[ Music ]
>> John Haskell:
Welcome everybody
to the Library of Congress.
I'm John Haskell the
Director of the Kluge Center
and we're a sponsor
of this event.
In case you don't know, many
of you don't know anything
about the Kluge Center,
just a sentence on it,
I set in this charter
the purpose
of the Kluge Center
is the bridge the gap
between scholarship on
the one hand, congress,
other policymakers and the
interested public on the other.
And the aim is to
contribute to the conversation
about the challenges facing
democracies in the 21st-century.
Tonight's event, as
suggested by its title,
is meant to enlighten
us about the political
and cultural significance
of Star Wars.
I must emphasize though, that
I'm in no position to comment
as to whether it will
achieve that end,
not only because the panel
hasn't really actually happened
yet, but also because
I've never seen any
of the Star Wars
movies [brief laughter].
With that, they're making a
documentary on me actually.
With that, let's turn
to the panelists.
First I want to introduce our
moderator, Colleen Shogan.
Colleen will begin a new
position at the library
as the Assistant
Deputy Librarian
for Collections and Services.
On Monday, she's searching
for an acronym, let her know
if you have one for her.
She's a political scientist.
She specializes in
American institutions
and she writes both
fiction and nonfiction.
Her readers can decide whether
the distinction is clear.
Colleen has been a Star
Wars fan since the age of 7.
A longtime ago though
in a galaxy far,
far away she taught
a course on Star Wars
at Phillips Andover Academy.
>> Colleen Shogan: Right.
>> John Haskell:
Recently she's blogged
on the politics of Han Solo.
Her favorite Star
Wars character,
however, is Darth Vader.
I have to take it on faith
that she shares traits
with that gentleman.
Bill Davies is right here.
He is an Associate Professor in
the Department of Justice Law
and Criminology at
American University.
He teaches a number of
classes on legal history
and jurist prudence where
he gets to draw analogies
between the fall of the
Roman and galactic republics,
Plato's guardians,
and Yoda's Jedi.
Am I pronouncing that right?
And how the colonial
rebels successfully,
the colonial rebels sorry
about that, successfully beat
down the British Empire.
He grew up in England
just a stone's throw away
from Pinewood Studios where
the Star Wars movies were
in large part filmed.
Henry Jenkins over here,
Henry is currently Kluge Chair
of modern culture
here at the library
and he's the Provost Professor
of Communication, Journalism,
Cinematic Art and
Education at the University
of Southern California.
He was the cofounder
and co-director
of the MIT Comparative
Media Studies Program.
His podcast, "How do
you like it so far?",
examines the intersection
between pop culture
and a changing society
and he recently did a series
focused on the Last Jedi.
As a college journalist,
he once turned
down a pre-released
interview with Carry Fisher,
Harrison Ford, and Mark Hamill
because he thought Star Wars was
a really dumb name of a movie.
[ Laughter ]
That's why we have the light
shining on him right now.
Seth Masket and another
person dressed
in black here is the
Professor of Political Science
and Director of the
Center on American Politics
at the University of Denver.
Seth during the summer of 18 was
a Kluge Chair in American Law
and Governance,
an internationally recognized
scholar on the party system.
He also written and lectured
extensively on the politics
of Star Wars including
even the politics
of the 1978 Holiday Special.
Seth was not born at that,
however, he's been a fan
of the series since he was 8.
Sadly, the most exciting
moment of his adult life was
when Mark Hamill retweeted him.
Swara Salih right here, is
a data analyst at the Center
for Government Excellence
at Johns Hopkins which works
to help city governments
improve their data
and performance management
practices.
He's also a cohost of
Beltway Banthas, the Star Wars
and Politics pod, I'm sure
I'm mispronouncing that,
podcast with his
conservative counterpart,
a gentleman named Stephen Kent.
They discuss and analyze all
intersections of the film series
and U.S. politics, having
esteemed guests like John Lovett
and Seth Masket,
yeah, Seth Masket.
Swara is also one of the
creators and organizers
of #SWRepMatters an
online celebration
and advocacy campaign for
diversity and inclusion
in a galaxy far, far away.
Take it away Colleen.
>> Colleen Shogan:
Alright, cool.
Great. I've been like
waiting for this all week,
probably like all month.
So, thanks for coming.
Just a few announcements;
we do have the film outside
today just, I know you all know,
but at 7:30 we will go
outside and we're going
to play Empire tonight
on the north lawn
and then tomorrow night at 7:30,
we're going to play
Return of the Jedi.
They're going to be
great nights both nights.
I ask you to come back
and enjoy the Library
of Congress Star
Wars Under the Stars,
and tomorrow also our
display of Star Wars items
from our collection
are going to be
in the Jefferson
Building from 1 PM to 6.
So if you come a little
bit early for the movie,
come and check out this
terrific display of materials
that we have from the Library
of Congress collection here
in the Jefferson Building
that will be on display
from 1 PM to 6 tomorrow.
So, let's get started.
So, what we're going
to do is start off
with a quick round robin just
for fun and then we'll get
into some political questions.
So, first easy question;
favorite Star Wars film, Swara?
>> Swara Salih: Ah, is this on?
The Last Jedi.
>> Seth Masket: Of all
the questions you said,
you said this was
the one I stressed
about the most [brief laughter].
So, I will just say I've been
saying Empire Strikes Back
for years and now I'm
leaning Rogue One.
>> Colleen Shogan: Oh, ooh.
A convert, okay.
>> Bill Davies: For me it
was Empire Strikes Back
that hooked me, otherwise, it's
got to be Revenge of the Sith.
>> Colleen Shogan: Oh, ooh.
I like the prequel, okay.
>> Henry Jenkins: So, I
started, I wanted to sort
of say the People versus
George Lucas, but because I'm
in that one, but, but
I ended up with Empire,
but I'm The Force Awakens
has really gaining on them
as I watched them all back
through again getting
ready for this.
>> Colleen Shogan: Okay,
another quick question;
favorite Star Wars character?
>> Swara Salih: Rey.
>> Seth Masket: Lando.
>> Bill Davies: This is
the one I stressed about.
Okay, spur of the
moment Obi-Wan Kenobi.
>> Henry Jenkins: Chewbacca.
Us furballs have to stick
together [brief laughter].
>> Colleen Shogan: Alright, and
a couple more quick up or down
and maybe just a
sentence for why;
up or down Solo a
Star Wars' story.
>> Swara Salih: Down.
>> Seth Masket: Extremely down.
>> Bill Davies: Up.
>> Henry Jenkins: Yeah
I'm definitely up.
I think the critics
didn't understand the role
of the backstory at all when
they responded to that film.
>> Colleen Shogan: Okay, great.
And even more controversial,
The Last Jedi.
>> Swara Salih:
Stratospherically, up.
>> Seth Masket: I definitely
liked it, some parts more
than others, but
definitely a positive.
>> Bill Davies: It
was a catastrophic
down at the beginning
then it became an up
and now its teetering again.
>> Colleen Shogan: Okay.
>> Henry Jenkins: No,
I'm definitely up.
It's flawed like been
incoherent like the rest
of the Star Wars films,
but I think it's much,
much better than
its critics concede.
>> Colleen Shogan: Okay.
So now pin it to the
theme of our panel today
which is politics and Star Wars.
The first question very general,
are these really
Star Wars films;
are these really
political films number one?
And number two, in recent years,
how much has Star Wars served
as a proxy for what's going
on in American politics
today recently?
>> Swara Salih: Yeah,
politics has been embedded
in Star Wars from the start.
In episode four, A New Hope you
have this small imperial counsel
talking about what's going
on with the galactic senate
about the emperor dissolving it.
They're talking about
the politics
and the optics of
their operations.
They talk about the
old republic;
it's all baked in there.
George Lucas actually
intended the original trilogy
to be a sort of allegory
for how the U.S., us,
was conducting itself abroad
specifically in Vietnam.
When you look at in Return
of the Jedi at the Ewoks
of all things, he actually
intended that to be a sort
of allegory for the Vietcong and
Vietnam rebels where we were,
you know, doing a lot
of interference and,
yeah he especially in the
prequel trilogy doubled
down on this making
clear obvious parallels
to what's going on
in Afghanistan, Iraq,
the Middle East generally.
What is interesting about that,
he started writing the story
for that before 9/11, before
the events of the war on terror
that unfolded later, so he was
actually writing concurrently
with that.
This is a sort of running
theme for George Lucas,
the thread of a larger power
overtaking smaller powers
or smaller countries
or entities and, yeah,
it's been embedded
from the beginning.
I think we just haven't
thought of it as much
in the original trilogy
until now with the prequels
and the sequel trilogy, because
it was so much more subtle
in the original trilogy.
Now it's a lot more obvious,
you want to take that?
>> Seth Masket: Yeah.
I mean, I, I agree.
The, you know, in the original
trilogy it's a political
setting, but it is, it's a
vague enough political message
that you can read almost
anything you want into it.
It's basically it's
a liberation story,
it's not really making
too many enemies in that.
It's when we get into the
prequels, which you know,
I'm happy to diss just name
it, but those are and that's
where Lucas had given
pretty much free reign
to write what he wants and
those are just very overtly
political films.
You actually have scenes
in several of the films
that take place in legislatures.
You see voting in the
galactic legislature.
How many films, how
many actions films,
sci-fi films do you see
voting in a legislative body?
It is very rare.
Several of the main
characters are senators.
The chancellor is
a main character.
You have a lot of people,
you know, Jedi leaders
who play also some
political role.
Those are very, those are
overtly political films.
I think Revenge of the Sith
was very clearly in a number
of ways designed as a pushback
against George W. Bush,
obviously the earlier films
were had other messages built
into them, but yeah,
I'd say he wants us
to be paying attention
to politics.
He thinks what's going
on there is important.
>> Bill Davies: Yeah, I
would definitely agree
with that categorization.
I think the original trilogies
are less about politics and more
about you know classic
science fiction themes
like the human condition and the
power of love and forgiveness
and sacrifice and everything
that science fiction is really
designed to do is enable us
to explore what it
means to be human.
The prequel trilogies are, as
has been said, overtly political
and I enjoy them for
that reason actually.
The one thing that is missing
from the prequel
politics is the judiciary.
We don't get any mention
of the courts and so.
>> Seth Masket: We got one
mention in episode one.
>> Bill Davies: Yeah.
And you get a clue of what was.
>> Seth Masket: Why
would that be relevant?
>> Bill Davies: Maybe
they'll cover this gap
in the next episode, but a yeah
that's what's missing for me
as a legal scholar at least.
>> Henry Jenkins: As a
media scholar, I come at it
from slightly different angle
because while I'm interested
in the politics in the film,
I'm also very interested
in the politics around the film.
So, my in my recent book "By Any
Media Necessary" we interviewed
about 200 young activists
and heard consistently
that the language of the
American politics was broken,
but because it was exclusive,
it was inside the beltway,
it was hard to understand
for first-time voters
and it was repulsive in so
far as the partisanship cloud
in any discussion of the issues.
What we found though was pop
culture provides that generation
with the language
they use to talk
about social change whether
it's a three finger salute
from Hunger Games or Princess
Leia at the Women's March.
We're seeing a variety
of signs from that.
This is what we call
the civic imagination,
so the civic imagination how
do we imagine a better world?
How do we think of
ourselves as a civic agent?
And that's baked into this
mythological structure
of Star Wars to such a degree
that it has been a
particularly evocative text.
Whether we're going to
talk about Ronald Reagan's,
whether he did or didn't mean
evil empire as an illusion
to Star Wars or whether the
Star Wars critique of Kennedy
that he later embraced
of his strategic missiles
or we could talk about the
use of the Hoth sequence
by protestors in Madison,
Wisconsin who use the
icy landscape to pick,
to go after Scott Walker
and calling let's go after,
let's fight the imperial
Walkers.
People even dressed up like
at that particular protest.
So, we're seeing Star Wars
iconography crop up all
over the place in
contemporary American politics
and it is the way
we think today.
It's not a new thing that we
use imagination for politics.
I'd like to point to you the,
what I call the cosplay George
Washington in the Smithsonian.
There's a statue of George
Washington wearing the toga.
Unless he went to toga
parties at William and Mary,
I don't think he actually
wore a toga, but it tells us
that there was a fantasy of
restoring classical democracy
that shaped the founding
fathers who wrote in pen names,
[inaudible] we call them
today of Roman orators
and Greek heroes to
fight for democracy.
So, students today who are using
Star Wars characters to think
about social change,
are part of a continuum
where the imagination
always plays an active role
in how we think about
political change.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah,
what is Star Wars
but our modern mythology?
>> Henry Jenkins: And if that's
case we're going to draw on it
for political discourse.
>> Swara Salih: Absolutely.
>> Colleen Shogan: Okay,
so let's talk a little
bit about the prequels.
I actually re-watched the
prequels and I kind of like them
if you're looking at them from
a political science perspective,
but one thing that bothers
me is what we touched
on a little bit here, is
the separation of powers.
So, may Seth you can
talk to us a little bit
about the legislature, the
galactic senate its strengths
and weaknesses and then
we can collectively talk
about what is the role,
I'm more and more confused
by the role of the Jedi.
Is that supposed to be
the executive power?
Who are they accountable
for and do we have to face
up to the fact that the Jedi
are partially responsible
for the fall of the Republic?
>> Swara Salih: Okay.
So, easy hitter.
When I teach actually
legislatures I usually start off
with the scene of
the legislature
in the galactic republic
from Phantom Menace and just,
you know, again like two minutes
of legislative behavior here
and I ask students to say,
well tell me what's missing,
assuming this is an a
natural legislature,
what should be here that isn't?
One of the things that's there
or that should be
there is parties.
This is apparently an
enormous legislature.
We never, we don't
know the exact size,
but there are thousands
maybe tens of thousands
of systems represented and they
don't seem very well-organized.
One of the things that would
very likely emerge here is some
sort of party divisions
and we don't see that.
We don't see any
sort of formal order
for the way things are done.
There is queen Amidala who
gets to address the legislature
as a nonmember of
that legislature.
If that happened this thing
wouldn't last a thousand
generations, it wouldn't last a
thousand years, I mean this is,
it's kind of a mess and
also there's no media as far
as we can tell and there's
some little floating droid.
I don't know what that thing is,
but you know, they're talking
about a you know have
some members saying,
hey the trade federation
is invading my planet
and other members saying,
no, no they're not.
And there's no finality
of that at all.
They say, well maybe we should
have a report or maybe there,
you know, turn on
CNN or something
and you might have some sort
of inkling of what's going on.
There's no evidence that
any of that occurs in there.
So, there's a number
of important problems
with the way this
legislatures are run.
Also, they just, you know, an
outside member when she gets
to speak calls for a vote of
no confidence in the leader
of the chain; this
is ridiculous.
And then, in the second prequel
when they vote there's no ayes
or no's, there's just grunts.
They just go like this and
that's presumably a vote either
for some piece of legislation.
So, yeah, problems.
Briefly.
>> Colleen Shogan: Maybe
a lack of formal rules?
>> Swara Salih: That's.
>> Colleen Shogan:
Immature institutions?
>> Swara Salih: Yeah, yeah.
>> Colleen Shogan: Even though
it's a thousand generations old
that's a problem, okay.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah.
When George Lucas was writing
these films he wasn't thinking
of the specific rules.
He was thinking what can I
put in for dramatic attention,
because Padme Amidala is one
of the main protagonists,
I'm going to have her be
pressured into calling
for a vote of no
confidence, but as you point
out Seth this makes
absolutely no sense.
The system would fall apart in a
day if like any monarch or ruler
from any planet could
just barge in
and like demand whatever
they wanted.
Yeah, George bless him, he
cares a lot about politics.
He doesn't know how to
write politics very well
and I actually want to
suggest an article on NPR
by Tamara Keith and Scott
Detrow, the politics
of Star Wars make no sense.
It is a very informative
and very entertaining read.
>> Bill Davies: Well, all
that said he does
understand the symbolism
of the legislature branch.
I mean, for me the great moment
in Revenge of the Sith is
when Yoda and Darth
Sidious are fighting
in the legislative chamber
and what is Darth Sidious
using as his weapon?
He's using the pods.
>> Seth Masket: The pods.
>> Bill Davies: Yeah, the pods
that they used to deliberate
and for me that was a
great symbolic moment
that this is just a weapon for
Darth Sidious to gain power.
>> Henry Jenkins: So, I thought
I'd fill in a couple of examples
of how that translates back
to real world senate politics.
So, Ted Cruz as some of you may
know is a hardcore Star Wars
fan, releases an ad for
his presidential campaign
where he turns the U.S.
Constitution into a light-saver.
Goes after Obama who's ripping
up the constitution where a pack
of wild donkeys riding an
elephant charging into battle,
fights his way through
a pack of rhinos
and finally rescues the
Capitol from the control of,
so it's politics
everybody is incoherent
as what we're describing
in Star Wars itself.
That it turned around though
when in one his campaign
appearances in New Hampshire,
a young activist
Andrew Slack showed up,
gave him a light-saver which
he loved and started waving it
around in front of the cameras
and the manger proceeded
to ask what kind of senator he
was, was he Organa or Palpatine?
In using the notion of the
dark force or dark money
as a metaphor to think about
the campaign finance reform
and the conversation
shutdown fairly quickly
as the Star Wars fan running
for President realized
that he was probably on the
wrong side of that metaphor.
>> Swara Salih: One
more Ted Cruz story.
He actually made, he
made I think during the,
yeah 2016 Election an ad where
he set himself in Hillary
and Barack Obama to the
trailer of The Force Awakens.
He was setting himself as Rey,
he was setting Barack Obama
as Darth Vader and Hillary
as Kylo Ren and no offense,
Senator Cruz you are no Rey.
>> Colleen Shogan:
And nobody wants
to touch my question
about the Jedi and.
>> Swara Salih: Oh
yeah, oh yeah.
Oh, definitely.
This is like.
>> Colleen Shogan: Alright.
>> Swara Salih: This is an
extremely important point,
because the Jedi as
they started out,
very spiritual religious
organization.
They say, oh we are here
to help promote peace,
but in our own spiritual
way letting the will
of the force guide us.
The force doesn't play
politics unfortunately.
It is outside any
sort of institution.
So, you know, my our theory
on our show for what happened
with the Jedi throughout the
generations of the republic is,
as the republic became
more and more consolidated
and needed some sort
of peacekeeping force
across these desperate systems,
the Jedi's first stepped
in increasingly they were
originally embroiled in for lack
of a better term,
earthly affairs
and they essentially became
a political institution
onto themselves, that
and they weren't even
in trying to the constitution.
So, what you have in Revenge
of the Sith, what makes Windu
and the other Jedi trying
to arrest Palpatine,
what grounds do they
have to do that?
It's certainly not
in the constitution
like Palpatine probably
notes, or like just thinking
to himself, what are they doing?
Like even if you
weren't in Sith,
you know this is something
else the Jedi are doing.
They are discriminating
against the chancellor
for his role as affiliation.
So, you know, there's
another question in there.
Again, George wasn't
really thinking that much
about the rules,
but he gave a lot
of really great fodder
for us to dig into.
>> Seth Masket: I wrote
a piece a few years ago
about the role of the Jedi.
So, as I, as I see them they
are a secretive powerful
religious order.
They recruit children at a very
young age and indoctrinate them.
They have this quasi
governing role
that are totally unaccountable.
They're basically the Taliban.
So, yeah anyway not
a fan, but yeah.
>> Colleen Shogan:
Okay, alright.
>> Bill Davies: For me the
Jedi are, looking at this
from a jurisprudence angle,
I think the Jedi is this weird
manifestation of concepts
of natural law, but there's
this underlying structure
to the universe that is morally
sound and we just need to work
out what these moral precepts
are and live our lives to them,
and the Jedi are this
manifestation in the real world
of natural law and Star Wars
is in a way it's a critique
of natural law in the sense that
as soon as these manifestations
of natural law have to interact
in the real world
then they fail.
The become too rigid,
they become too absolute,
and it just can't deal
with the dirty reality
of everyday politics.
>> Colleen Shogan: So,
so go ahead, go ahead.
>> Henry Jenkins: Yeah,
I again playing my role
of bringing this back to the
realm of real world politics.
One of the interesting
Jedi mobilizations was
by a group called the Rebel
Alliance which was concerned
with public education and they
discovered that May the 4th,
the official Star Wars holiday
was, it existed the same week
as Teacher Appreciation Week
and so they launched a campaign
called Teach us your [inaudible]
where people pay
tribute to their mentors.
Now, I was bemused by this
because mentorship is maybe
not the most successful strike,
side of the Jedi's
role in society.
I mean if I failed my
students as bad as most
of those teachers did
I would be probably
out of my job even with tenure.
There's all kinds
of inappropriate
relationships modeled
on the Star War films
in terms of the Jedi.
>> Colleen Shogan: We'll move
onto the original trilogies.
So, the theme, one of
the big political themes
of the original trilogy
is rebellion;
the theme of rebellion and one
thing that I've always struggled
with is how this
much, much smaller,
much less resource Rebel Force
is able to actually land punches
and made gains and ultimately
overthrow the empire,
this huge monolithic empire.
And the empire is clearly a
bureaucratic organization.
It's hierarchical.
So, what does that tell us
that there is this
small force that's able
to overthrow the empire,
what does that tell us
about the empire as a regime
and maybe talk a little bit
about the theme of rebellion
and how that's been used
by politicians and
political protests, you know,
in the political context?
>> Seth Masket: I'm
going to jump in on this.
>> Colleen Shogan: Good.
>> Seth Masket: So, I actually
want to recommend on this piece
that Vox Mischiefs of Faction
written by Amy Erica Smith
who wrote, actually some
commentary on the Solo movie.
This is the one, one
piece of praise I'll offer
for this film is that it shows
us the bureaucratic weakness
of the empire.
This is, it's a government
that's actually not been
around very long by the time
we see these events unfold
and they're having
trouble staffing up.
It's actually hard to
develop a bureaucracy.
>> Colleen Shogan: There's
not a lot of job security.
>> Seth Masket: There's not?
>> Colleen Shogan: There's big
punishment if you screw up.
>> Seth Masket: Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Colleen Shogan: Yeah.
>> Seth Masket: You rise too
high it will choke you and then,
so it's actually fairly
hard to coordinate things
across great distances.
One of the things
that is kind of,
well actually very inconsistent
across all these films,
is just how large this
universe is and how easy it is
to communicate and
to travel across it.
In the early films it seems to
actually take a very long time.
It's harder to administer
the outer rim planets
which is why slavery basically
existed there unchecked
for so long which is
why local war lords
and mob bosses basically have.
>> Colleen Shogan: Right.
>> Seth Masket: Free rein there.
So, in many ways this is
actually a very vulnerable
system and you know the rebels
were pretty good at, you know,
finding its weak places, plus
you had the fact that the,
you know, when I think
very foolish things
that the emperor did was
dissolve the imperial senate.
>> Colleen Shogan: Right.
>> Seth Masket: Which was
obviously not a, you know,
not a very strong
or important body,
but it held a vital
symbolic role.
It told people that if you have
problems there is a political
organization where you
can channel them and once
that was gone, it was really,
there was no political
solution to anything.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah, and they
were expecting the Death Star
along with the original
governors
to keep the local
systems in mind
like that was the exact
line in episode four, sorry.
So, yeah, Seth you hit
the nail on the head.
It's really about the
sheer magnitude of trying
to govern an entire
galaxy with hundreds
of thousands of systems
basically.
The thing about the
republic is, this is just
like I know we're trying
to be general here,
but this is something
I've read around that,
it was initially started
as a sort of trade system.
Like for planets to facilitate
like trade and economic stuff,
sorry, across the galaxy.
So, when you get to the empire
that's trying to express
like a lot of control over
the galaxy then you run
into problems and then
you don't have the senate
that like Seth said,
was this sort of conduit
between the citizen
Rey and the executive.
So, the rebel alliance
coming from various systems
like General Ackbar and his
compatriots from Mon Calamari,
Alderann other systems
I'm not going to go into,
but various across the
galaxy join together
and found the weak spots in
this very poorly managed system
and they were effectively able
to dismantle the structure
from the inside with the final
victory being at Endor or Battle
of Jakku with like you know
have a battle front to.
So, yeah it's like just be
like larger does not
always equal better.
There in a lot of ways, it
fell like the Roman Empire
with its structural like
weaknesses and other empires
when you like look
through world history
and it was only a
matter of time really.
>> Bill Davies: I would add
that I think Lucas had the
experiences of the 1930s
with dictatorships
in Europe in mind
when he was thinking not
just about the appearance
of this [inaudible]
prison imperial offices,
but the way that this bloated
bureaucracy was functioning
and the main job for
these bureaucrats was not
to actually do their
job very well,
it was to please the
superior and make sure
that superior doesn't
strangle them to death.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah, that
was Palpatine's ruling style.
>> Bill Davies: Exactly.
What I really like about the
new novels, the Aftermath series
and the Throne novels is
that they, it really gets
into the details of
that, you really see some
of these horrible,
horrible bureaucrats.
You always tend to
be depicted as a kind
of Hermann Goring very
overweight and selfish
and the horrible bureaucrat
who does whatever he can do
to make sure that he stays
in his position regardless
of any kind of merit of
any of his inferiors.
And the one thing that really
stands out for me about Thrawn
in these books is that he
runs his ship as a meritocracy
and that's why it's
so much more efficient
and so much more
effective his ship compared
to the other imperial
as the other ships
in the imperial fleet.
So, I really think that was a
part of Luke's ruling too is.
>> Colleen Shogan: Yeah,
what about the theme
of rebellion politically?
>> Henry Jenkins: Well, I
think we, there's no accident
that we're using the term "the
resistance" right now to talk
about progressive pushback
against Donald Trump, right?
And thanks to Princess Leia's
standing over my head right,
she has given us a
model for thinking
about an organization
that's intersectional,
that involves people
from a variety
of different backgrounds.
We could say something about
her racism toward Wookies
in particular which
is problematic.
>> She had just lost her
playmate give her a break.
>> Henry Jenkins: Talk out for
people of [multiple speakers].
>> That's locker
room talk, that was.
>> Henry Jenkins: People [brief
laughter] need to be sort
of need better treatment
within the resistance,
but I think nevertheless, and
it's just locker room talk
because it results in
them not getting a medal
and having a stand
like everyone else.
>> Colleen Shogan: That's true.
>> Henry Jenkins: Right?
That's justice for
Wookies hashtag.
But, you know, but the
interesting thing is you can
move in you can be a fly or
can be a farm boy one day
and a commander in the
resistance movement the next,
right, that there's a certain
meritocracy in her sense
of command that results in
both Han and Luke and later Ray
and Finn being immediately
incorporated into that.
There is a willingness to listen
to subordinance talk back.
I think that's an
interesting model
of what a political organization
might do, but also a willingness
to put men in their place
which I think is also a really
interesting model in our
"Me Too" times up moment
to see what command looks
like over a resistance movement.
>> Colleen Shogan:
This is a good segue
into our next discussion
which is about race and gender
and diversity in the
Star Wars universe.
So, the first question,
you know, we see elements
of democracy in the
Star Wars universe.
We see elements of
republicanism representiveness
in the Star Wars universe.
Do we see elements, is the Star
Wars universe ever a liberal
society, a rights-based society
or is that just nonexistent
in the Star Wars universe?
>> Swara Salih: So,
until the Disney era,
for the most part Star Wars
a franchise I have loved
with all my heart since I was 9,
has been mainly headlined
by white men.
It's a, The Phantom has
always been very diverse,
but at the same time,
certain voices were only,
would be highlighted and
a lot of people of color
and women even like a
lot of women would be
out of the conversation
about this.
I'm talking about both
the Star Wars universe
and The Phantom here; the
Disney era has made a lot
of great strides when you
look from The Force Awakens
to The Last Jedi, Solo,
Rogue One especially
with the super diverse cast.
There's still strides to go on
with that and it's interesting
because George Lucas did
intend the Rebel Alliance
to be a multiracial or
multispecies coalition
against the "human
supremacist empire"
like the allegory was meant
to be that the empire was
like a Nazi organization
only promoting human rights
and not alien's rights and that
it was a metaphor George Lucas
was going for.
It wasn't race-based, but
it was species-based and,
again, that was a metaphor.
I'm not sure like with canon
like how much that's really
being digged into now,
but I do know that was like
very much in his thinking.
And but it is still interesting,
because when you look
at the original trilogy films it
would only, it was mostly human.
It wasn't until beside Chewbacca
it wasn't until episode six
when we saw aliens
in the Rebel Alliance
and we didn't even
really get that much talk
about the human supremacy
of the empire.
It was something that you'd read
in books or George would talk
about maybe in some
interviews here and there.
So, all of this is, it's very
interesting to think about.
It can be uncomfortable
at times,
but it does necessitate
a discussion, again,
Star Wars when you look at the
films now they're making strides
at that can certainly
go further and I think
for on the women question
I think barely any
of the films pass
the Bechdel test.
So, and if they do it's
only for like 30 seconds.
There's a long way to go
in terms of it promoting a,
you know, I think this is
like tangential to being,
to being more liberal like
a more diverse society
when we're looking
at the discussion
of our politics today.
So, as a.
>> Colleen Shogan: There's a
question that major characters
that are people of color, right?
>> Swara Salih: Right.
>> Colleen Shogan: I mean,
there are people of color
who are characters even in
the recent Star Wars movies,
but what are they doing?
How, you know, what is
their storylines things
like that, right?
>> Swara Salih: Yeah, yeah it's
like I loved The Last Jedi.
It's my favorite Star Wars
film, but I appreciate and agree
with a lot of the criticisms
of how it treats its people
of color and its women.
You know, like I think
that it does try to dig
into some really
serious conversations
and I love Ryan Johnson.
I think he's a brilliant
director, a brilliant writer.
I think it would have helped a
lot if he happen to have a woman
of color a cowriter, a
co-director to look at some,
when you look at a lot of
the conversation in the media
about the film, this film
and some of the racial
and sex-based issues it has,
I think this would have
solved a lot of it.
If he, if it and like Lucas
film, I don't, it has a bit
of a white man problem where
it is mostly white men creators
creating and writing these films
and I think it can be opened
up more especially,
you know, for example,
just have more women,
have more people of color,
have people of the
LGBT community.
It's we're living in an era now
where people know so much more
about how their films are made
and, you know, it's like clear
on the screen when we're
watching them as well.
>> Seth Masket: So, I want to
recommend another blog post.
This is I believe by Sarah
Parkinson at the Monkey Cage.
She did a little write up of
Rogue One noting that, you know,
one of the real innovations
of that film is
that it showed the
centrality of women
to the resistance movement.
Not necessarily as the lead
fighters, but the organizers
of it, the generals, the
people who are connected
from different systems
that actually put
this thing together.
That includes people like Jyn
Erso, that includes Mon Mothma,
it incluse Leia and she notes
that this is actually a
familiar pattern in a lot
of resistance movements around
the world that we see today.
So, you know, I don't know that
I would necessarily call that;
I mean that was a very good
film for representation.
I don't know if I would
call it a feminist film
by a longshot, but it was.
>> Swara Salih: Like Jyn's story
and this is criticism I've heard
from a lot of my women
friends is that a lot
of her plot is based
on the actions of men
or like her father in
particular, I mean I think,
I think she had a
great plot overall.
I think it was very compelling
and I think she can be a
really great role model,
but I do understand
those criticisms as well.
We should have women
writers for these films.
>> Henry Jenkins:
No, absolutely.
I mean the interesting
thing about the politics
of these films is
there's one contingent
who thinks it hasn't far enough
or far enough, fast enough
and we can look at Phantom
as a site which really has
for a longtime fought
for representational
politics even something
like cosplay which.
>> Yeah.
>> Henry Jenkins:
Traditionally was about fidelity
to the original costume is
now being used as a tool
to help us imagine what a
more racially and diverse
or more gender of binary,
non-binary Star Wars might look
like and so it's a tool.
Fan fiction has been a tool for
imagining other possibilities.
Although the interesting
data there was coming
out of Force Awakens where you
have these characters of color,
the most popular pairing
in fan fiction has been Hux
and Rylo or Kylo Renaissance.
>> Colleen Shogan: Oh.
>> Henry Jenkins: Not any
of the characters of color,
so even fan fiction
has failed us.
>> Colleen Shogan: Yeah.
>> Henry Jenkins: In terms
of imagining what
diversity would look like.
On the other side,
we have the people
who are angry fan
boys, so-called toxic.
>> Colleen Shogan: Right.
>> Henry Jenkins:
Fan masculinities
which from the very beginning
was hostile to the new films
with some good reason, right,
it's a very mixed group
that we're talking about.
There's a lot of built-up
animosity, you know,
going back over a
variety of issues,
but a lot of them do
have to do with gender
and racial representational
issues.
The media overblew some
parts of the story.
It turns out the
#blackstormtropper was built
around a Lego movie that
had nothing to do with race
and a very small percentage
when you crunch the numbers
were racially, you know,
white supremacist posts, but
there is that discourse there
that people are looking at and
that we need to think about.
So, there's a struggle
around the politics
of the film that's very real.
The problem when the media
over-represents toxic phantom
and backlash, is it allows
the producer to say we need
to go slow because
our base is upset.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> Henry Jenkins:
And it doesn't,
and the media is not covering
all of the progressive moves
to representational
politics in Finn.
>> Swara Salih: It's
like when we're looking
at The Last Jedi reaction
for example, when you look
at different metrics you have
something called cinema score
which pulls audiences directly
when they're coming
out of the movie.
The Last Jedi got an A
grade on Rotten Tomatoes
which allows anyone
to go on and comment
and put whatever
rating they want.
It had something
like a 45% rotten;
that is a coordinated
campaign to try
to dash the score of a film.
You're absolutely right.
It's like it's so
overblown, it's so frustrating
because the broad majority
of the public and when I talk
to people outside of hardcore
fandom, like a lot most liked
or loved the film; however,
I have friends that didn't
like the film as
well and that's fine.
What they do is they
say, I don't like this.
I'm moving along with my fandom.
For example, I didn't like Solo.
I'm just going to
leave it at that.
I don't need to harp on
anyone else for loving it
and I do have friends
that love it.
>> Henry Jenkins: So, I
think what matters though is
that Finn is a Black.
>> Swara Salih: Yes.
>> Henry Jenkins: Right?
I mean, I think Frantz Fanon
could write a whole book just
about Finn's journey
from someone whose peoples
have been conquered.
He's enlisted into the service.
He struggles with issues of
conscience and finally rebels,
but is torn between the desire
to get out of the system
and a desire to become a
hero in the system's terms,
and I think there's a
really powerful journey just
around the edges in terms
of thinking about what,
why it matters Finn takes place.
Re-watching the films
getting ready for this,
though the moment that really
threw me out of my chair is
in the beginning of Sith,
there's a rolling credit
that tells us there would good
people on both sides [laughter].
Well, I kid you not.
Unless this is another one
of George Lucas's
alteration of the text.
>> Oh, George.
>> Henry Jenkins: I'm assuming
it was there all along.
>> Colleen Shogan: So, my
last question before we get;
I want to get to the audience
because I know you guys
have a lot of questions,
so we'll fast-forward here
to the sequel trilogy.
Right now we know they're
filming episode nine.
There's not that much
information out there,
but they're filming episode nine
and the one thing we do know
about episode nine
is that it is going
to be the last episode
that's going to deal
with the Skywalker saga.
That has been made very clear.
So, I have a two-part
question for the panel
and this is the last question
and then we'll go
to the audience.
How do you want the
Skywalker saga to end?
And how do you think the
Skywalker saga will end?
So, those are could be
two different questions;
how do you want it to end and
how do you think it is going
to end in episode nine?
>> Swara Salih: Ah, so.
>> Colleen Shogan:
It's a toughie.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah, I
have been so in the middle
of this debate raging online.
>> Colleen Shogan:
Well this is your,
you're at the Library
of Congress.
You're on record here.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah, so.
>> Colleen Shogan:
This is part of.
>> Swara Salih: Yes,
yes exactly.
>> Colleen Shogan: This
is part of national okay?
>> Swara Salih: Exactly.
Okay.
>> Colleen Shogan: No pressure.
>> Swara Salih: I view
the Skywalker's as Icarus,
flying too close
to the sun to talk
about another mythic reference.
I love Luke and Leia.
They are two of my favorite
characters of all time,
but I think even they
would agree by the end
of The Last Jedi that their time
has passed, that what they need
to focus on is what's good
for the galaxy at large.
The Skywalker's are the
family we've been following
for so long, but there are
things far more important
than one single family.
Kylo Ren who is a fascinating
conflicted character
in both The Force Awakens
and The Last Jedi has had
multiple times at going
to the other side or helping the
resistance or trying to atone
for the various sins
he has committed.
There is maybe a chance
of redemption for him
in episode nine, but I
think I'm very much at 50/50
on whether it's going to happen.
We will see.
I think my ideal for episode
nine for the Skywalker saga
to be wrapped up, is for Rey to
lead a new order of Jedi for her
to undergo a journey of
understanding what it is
that she really wants to do in
this galaxy and how she wants
to contribute and to
let go of trying to live
up to another's legacy.
And for Kylo Ren, I don't know
what I want for him exactly.
I think whatever happens
in the film I will like
and appreciate if
they do it well.
I could see him dying, I
could see him being redeemed
and then dying, I could see
him going into exile as long
as they do it well, I'm for it.
What I think will happen
if I'm trying to gauge
like chances here and there,
I think they will pull
a Vader with Kylo Ren.
I think that he will
be redeemed.
He'll do some action
to help the resistance,
but then he will die following
the legacy of his grandfather
and potentially being welcomed
into the force ghost afterlife
by Luke, Kyoto, Obi-Wan
and Han again [laughter].
>> Seth Masket: What music
is playing when that happens?
>> Swara Salih: Probably
The Force theme.
They would definitely
play The Force theme.
But honestly, as long
as Rey, Finn, Poe,
Rose and our resistance
heroes, as long as they get
to have their, you know,
shining moments in episode nine
and the story is really focused
on them and how they're going
to save the galaxy, I'm happy.
>> Bill Davies: Thanks.
So, one of the exciting
things I really enjoyed
about Solo was this discussion
or this nascent discussion
about droid rights, and I think
that really has a good potential
for a more neutral or a more
dispassionate discussion
about equality and
rights that we talked
about in the previous
discussion,
so I hope that continues
in the next movie.
What do I see happening
after having just
finished the Thrawn novels?
Rey and Kylo Ren teaming up to
fight an invasion led by Thrawn
from the unknown regions and
Kylo Ren sacrificing himself
in the process to save Rey.
There we go.
>> Henry Jenkins: Well, I I said
that I though The Last Jedi
has been somewhat misunderstood
and to me part of what The Last
Jedi does incredibly well is
break the cycle of the Heroes
Journey or Monomyth all
of Joseph Campbell
that's drove so much
of Luke's own conceptions
of Star Wars,
and I'm drawing here
a little bit
on a guy named Jeff Gomez who's
done a series of blog posts
about culturally we're
shifting from Heroes Journey
to a collective journey where
there are multiple protagonists,
multiple ways of
succeeding, multiple missions
and we form coalitions or
there's intersectionality
between characters
and characters can sometimes be
opposed and sometimes friends.
So, the complexity of that
is part of what takes place
in The Last Jedi and
we see that pushback
and the hotshot masculinity
of just blowing
up things is not sufficient
that's put in its place
over the course of
the film which is one
of the many reasons why white
fan boys are often upset
by Last Jedi is that it
literally is saying you're not,
not only is the era of The Jedi
over, but the era of a kind
of masculine narrative
that's hero driven,
this has to give way to a
coalition centered narrative.
So, I do think we're
going to see the coalition
of the new characters and
the passing of the torch.
We already get it when Leia
says, who are you looking
at follow him at the end of
Jedi that that's a moment
of passing the torch that she
did, that Carrie Fisher did get
in while she was alive
and we can sort of see
that as a monumental
moment and we've built
across the three films
the passing of the torch
by each of those characters.
And on top of the joyride
thing, I would also point
to Rose's moment of
talking about animal rights,
because we have this
blurring of categories running
through Star Wars between
characters that are subhuman,
and I think Wookies are
treated and Ewoks are treated
as subhuman often in the
films and those characters
that are treated as animals
and the relations between them
and to some degree the poor
Chewbacca relationship sort
of starts to play with
that and Rose's moment
of rescuing the horse and
saying, or the creature.
>> Swara Salih: The Fathier.
>> Henry Jenkins:
Yes and saying free.
>> Swara Salih: Nerd.
>> Henry Jenkins: Is similarly
makes those questions open.
So, we're now asking who
has rights in Star Wars
as we move toward a more
ensemble-based narrative
and less away from it
being a Skywalker saga.
>> Colleen Shogan: Seth?
>> Seth Masket: Ah, I'm
okay with us moving away
from the Skywalkers, but I
would just say that what the,
the most recent films have
done is they've been a way
to say goodbye to
the original heroes.
Han Solo, Luke Skywalker
got really nice endings
and Leia deserved that and I
don't see anyway she's going
to get that now, and that
is, that's unfortunate
because she's deserving
of a good send off.
I don't really know that
the right way to sort
of end that family's story.
I had a, had a history
professor in college,
Slottman [phonetic] was his
name and he was always sort
of working, I don't know
if he ever finished it before he
passed away, but he was working
on some novel about
that he wanted
to call The Last
Haspur [phonetic].
And he just wanted just with
the last Haspur just advocating
getting in a limousine
and driving away.
And it would be nice if the
last Skywalker could do that.
>> Colleen Shogan: Okay, great.
So, we're going to
go to the audience.
Do we have a microphone?
Roswell has a microphone
if you raise your hand,
we'll take some questions.
>> So I like the prequels.
I always have, but I
really fell in love
with the prequels even deeper
once I watched The Clone Wars.
I thought that it
kind of enriched a lot
of the political
legal aspects of it.
I mean, there's a court
scene in season five,
the Jedi they're immune
from prosecution while
they're a Jedi it's almost
like a ecclesiastical rights
you know in older times.
Well, what was your
view of the politics
of specifically I
guess the prequels
in light of The Clone Wars?
Did that change for you?
Did that enrich you?
Like what was your view of that?
>> Swara Salih: So, as someone
who watched The Clone
Wars only recently,
yeah it definitely enriched it.
It, I love political dramas.
Like for example, West Wing or
until the scumbag was removed,
House of Cards and yeah I find
it all really fascinating seeing
Padme, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma
and other senators
discuss the republics,
public health care
system; how does that work?
I have no idea.
But still, it's like really
fascinating to hear them talk
about the sort of
nuances of The Clone Wars.
You know, we've mentioned before
the line heroes on both sides,
there was actually an episode
of Clone Wars entitled Heroes
on Both Sides and it shows
that the separatists
are not just Count Dooku
and his scary looking
alien like in patriots.
It's or like the
commerce skilled.
Like the [inaudible]
basically really bad metaphors
for East Asia as
a dominating force
that were even racially
tinged unfortunately.
And like this episode showed
like yeah the separatists
as like just regular people.
planets that are
really dissatisfied
with the way the republic has
been run and why they're trying
to get out and what
rights they're seeking
and in this episode,
Padme goes with one
of our main characters Ahsoka
who is Anakin's apprentice
in The Clone Wars.
You might want if you're
interested, you might want
to check out this
series, and Ahsoka gets
to see hey these
aren't monsters.
These aren't our sworn enemies.
They're real people
with genuine grievances
and maybe we should hear them
out and maybe we can come
to a solution to this awful war.
There are a lot of like episodes
like that throughout The Clone
Wars that deepen what each
of these individual
planets are going through.
It's not just in the
legislature, it's not just
in the senate, you actually see
what's happening to the people
and I, I; my relationship with
the prequels, I loved them
as kid, not so much growing up.
I recognize them for
their many, many flaws.
But I really wish that
Clone Wars was the prequels.
I really wish that we were
seeing these various planets
that Clone War showed
us in the actual films.
I think it would
have helped it a lot.
>> Bill Davies: Can I
had something to that?
>> Colleen Shogan: Oh,
sure go ahead sorry.
>> Bill Davies: Actually
my favorite episode
of The Clone Wars series
is the trial of Ahsoka.
>> Swara Salih: That
was so good.
>> Bill Davies: Yeah,
absolutely.
I mean, you get in
one not a court room,
I think it's the
headquarters of the Navy
because it's a military
trial a court-martial.
You get in one room you
get Chancellor Palpatine,
you get Admiral talking at the
time and you get Pademe Amidala
and Ahsoka and I you
get Skywalker there
and for me that's a great scene
of just how different the
Jedi are from normal citizens
of the republic, but also just
how much power Palpatine is
exercising over the entire
political judicial process
by that point.
>> You'll have to forgive
it's not very political,
but I just up or down on Jar
Jar and up or down on Rose?
>> Swara Salih: On what?
>> Seth Masket: What?
>> Colleen Shogan: On?
>> Rose, Jar Jar and Rose?
>> Colleen Shogan: Oh.
Down on Jar Jar,
but way up on Rose.
>> Henry Jenkins: I
have an interesting,
Ahmed Best who played Jar Jar
Binks was a guest on our podcast
and we had a long
discussion about this
and he posed a really
interesting challenge which was
that if, now I'm going
to lose his name,
Andy Serkis had played Jar Jar
and he had played Gollum
how would we respond
to those two characters?
And he was talking about Gollum
slathering on rocks and talking
about Master and so forth.
It would be politically
incredibly awkward
and difficult to imagine that.
The problem is I can't imagine
Andy Serkis being given the
lines that Jar Jar was
given in that film.
Right? And watching it
again he sort of sold me
in the conversation,
but watching the film prequels
again, I just can't get there.
>> Colleen Shogan:
Yeah, yeah for sure.
>> Henry Jenkins: It is a
deeply problematic character.
>> Swara Salih: Yes.
>> Henry Jenkins: It's
that shows Lucas's roots
and menstrual humor of
the 40s and so forth.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah, the
way Jar Jar was portrayed
and was not the best to be sure.
So, I just wanted to like say
another note of that Ahmed Best.
It was actually revealed
recently that he went
through era of depression after
the Phantom Menace with all
of the Phantom discourse around
his character and, you know,
let's remember that these
are actors just doing a job
and it's the writers who
have created these things
that we may detest, so you
know, with all due respect
to Ahmed Best and of the; he
really did put incredible work
into the character even though
he don't really like him
that much, Jar Jar that is.
So, you know, with
all due respect to him
and everything he's
been through,
I'm going to give Jar
Jar a thumbs down,
but on the other
character of Rose Tico,
I give her again a
stratospheric thumbs up.
>> Colleen Shogan: Yes.
>> Swara Salih: I will
say though about Rose
and I love Rose as a character,
I wish they didn't have
that kiss in Last Jedi.
It just, it was completely
out of place in my opinion.
That's it.
>> Seth Masket: I yeah,
you probably said enough
about Jar Jar, just but
I'm a big fan of Rose.
I, in particular her I
thought her contribution
to The Last Jedi just
saying you know it's not
about the bad people
we kill it's
about the good people we
save, that kind of turned
in many ways the entire
franchise on its head
in a really helpful way.
So, you know, if she
does nothing else,
I think that would be, that's an
important character right there.
>> Henry Jenkins: And if we
want to talk about characters,
who actors who have
been harassed.
>> Colleen Shogan: Yes.
>> Henry Jenkins:
That's the latest.
>> Swara Salih: Yes.
>> Henry Jenkins:
Story on harassment
where angry white fan boy rage
has just torn her life apart.
But yeah, I think the
introduction of sisterhood
as a motif in the story is
another step toward decentering
the male narrative and
emphasizing other kinds
of relationships and we only
saw her sister very briefly
in the opening of The Last Jedi,
it's a really powerful sequence
of the scene them play with
her medal that goes back
to the sister I think
is particularly strong.
>> Bill Davies: Yeah, the sister
does play a more important role
in normalization.
But a for me, Rose was important
in a strange way for me
because growing up as a white
British male, I you know,
I never had any problems
finding heroes
that looked me on the screen.
But I'm now, I'm married
to a Korean American
with a mixed race daughter
and for the first time I
had a real visceral sense
of just how important it was for
someone like my young daughter
to see someone that looked like
her on the screen and realize
that she could also immolate
this hero role that's played
in the movie.
>> Colleen Shogan: Okay, we
have time for one more question.
Go ahead.
>> Very simple question;
favorite light-saver fight?
Favorite light-saver fight.
>> Colleen Shogan: Oh,
favorite light-saver fight.
Good question.
>> Seth Masket: Oh, can I?
Phantom Menace.
Yeah, not a good
film, but man is
that a good light-saver
scene and, in fact, I,
I'll argue that light-saver
scene actually makes the case
for the film better than
the film does [laughter].
It's actually, it's
well-thought through.
It's beautifully choreographed.
The whole story of the
light-saver fight is
that you know you have these
two Jedi who are supposed
to work together, but they're,
and you have Darth
Maul basically trying
to tar them apart, even
though he can't beat them
if they're working together,
so he's constantly trying
to draw one away from the other.
You see, you know, sometimes
they're trying to do sort
of innovative moves that kind
of fail and I think it's,
and you see the very
different Jedi versus set style
that absolutely beautiful.
>> Bill Davies: And Jewel of
the Duel of the Fates the score
to the, it's mind blowing.
Mind blowing.
>> Henry Jenkins: Yeah, and
when I said earlier that,
when I said earlier I didn't
want to interview the cast,
I also seen the trailer in
fairness the very first trailer
of Star Wars didn't have John
Williams' music attached to it.
>> Yeah.
>> Henry Jenkins: So, imagine
how different it would be
to experience Star Wars
without Williams' music.
>> Swara Salih: Yeah,
George Lucas called it the
secret sauce of Star Wars once.
Yeah, mine is actually
Return of the Jedi.
I think it's a very
emotionally charged beautifully
choreographed, beautifully
shot light-saver battle
between this father and
son who are battling
for each other's souls
effectively and you can tell
that it's not just that
they're light-savers
that are clashing even
if it is done very well,
it's their emotions,
it's their thoughts,
it's like they're projecting
telepathically to each other
and Mark Hamill's expressions
and even Vader's expressions
even though he's in a mask,
it's like this is the fact
that I love about Darth Vader,
it's like you can always feel,
you can always tell what
he's thinking or feeling just
by looking at him and he's
like it's just the
same mask, but anyway.
Anyway, it I really love it.
It's a been one of my favorites,
it is my favorite basically my
whole life and it means a lot
to me, like in everything
it portrays.
>> Bill Davies: For me
it's Revenge of the Sith.
It's the two brothers
fighting, I just,
thinking about that
opening dialogue and then
when they start fighting, just
I got goose pimples right now.
>> Colleen Shogan: Alright.
Well, join me in
thanking everybody here
on this panel today.
[ Applause ]
So, once again please join us
for Empire Strikes Back outside
in the North lawn at 7:30 and
then Return of the Jedi tomorrow
at 7:30 and our display
open from 1 to 6
in the Jefferson
Building tomorrow.
Thank you.