar, the book which was published in September of 2001, 840 pages. It is the largest autobiography in the history of music, and I'm very proud of it, and it got all the information you want to know about the details growing up in Covington, Kentucky and Nashville, Tennessee are all here and starting out in music and everything. >> Larry Appelbaum: Well, here's one thing I don't think you addressed in the book. >> Andrew White: Mm-hm. >> Larry Appelbaum: Which qualities did you get from your father and which did you get from your mother? >> Andrew White: Well, I think it's a combination of both because they were pretty much similar in everything. Now, my father nicknamed my mother IBM mind, IBM mind. And she called him a free spirit. So, between the two, I have come out the way I turned out. But I can easily point to many of my characteristics that come from either or the two of them. >> Larry Appelbaum: Was it a strict upbringing? >> Andrew White: Strict, how you mean? Because of religion? >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah, you're a preacher's kid. >> Andrew White: Yeah, you're right. I'm the epitome of the PK syndrome. However, it's sort of cryptic in a way how I've been able to internalize the eternal conflict of a preacher's kid, and make it work to my benefit. I've done, I brag on that. >> Larry Appelbaum: For those who are not PK's, what does that really mean? >> Andrew White: Well, you're under -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Preacher's Kid Syndrome. >> Andrew White: Yeah. The Preacher's Kids syndrome, you're under an enormous pressure to be good all the time. And this creates I think a quagmire for you because you, just like anybody else, you got the same urges, temptations, and everything else but you have to somewhat suppress all of that, unless you are the self-proclaimed born fool that I profess to be at around age eight. So, nobody really ever expected anything of me [chuckle] for my whole life. >> Larry Appelbaum: How did that manifest, this fool? How did it emerge? >> Andrew White: Well, I don't know. Is this an x-ray taped or what we're doing? >> Larry Appelbaum: You can let loose, let it fly. >> Andrew White: I have a section here that tells the story about me trying to do sexual things with my second grade teacher. And of course I had the daylights slapped out of me for that. But it goes back that far, the second grade. She was a very beautiful woman and I couldn't resist, you know. And as to how I knew what to do and what and how so and so forth, I don't know. I can't remember that far back. >> Larry Appelbaum: You were precocious? >> Andrew White: That's what, well, some people use that term, yeah. I don't particularly agree with that but maybe that's what it was at that age. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. Okay. Are you still -- [inaudible] >> Andrew White: Yes, I'm the worst. I'm the worst, born fool. Yeah, I'm the worst born fool you'll probably ever encounter. Now, most of that or all of that comes out in all of my artistic work. >> Larry Appelbaum: How so? >> Andrew White: How so? Well, first of all, I'm a provocateur as an artist, and the energy that it takes to be that way is manifested in all of my Andrew's Music Catalogue. It's now 2900, over 2900 products in this catalog. I've managed to express all of those parameters of my personality through my artistic work, mainly in music. But I'm getting more and more famous for my writings like this, and we've published over 50 books now. And all of that is expressed in all of those books. And, but all of that is tempered with the religious background that I grew up in, so to speak. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, before we leave Washington in your earliest years, where did your family live in DC? Do you know? >> Andrew White: I don't remember now, but I think it was in Southeast somewhere, near railroad track. I have heard, I vaguely remember that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. So, do you remember your first encounter with music? The things that really -- >> Andrew White: The earliest thing that I remember took place in Covington, Kentucky. This was before television and I remember hearing a big band on the radio, and I made a band stand and trombone instrument on my own. I remember doing that. And that may have been the kick-off for me. But I do remember that and I can't recall the blossoming of the indulgence in music that far back, but I'm sure it was like that because I just took off. >> Larry Appelbaum: Was there a piano at home? >> Andrew White: In Covington, I can't remember that but we did -- >> Larry Appelbaum: How about in Nashville? >> Andrew White: in Nashville, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: You had a piano. >> Andrew White: Because my father played piano and my mother did some as well but he did a lot more because as a minister he used to play in church, and sing. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, you knew that repertoire pretty well? >> Andrew White: Not by name, yeah. And I don't remember it all now but yeah. I was quite the witness, so to speak, to the church music. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: See, I wonder whether the feeling that you get from church music -- >> Andrew White: Mm-hm. >> Larry Appelbaum: Is it the same feeling you get from say blues or from jazz? >> Andrew White: Ah, well, I can't say personally, personally I can't say because all of it is the same for me and I play all across the spectrum. I play classical music, jazz music, rock and roll music, religious music, I've done all of that. And there seems to be some involuntary stylistic virtue, for me, that's indigenous to each particular genre of music. And therefore, I've always thought of myself as a purist, when it comes to at least my capabilities or functioning as a purist. I do hybridize quite a bit, but that's all in my own will. It's not involuntary on my part. I mean, I'm totally in control of all of that, to the point of where when I was between 1968 and 1970, I was electric bass player for Stevie Wonder, and concurrently, I was the principal oboist for the American Ballet Theater in New York. Nobody ever knew the difference in terms of what I did on the days off. >> Larry Appelbaum: But did you approach those two jobs the same way? >> Andrew White: You mean, professionally? Yes. Yes, I did, professionally. >> Larry Appelbaum: Just in terms of discipline or in terms of [inaudible] the role, the right role? >> Andrew White: Yeah, right. Exactly that. And of course I had education, profound education in music at that point. And that had happening while I was a student at Harvard University because I was playing with the JFK Quintet for my first three years of Howard University as well as being an A student and a Major in Music Theory. So, I had the rigors of classical music as a student and I had the jazz thing as a member of the JFK Quintet, and they were totally separate. >> Larry Appelbaum: Now, I know you have a strong drive to continue learning. I mean, this is an important thing. Nobody ever knows everything. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: So you, a creative artist is always learning. But you must've had good teachers in the very beginning to start you on the path. >> Andrew White: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've had many teachers and -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Who are they in the beginning? >> Andrew White: Mr. John Colin Reed. [ Inaudible ] >> Andrew White: No, he's in Nashville. Yeah. Nashville. I was with him from the 5th grade all the way through the 11th grade. And then, he became a roving band director in my 11th grade. And then I had Mr. Leonard Morton for my senior year. And I've had a litany of private teachers. And especially as an oboe player, I was the last, as far as I know, I've been told, I was last student of Marcel Tabuteau. I only had one lesson, it was a four hour lesson with him while I was a student at the Paris Conservatory in Paris. It was in January 1965 and he passed shortly after that. But I've had all the other oboe teachers, very famous. They're all listed in here. >> Larry Appelbaum: Can you say what he taught you? >> Andrew White: Tabuteau? By the time I got to him he was a legend. But the main thing I learned from Tabuteau was humility. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: Because I knew who he was and he was just giving me some [inaudible], you know? >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah, but who was he really? I mean, he was [inaudible] >> Andrew White: Well, Tabuteau was the founder of the American School of Oboe Playing, school meaning style. >> Larry Appelbaum: Mm-hm. >> Andrew White: And he was a big wig at the Curtis Institute of Music both in oboe pedagogy and chamber music. And he was the principal oboist with Philadelphia orchestra for -- >> Larry Appelbaum: It's not a bad thing. >> Andrew White: -- 36 or 40 years or something like that. So, and he was very famous for his uniqueness and individuality as a soloist as well as a pedagogue. And so, I was studying at the Paris Conservatory from September of 1964 to June of 65. He came to Paris in 65 to pick out some, in January of 65 to pick out some oboes for some American players. And I had forgotten how I found out about that but I wrote him a letter where he lived at the time and he answered me back. I've got his answer letter >> Larry Appelbaum: You still have it? >> Andrew White: In my museum. Oh, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Yes, in my museum. And we set up a time and I went to his hotel and lucky me, the French were having one of the famous 'greves' or they call it a strike. We call it a strike. They were having a famous strike on that day that I met with him and electricity went out in that part of Paris, as well. And so, the next thing, you know, I'm looking up and it's four hours later and he gave me his lecture on, I've forgotten the name of the system now but it's all in here in the Sugar book here. >> Larry Appelbaum: A system of fingering? >> Andrew White: No, it's not finger, dynamics. He did that and he did some gymnastics for me which I'm still trying to understand today [chuckle]. >> Larry Appelbaum: These are exercises? When you say gymnastics? >> Andrew White: Yeah, yeah. Well, he slurred from the next to the lowest note on the oboe to an optimal high C on the oboe without making any [inaudible] adjustment or anything. That was like magic to me, and I was only 22 years of age at the time. So, I just sat there with my eyes open, my mouth open looking at that, you know. And he taught me about reed making. He says, what you have there is not a reed as we know it, R-E-E-D. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: He said, no, that's like an R-E-A-D or an R-E-I-D, but it's not a reed. >> Larry Appelbaum: You literally have to customize your reeds when you're playing? >> Andrew White: Yes, you make your own reeds. >> Larry Appelbaum: And these comes from cane? >> Andrew White: Bamboo. >> Larry Appelbaum: Bamboo. >> Andrew White: And so, he made a reed for me at that lesson and I can't describe the reaction I had when I played it but it did everything. It was like magical. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, that shapes your sound. >> Andrew White: Yeah, it does. For every oboe player, it does, yeah. And you can go the other route and deal with commercial reeds, you know, but I don't know anybody who does that. The same way with bassoon and all of the double reed instruments, sooner or later you're going to have to make your own reeds because it's such a personal part of that expression and it's very, very difficult. And it's, I don't, I'm not sure how to say it but I narrowed it down to being nine hours' worth of legitimate usage, after that -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Per reed? >> Andrew White: Per reed. At least I got that. I'm sure many of my colleagues didn't have nine hours, but I was able to get nine hours. And, of course, that didn't mean that much when I was working as an oboe player because of rigors of rehearsing and practicing and working, are very demanding on shaved bamboo cane. So, it just won't last. >> Larry Appelbaum: Was oboe your first instrument? >> Andrew White: No, that was my second instrument. My first instrument was soprano saxophone. And then I moved to alto saxophone in the seventh grade. I started the oboe in the eighth grade. I played the bassoon in the 10th grade. I started the upright bass in the 10th grade and English horn in the 11th grade. >> Larry Appelbaum: Now, the saxophone, you can especially when you're young, preteen or teenager, you can attract girls when you're playing saxophone. >> Andrew White: This is true. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: But what about oboe, and what led you to oboe, bassoon, and so on? >> Andrew White: Yeah. Well, first of all, John Reed said I was the only one of our bunch who had the aptitude for it. So, he put me on it like that. >> Larry Appelbaum: What do you think that means? The aptitude? >> Andrew White: I was the only one bright enough. >> Larry Appelbaum: Uh-huh. >> Andrew White: I had enough brains. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: And evidently he had picked up something about my character and the [inaudible] of the preacher's kid syndrome, and the two just made it so that -- and I had good grades in school, I was talented and smart and all of that. So, he put me on the oboe and I took to it like a duck takes to water. I had a natural proclivity for that level of tension and achievement. And so, I went ahead with it and the rest is history [laughs]. >> Larry Appelbaum: For the saxophone, did you play in the marching band? >> Andrew White: Yeah, I did everything with it, concert band, marching band and my first gig as playing jazz was in the seventh grade. It was a Halloween party at my junior high school. That was my first gig, I made $3, and -- >> Larry Appelbaum: So, this would be mid-fifties late fifties? >> Andrew White: Yeah, mid-fifties around 55. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, you were playing the popular songs of the day? >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: And how did you learn to improvise? >> Andrew White: That's all in here too. I tell you, there was something very catalytic about my improvising up to a point I didn't understand what it meant. I had people around me, you know, I didn't understand what it meant but I could feel something. And then, we had a talent show at Johnson Elementary School. This was while I was in the seventh grade and I played in a little jazz combo on that talent show and the tune was Perdido. You know Perdido? [Hums a tune.] >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Okay. There's a little of figure in it, there's this [hums a tune]. Okay. We rehearsed that and everything. I felt secure. But when the time came to do the show, I froze. And I was supposed to improvise a solo. I could not improvise. That's when I found that I could not improvise because I immediately went to play in that figure, and I did that for the first eight bars. And then, the second bar, second 8 bars came up and I couldn't improvise. So, I played it there, and I don't remember what I did in the bridge to the tune but when the last eight bars came up, I couldn't improvise and I went on back and did [hums a tune]. So, if I did that for -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Johnny One Note. >> Andrew White: Johnny One Note. I was the epitome of Johnny One Note. But I had a feeling, I had a feeling as to what I was not doing, but I didn't know how to express it. I was only like, what, 12 years old or something like that. But that night, when I got home, I stayed up all night long. And that the next morning I was an improviser playing like I play it now. >> Larry Appelbaum: Would you sit down with a recording? >> Andrew White: No, no records. I don't know what, I don't remember what I did but I, the next morning I was improvising like I play it now. >> Larry Appelbaum: That seems kind of mystical. >> Andrew White: Yeah, it was. It was. But I didn't care because I was a born fool, see. So, I've had a lot, I've had a lot of occurrences like that in my life. And as they say, it's somewhat, it's a sign of prodigiousness or something like that, or genius or something like that. I don't particularly care. All I knew that the results have always been forthcoming for me like that. And then, that was in the seventh grade. And so, I've been doing like that ever since. Now, my first recording for Riverside with the JFK quintet, I had people making reference to that type of approach to improvising to me. And they would say things, including Cannonball Adderley, himself -- he produced the record -- he said things to me. And, of course, I was very [inaudible] at the time, and I just took it all in. I never said a word to him about. >> Larry Appelbaum: What did he say to you? >> Andrew White: He said man, you know, you got a thing. >> Larry Appelbaum: A thing. >> Andrew White: Between all that Coltrane stuff that you're doing and this and blah, blah, blah, and you sound like you're trying to play like me, too. And you're something, man, you know, you're something. I'm going to record you all. [Chuckle]. >> Larry Appelbaum: That's, that's heavy. >> Andrew White: And he did. >> Larry Appelbaum: Because he was a big name. >> Andrew White: Ahh, you are absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And I think in a sense he felt some sort of kindred spirit with me, and because we had similar technique and facility. But it all came from something catalytic happening for me five, six years earlier, that night in the seventh grade. It all just came together. Even before then, I remember in Carter Lawrence Elementary School in the fifth or sixth grade I believe, when I first started playing saxophone I was natural but I was only diatonic or only thought diatonically. I did not know about chromaticism. And so when I got to chromatic notes I would humor the nearest diatonic note. And always, if it's an F sharp I didn't know what F sharp meant, but I knew how to play F. And I didn't fit in with the rest of the kids. So, I would humor the F to go up to the sound of an F sharp. So, I did that all by [inaudible] until Mr. Reid showed me the difference one day. He expressed to me, you know, there's a note between the F and the G above it which was F sharp. And he showed me the fingering for F sharp and the rest was magical. Everything fell into place from then on. >> Larry Appelbaum: I think we can all agree that, you know, you'll have this prodigious, and always have seemed to have had this prodigies talent, but you used the word a few minutes ago. Genius, and I wonder if you think you're a genius? >> Andrew White: Oh, sure, sure, yeah. And like I said, you know -- >> Larry Appelbaum: What makes you say that? >> Andrew White: Well, I don't have to say anything because of this. This expresses all of my genius or enough of my genius for me to make a living. [Laughs] No, I -- >> Larry Appelbaum: I mean, what does a genius mean to you? It's not just being prolific. >> Andrew White: No, yeah, you're right. No, I don't have it with me but I carry it around in my wallet, the definition of genius versus talent. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. >> Andrew White: I have both. >> Larry Appelbaum: Uh-huh. >> Andrew White: But genius tends to do what it wants to do. Talent does what it can. And I have optimal control over both. And I can vacillate at will in the usage or the production of either and or. >> Larry Appelbaum: It's the second time you've used the word control. >> Andrew White: Mm-hm. >> Larry Appelbaum: And you certainly have control over your career, your music, your life presumably. And I wonder if you believe in fate? >> Andrew White: Sure. I invented that. >> Larry Appelbaum: You invented that? >> Andrew White: Yeah [laugh]. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, you think you were destined to be a musician? >> Andrew White: Yeah. And my father told me over and over all through my youth. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, he knew. >> Andrew White: He said you are a born musician. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did they encourage you? >> Andrew White: Not particularly. Not [inaudible] in a sense but he and my mother both were very, very strong supporters of me and keeping me on the right track and everything. And somebody asked John Reed about me. How do you teach somebody like that? And John Reed you don't teach them, you steer them. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: So, I have steering off from the beginning. So, yeah, evidently there was something that happened with John Reed. He was impressed with something about me when he first started me out in the fifth grade or the fourth grade, it's all in here. And he had steered me all the way through high school. But he never taught to me. >> Larry Appelbaum: Have you ever encountered someone like yourself? >> Andrew White: Similarly, yeah. Well, the closest to myself would be a savant. There's somebody who just, you know what a savant is? >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah, but -- >> Andrew White: I've met several of them, yeah. But they can't, most of those people are not even, they can't function in a society. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: But I've been able to do what I think of is magic and miracles from the very things that they cannot do as savants. So, I have some, I think I have some savantism in me. And I've been able to use it and utilize it and capitalize on it. But I've seen several savants in the, but of course, to myself, I always say so what? Because they can't work, you know, they can't, you know, all they can do is what you see and they can't talk about it, you know. It's great. I love to watch it. Yeah, I never engaged anybody. This is the first time I've ever engaged on a level that we talking now. I never talked about it. But there are several things that I can do between genius and talent that I never discussed with anybody. A lot of things only call for talent. A lot of things only called for genius. But mainly, there are a lot of things that only tolerate genius. >> Larry Appelbaum: For example. >> Andrew White: For example, my work as a transcriber. I've had several transcribers for years who ask me this and that, and so on and so forth. And I won't engage them because I know they can't internalize. And, when I was younger I was approached about that, and I didn't know any better, and I would say something to somebody. And the next thing I know a whole Pandora's box would be open about questions and all like this and disputes, and they want to make me be wrong about what I'm saying which I had just done. Well, that was very fatiguing for me. >> Larry Appelbaum: Some people are like that. >> Andrew White: A lot of people are like that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah, unfortunately. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: But then, this is another point I've been meaning to ask you about because you were as well-known for your transcriptions as anything. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Even though you do all these other things in addition. So let's focus a little bit on, first of all, for our non-musicians who may be watching this, what exactly is a transcription? How do you choose whose music or who's solo to transcribe, and what is the point of it? What does somebody learn when you're [inaudible] transcription? >> Andrew White: Well, the first thing that's the most relevant to what's happening in our lives today is that the transcription is very expensive to produce. And so, many projects that require a transcription never get done because there's no budget for it. So, I did it, my work with the Coltrane, for instance, I did that. And I've had people that ever since I started publishing my solos back in 1973, that's 43 years ago. Where did you get the money to do that? You know, and I never -- ain't no money, you just do it. And I was inspired to start out doing that, you know. And I was able to couple my inspiration and my natural resources, genius, et cetera to do everything in a timely fashion. That's the genius of it. Anybody can sit there and plug, you know, but if it's not timely, well then, it's not going to offer any economic soundness or feasibility. It won't be relevant to anything. >> Larry Appelbaum: Right. >> Andrew White: You see. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, but can you just explain to us what it is you're doing? What is a transcription? >> Andrew White: Yeah, you're right. Well, what we're talking about is writing music down from recordings. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. >> Andrew White: Yeah, that's one meaning of transcript. Transcripts, that's a broad term and it has many different meanings according to its context. You have a legal definition of transcript, that one thing. And then an artistic definition of it like what we're talking about now is another. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, in a sense it's like a courtroom reporter who writes them out? >> Andrew White: Yeah, they're transcribing what they hear. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. So, you're doing that with music? >> Andrew White: With music, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: The notes or is there more to [inaudible]. >> Andrew White: You got the notes, the pitches, the notes, the rhythms, that's all a part of. And then, in my case especially being commercial-minded, what's the best way to convey this music that can make it marketable. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: You see. So, editorializing in a sense. So, I know how to editorialize it while I'm transcribing, because I have a commercial goal in mind for the final transcription product. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: It is a product. I wanted to say project, but it's a product, you see? So, there're going to be certain things you write, certain ways and so on and so forth. And in my treatise on transcription, I have a section there where I show nine different ways I believe to write one phrase. You see, because you're dealing with writing music down from a mechanical source, at that time it was vinyl and tape. And many things, well, for instance, I say it in the same treatise. A transcription is like a prism. It appears differently each time you encounter it. So, you have to editorialize what you're doing. I do, I editorialize what I'm doing while I'm doing it. Otherwise, you can be sitting there bickering for months on end because you can go to bed after transcribing something at 11 o'clock at night and get up in the morning and look at it and say, did I write that? >> Larry Appelbaum: Mm-hm. >> Andrew White: You know. And it won't be for any great profound reason. It'll just be because the way you heard it that time at 11 o'clock at night is different from what you see when you look at it the next morning. So, you have to have a sort of a consensual type of approach to doing that kind of work. Otherwise, you will be sitting there. I mean, people have told me that. You will be sitting there trying to deliberate is it right or wrong, or is it the best way to present it? And I have another section in the book called [inaudible] alternative transcription, you know, where you want to spend time on the phrase and you have to end up one way or the other because publication will only take one final version. And no matter how intimate you feel with two versions at the minimum, you can only use one. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: Commercially speaking. A footnote somewhere, you might be able to do that. But if you do that more than once or too many times, you confuse your consumer and he won't buy your transcription. >> Larry Appelbaum: When it comes to this kind of work, are you a perfectionist? >> Andrew White: Yeah. Yeah. I don't like to say I am but I am. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: And so, because it's easy to go back and revise or correct or shade things a bit differently, how do you know when you're done? >> Andrew White: First of all, transcription, legally and professionally is a music service. It is not an art. What I do is artfully done but it is a music service. So, if you're paying for a music service or you are being paid, you cannot sit there and self-indulge in the beauty of alteration. >> Larry Appelbaum: It's not like a composition? >> Andrew White: No, it ain't. It has nothing whatsoever to do with composition, you see. And then, to the point or to the extent that you want to try to empathize or to play [inaudible] the players music that you're writing down, you can sit there, but that's not economically sound because if it's a music service and you charge him by the bar, the note, the page or whatever, the money is going to run out quick while you're sitting there trying to be, what you call it, inspired. [chuckles]. It doesn't work that way. The project will never finish if you don't put some discipline within what you're doing. So, and it helps you to go to the transcription situation with some background in Music Theory, you see? And then, I'm an amateur acoustician, acoustics. Yeah, I'm an amateur. So, I can bring all of that into play while I'm working. And then, you got the tape that expands and contracts, and you've got vinyl that warps or whatever. You have all kinds of, what do you call them, inequities in the system that work against you all the time. So you have to be able to rationalize and work within those confines with all of those things going against you at the same time. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, it's interesting you described these transcriptions as a service, as a music service. >> Andrew White: Mm-hm. >> Larry Appelbaum: And I know you've dedicated lots of time to this and you've published 800? 600? >> Andrew White: Eight hundred forty Coltrane solos. >> Larry Appelbaum: Just Coltrane? >> Andrew White: But it's over, it's around 1300 altogether. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, what do you think a student gets from studying a transcription? >> Andrew White: The same thing that he can get from studying a composition. It's the act of being able to see and carry out the task of kinesthesis, even to the point of where you sit and finger while you're looking and hearing that's kinesthesis, you know. Get three things going at once and you can internalize that experience. But you need to be able to bring some historical perspective to the subject matter that you're dealing with, and a lot of young people today don't do that at all. There are people out here who are studying Coltrane transcriptions, who've never heard a Coltrane record, you know. They study transcriptions like they study compositions. They'll study a Johann Sebastian Bach, two-part envisioned for the piano and for this interaction with this finger, these fingers over here [inaudible] in any number of analytical levels they might deal with the compositions which are valid. None of them are valid with studying transcriptions, because first of all, compositions are composed. Somebody sits down with a paper and pencil. A transcript like Coltrane, you know, these are the improvisers. The values put into their effort do not have anything to do with somebody who's composing music, that's all meshed now. So, we have people studying transcriptions and some famous Coltrane solos and everything, like they study a Beethoven symphony, and it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything. Because look at them when they get ready to play after they've internalized the music. There is no transcription that I know of or nobody, I should say, there's nobody's improvised solo that they just thought up on the spot that carries the compositional validity, intent and design of somebody who sat down with a paper and pencil. What's the guy's name? Lud, I call him Ludy V, Ludwig van Beethoven. >> Larry Appelbaum: I heard of him. >> Andrew White: He's got a, he had a system that they call it the sketchbook approach, you see? And he would sit down and hone his music as a composer until it was airtight. And there wouldn't be anything you could do with it after it was done, because he had spent so much time composing it. Well, you can't say that about many improvisations that you hear. >> Larry Appelbaum: They say Beethoven was a great improviser. >> Andrew White: I know. But he sat down with the paper and pencil. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: He had that option, you know. >> Larry Appelbaum: So does -- >> Andrew White: All composers had that -- they're sitting there and they can go back and second guess themselves and do whatever and improvise, they can't do that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. >> Andrew White: He does whatever he does one time and that's it. Now, that presupposes what he comes to the situation with. But that's the process, that's the difference in the process. It's gone after you, Eric Dolphy said on his own record, is gone, music is gone [laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: It's in the air. >> Andrew White: It's in the air, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, of all the people you could have chosen to transcribe or all the solos by all the musicians you could have chosen, why Coltrane? And what particular challenge does Coltrane present to the transcriber? >> Andrew White: Yeah, Coltrane -- to the transcriber or just the element of inspiration that made me sit down and want to do it? >> Larry Appelbaum: Well, let's try both of these things. >> Andrew White: Okay. >> Larry Appelbaum: Let's start with the inspiration. >> Andrew White: For me, the inspiration, the first Coltrane record I ever heard was Miles, Miles Davis' Around Midnight. And guy gave me the record and said, listen, you want to hear a saxophone play, listen to this. So, I heard the first five cuts and then he got to Dear Old Stockholm, which is the last cut on the record. And I was impressed. He'd been sounding good all through that record, but when the Dear Old Stockholm solo he has, he plays two choruses, and each chorus has a two-bar break in front of it. So, I listened to his first chorus with the break. But then, when the second chorus came, at the first, the second break came in, that was it for me. I didn't believe. I'd never heard any level of unorthodoxure [assumed spelling], that approach, what he played on that break going into the second chorus. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you actually analyze it? Can you say what it is he did? >> Andrew White: Yeah, it was totally out of character. The first measure at least it's two bar break. The first measure is totally out of character. And as a young fellow, I was about 14 years old. I had been studying classical music as well, you know. And so, nothing that he did in that measure gelled with what I knew about process, inspiration, nerve, gall, any of that. It just took me out and it was the tickler of my tuner that [chuckles]that has carried me to today at age 74. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. >> Andrew White: So, if it happened at age 14, I've been living with that for 60 years. That ain't bad when you're talking about something that inspires you to do something. So, on the strength of what I heard, and I didn't hear the end of that second chorus. And immediately, as soon as soon as his solo was finished, I stopped the record before the record was finished. And I went back and got my manuscript book and everything, and started with that break, and I wrote that break. And then, the second chorus and I went back and did the first chorus. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, literally you'll pick up the needle and drop it and then keep doing that till you get the next four bars. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Yeah. And so, that that was my first Coltrane solo. And that's what, I said [inaudible], and you know what? Out of all of the 840 solos that I've transcribed and published, that's the only time he ever did that or anything close to it. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: And that's magical from an artistic perspective. And what I did was transcription as just [inaudible]. I said, what in the world is he doing? And so, I went back and played it and wrote it down to look. That's how I got started transcribing Coltrane solo. And then, from then on, I said that was the tickle that tickled my tuner. I did the rest of the five solos from that record. And then, I started, you know, anything that I could get that had Coltrane on, [chuckles] I would write those solos, just to see what this guy's going to do. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: And I had the same experience when I used to hear him play, you know, he used to work around the corner from the JFK Quintet. >> Larry Appelbaum: JFK was at Bohemian Cab? >> Andrew White: Right. >> Larry Appelbaum: And he worked at A Bars [assumed spelling]? >> Andrew White: A Bars. That's two blocks away and on my breaks I go around there and listen to him, and I heard a whole lot of Coltrane during that time because I go around there. And at least twice when he was working there the JFK quintet was sharing the bill with Shirley Horn, and she was notorious for starting late, ending late and taking a long intermissions. So, it was easy for me to like, go around there and hear Trane for some time an hour and a half to two hours [laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you tell him that you were transcribing his solo? >> Andrew White: I did. My one definitive meeting with him, I just said, he looked at me as if I had a question. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you show it to him? >> Andrew White: I did send him a copy of one of his solos, yeah. But, when I first met him I said Mr. Coltrane, I have been transcribing and studying your solos. And there's something I should be asking you, but I don't know what it is. And he said, well, just keep on playing. And that was that. >> Larry Appelbaum: And he heard you? He heard you play? >> Andrew White: Oh, he heard me play. Yeah. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did he give you have any feedback? >> Andrew White: Oh, yeah, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: What did he say? >> Andrew White: He came one night. He was in there and we played, we played Giant steps and I played his solo while he was sitting there. And Ray Codrington, the trumpet player told me after that, after I played he said man, you should see Trane over in the corner. He's grinning like that [chuckles]. And then, after the set was over, well, it was the last set. He came up to me and he was grinning, he started laughing. He said, I hear you [inaudible] [chuckles]. >> Larry Appelbaum: Like Giant Steps? >> Andrew White: Like -- well, yeah. Well, he had heard the whole set, that whole set. And then, I think he may have come around there for some other nights or sets that we play. But that's the main one that I know. And then, he did, we didn't have a close relationship, but he sent hello's to me by anybody he knew was coming down DC. He said, say hello to Andrew for me. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: And he did that until he expired. But he was the one who sent Eric Dolphy to check me out. Eric Dolphy came down here for something and he told Trane he was coming and Trane said are you going down to DC? You go check out Andrew. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. >> Andrew White: Like that. And so, that's how I got to meet, Eric came and -- >> Larry Appelbaum: That would have been like '62? There was a jazz festival in '62. >> Andrew White: That's the one, that's the one, '62, yeah. And Eric Dolphy came and we spent some time together, just that one, the one night he was there, and it ended up that Eric Dolphy was the one that they got to take my place when I had to go to Tanglewood in the summer of '63. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, Dolphy played with the JFK Quintet? >> Andrew White: Yeah. He was my replacement. >> Larry Appelbaum: Uh-huh. >> Andrew White: For I don't know how long. I was going to Tanglewood for like nine weeks, and the Quintet worked most of that time I was gone. And Eric was the sub, but I don't know how long he was there. >> Larry Appelbaum: Could you sort of compare for me. It's remarkable that Dolphy played with Coltrane. They're such different players. >> Andrew White: Yeah, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: And yet, to my ears it worked. How about to your ear? >> Andrew White: [Laughing] Well, I'll say this in transcribing the solos -- >> Larry Appelbaum: You've transcribed Eric's solos? >> Andrew White: No. Well, I have an Eric Dolphy series. They're 11 solos in there but they don't have anything to do with his work with Coltrane. >> Larry Appelbaum: Got it. >> Andrew White: These are solos in his career or on his records. Yeah, there's a strong difference in Coltrane when Eric was working with him, strong difference. >> Larry Appelbaum: Can you say what that is? >> Andrew White: Yeah, it's more erratic and much more adventuresome when Eric was there. >> Larry Appelbaum: So they inspired each other? >> Andrew White: I don't, I've always wanted to think that but I don't know. I can't say because I'm too close to it, you know. All I can see is my experience in doing the music. But I've been flattered over all these years when people say, you know, they compare me to Eric Dolphy, and that goes all the way back to the night that he came to hear me play and at the end of the night he sat in and used my alto and he played, I think it was [inaudible] Ron Carter came in, and he was down for the same festival. And Ron was sitting in with the band and then I've played my solo. And then, I walked over to the side. Eric said, hey man, could I borrow your horn to get some of this? So, I loaned him my horn and he went, and he started playing. And I went around front to sit in front of the band stand next to Walter Booker, our bass player was Walter Booker, and he was sitting there, and I sat next to him. And then Eric came in and he started playing. And I had never heard anything like that from his records or anything. And then, Booker started laughing. He was laughing hysterically. He just had no concept of what was going on, and I just sat there and listened, you know? And things went on. They played a while. It was another dimension [inaudible] between Eric and Ron Carter, they had another thing. Joe Chambers was our drummer at the time. >> Larry Appelbaum: Mm. >> Andrew White: So he freed up to get with them, you know, and whatever went on went on. But at the end of the night, I went to get my horn from Eric and he started talking. He's very loquacious. Eric was very loquacious with me, at least. >> Larry Appelbaum: Well, that's different from the popular conception, the myth people have about Eric. >> Andrew White: Well, he was talking to me. and I listened to everybody, everybody who wanted to talk to me. I listened to him and he pulled out some manuscript paper and he wrote down a scale. And it was quite eerie to see him do that because it was a skill that I was using note for note for certain things, you know. And he was writing and talking and talking, writing and then he couldn't see me. Well, my eyes were about the fallout at the coincidence of what he was talking and writing, and what I was thinking at the same time. I was doing the same thing for about three months. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. >> Andrew White: And then, when he finished that he said, you know what man, you sound like you doing the same thing [chuckles]. And I was, well, I might doing the same thing, but I don't sound like you. >> Larry Appelbaum: But that's not a, or do you think it's a coincidence? >> Andrew White: Yes. That's all it is. >> Larry Appelbaum: This is not part of the fate? >> Andrew White: No, that's no, nothing fateful about that. No, that was just, to me, it was a coincidence but it has become part of the jazz folk lore. And it's been fate. >> Larry Appelbaum: And even though people think that both Coltrane and Eric were such a wild players, they were very aware of the chords, the changes, the harmonies. Even if Eric's writing out a synthetic scale, he's not like taking leave of his senses. He's actually playing extensions on what he understood. >> Andrew White: Hm-mm. >> Larry Appelbaum: And is that something that you understood? >> Andrew White: Yeah. I understood it all along but see I've always had an expanded acumen when it comes to the ideology of improvisation. And similar to what you said about fate, you know, things happen. And Eric said somewhere he's, yeah, he said it to me, he's quote unquote, you know like you slip up on a gang of notes. You know. >> Larry Appelbaum: That's poetic. >> Andrew White: Yeah. That's probably -- well, I know I knew exactly what he was talking about, you know? Well, you do that, but you don't know the extent of the velocity of it unless you transcribe it or hear it back on a recording or something. Because he was the only one who said it, when you, after you play music it goes off in the air. So unless you can figure out a way to retrieve some of the virtues of it for scrutiny, what can you say? Everything's going to be abstract, you know. >> Larry Appelbaum: But you use the phrase, some of those, I can't remember exactly the word you use. But I want to get at how you document, how you transcribe certain things that are extra musical, that is apart from the note. For example, Coltrane had such a pretty sound in the upper register, but how do you transcribe that sound, that intonation that? >> Andrew White: Yeah, you don't do that. What I have labeled my transcriptions as from the very beginning is urtext edition. >> Larry Appelbaum: Urtext. >> Andrew White: Yeah. I'm only responsible for the notes, the pitches, and the rhythms. What you just said, I have never dealt with that. I refuse to even try. Because as a publisher, I can't convey what you just felt when you said that. I cannot do that on a piece of paper. So I never even bothered to deal with that. I get off on it now. I have a ball. >> Larry Appelbaum: You hear it? >> Andrew White: I hear it. I hear it. And I respond to it just like everybody else, but there's nothing pragmatic about trying to express that in the transcription. Because first of all, you come into the area of encumbrance. And you cannot afford to encumber a publication. Because when you do that, you lose the attention of your consumer. If he's got, if a consumer has too much to digest through the printed page, he'll end up not dealing with any of it. >> Larry Appelbaum: I love how you used and associated the word velocity with Eric. Because that's, again, if you just look at the notes on paper, that's one thing. But to hear him do this in a way that's very expressive, and I don't know how you document that expression. >> Andrew White: You can't do that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: You can't do that. But the one thing what you expressing is that Eric was a conservatory-trained player. Right? Okay. So he brought another dimension to his whole thing that Coltrane did not have or try. See Coltrane, Coltrane, he was an urbanist like me. We both came off the block, you know. Street musicians. I have that element about me. That has nothing to do with me playing principal oboe with American Ballet Theater. Just talking about blues. >> Larry Appelbaum: Can you walk the bar? >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: And dance. You look at my pants. >> Larry Appelbaum: I'm dazzled. >> Andrew White: This is as much a part of me as my tuxedo for the Ballet Theater in the symphonies. You see, Trane didn't have that. So I'm able to separate this from the classical discipline, that Trane couldn't do because Trane was just what he was [laughing]. He was a bebopper to the bone all the way to the end, you know. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah, you shared this in a lecture I heard many years ago, decades ago. Where, even at his most free, he was still, his phrasing was still, and I assume that's what you meant, >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: The phrasing is still bebop-oriented, rooted in that. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: And you can hear, are there examples you can share? >> Andrew White: Sure. All the all of it, the main thing just for this purpose here is [hums a tune]. It's one of the four pieces in that Interstellar Space. >> With Rashid Ali? >> Yeah. I think it's the last one. In the key of D flat. It's the last one. [hums a tune]. And he'd been all over the place on those other three cuts, right? But when he got ready to get, to close out it -- [ Hums a Tune ] All of them are like that Elvin and McCoy, Jimmy. They were all like that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Were you like that? >> Andrew White: I'm still like that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah? >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: I mean are you rooted in bebop? >> Andrew White: Oh, I'm the worst offender. >> Larry Appelbaum: Really? >> Andrew White: Yeah [laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: Thank you. >> Andrew White: You're welcome. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yes. Nice. Because that's a language that not every generation has embraced. >> Andrew White: Right. I know. I know. And they suffer for it because [inaudible] they've been hitting on me for at least 45 years. I'm a man, you know. I thought, I said no, you were wrong, you know. And don't forget for a good 35 years, I used to close out regularly my concerts with Red Top. >> Larry Appelbaum: The Gene Ammons [inaudible]? >> Andrew White: Yeah. I always say, you know, regardless of what you heard me play all night long, wherever it may go, how in, out or whatever, at the end of the night is the blues. And I wish I had written Red Top. [ Larry Hums a Tune ] >> Andrew White: I wish I had written that tune. And I've got a good tune called Shacking Up. Same tempo and everything. Good and all, like that. But it's for the educational market. And I'm selling it as a combo chart, right? But you don't know how many times I've been tempted, for business reason, to play that. I've never played it in any of my bands. And it's good on the educational combo chart circuit [laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, Red Top has a great band vocal. You do? >> Andrew White: I remember that. Yeah, I remember that [inaudible] >> Larry Appelbaum: Does your band do it, like that? >> Andrew White: No. I just go, I just play it, you know, play the melody. I've recorded it like four times. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: You know, but that's just the way it is. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: And Trane was like that. You know, Miles David. All of those guys were blues players. >> Larry Appelbaum: What'd you think of Gene Ammons? Just as [inaudible] sound. >> Andrew White: Loved it. I grew up with that. I grew up with it. >> Larry Appelbaum: And all those guys came through DC, at some point? >> Andrew White: I don't know about DC. I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee. So I'm yeah. They used to come through Nashville. Yeah. [Inaudible] and Hank and, you know, Hank Carter offered me his job with Ray Charles. >> Larry Appelbaum: I didn't know that. >> Andrew White: He did. But I was here in college. I was at Howard University, I think in my second year. Hank was in town with Ray Charles and he came. They heard me in the Caverns, and we got to talking. And he asked me, he offered me that job. I said I can't do it. I'm student in Howard University. And he understood. Because I knew him from Nashville when he was a student at Tennessee State, you know. He was in Education. He may have been getting his master's degree while I was in high school. I was in high school. I went directly from high school in Nashville to college in Washington at Howard University. >> Larry Appelbaum: By the way, why Howard? >> Andrew White: My father had been there. I have wanted to go to Eastman and Juilliard but they neither one of them offered Saxophone Major. >> Larry Appelbaum: And this is what, 1960 or so? >> Andrew White: Yeah. I went to college in September of 60. Neither one of them offered Saxophone, and that's what I wanted to do. Howard didn't offer Saxophone either. But something happened. As an oboe player, I used that as some leverage to go wherever I was going because that was classical music and a classical instrument, so they thought. And it was a good companion to my scholarship as a young musicologist or theory major, at the time. So practically speaking, I got more bang for my book as a classical player, playing classical music on the oboe and studying majoring in music theory. So that's the reason why that happened. >> Larry Appelbaum: So this is long before there was a jazz studies major at Howard. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: What was the attitude at the university at that time in the early sixties towards jazz? >> Andrew White: [Laughing] You don't want to know. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah, I do. >> Andrew White: [Laughing] Well. Hey, this is all in here. They, I was the ultimate, what do you call it, a quagmire, for Howard. Because they couldn't stand me playing at the Caverns. >> Larry Appelbaum: Really? >> Andrew White: Right. No they didn't. No. I was an outcast and I even [inaudible] -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Did they try to stop you. >> Andrew White: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: How could they stop you? >> Andrew White: They couldn't. They tried. You asked me if they tried. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. >> Andrew White: Yeah. No, they couldn't stop me. But what really got bad was that the JFK Quintet started in January of '61 which was my second semester as a freshman. And we went straight through to October of '63. In April of '63 is when I, as an oboe player, won the WGMS, I think, scholarship to study at Tanglewood. >> Larry Appelbaum: Ah. >> Andrew White: And that was straight classical music. Right? Okay. Well, they didn't know how to react to that. Because I had Lyndon Johnson and Kennedy and all them people downtown, you know, championing me as a black oboe player, fixing to go to Tanglewood, studying with Ralph Gomberg and Louis [inaudible] and Boston Symphony, all like that. At the same time, I did that in April of '63 I was working six nights a week in the Caverns. You see? And so how they couldn't, they didn't, they couldn't deal with that. It was very difficult for them. And so people who had historically stopped speaking to me in halls because I wouldn't accept the offers to leave Caverns or whatever, they couldn't deal with that. It was very awkward for them, not me, because I'm born a fool, remember. It didn't bother me one bit. But I had, that's one of the most fertile PR and media periods in my career. Because it was coming from everywhere. The oboe player playing alto saxophone in the Caverns all the way around. The alto player that a [inaudible] discovered for Riverside records is fixing to go study oboe at Tanglewood. >> Larry Appelbaum: So, you were very well aware -- >> Andrew White: Oh, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Of what you represented at that time in those circles. >> Andrew White: Oh, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you [inaudible] -- >> Andrew White: Much more aware than anybody ever knew. See, because I grew up with a business background in Nashville. >> Larry Appelbaum: So you [inaudible]. >> Andrew White: Go ahead. >> Larry Appelbaum: I'm just curious whether you consciously attempted to exploit that representation in your favor. Did you curry that kind of reputation? >> Andrew White: Mm-hm. Both. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah? >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. And so it worked out to your benefit. >> Andrew White: Oh, it was going to do that because I was in total control of everything. I wasn't a novice and I wasn't to be exploited. I knew too much. >> Larry Appelbaum: But were for some people in certain circles, you were not just exceptional as a player, you were exceptional as a person occupying this this role that you were playing. Yes? >> Andrew White: But it's more than one role. See? That's the, what is it -- the arrow in the side. I was playing more, at least at a minimum two roles. Because see the whole time I was at Howard, I was doing very well as a student. >> Larry Appelbaum: Was there anybody who at Howard at that time who was supportive of you? >> Andrew White: No. >> Larry Appelbaum: Sterling Brown was there. >> Andrew White: He wasn't. He wasn't there. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, he wasn't there. >> Andrew White: He was before me. Well, well before me. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh I see. Yeah. There's that sort of lost period before they created, and who actually created the jazz program at Howard? >> Andrew White: That's a different story. And we should, we should not talk about that because I wasn't there. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. >> Andrew White: That came after me. I finished in '64. The jazz studies, I think, started around '68 or '69. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: I wasn't there. >> Larry Appelbaum: So let's pick up your story after you leave Howard. And you go to? >> Andrew White: Paris. >> Larry Appelbaum: Paris? >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: How did that happen? >> Andrew White: As an oboe player. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: You know, Mark, was it Dean Warner Lawson talked to me to audition for the John Hay Whitney foundation fellowship to go to college, I mean, to go to a graduate program after I finish. So I auditioned for the John Hay Whitney fellowship and got it. >> Larry Appelbaum: Do you remember what you played in your audition? >> Andrew White: Yeah, I do. One of the pieces was the first and second movement of the Handel C minor oboe sonata. There were three auditions that, you know, two in DC and one in New York. And I remember playing those two movements from that Handel C minor sonata. And I can't remember what the, other one may have been part of Howard Hanson's pastoral for oboe and piano. But I think he wrote that for symphony orchestra. And so anyway that was in the picture somewhere. And but in New York, it was just the two movements from the Handel Sonata. >> Larry Appelbaum: So you got it. >> Andrew White: Yeah, I got that. >> Larry Appelbaum: And you're on your way. >> Andrew White: I'm on my way. I went over there. And again the duality followed me over there because I was working viciously at Paris as a tenor player. More than an alto. Ben Benjamin at the Blue Note says, well, come on back with a tenor. [ Laughing ] >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: I don't think he would let Eric work in his club. >> Larry Appelbaum: Really? >> Andrew White: Yeah. And starting in January of 65, I started working heavily in the Blue Note. And the first, my first gig start in January '65 was three weeks straight. In the Blue. We had no off nights at the Blue Note. It's like Las Vegas. Three weeks I was working in the place for Ornette Coleman. He was supposed to be there, but he couldn't make it for some reason. So I ended up working three weeks in January of '65, and the rest became history. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you have an agent in those [inaudible]? >> Andrew White: No. >> Larry Appelbaum: So you get these gigs just from hustling? Maybe that's not the right word. >> Andrew White: Yeah, that's not the right word. Because they always called me. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. Okay. >> Andrew White: Mm-hm. >> Larry Appelbaum: And they heard about you from the two records of JFK Quintet? >> Andrew White: I can't say. I don't know. Because when I first started playing in Paris, I shook up the whole continent, you know. And there was a tenor player, nobody's ever heard of this guy, named [inaudible]. You ever heard of him, tenor player, a blind, French tenor player. Well, he -- he was getting hot in Europe, on the European scene. And he was the resident second band at the Blue Note. And so he had to be away. I don't know what he was doing before he contacted me. But he started contacting me to sub for him at the Blue Note in the second band. And I started doing that. And to make a long story short, I was in the Blue Note almost like a sickness [chuckle], up until the time I came back to the States. Because his career was taking off continentally. And I was in there. Every time he had to go out, he call me and I go over there and work. And that was great for me and him because he had freedom of mind, of thought, rather. He didn't have to worry about me because I was reliable. And the one reason I was, the main reason why I was reliable was because I was a student of the oboe at the Paris conservatory. So I was in school in Paris. >> Larry Appelbaum: And you were a disciplined person to begin with. >> Andrew White: As far as he was concerned the reliability took care of that. >> Larry Appelbaum: And that's being a professional. >> Andrew White: Yeah. But I don't even know whether he ever heard me play. >> Larry Appelbaum: No? >> Andrew White: I don't know. I don't know. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you make any recordings over there? >> Andrew White: No. I did a private recording for somebody. I don't know who that was. I don't remember. But I didn't do the regular thing. No. >> Larry Appelbaum: When you were in Paris first trip, when you go over to study, is that where you met your wife? >> Andrew White: Yeah. I met her in May of 1965. >> Larry Appelbaum: What was her circumstances? >> Andrew White: She, ironically, she was a student at a school around the corner from the Paris conservatory. But I met her through my friend Lloyd McNeill, flute player and painter. We were roommates over there. I met her through him. >> Larry Appelbaum: And Lloyd's from here. >> Andrew White: He's from here, from Washington. Yeah. And so that's the way that was. I met her, but I met her after I met my first or my Swedish fiancée. I was engaged to a girl from Sweden. I met her in December of 64. And so we were engaged. And while we were engaged, I met Jocelyn in May. And so when I left, when I left Paris to come back to the States, you remember the lady's name, what's the girl's name? Pierre Noel Painter. What's was the lady name? She's famous painter. Okay. Well she was she was on the SS France with Lloyd and me coming back here from France. And she remembered me. She taught at Howard. Lois Pierre Jones. That's it. Lois Pierre Noel Jones. She on the ship coming back, we hooked up in one of the restaurants there. And she looked at me she said, White? I said yeah. She said I didn't know, where you over? I said, yeah, I was over here, I was in Paris Conservatory, oh, okay. And Lloyd said, yeah look what else he was doing. And he took up both of my hands because I had engagement rings on both of these fingers [laughs] she looks at me, oh, White, what you're doing? And Lloyd said, he's engaged to two women. >> Larry Appelbaum: So how did you choose? >> Andrew White: Let's see. [ Inaudible ] Yeah. Well, we were all tight, you know. I was engaged to both of them. But it was, it was [inaudible] the Swedish girl. She, unbeknownst to me, to any great extent, she was a Swedish patriot. And she didn't like what was happening in the Vietnam War. So she wouldn't come here to marry me. And Jocelyn. Ironic, she came, Jocelyn. She knew, she heard about that or knew about it or whatever. And the next thing you know, she was over here. >> Larry Appelbaum: How long were you married? >> Andrew White: Forty-one years. >> Larry Appelbaum: Congratulations on that. >> Andrew White: Thank you very much. >> Larry Appelbaum: That's a big deal. >> Andrew White: She passed, Jocelyn passed on May 24th of 2011. And but she's still very much here. This is her blouse. You know, I honor her with this and other things, you know. Like she gave me these socks. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh yeah. I'm going to tell Dennis Gonzalez that's where you got those socks. >> Andrew White: No. No. No. >> Larry Appelbaum: No? >> Andrew White: No. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. Forgive my asking. Maybe this is too personal. But after 41 years, what do you miss most about her? >> Andrew White: I don't really miss anything. I have not started grieving. I don't know, I never went through the grief process and she's still very much with me. I haven't changed anything in the houses, you know. And I go visit her at the, in her, she's at Fort Lincoln Cemetery. I go out there and visit her. And then some, a lot her friends, good friends are good friends of mine as well. And whenever they come to town, they want to go out there and see her. And I take them. >> Larry Appelbaum: When you go to visit the grave site, do you talk to her? >> Andrew White: Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: What do you talk about? >> Andrew White: Everything. Just like she's right here. Same thing with my family in Nashville. My mother, father, and sister buried in Nashville. Every time I go down there, I go out there. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Talk to them, you know. >> Larry Appelbaum: I want to spend what time we have left this afternoon and talk a little bit about the jazz scene here in DC. For example, when you returned to DC after living in Nashville, those early years, can you sort of paint the picture of what the scene was like here? Who were, for example, who were the top dogs? >> Andrew White: Shirley Horn and Buck Hill, Calvin Jones, [inaudible], Billy Taylor, the bass player not the piano player. He'd gone. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: That's, it goes on. >> Larry Appelbaum: Is Webster Young here? >> Andrew White: Who? >> Larry Appelbaum: Webster Young. >> Andrew White: He, I can't remember whether he was here when I got here. But I did know him when he came back to live. >> Larry Appelbaum: John Malachi? >> Andrew White: John was here. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Was he teaching already? No? >> Andrew White: I don't remember whether he was teaching in that. But he was here working. Charlie Hampton. Rick Henderson. >> Larry Appelbaum: Dude Brown? >> Andrew White: Dude Brown. Yeah. Yeah. They were all here. >> Larry Appelbaum: I guess Frank Wess had already gone. >> Andrew White: He'd gone. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Charlie Rouse had already gone, or did he come back? >> Andrew White: Yeah, he'd gone, but he was coming back and forth. I never knew what his situation was. But yeah. But he was coming in and out. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. So there were lots of players here. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Where there places to play? In '60? I mean, you got the gig. How did you get the gig for example. >> Andrew White: At Caverns? >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you just talked to Tony Taylor, or -- >> Andrew White: No. Yeah, you're close. What happened. I came here in September of '60 and to shorten the story, my first important jam session was at the Caverns on a Saturday afternoon. And I tore the house up, right. And Tony was there. Tony Taylor. And he approached me right then. He said, can you come back here Monday night? I said, yes. I came back Monday night and what it was he wanted to see what the reaction would be to me with the paying audience. Because Saturday afternoon, the matinees were free, you know. I think you pay for the drinks but there was no cover. And so I came back and I played Monday night. And then he gave me all of the Monday nights for the rest of September, October, November, and December. I was the band leader, you know. I had pretty close personnel the whole time. Very little fluctuation but some. But at the end of December, he told me that starting January, Shirley Horn, Shirley Horn was the main, she was the headliner for the week, Tuesday through Sunday. Her contract was going to expire at the end of December. And he wanted to offer me the contract to start with my band, quote unquote my band, in January of 1961. And so that he, it was his idea to call it the JFK Quintet. And so that's when we started as under that title. >> Larry Appelbaum: And you knew those guys already? Ray and -- >> Andrew White: Yeah, because they had been playing with me during September, October, November, December on those Monday nights. >> Larry Appelbaum: And how did you get to be the leader? >> Andrew White: He, that's a good question. But I was, I was mainly the, I was also the organizer for those sessions on the Monday nights. And I got to be, I maybe I carry myself like a leader. And Tony picked it up, you know. But he approached me. I could, I had the feeling that he could tell that I was an organizer, as well as being able to play and everything. Because I was writing arrangements that I knew that the cats could play on the spot. On the Monday night jam. They didn't call it a jam session but it was an off-night band. And he saw that. Tony saw all of that. And so he's probably thinking, well, if he can do that for Monday night gig, he can probably do that for a six-night a week gig and we can go from there. And that's how we started in January. And we had built up a repertoire. But just on those Monday night encounters. >> Larry Appelbaum: Your tunes or everybody wrote? >> Andrew White: They were not. No, not my tunes. There were no originals. They were regular jazz standard thing, you know? And now the originals didn't start until the group started in January. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. >> Andrew White: And I have a Thursday night or part as part of the exhibit at my presentation, I have a copy of my very first copyright from March 1961. >> Larry Appelbaum: What's the tune? >> Andrew White: I don't remember. There were three in the group. >> Larry Appelbaum: Ah. >> Andrew White: Yeah. Yeah. But well, let's see. For the first recording, and this is Eugly's Tune, Ci Ci's Delight, and Delories. That's three right there. So on the very first record. >> Larry Appelbaum: So that JFK Quintet actually made two recordings. >> Andrew White: We actually made three. >> Larry Appelbaum: The first came out on CD was reissued. Was the second ever -- >> Andrew White: Yeah, there was another reissue about four years ago of the first two albums. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, both. >> Andrew White: Yeah. The third one has never come out. They told -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Who's got that? >> Andrew White: They have it. Whoever bought the Riverside Catalog. And they have told me that they would probably put that out after I die. >> Larry Appelbaum: I think it's probably Concorde's now. >> Andrew White: Oh, they gave it up. I bought them out. I bought it. Yeah. When they -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Then you should put it out. >> Andrew White: No. Well I didn't buy [inaudible] I just bought inventory. >> Larry Appelbaum: I see. >> Andrew White: Yeah. So I don't know who's got who did what after Concorde left. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard that third thing. >> Andrew White: It's not, it's not. >> Larry Appelbaum: Nobody has. >> Andrew White: Yeah. No, Keith Killgo has some tapes of copies of the date, but it never was a record. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. >> Andrew White: He used to play, he used to play one of those -- I had an arrangement of Love for Sale that we recorded. And he started playing that with his band. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: So did you, I clearly you had a long standing gig at Bohemian Caverns, but what other clubs did you play in DC? >> Andrew White: For me, that was it. >> Larry Appelbaum: That was it? You never played [inaudible]? >> Andrew White: No. >> Larry Appelbaum: Olivia's? Patio Lounge? >> Andrew White: No, that's. Olivia. I remember that was before I got here. I don't know whether it was going while I was here or not, but I never. >> Larry Appelbaum: Club Valley? >> Andrew White: No. >> Larry Appelbaum: No. None of those. I guess Blues Alley came along in the mid-sixties. >> Andrew White: I didn't play it until up in the 70s or early 80s. I'm not sure. >> Larry Appelbaum: So here's something -- 1960-61 you come here. You moved here from, I mean, Nashville is the South. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: And DC, in many respects, especially in those days, was a Southern city. >> Andrew White: Yeah. How integrated or segregated were things on or off the bandstand. >> Larry Appelbaum: Up here? I think they, I don't know, they were integrated because, well, [inaudible] played with Charlie Bird. And then there were other bands that had black people in them. But I never thought of it because the whole time I was in the Caverns, it was the same band except for the drummers. Billy Hart was the first one. Mickey Newman's the second one. And Joe Chambers was the third. And everybody else was the same for the whole two and a half years. >> Andrew White: Was the musicians union integrated or did they have separate locals? >> Larry Appelbaum: We had separate locals. The integration took place, I think, around 1967. >> Andrew White: Oh, that late. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Do you know how it, what that story is? How did it become integrated? >> Larry Appelbaum: Well, I've forgotten now. Because I wasn't here, you see. I was in, I went to Paris in September of '64. And then I was in Buffalo up until May of '67. So there was things going on here. I was a member of a local [inaudible] all the time I was not here. I kept my membership active. But I don't know what happened down here, but there was, I really don't remember all of it. But I know there was a huge problem in the fact that the unions were going to have to merge for whatever reasons. And the black people would be the losers because we would not be able to command the white scale, the pay scales in black community. We couldn't, the money was simply not there. So I don't know what happened. I know there was a lot of [inaudible] going on. >> Larry Appelbaum: Was [inaudible] considered a black community at that time? [Inaudible] Well, Bohemian Caverns. >> Andrew White: Yeah. Oh that was, yeah, that's -- >> Larry Appelbaum: That's a black Broadway [inaudible]. >> Andrew White: Yeah, they used to, they called it, with those three theaters in the Howard Theater. Yeah, that was considered, that was black. Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. So I guess, I was just curious about the community of musicians. People, were there racial attitudes, obstacles? >> Andrew White: Yeah. There's plenty. It was bad. It's still, it's still ain't that great now, you know. But everything was compounded when the unions merged because there are several gigs and opportunities that just evaporated because black people wouldn't pay, you know. And if you if the black union members, well, they did what they had to do to survive, you know? But they were outside of the union parameters. And so, I don't know. You have to talk to somebody who was in involved with that. I wasn't involved with that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Do you know who was? >> Andrew White: I can't remember now. Yeah. I can't remember now. Cause most of those guys are deceased. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Especially the band leaders. Rick Henderson, Charlie Hampton. And somebody named Gaines who had a band at the Howard theater for [inaudible] >> Larry Appelbaum: Was George Botts involved? >> Andrew White: Botts was, yeah. Botts and Calvin Jones. You think of the guys that you know, they were all involved. But I don't know the extent of it because I was another kind of a guy. And I let everybody know that. >> Larry Appelbaum: So you have been dealing with Tony Taylor at Bohemian Caverns. Was he the owner or just the booker? >> Andrew White: Co-owner. Angelo Alvino and Tony Taylor were the owners. >> Larry Appelbaum: Huh. >> Andrew White: Now, as far as I remember, it was mainly, business-wise it was Angelo. And Tony was taking care of the [inaudible], you know? What we knew, you could see him. Angelo wasn't there. >> Larry Appelbaum: So when you signed a contract, would it be, who would sign on the other end? >> Andrew White: I don't remember. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh. >> Andrew White: No. >> Larry Appelbaum: Did you keep any of that paperwork? >> Andrew White: Maybe? >> Larry Appelbaum: I mean, do you have an archive at home of your stuff? >> Andrew White: Yeah, but I don't know about that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Yeah. I don't I don't know about that. And that's a long time ago so I don't know. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. But it's fascinating. >> Andrew White: You're absolutely right. >> Larry Appelbaum: I mean that's the business of music. >> Andrew White: You're absolutely right. >> Larry Appelbaum: It's a whole different story. >> Andrew White: It's another story altogether. And it's not that pretty, you know, it ain't pretty at all, you know. And then, but I had a unique situation because I was playing classical music and I was mainly a New York musician -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: -- [chuckle] from the union perspective. >> Larry Appelbaum: So you were part of 802 also? >> Andrew White: Oh, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. >> Andrew White: And so but it was bad here in terms of black people trying to work because I remember there was a, you remember a band called The Young Senators? >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah that sounds familiar. >> Andrew White: Was that a black band or white band? >> Larry Appelbaum: I don't know. >> Andrew White: Well, okay. There was a white band that virtually took over a lot of the music that black bands were playing because they had already been making the white union requirement scales. They had already been doing it. So the black bands gradually just fell off of the scene. Because they couldn't get money for their gigs because the white boys were getting it. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hmm. >> Andrew White: And the money that the black bands were making was according to the black scale, was too low. >> Larry Appelbaum: Now we talked about something before, I know when you visited a few weeks ago, that in New York, surely in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, and in Chicago, a number of clubs were [inaudible] for many years. Maybe not so much in the 70s, 80s, 90s but certainly in the 40s, 50s, into the sixties. Do you think that was the case in Washington? >> Andrew White: I don't know. I've never thought about it because I never was involved with it to the extent where I would have that kind of contact with anybody. But like, the Caverns was my main thing. The issue never came up or presented itself to me. So I never knew. And didn't really care. Because on the level of business that you're talking about, it doesn't filter down to just plain entertainment, you know. Unless there's a lot of good size entertainment acts. I never thought of us, the Quintet, as a money-making venture. It was more of an artistic thing that was carteled by Tony. Tony was black. Angelo was white, you see, and so evidently Tony was pulling his own weight business-wise in order to keep us there for two and a half years. And then when we wore off, you know, he brought in Coltrane to work in our place. So evidently, something was going on that was well enough along the way for him to keep on doing that. >> Larry Appelbaum: In those days, and I'm talking about primarily the early to mid-60s and then later when you returned to DC after Paris. Were there people who played jazz on the radio? I know Willis Conover did some things, WWDC and WINX. But he mostly did the VOA stuff. Voice of America. But I can't think of anybody else in those years up until say, yeah, Lewis did stuff in the seventies. But can you think of anybody in the sixties who was playing jazz on the radio? >> Andrew White: Felix Grant. >> Larry Appelbaum: Felix Grant. Thank you for mentioning Felix. >> Andrew White: Well, now, for me, I'll just tell you Felix is the only DJ. Because from a business perspective, I did very well with Felix. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. Did he interview you? >> Andrew White: Oh yeah. Yeah. And we had a thing going, you know, because he had something to do with Latin American music or something like that, you know? >> Larry Appelbaum: He introduced bossa nova. >> Andrew White: Bossa nova, that's it. The Stan Getz Cats. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Yeah. He brought that along. But Felix made, I did real good business with Felix, you know. But he never knew how good a business I was doing until I told him one night. We were up at Howard University for a concert, a Coltrane concert. And he was the emcee. And after I played, I think, they had a house rhythm section for me of [inaudible], Ray Drummond and [inaudible]. So we had like four saxophone players out there to be featured with that rhythm section, right? And so it was Joe Ford, Gary Thomas from Baltimore. And Donald Harrison, I believe. And Dave Leeman. Anyway, after I finished, I was back in the dressing room, and Felix said, man, you put it on out there. I said, well, you know, I'm merchandise. Because I had announced before I left the bandstand, I said, I got about a thousand records back in the dressing room with the two tunes on it that I played on this on this concert. So you all want some, I'll meet you around in the lobby. I went around and I sold all my records, right. So I came back into the dressing room before I [inaudible]. And Felix said, how'd you do out there? I said, I don't know, man. I did it. All my records are gone. The only thing I can't complain about is the house rhythm section. So I ain't got to pay no band [laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: Nice. >> Andrew White: And Felix, said that's the way you look that? I said, well, how else you going to look at it? Its business. I had all the money and no band [laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: That's the way to go. >> Andrew White: That's the way to go. If you want to do that kind of thing, I don't do it all the time, but I did that. And that was the night when Felix, and we started having closer conversation. And he was a very big champion of mine with my records, you know? And, but the irony in that is that when he was on that AM station, he could play but so much music before he had to sell the dog food. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah, WMAL. >> Andrew White: Yeah. You know, so I and that's when I learned about playing, you know, records between dog food commercials. Because I did it with him. See, I'd be on his show and I get maybe two or three minutes of music on the air. So I ain't no artist no more. >> Larry Appelbaum: Well, but you you've managed to wear all these different hats throughout your career. >> Andrew White: No. But at that time, for that reason, I said I'm not an artist anymore if I got to look at it like this. Because he would sell a lot of records with the two minutes of my music that he played between the Colgate and the dog food. >> Larry Appelbaum: There were many years, every time, you know, if you took a taxicab in the evenings during the weeknights, taxi drivers all had Felix on the air. >> Andrew White: There you go. That was the whole thing. But see the sad thing about all of that is that the cats, the jazz cats, they never knew or understood what that meant. >> Larry Appelbaum: Hm. >> Andrew White: And besides not having records of their own, you know, and not having anybody working on their behalf as representation between them -- I can't say between them and the record companies because they didn't have record companies, you know. And they weren't making their own records. So I was the only one doing that especially to the extent that I was doing. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: So. That's a, that's a big thorn in the side of jazz, especially for local people. And Felix, well, he was gold, man. He was gold. You know, you could be sitting over here with [inaudible] playing music all night long, and he never sell one record. Felix is talking about dog food and Colgate. And man, I had people calling me up, and he and I couldn't announce my telephone number or address on his station. But they -- >> Larry Appelbaum: Unless you paid for it. Unless you paid for [inaudible]. >> Andrew White: I couldn't pay, you know. But they would find me. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, yeah. Good. >> You know. And they would come out to the house and buy records. And this went on for all the time he was over there at that radio station, you know. Now, ironically, when he went over to the school. That was -- >> Larry Appelbaum: WDCU [inaudible]. >> Andrew White: Duh. I never sold a record. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: He was there. >> Larry Appelbaum: [Inaudible] much smaller audience. >> Andrew White: No, that's not the point. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh? >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: What was the point? >> Andrew White: It's not a non-commercial station. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, I see. >> Andrew White: No dog food [laughing]. And we used to talk about that, man. >> Larry Appelbaum: Really? >> Andrew White: Felix and I, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Felix was something else. >> Andrew White: He knew business. He was a businessman. What all was over there with the AMU, I mean not AMU but the MAL, is that what it was? Yeah, that's a business. >> Larry Appelbaum: Well, he knew something about music, too. >> Andrew White: Well, that didn't concern me. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Because I wasn't playing bossa nova. >> q Yeah. I know we have just a few minutes left. And there's just so much I wanted, I mean I only got through a few of these questions. There's, let me close by asking you a couple things. First, your best and your worst gig that come to mind. >> Andrew White: No, no. I don't know. You might call me an optimist about that. But every gig I've ever had, I had an agenda when I went to it and optimized and maximized my opportunity to be there, and my appearance there. So I've never had a bad gig. >> Larry Appelbaum: That's quite a career. >> Andrew White: I know. I know. I never had a bad gig. >> Larry Appelbaum: Can you say what your best gig was? >> Andrew White: No. Because they were all the best. They all had different things to offer me. I think what you're getting at is that I had such a versatile uniqueness that I was able to capitalize on wherever I was, whenever I was, you know. I've had a lot of luck. For instance, when I was with Stevie Wonder and American Ballet Theater, I had a couple of very, very, very close calls. And I was able to pull them both off. For instance, the most famous one is when I was with Ballet Theater. We were in Chicago. And I think we finished work on the Thursday night. And then we had to be off Friday and Saturday because the border sheriff from Russia was going to be working where we normally work. So fluke. Steve Wonder people call me Thursday afternoon, want to know if I could work in the Howard University on Friday and University of Pennsylvania up in Pittsburgh on Saturday. And I did. I flew in here Friday morning, put down the oboe, picked up the bass. Worked at Howard University Friday night. Went up and took the plane, then, you know, took the plane up to the Pittsburgh Saturday, and worked up there Saturday night. Took the plane up there Sunday morning, came back here. Put down the bass, picked up the oboe. Went back to the airport and got on the plane. Went back to Chicago to meet the bus to go to a rehearsal for a matinee in an evening at Champagne Urbana University. That was close but it worked. Well, I had things like that happening for the whole time. You know, the first two Coltrane tributes I did it at Carnegie Hall, I was with the Fifth Dimension full time. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: And it worked out. I was able to do that. You know, the plane, it was another thing. It ain't like that now. I wouldn't book anything like that. >> Larry Appelbaum: What a way to make a living. Well, it just, I told you that I had recently read your book X-rated Band Stories. And there are a couple of stories in there about working for a leader who had a poor sense of direction and kept getting lost. [ Inaudible ] >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, you didn't name him in the book but now, now we know. >> Andrew White: He's deceased. [Laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, I see. Alright, well that's a funny, those are some funny stories. >> Andrew White: I know, I know. But you know they ain't funny when it's happening. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. They're funny because I can write them out, you know? What is it, what did I say in the composition or speaking, you know. I can make good stories out of them but, man, you're talking about some scared people. >> Andrew White: In hindsight [inaudible]. [ Laughing ] >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay, so let's wrap up by asking, just as a player, composer, publisher, writer, how do you measure success? >> Andrew White: I don't. I never have done that. Because several people have asked me, why or how did you start doing this? And so-and-so forth. I said I never did that. And I never really made a commitment to music in the sense that most people think you have to do in order to create a catalog like that. I've done very well because I've always been able to fulfill the ambitions and the services that have been bestowed upon me. And that goes all the way back to like the seventh grade in the junior high school. >> Larry Appelbaum: So more than 2500 products, self-produced products, I should say, of them which has sold the most? >> Andrew White: Oh, man. I'd have to sit -- huh? >> Larry Appelbaum: Do you have a sense of what is the best seller? >> Andrew White: No, because as soon as I answer something like that, I'll recall something to dispute it. Because, you know, it's, this is [inaudible] -- >> Larry Appelbaum: This is the transcriptions, or is it your recordings, or is it your essays, or you don't know? >> Andrew White: It might be transcriptions because there's so many of them. But I've done very well with everything, you know. And then so much of what happens business-wise, period, is cyclical and non-cyclical. So I don't sit down and try to predict anything. My main virtue is being able to be available to accommodate any kind of flush that comes in the marketplace. Now I will say Andrew's Music, by necessity as well as by judgment, is a large catalog, small inventory company. >> Larry Appelbaum: Okay. >> Andrew White: See that's why I've been able to put out so many products. I've got 63 sound recordings out, you know. For the most part, for the first 25 years of Andrew's Music, the inventories were medium to large. I was lucky that I could move that kind of inventory. As time, as the time has gone by, I don't know whether I could have done that now because the quantities that are needed for sales directly from me have dropped tremendously because of this whole telecom system that sells music and encroaches on what I'm doing, have done [inaudible]. >> Larry Appelbaum: You don't offer things for downloading. In fact -- >> Andrew White: Not that I wouldn't. >> Larry Appelbaum: You don't have a website. >> Andrew White: No, I don't have website. No. >> Larry Appelbaum: You don't use a computer. >> Andrew White: No. No. >> Larry Appelbaum: Well, it's all the more remarkable that you have managed to achieve such success doing it your way. >> Andrew White: Well, I understand that. And I appreciate you saying it, and I thank you very much for saying it. But I don't know whether that's true or not. Because see, I came to Washington in September of 1960, swaggering iconoclasm with idealism, destiny and intent and design in mind. >> Larry Appelbaum: Indubitably. >> Andrew White: Indubitably. So that's what. I put everything on that. And it's my uniqueness and individuality, my chicken alto sound which is over in into my tenor sound on as well. I used to call it Talking Turkey. But it's [chuckle] until I got [inaudible] man, that ain't no turkey, you doing it. And his wife, Elvin's wife, used to get up and she said, you making Elvin work too hard. >> Larry Appelbaum: Elvin Jones. >> Andrew White: Yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: Keiko. >> Andrew White: Keiko. You know. So I've always thought it was, it was my uniqueness and individuality and iconoclasm. I always I sit down and reflect on what you said a lot. I do that because I'm trying to figure out a way to give me a reason to go over there with the telecom and all of the modern stuff. But I don't hear of anybody saying that somebody is walking up to him and say, hey man. I like what you sounded like tonight. Can you [laugh] can I buy a record. Have you made a record? I don't hear anybody saying that. >> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah. >> Andrew White: Because they like what they called homogenized the marketplace of jazz signing artists, and so many people sound so much the same, that people they have different consumer practices now, in terms of buying a product like that. But I never had that problem, said what the world is wrong with him? Here let me got, let me buy two of them. One for my cousin. [Chuckle]. >> Larry Appelbaum: So even though you don't have a website, I think if people want to find you, all they have to do is use a search engine and look for Andrew's Music, Washington DC. And somewhere, there's going to be an article or something online that gives your address on South Dakota Avenue and your phone number. And you encourage people just to call you directly. >> Andrew White: They do. They do. >> Larry Appelbaum: They do. And then you'll send them a catalog and whatever and -- >> Andrew White: Oh yeah. That's the way it's done, you know. And I try not to say anything negative about telecommunications because I'm all over there. And they sample me on a lot of those websites where they played music. And it, what is it -- YouTube? They got a lot of my music on there. And they like, and they play a lot of my older records. They may play one cut. Somebody will call me up, and say I heard that so-and-so, and so on. You still sell that record? I say, yeah. >> Larry Appelbaum: So it's promotion. >> Andrew White: Well, to me, it's a sale. It's not promotions, it's sales. Because it ultimately comes to me for a sale. They don't call up and say, man, you sure sound good. They don't do that [laughing]. >> Larry Appelbaum: So for the businessman I'm talking to, more sales to you. >> Andrew White: Thank you very much. >> Larry Appelbaum: Andrew White, always a pleasure. >> Andrew White: My pleasure. Thank you so much.