>> Ken Lopez: Good afternoon. Welcome to the Library of Congress. I am Ken Lopez, director of security and emergency preparedness here at the Library. On behalf of the Library of Congress, Dr. Carla Hayden and Veterans History Project director and my colleague Colonel Karen Lloyd, US Army retired, I'd like to thank you all for joining us both in person and via livestream for today's panel discussion on veterans response teams, improving outcomes for Justice-Involve Veterans with posttraumatic stress disorder. Most importantly, I would like to thank all the veterans in attendance today and listening for their service in the US military and the sacrifices that they have made for our country. Will those veterans present here today, please stand or wave so that we may express our sincere gratitude? [ Applause ] Thank you very much. I would also like to thank our moderator, award-winning journalist Jonathan Elias, from WJLA TV as well as our other guest speakers and panelists for accepting the invitation to share their experiences and expertise with us today. We are excited to hear from each of you. The Library of Congress Veterans History Project is congressionally mandated to collect, preserve and make accessible the war stories of US military veterans who served at any point from World War I through the most recent conflicts so that the future generations may hear directly from veterans and better understand the realities of war. Now in its 19th year, the project has achieved more than 110,000 collections of personal remembrances of wartime service from the brave men and women who served, including audio and video recorded oral histories, original photographs, letters, diaries, journals, unpublished memoirs, wartime correspondence and two-dimensional works of art. The Veterans History Project receives approximately 100 new collections each week and serves as a vital research for researchers, authors, filmmakers, educators, students and veterans loved ones. The National Institute of Corrections and IC is the only federal agency with a legislative mandate to provide specialized services to corrections from a national perspective. NIC provides direct service rather than financial assistance as the primary means of carrying out its mission. It responds directly to the needs identified by practitioners working in state and local adult corrections, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, the Department of Justice, other federal agencies and the United States Congress. NIC staff provides leaderships to influence correctional policies, practices and operations nationwide in areas of emerging interest and concern to correctional executives and practitioners, as well as public policymakers. Now in its third years, the collaboration between the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and the National Institute of Corrections is one that has benefited many. Together, these two organizations have illuminated issues at the national level that affect not just veterans living with PTSD but also their loved ones, service providers and communities at large. It is through open dialogues like the one that is about to take place that we better understand the plight of those who served and, subsequently, make the changes needed to ensure they have access to programs and resources that will make life better for them. As an Army veteran who served as a platoon leader in the Vietnam War and later as a military intelligence officer in Washington D.C., I am fully aware that many of our men and women return from serving our great nation with unhealed, invisible wounds, often making them virtual strangers to their loved ones in surrounding communities. Some recognize the symptoms, receive a diagnosis of PTSD and seek treatment right away. Relatively speaking, those are the fortunate ones. To many others, through no fault of their own, go undiagnosed and are untreated for many years, leaving them at a higher risk to experience homelessness, unemployment, substance abuse, divorce, violent behavior and suicide. According to the National Center for PTSD at the Department of Veterans Affairs, PTSD occurs in 11% to 20% of the veterans of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, 12% of veterans of the Gulf War and 30% of veterans of the Vietnam War. Today's discussion will cover the information of veterans' response teams which are comprised of law enforcement professionals who are trained to respond to situations involving veterans in crisis. You will hear from experts from cities across the country who have seen the benefits of having veterans' response teams in place resulting in saved lives, a decrease in hostile situations and an increase in the number of veterans who receive the treatment they so desperately need. After the panel discussions, we will open the floor for questions from the audience. Coming to the podium next is Mr. Stephen Amos. Since November 2015, Mr. Amos has served as the chief of the Jails Division of the National Institute of Corrections. With more than three decades of service in the fields of law enforcement and corrections as a practitioner, researcher and policymaker at the local, state, national and international level, Mr. Amos has stated that he has never found anything that is more professionally rewarding. His interest in coming to NIC was that it would be most rewarding capstone in his career, doing what he loves most, supporting the professionals working tirelessly to enhance the public safety of their communities and the lives of those for whom they are charged with stewarding. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasure to introduce to you Mr. Stephen Amos. [ Applause ] >> Stephen Amos: Thank you, Mr. Lopez, and thank you for your service. It's truly an honor to be here this afternoon. First, I'd like to thank the Library of Congress for continued collaborative efforts in support of PTSD Awareness Month. Secondly, I'd like to thank those of you that have served our country, both as military veterans, but continue to do so as public servants. There clearly is no higher calling than to be in public service, and I very much respect all the work that you do in the community. I'd also like to thank the leadership of the National Institute of Corrections. My colleagues have been incredibly supportive in making this a reality and ensuring that the support is there necessary to bring awareness to these critical issues and ensure that we continue to do our part to support our nation's veterans and enhance our public, our community safety. Additionally, I want to thank the members of the NIC sponsored Justice-Involved Veterans Network. Those who come from a continuum of criminal justice who have collaborated over the last few years to identify what are the needs of the Justice-Involved Veterans but also to identify how we can interface with them and ensure that we promote public safety and ensure their larger wellness. Also, I'd like to recognize the leadership of the US Department of Veterans Affairs, specifically, Sean Clark, national leader for the Veterans Affairs Outreach Program and Jessica Blue-Howells, national leader for the Healthcare for Re-entry Veterans Programs. The Veterans Administration has been incredibly supportive, always at our side, and working collaboratively to identify the opportunities, the challenges and how we can work together to improve work for better outcomes. Lastly, I'd like to give a special thanks to my colleague at the NIC, Greg Crawford. Greg Crawford is a powerhouse of energy. He is a person that has spearheaded this effort of the course of the last three years, and he has truly worked hard and diligently to be the voice of the Justice-Involved Veterans. So please join me in congratulating and thanking Greg Crawford for his contribution. [ Applause ] As stated earlier, we're here today to bring awareness to PTSD. Additionally, we are here to release a national publication that focuses on law enforcement approaches to working with veterans in crisis in our communities. I hope each of you had the opportunity to pick up one of these documents referred to as the veterans' response teams' document here. This is being released today and obviously of significant interest to the field. You'll hear today from law enforce community in our panel about our exciting innovative approaches to improving outcomes for veterans who may be struggling with PTSD. You'll hear personal stories about how these efforts have saved lives and promoted public safety. This document that I mentioned earlier focuses on the role that specialized trained law enforcement officers play in deescalating circumstances where military veterans pose a threat to themselves or to others and serves as a resource to the field. So for us, this is an important milestone in our compendium efforts to build a continuum of criminal justice engagement. And again, we're very pleased to be here today, not only recognizing the contributors to this body of work but also the engagement and the opportunity to further educate the field in terms of how we can work together in partnership and collaboration to support our nation's veterans but also how we can enhance our communities and their safety. With that, I'd like to introduce our key person here that is very significant to me. Jonathan Thompson is the executive director and CEO of the National Sheriff's Association. Him and I work closely and tirelessly over the last four years of my tenure to identify what are the challenges that the nation sheriffs face in working in the community and how can they best support those community efforts. Two primaries that he always is focused on is addressing the needs of the mentally ill and the substance use [inaudible] disorder. I think it speaks volumes to his leadership and his continued collaboration and partnership with us at the Department of Justice and others as exemplified by him being here today and presenting on behalf of the Nation's sheriffs. So with me, it is my honor to introduce my friend, my colleague, Jonathan Thompson. [ Applause ] >> Jonathan Thompson: Well good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. And for those of you in the viewing audience, thank you for giving us a little bit of your time. I, too, want to thank a number of people. I want to say, I want to say thank you to the Library for hosting this great event. As somebody who's lived in town for several decades, it's always a surprise when you can come into one of the great buildings in our county's capital and say to yourself, wow. And it's always an amazing experience. So thank you very much to the Library. Secondly, I'd like to thank the entire NIC, Shaina, I don't see you. There you are. Shaina Vanek has been an enormous supporter of Steve's and mine, and I want to also point out that as NIC has really worked diligently over the last four years to kind of transform how it does things with the nation's law enforcement, so thank you very, very much. I also want to pay a special tribute to the men and women in uniform across our country. Those are men and women not just in law enforcement uniform but also in military service uniforms. This week, as most of you know, marks an important week for us in law enforcement and the industry as well to honor those that passed, who lost their lives in protecting us here in the nation, here in CONUS. They did so for any multitude of reasons, but public service was the two words that Stephen mentioned. And it is not just an honorable profession. It is the most honorable profession. And we oftentimes I believe forget them and forget the traumas and the trials that they go through. They are not less than the stress factors that those in our military face overseas. In some cases, as we're going to talk about later today, they're magnified because those in military uniform, they have that calling. And what they'll find themselves being drawn to as they come back to the United States is into law enforcement. It may have something to do with the control, the command and control environment, but I don't think so. I personally believe that it's a service that they feel innate. It's in their genes. It's in their genetic makeup. Today is really a milestone in a number of ways as well. As I was preparing to spend the next 45 minutes speaking to you, I thought, you know, it'd probably be best to just make a few, just a few minutes. As Sheriff Lamb knows, I could go on for hours about this topic. But what I wanted to do is just pay some attention to the things that are important to you all and to the community at large. I'm going to read some words from one of the gentlemen on the podium, and it literally struck a chord in my personal life. Quote, it didn't click for me until then about how honorable and selfless service could actually translate into offending. When you serve loyally and something happens that shatters your world and you don't get the help you need, you can easily spiral into a criminal situation. Those are the words of Major Seamone, who's on the podium and the panel today. I have some personal history in this. Now, I've never worn the uniform, whether in military or law enforcement, but I am blessed to be the son of someone who served during World War II. A very quiet, strong man, my hero growing up, but he spent 31 days in Guadalcanal. Now, for those of you who don't remember your military history, which is few in this room, for those that are watching that may not, those were the 31 worst days in Guadalcanal's history. I never learned about it until my father was 78 years old. Never talked to me about it, never talked my brother or sister about it. In fact, he never even really mentioned his military service. I can remember as a small child him finishing up his reserve duties. He would put on his uniform, and he would go spend the weekend as a JAG. He would come home a different person every time. This is postwar time then. This is in the 60s. He would come home, and he'd recognize that he's seen young men and women come home that had phenomenal challenges. And as a lawyer and someone also committed to public service, I can see the strain on him. Now he is one of the majority of those coming home that had the ability to deal with his issues. How he did it, I'll never know. None of us will ever know how some of those people do it. But what I know is he was committed, as I think everybody in this room is and everybody should recommit themselves to recognizing, that the level of stress to those in uniform and those fighting a war who every day are in that combat zone outside the United States away from their families, away from their kids or away from their brothers or sisters, away from their safety net, the level of stress is incalculable. In this book, I saw a couple of things that were absolutely intriguing. It's being released today, and I want to just tell you my observations of it, and then I want to turn it back over to Steve. It's really about the confluence of causes here. It's the bringing together of our military issues and our law enforcement issues. Any given day of the 700,000 plus people in our nation's jails, conservatively half of them are there for no other reason than being mentally ill. Their illness caused them to do anything but end up in jail. It caused them to commit a crime. They don't belong in jail for the crime they committed. They belong with care. They belong in a hospital or a clinic. But we end up putting them in jail in this country. To me, that's tantamount to a crime in and of itself. There are alternatives, and we have to focus on those alternatives. Whether, as Stephen said, it's a coexisting condition with drug abuse or not, the most civilized nation in the world locks up, puts in jail, our mentally ill. Think about that for a minute. For no other reason than we don't have the courage of our conviction to go back and say how can we do it better. We owe you, we owe them, the obligation. It's a moral obligation to help them. Now there are those that are very dangerous, and they belong in jails. And we get that. But when 350,000 people each day spend the night in jail because they couldn't get a medication and stay on that medication. They were kicked off of Medicaid. They were removed from the VA benefits. Is that their fault? Are they really the ones to blame? No. I argue they're not. So the confluence we talk about today is where those in war and those in law enforcement come together. And I urge you all to think about, the one last point I'll leave you with, if we don't as a society stand up and recognize the danger we're doing to ourselves, then we have no one else to blame but ourselves for the harm that we will achieve. This is not a republican issue. This is not a democrat issue. This isn't Black or White or Asian or Hispanic. This is an American issue. These are the people that protect us, every single day of their lives. They ask nothing more from us, nothing more of you than help, the hardest thing any of us have to do is to raise our hand and say I need help. I want to thank the panel for your vision, your leadership, your willingness to come and talk about this, and I want to thank all of you and I want to thank the Library, but I also want to thank what I believe are two government agencies that are really trying to figure this out and put their arms around it. And there are probably others, but hey, I want to pinpoint the VA. Secretary Wilkie and I have had this conversation. I know this is vexing. He knows it's vexing. And I know our new attorney general is equally concerned. But the concern has to be brought to the forefront of our consciousness. I can't do it. The people watching can do it. The people in this room can do it. Our veterans deserve it. Our law enforcement officers deserve it. Our first responders deserve it. But those 350,000 people in our jails, because of their mental illness, they deserve it. Thank you. God bless you all, and I look forward to listening to this comment. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Stephen Amos: Thank you, Jonathan Thompson. Truly appreciate those insightful words. Clearly, there's a lot of things that we are evaluating as we move forward in this process. But the insights you share are most valuable, so thank you. It's my pleasure at this point to introduce two individuals that will be giving comments, keynote presentation. That'll be Police Officer Jonathan Guider from Apex Police Department North Carolina, and he's joined today by Nick Blalock, a US Air Force veteran. And they're here to share their experience. They're here to share the challenges, the hope and the promise of working collaboratively in the community to identify opportunities to diffuse issues and challenges but also to move the field forward and profile what can be done to assist the nation's veterans and the challenges that they face and to train and provide skillsets and experience for the law enforcement community also. So with me, please join me in introducing both parties. [ Applause ] >> Jonathan Guider: Hello everyone. I'm Jonathan Guider, and this is -- >> Nick Blalock: I'm Nick Blalock, US Air Force TACP veteran. >> Jonathan Guider: So our incident or our kind of friendship bond began in 2014. I was working at the Apex Police Department at the time assigned to the patrol division when Nick's father had come up to the police department to ask for some help with his son. His father, and I'm really glad that his father did this, because it was what actually led to kind of the idea starting to formulate in my head of how I wanted to approach this situation. His father said, you know, my son was in the Air Force. He's just gotten off active duty. He's just been back home for a short amount of time, and he's really having a hard time. So when I asked him what was happening tonight, he said, he got mad about something. He said I moved his computer and it fell on the floor and he completely flipped out. He went into my room and just, you know, pushed it and destroyed everything, and he didn't know how to deal with that. Because from his father's perspective he's, I'm the father. This is my son. I raised him. He's not able to process that my son's been in combat. He's watched people die. He's killed people. And that changes your, changes how your brain works when you go through those situations. So, he said, you know, we asked him the basic questions, you know, any firearms or access to anything in the house just because, you know, there's a lot of situations that in law enforcement we get trained to deal with where you see highly trained military individuals who have been in situations like this that wind up getting deadly encounters from law enforcement on either side of the fence. He said, well there's a shotgun, but he doesn't, I keep the ammo separate. He doesn't know where it is. And that's funny, because talking to Nick afterwards, you know, one of the first things he said was like of course, I knew where the ammo was. But so when we get there, you know, the dad, he gave us the key so we could just go in. So, you know, we were trying to do everything as safe as we possibly could for all parties involved. Gave us the key, so we unlock the door and started calling for Nick. He was up in the attic. He had gone, opened the attic and was in the crawlspace in the attic. So when we started calling him to talk down to talk to us, he came down from the attic. He was just in a pair of swimming trunks, that was it. He didn't have any shoes on. He was bare chested. When he came down, you know, he had insulation on him just from being in the crawlspace. And it was clear he was extremely tense. Like both his fists were clenched. Like you could just, you could see every muscle in his body was completely tense. And something about like the look on his face and the way of everything his dad was talking to me about reminded me of my own personal experiences when I came off active duty, because I was in the Marine Corps. I had multiple deployments. And it was just something looking at him, it just clicked in my head. So once we got him, once he came out of the attic and came down to talk to us, we just went into the living room, his dad's living room, and we sat down and like we just sat, he sat on the couch and I sat in this chair, and we just started exchanging stories. Like it started off like telling the funny stories that people in the military always share with each other to kind of break the ice to let him know, I'm not just another cop that's here to lock you up. Because he had had, you know, he had had some experiences with law enforcement before since he's been out. And a couple of them I didn't know until after the fact, but they had, some of the guys at the department we worked with, knew him from an incident with his ex-girlfriend at the time. And they were like, you know, he's a, whatever. They didn't know him. They just knew like their first impression they had gotten on a really bad night for Nick. So it could have easily gone that direction for us if I had just went in there and not used any of that shared experience and connection to be able to relate with him. So when we started talking, after we sat there for like maybe two hours. >> Nick Blalock: Easy two hours or more. >> Jonathan Guider: Just talking, sharing stories. At one point like you could see the kind of stress melt off of him. Because he went from being so tense and his fists clenched to we're sitting there laughing, you know, telling jokes, telling stories that only, you know, that only people in our shoes would get and understand. But as much as I would have liked to stayed there the whole shift talking to him and exchanging war stories, you know, I had to, you know, I still had a couple more than a few hours left on my shift. And, you know, my boss man wouldn't let me stay there the whole time. So we had to come to some sort of resolution. And I got him, I got it approved by my sergeant at the time to, I said, he doesn't need any sort of jail. Because our department policy at the time was anything domestic, if there is any sort of physical assault or anything then an arrest has to be made. And he had shoved his dad like slightly. So by our policy, he had to go. And I told Sergeant Herring at the time, I said this is the worst thing that could happen to him. He's put himself out there, and we've made that connection. The worst thing I could do to this man right now is put him in handcuffs and take him to jail and leave him sitting in the county jail. So I got Sergeant Herring to approve, I said if I get him to agree to go talk to somebody tonight, will that suffice? And he said yes. And if anything comes out about it, I told you to do it, and I'll take the heat for it. So we went and we took him to the local hospital where they do, you know, they'll do some of that basic mental screening, and I gave him my phone number and I got his phone number. I said, man I know, I know everybody always says it, but I legitimately mean it. Call me if you need something anytime. And he was like okay. And I said seriously, I mean it. And then left him there that night. So do you want to speak for a bit? >> Nick Blalock: How's everybody doing? Again, I'm Nick Blalock, Air Force TACP veteran and subject of this super awesome scenario. So it was, like he said, a very tense situation. I, with my past in both the military and run-ins with law enforcement in the past, was nervous. I didn't know where we were going to do, what he was trying to do. But as I've said since we started the CIT training, the sincerity of the officers that responded that night, primarily Officer Guider, is what put this whole wheel in motion. And I say that because, as he said, you say all the time, hey, if you need anything, give me a call. I do it. Everybody's guilty of it. Somewhere in there is a little bit of truth maybe. For him, it was all truth. When I got out of the hospital that evening, my father came and picked me up. We went back home. Next day came, which every other day does, got a knock at the door. Who's at the door? Come to the door, it's Guider. He said hey man, got you something. What'd you get me? So backtrack a little bit. It was my dog that was missing that started all of this. Somebody came and taken my dog from me. And being a veteran losing my friends, I had my dog. That's all I had. And once that dog was taken from me, there's nothing I have left except to prove a point. And that's what I thought I was trying to do. When Guider came in with the sincerity of what he was saying to me and the calmness of my dad what showed me that they have already had prior dialogue that set the stage already, showed me that he was serious. So that day when he comes back he says, I got you something. Got you a new dog. Who does that? You know. I just met this guy. He, as a brother that I've never met, saw my pain. There was a chance for him to act as a law enforcement officer and do what he's been charged by the state to do. But he saw, as he stated earlier, that was not the best decision for our scenario. After he came back on that day, I got my new dog, Griff. Anybody who knows me knows my dog. He asked me, hey, are you interested in helping others, extending this, going a little bit further than where we are? And of course, absolutely, look at what you've done for me. And I mean it goes without saying, the officers keeping their promise that day and being sincere in what they were saying and actually caring about a brother who yeah, probably deserves to go to jail right now, but it's just going to complicate more issues down the line, is what allowed me to go all in and accepting the help. You know, there's other people in my life, my dad, Matthew Meyers, I mean there's numerous people who helped me, but coming from the staple in the community such as the police department, where they're like hey, we see another a problem, and we see a way out. We see a light at the end of the tunnel that is not a train. So come with me. Maybe we can help somebody else. And I feel, I haven't seen it myself, I've heard but in my community alone, there's been dozens of incidents after mine to where the groundwork that we laid out helped ease that situation. Made that situation where it wasn't detrimental. The person involved didn't have to leave a legacy of disgust. They were able to stand up after a little bit of talk with their brother, take accountability for what they've done, which is the main thing. This is not a get out of jail free scenario. This is you step up and take accountability for what you've done. It allows you to sit back in those warrior ethos that we develop in the military. Now you have the ability to take accountability again, and it makes you feel more whole. Yeah, you're still wrong. That's not going to change whether he takes you to jail or not. The situation already happened. But being able to step up and take accountability for it and then go forward and help others in my community is what I feel Chief Myhand and Officer Guider have given us. It's a great thing. As I said, it's not a get out of jail free card. It is an accountability check, reality check is what some of us call, but I like to call it an accountability check. It gives you a chance to take accountability for your own. And since that, I feel like personally I've come back better as a man, better as a son, an upstanding member of my community. I have my faults. I fight my demons every day, just like everybody else. But because of this and this alone, I have become a better person, and I can't thank you enough. >> Jonathan Guider: It's all you, brother. [ Applause ] >> Nick Blalock: Thank you guys very much. [ Applause ] >> Jonathan Elias: Good afternoon. I don't know how I follow that. I'm Jonathan Elias from ABC 7 News here in Washington D.C. I'm also an instructor at the US Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. I go every year. This will be my tenth year there. I come from a family, father was in the military, stepmother was a homicide cop for LAPD for a number of years. So I have a unique perspective and background coming at my job and certainly coming to this panel. And in years past I've worked with Greg on the PTSD issue from courts to incarceration and now from law enforcement. Love that story with Griff. What kind of dog is it? >> Nick Blalock: Pitbull. >> Jonathan Elias: Pitbull. My sister-in-law has a Pitbull. It's the best thing ever. It was a rescue, right? >> Nick Blalock: Yes. >> Jonathan Elias: I just think that's, he rescued the dog and at the same time he rescued you. That's good stuff. You listen to that story, and it literally strikes you as common sense, right? How many officers out there, I mean we in the news media focus on the .02% of the knucklehead law enforcement officers in the country when there's still 99.2% that are really good cops out there every day risking their lives to preserve and protect us. The thing about combat and war that I over the years have come to find out, and my started 15 years ago when I came face-to-face with what PTSD actually looks like, and it was a young corpsman who I had done something nice for. And because I had done something nice for this guy, he literally thanked me by giving me a hug, and in that hug, he started to tremble, shake and cry uncontrollably. And then I come to find out this young, good looking 24-year-old kid had been on multiple tours and had seen probably the worst things you could ever imagine. I learned then there's a language of war. And unless you've been on the front lines and you've been in combat, then you don't speak that language. You don't even pretend to understand that language. It's a completely different language. And you can only learn it by being in that situation. And I wouldn't wish that on anybody, but I've met now enough people to know that when you come through and you understand that language, it affects everybody differently. Some people are profoundly affected, and they have a hard time, like their world gets turned upside down and it's hard to get their equilibrium ever again. And there's other that just walk away from it, and they seem to be functioning fine and maybe 20, 30 years down the road they'll take an accounting of what really happened in their life, and it slows things down for them. Either way, you come away affected by it. And I think with PTSD, the hardest part about this is to understand the scars when most of the people who suffer from it will never say anything. They won't admit it to themselves, let alone admit it to others. You can't fix a problem unless you can identify a problem. And that's why this panel here today is going to help us not only identify the problem but perhaps fix it along the way. And the interesting thing about this particular topic is if you walked into a diner and let's say you had a young marine in uniform, you had an officer in uniform, police officer, those two guys would get into a fight about who's going to pay each other's bill. There's this respect that goes between the brotherhood of those in uniform. I don't care if you're representing your nation or your neighborhood, there is a respect between the two. So it's very difficult to understand when a call comes at 1:00 in the morning, just you domestic call, and here you have these police officers confronting somebody who may have been retired special forces who's not only very good with a gun but better than anybody in that entire city in any law enforcement capacity. And now they're staring straight into this guy's eyes trying to talk them off of a ledge. And it can be very volatile, and it can be very deadly, and we've seen that in years past. So if there's a way that there's a language that can be spoken between these two to maybe circumvent that particular violent confrontation, then that really is the goal. And you saw it here with the two speakers prior to me is that it literally, they looked at each other. They understood the rage. And instead of the police officer retreating to a self-preservation role and perhaps maybe leaning on his weapon for something he might need against this person, he understood that his mind was his most powerful weapon in that particular confrontation. What I want to do is let's go down the panel one at a time starting from my left over, introduce yourselves. Let's do the 60-second version. Because last time I did this, I kid you not, there was somebody who went into a 10-minute introduction, and I said listen, if it's Albert Einstein, okay, I understand ten minutes. But let's, all right, so please if you would, go ahead. >> Blair Myhand: My name is Blair Myhand. I'm the police chief for Clayton, North Carolina, which is a suburb of Raleigh. I am a career, I'm a retired Army First Sergeant, so go Army. I have had the fortune of being Jonathan's captain when we worked at another agency, and I thank God that I was a veteran when he came and told me this story between him and Nick and the success of it. And so, you know, what I did pretty quickly was, you know, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but I was smart enough to figure out that this was bigger than just us in Apex and did a lot of research and was instrumental in creating what is the veterans crisis intervention training that we'll talk about here later on today. So, less than 60. >> Jonathan Elias: Nice job. John. >> Jonathan Guider: Jonathan Guider: Got out of the Marine Corps January 2010 as a corporal. I was a canine [phonetic] crewman [inaudible]. I said before when I was up there, two deployments. Working for, as he said, he was lucky to be in that roll as captain when we were at Apex, but I, it's one of those things that I think there are certain crossroads in people's lives where things just line up the right way. And the fact that I had that call with Nick and then we had the success we had from that while he was my captain, so it wasn't shortly after that that they shook captains around and another captain was over the patrol division. If it'd had been any other captain other than him at Apex, if I'd have come forward, when I talked to him about it, hey, here's what's happened. Here's my idea. They'd been like oh cool and had gone on about their day. But him having the same experiences, again, that shared experience, connecting me and Nick, connected me and Nick's story to him, and then he did all the actual, he did all the hard work on it. He made all the networking, all the basically designed the entire training. So it was, I think, all of us were the lucky ones that he was in that position. >> Jonathan Elias: Don't you love those humble types? Yeah, it's all him, yeah. You started the ball rolling. Nice job with that. >> Evan Seamone: To add to that, I'd like to say how honored I am to be here with these national innovators. My name is Evan Seamone. In my civilian capacity, I work with a nonprofit called Swords to Plowshares, helping veterans with their second battle for benefits, which is a huge piece of this. I asked my unit in the reserves to be in uniform in recognition of PTSD Remembrance Month. Of course, the positions I share with you are from my own personal experiences. >> Mark Lamb: Hello everybody, I'm Sheriff Mark Lamb, Pinal County Sheriff. That's in Arizona between Phoenix and Tucson. I am one of 15 sheriffs in the state of Arizona. And it's an honor to be here. It's an honor to be here with these men. It's an honor to represent Pinal County, Arizona and more than 3,000 sheriffs across this country. You know, as sheriffs, one thing we deal with is we deal with the road aspect, and we deal with the jail aspect in most cases. Mental health is a problem all across this country. And it is something that we consistently deal with as sheriffs, and for the most part, that has been cast on us as sheriffs. And we house a lot of people with mental health issues, as Jonathan Thompson had mentioned. Particular interest to that is I am a father of five. I have a son who serves in the military, and I am a patriot, and I love America and I love freedom. And I love the men and women who have fought for freedom. And the least I can do as a sheriff, even though I'm not a veteran, is do what I can to restore them to their original pride and restore them as whole as I can to send them back out to the community. Which is why we implemented a pod in our jail, which I took from another sheriff in Middlesex County, Massachusetts, Peter Koutoujian, our HUMV pod housing unit for military veterans. So I'm a strong proponent of this, and it's an honor to be here today with you. >> Thor Eells: Good afternoon. My name is Thor Eells, and I am the executive director for the National Tactical Officer's Association, and I, too, would like to thank our men and women who have served this great country. I'm the son of an Air Force fighter pilot, the father of five also, what an anomaly there. >> Johnathan Elias: You guys both have five kids? >> Thor Eells. Same wife. >> After two. [ Laughter ] >> Thor Eells: And the father of two sons that are also Air Force pilots. And so the whole service and sacrifice of our veterans is near and dear to me and has been. Prior to joining the National Tactical Officer's Association, I was a police officer, retired commander, from the Colorado Springs Police Department in Colorado, which is the home to many large military installations in which we interface with military on a very regular basis. Most often under good circumstances but occasionally under less than optimal circumstances. But I, too, have practical experiences to share in dealing with mentally ill in crisis, particularly our veterans and was very frustrated by the lack of options but more so the lack of training that I felt that we and our officers had in how to recognize when people needed help versus an arrest or a transport to the emergency department. Law enforcement right now really has three ways to deal with a problem is they leave the problem, they arrest the problem or they transport the problem to a hospital, none of which are long-term solutions. And we repeat this cycle, and it just adds to the frustration that we all feel. And as a result of that, we've created an initiative which we call MIRACLE, which is the Mental Illness Response Alternative Center for Law Enforcement with our primary goal of educating to protect those that need our help, veterans in need. And we're taking best practices in beginning to educate officers, fire EMS, emergency departments, mental health workers, in how to create collaborative teams to provide meaningful intervention and treatment that is long term and sustainable. And we hope to answer any questions that you have about that. But thanks so much for having us, and it is also an honor to be here with these gentlemen. >> Nicolas Hurst: My name's Nicolas Hurst. I serve as a patrol officer in Newcastle County, Delaware. I served from 2004 to 2008 in the Marine Corps as a machine gunner. I served two deployments to Fallujah, and I created a team, thanks to Captain Myhand's training, in Delaware, we have 75 officers now that are certified to be a part of the veterans' response team in Delaware. And that was started because of a veteran who I served with in my unit was in crisis. >> Jonathan Elias: Was what? I'm sorry. >> Nicolas Hurst: Was in crisis. >> Johnathan Elias: All right, let's start with questions. So I'm going to pose some questions, and feel free to jump in, elaborate as much as you want. And I'm going to play devil's advocate, because from my background and knowing law enforcement, a lot of the friends I had grew up and became officers in different departments around the country. It's got to be one of the most thankless, hardest jobs out there. They're second guessed every step of the way. The court of public opinion, they always come up with the short end of the stick. And yet, they have a matter of nanoseconds to decide what they're going to do, what action to take, what force to use that decides whether they go home to their kids or not. And they'll be the first to tell you, look, we get a lot of training, but we also have a lot of work to do, you know, to get out on the streets every day and patrol these streets. So now you're asking us to juggle even more balls. How is it that you can adequately train a foot soldier, an officer out on the street, to deal with a crisis situation where you might come across somebody who has combat experience, is undergoing or in the middle of crisis, how do you get training to that officer to make a difference and perhaps circumvent what otherwise might be a violent exchange? >> Blair Myhand: Well, I guess I'll take this since everybody's accredited me with creating this training. And so, you know, what I found after Guider and I talked was, you know, I did some basic internet searching, and I fond that across the country, in every city, there were encounters with law enforcement and veterans that were in a crisis. And almost every one of those that I was finding, just news reports from different outlets, someone was either injured or killed as a result in a lot of those. Either the police officer or the veteran, sometimes both. And as being a veteran and, you know, I served in Afghanistan and Iraq, I've been a cop for 25 years, I thought, man, how tragic is it that here's an officer who is sworn to protect his community goes out there and gets killed for doing his job. Here's a veteran who is in an all-volunteer army who has service-related injuries or combat-related injuries, comes back and gets killed by a police officer. In some of those cases, the police officers were veterans, and they killed another veteran. And it's just a matter of, it has to happen. And we tried to keep this training as condensed as possible and make it practical application so they can practice these skills so when they go out there and they get in those situations, they know how to act better. >> Jonathan Elias: Give us an idea of a couple of the skillsets they need in order to do that. >> Blair Myhand: I would say that we work a lot on reintroducing them to what veteran is, because a lot of us get out of the military and I'm like man, I'm out of here. I'm not, you know, involved in that anymore. And you always get kind of pulled back into it. So we reintroduce them to the things that complicate a veteran in crisis. The substance abuse, the self-medication, all these things -- >> Jonathan Elias: Isolation. >> Blair Myhand: Right, the isolation, survivor's guilt, all these things that we've kind of experienced. But we really focus heavily on what Jonathan's success was, was that you have a shared experience. You can talk the same language, just as you mentioned. And we're able to establish a rapport and get beyond that crisis moment. Because once you get one second past the crisis, your changes for success skyrocket. And then you can work long term to connect them to the resources that are going to help them get better and not reoffend and not find themselves in those crisis moments again. >> Mark Lamb: You know, a lot of it is about training, but a lot of it is about leadership. You know, you have a leader here in his agency who led by example, who showed interest in the veterans. You need leaders across this country in law enforcement that will lead by example and those that are following and will follow. And we need, you know, I would love to see many more sheriffs adopt a veteran's pods and programs and crisis response teams for veterans. I think that starts with the leadership, and then you've got good folks like Guider and, what was your last -- >> Nicolas Hurst: Hurst. >> Mark Lamb: Hurst, that go out and they carry it out. And they do it on a daily basis. So for me, you do the training piece, but there's also that other piece that you have to be, you have to buy in as a leader. >> Jonathan Elias: So this would be something that your deputies, have they had this kind of training already? Or are they going to get this kind of training? >> Mark Lamb: You know, we do some crisis. We need to expand it more for veterans. We actually have a crisis person that goes around with one of our civil deputies, and any time a deputy runs into somebody with mental health, they will go out and respond to it. But we need to expand that better into the veterans' services as well. But we have, where we really kicked it off was in our jail, and it's such real, it's a real piece of honor for us to be able to house our veterans separately. And I think all of us, even those guys that work on the road and in the jail, have really adopted that. And that feeling of respond and honor to the veterans goes throughout your agency. >> Jonathan Elias: Officer Hurst, it strikes me is that when law enforcement comes into contact with a veteran in crisis, that's about the worst opportunity those two are going to meet. I mean that's the most volatile and dangerous. >> Nicolas Hurst: Especially when you know them. But the problem is is you have that bond through service. So you use that bond to communicate, and you both ultimately have a common goal, which is go home at the end of the night. It's just how do you get to that goal. And it doesn't work if it's a military veteran and just a civilian cop. >> Jonathan Elias: It does not work. >> Nicolas Hurst: It does not work. Is there any way to make it work? Because I would think at some point -- >> Nicolas Elias: You can have an understanding. And as long as that civilian police officer understands how to interact with them, it makes it less volatile. But it usually works better when it's military -- >> Jonathan Elias: But it strikes me as the military is a brotherhood, just like law enforcement's a brotherhood. I mean they are two brotherhoods that serve the same cause, it would appear to me, that they're serving somebody else as opposed to themselves. >> Nicolas Elias: But there tends to be a -- >> Jonathan Elias: A distinction. >> Nicolas Elias: The chief can help with that. >> Thor Eells: I can give you an example. In Colorado Springs, we found as a result of an interaction with a veteran in crisis that the color of our uniform was aggravating the veteran, because our uniform colors happen to be the exact same as the Afghan police. >> Jonathan Elias: So kind of a khaki color? >> Thor Eells: We had a light blue color. And so the Afghani police, actual police wear a light blue color. There had been, this veteran had been in a critical incident in which there had been an attack on federal troops. So, you begin to learn from those types of incidents that our greatest advantage is preparation and education ahead of time. And the sheriff is absolutely right. It starts with leadership. But law enforcement in the United States in the basic academies, our officers don't receive any training. So unless there is good leadership that makes it a priority to have continuing education as part of that, where there is that familiarization with non-veteran-based officers who begin to appreciate what veterans might be thinking, exhibiting and recognizing and then how to respond, it becomes problematic. But training frequently is the first bit of low-hanging fruit that's cut from a limited budget. The sheriff has to make a difficult decision. So what we're trying to do with like MIRACLE, is through a public private partnership is create an endowment in which we can scholarship agencies and officers to one, not only attend the training but secondarily, if you ask the sheriff or the chief, minimum staffing levels are difficult to meet every single day. So not only is it hard to send the officer to the training because there's an expense associated with that, but then an officer has to be hired back to work that shift at time and a half, so it frequently is even more expensive. But if by working as from a grassroots effort community, we can supplement that. We remove that financial obstacle to access what is really absolutely critical training for an epidemic problem in our country today. You know, the sheriff mentioned the HUMV pod, which is phenomenal. But I've known the sheriff a long time as a friend. He's going to be the first person to tell me and agree with me that we would rather the person never get to the pod. >> Mark Lamb: Of course. >> Thor Eells: So if we can take a very holistic approach to this through using mental health workers in the field, keep them out of emergency departments, keep them out of jail to begin with, because we provide better training to the first responders, then we win. >> Evan Seamone: On the holistic piece, I think it's also important that we can put officers in a better environment where they're able to detect that it's a veteran, and the onus shouldn't only be on the officer. For example, there's, of course, we have license plates where you can indicate veteran status. You can put it on a driver's license. And I understand that for a while in Georgia there was actually a law that allowed you to indicate a PTSD diagnosis on a driver's license. And that came with a lot of argument about whether or not that's a great idea. But other systems can also interact to better prepare officers to use these skills in this holistic approach. I learned that they had implemented a veteran's traffic court in New York with this idea that sometimes the issues escalate and you can see in driving patterns and minor driving and traffic infractions, this could be the beginning of someone's involvement into something that escalates into more of a criminal situation. So the idea is identify that veteran in need through areas where there could be crisis. And I even think we should be looking a little bit about family courts and other places where challenges are becoming too much, and that veteran needs help and then coordinating that response. >> Jonathan Elias: If I'm a police officer and I'm responding to a call of somebody in distress, a crisis that's playing out. And then I get that handy piece of information the person's a veteran. That ratchets it up a bunch of notches in the wrong direction because as an officer I'm thinking I need self-preservation. I could be up against somebody who in combat, in fighting, that's what they're good at. And I may not necessarily be that good at it. Let's face it, there's a lot of officers out there that, you know, they shoot once a year at a static target to qualify. And perhaps physically fit, you know, they don't go into Jujitsu classes, I mean, let's say. So I'm imagining in their mind when they walk into a situation like that, their adrenaline is probably at peak. You don't make the best decisions when you're at peak adrenaline. I mean, do you? And Officer, you'd be the best person to walk us through this. If you had not seen or recognized the clenched fists, the jaw tightening and the muscles all tense, and realized that this was somebody that was dealing with an issue that was completely unrelated to his computer falling on the floor. You know, what would you have done then? Or what would you instruct other officers to do in that situation? >> Jonathan Guider: Well it's, because there were so many pieces of that puzzle that got put together before I was even on the scene that trying to apply the same, like the same tools I used with Nick to other calls. If you took one of those puzzle pieces out from my interaction with Nick, it more than likely have gone a different direction where -- >> Jonathan Elias: You see he's in the attic. You're thinking he's got a gun up in the attic with. >> Jonathan Guider: Potentially. >> Jonathan Elias: Right. >> Jonathan Guider: Yes. Especially knowing that there was a shotgun in the house. There's ammunition that the dad said I keep it separated. But I mean, you can't keep ammunition hidden from five-year-olds, let alone a combat veteran. There's something that's kind of gone, I always try to think of how to word it properly because I don't want it to sound like in a negative way, but the best way that I can describe it is when you, when we get in those situations, because I could have walked right in that house and he could be in the attic, and he could have had a drop on me and just took me out, if he was prepared to do that, which some people are. That's the way, that's the route they're going to take. But our job, if you're on a patrol car, you're in a patrol car, you're answering calls for service, you're dealing with people at the lowest points of their life, it's inherently dangerous. Now given there's steps that we can take to stay safe and go home at the end of the night, but we're not guaranteed that when we start our shift. It's something that we have to take that risk on ourselves that I'm in a line of work where I'm not guaranteed to go home. So, let me try and help people when I can while I'm here, because I mean at the end of the day that's the best we got for them. >> Jonathan Elias: But you going into that call knowing this was a vet in distress and obviously with a pretty good skillset. Special forces, is that what it was? Yeah. So I'm imagining in your mind was talk, was that in your mind, this is going to be my first line of defense. I'm going to talk this guy off the ledge, and we need to get him down and look him in the eye. >> Jonathan Guider: Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Thor Eells: I think therein lies some of the dangers that we are predisposing ourselves to thinking there's a certain outcome that lies ahead. Every call for service an officer goes to that simulate that is potentially dangerous. And I think it is, quite honestly, a bit of a disservice to suggest that all of our veterans are going to predispose to some sort of act of violence towards law enforcement. And if our officer are being prepped to think that way, I personally, based on my experience, you're going to see young officers that might be a little bit more apt to misinterpret certain behaviors. Hence, the real need to better educate, you should, I think, approach a situation with a very open mind. That this person is a veteran, and I'm going to treat them with respect, like anybody else. I'm going to certainly use verbal skills. But our approach to managing danger does not change, nor should it change based upon, you know, a title or anything along those lines. >> Jonathan Elias: We say that. But I'm just saying that the overriding bubble in a young officer's mind when he's going out there is self-preservation first and foremost. >> Thor Eells: I think it depends on our training and how we have instructed them in how to manage incidents. >> Mark Lamb: And that's the key is being able to educate your people. We talked about this, we've been here for yesterday and today through the National Institute of Corrections through our Justice-Involved Veterans Network. And we've discussed a lot of the things that we need to educate, not only our officers on and our deputies, but we need to educate the public about the myths and the misnomers that are out there as they relate to law, as they relate to military. I agree with Thor. I think that, you know, we've got everybody, you treat every case as if they had a firearm. That's how we protect ourselves. And we shouldn't treat a veteran any different. We've got to train or people better to understand the humanity of the job that we do. >> Jonathan Elias: Of course. >> Mark Lamb: And I think that's just as important as the tactics piece of it. And I think that as long as we are, as long as we're pushing and forwarding those myths and misnomers, then we're doing a disservice to the veterans. >> Jonathan Elias: I guess for me, I'm just trying to think because the officer visually identified that there was a connection between the two of them. And you knew that he was a veteran and you yourself, so that visual for you kind of just brought everything down for you. So you knew how to play it. And then at the end of the day, humanity took over. I'm just wondering if there's a patch or a secret handshake. I mean that's what I'm trying to get it is can you deescalate a situation from go, from getting out of your car and face-to-face with the veteran so the veteran knows look, I'm not talking to somebody who doesn't know my language, you know. They know my language. >> Nicolas Hurst: You can, but you're basing that decision off the connection that you're able to make with that person. I mean I can talk to anybody in the street, and their actions will dictate my actions and vice versa. But -- >> Blair Myhand: And one thing we did with our training was to, you talk about a secret patch, Officer Guider has a veteran pin on his uniform that we created and gave to the people who finished, you know, completed the class. Because what we wanted was an opportunity that he could be talking to someone and that person realize, oh, you're a veteran. And that might even spark that, okay, let me calm down and -- >> Jonathan Elias: A connection. >> Blair Myhand: That connection. And what Guider said with Nick when he was tense and that look on his face, the reason he knew what was going on was because he's been in that same situation. And he knew what that look was. But you know, at that point we didn't have that. He knew that Nick was a veteran, but Nick didn't know that when he sees him coming up, he had to make that, establish that rapport and set that hook. So you know, if I take my, you know, if I put on a short-sleeved shirt, you'd say that guy's a veteran. I've got tattoos that kind of reflect that. And a lot of guys do. But you know, I put this on and, you know, maybe you'd pick me out of a crowd anyway. But, you know, veterans come in all shapes and sizes and colors, male and female and everything. So there's a whole bunch sitting here that, you know, we don't tattoo Vs on our forehead or something like that. >> Mark Lamb: Veterans are reading body language. So if an officer shows up and his body language is tense and -- >> Confrontational. >> Mark Lamb: And confrontational, that's what escalates the situation. Having, teaching your guys to be calm in situations, a lot of that just comes with the experience. But teaching those guys to be calm is what deescalates a lot of situations, not just with veterans, with anybody with mental health issues. So, it goes both ways. We're reading their body language. They're reading our body language. I think veteran helps, but that initial interaction is your body language and my body language is going to dictate how this is going to go. >> Jonathan Elias: Is it extensive training that is needed, or is it just an awareness that needs to be kind of applied. >> Thor Eells: It's greater awareness. We do little or no training in basic academies. So probably one of the most advanced classes that an officer can take now is CIT, crisis intervention training. It's a 40-hour class. Now I can tell you as a former paramedic, I received much, much more training in mental health as a paramedic than I ever did as a police officer, and I am still woefully inadequately trained to deal with a lot of these incidents. But it is a huge step towards the right direction. You know, mental health first aid can be either 8 or 16 hours, but it is creating a sense of awareness in the first responder in how to speak to people, to notice certain behavioral indicators, getting information, gathering information and then having some means of strategy and beginning how to speak to develop dialogue. All police officers have been trained in de-escalation for 40, 50, 60, 100 years. That's not really new. But what is new is we have had significant advances in the mental healthcare community and certain strategies, verbal language that can be utilized, behavioral indicators from our part, etcetera, that are just woefully undertrained in law enforcement in America today. >> Jonathan Guider: It's not something, going back to how you said is there a certain skillset and how much time is needed for that. I've never personally believed that it's really a teachable skillset. I think it's something, and anybody who's worked on the road or spent time dealing with the public, it's either something that, it's an ability you have inherently, or you don't. And in these scenarios, I think it goes a little bit further than just the ability to communicate effectively with people. I think you have to be able to empathize with others to be able to make that connection. >> Jonathan Elias: It's tough to teach empathy. >> Jonathan Guider: Well, you can't teach empathy. You either have it or you don't. And if you don't have empathy, then it's not saying you can't make that connection, but you know, again, for Nick and I, having been in that situation before, I knew how he felt. I could put myself in his shoes standing right there jumping out of the attic. I hadn't jumped out of an attic exactly like he did, but I'd been in similar situations where I was like everything could come crashing down right now. And so it was just good fortune that I was able to be the one to talk to him there that night and having shared experiences, able to empathize with is position. It just, it lined up to be able to benefit a lot of people. >> Blair Myhand: And we could do this training in five minutes. In fact, often in our classes I show a five-minute video where Jonathan is the star in it. And I'm like all right, training's over, because it's not that hard of a concept. >> Jonathan Elias: It's common sense. >> Blair Myhand: It is. We're brothers, you know. I didn't know him until a few years ago. He didn't know me. You know, I see somebody wearing a, you know, Vietnam veteran hat in the store, I can go up and have a conversation. But what we do is we try to take the time to focus them on the issues that they're dealing with. Remind them of who they are. We never compromise officer safety, and I strive that over and over again. Do not compromise your officer's safety. But I've seen as much healing in the class from the officers who are in there because some of these folks are dealing with their own issues. And you know, I somewhat jokingly say this that, you know, my purpose in doing this is somewhat self-serving in that when I'm in crisis one day, when I'm that guy, I want an Officer Guider coming to me or a Nick Hurst coming to me and getting me beyond that crisis moment. It's not that hard of a concept. In fact, every department in the country can start doing it right now. We just created a formalized program where we practice it, and we coach each other. Hey, try this this time. Don't just go up and say, oh you're a veteran? I'm a veteran too. And to think that that's going to solve all the issues. >> Jonathan Elias: Well, that was ingenious too, putting on the boards. Because most folks in the military when they see somebody wearing their dress uniforms, they look at people's boards to see what campaigns they've been on, so they immediately identified and looked at that and saw that. So that's an ingenious move on your part as well. Yes sir. >> Evan Seamone: One other part to remember is sometimes it may be as simple as just grounding the person by saying do you know where you are? Let's talk about where we are, because that uniform could trigger that dissociative kind of reaction where it's like oh, I'm back wherever I was, and these are some classic symptoms of posttraumatic stress syndrome. And that could be all that's necessary is helping the person -- >> Jonathan Elias: It's always the little things, the little things that you tweak. I know we have folks here, anybody have any questions, feel free at any point to raise your hand. We'd be happy to take your questions. Yes sir. >> I'm a 30-year veteran Army, National Guard [inaudible]. I'm also a county supervisor and some of my legislative responsibility included oversight of our sheriff's department. So one of the things that I've heard so far that I'm really interested in was that talk about being holistic and also in Mr. Thompson's opening comments his quote where he referenced that downward spiral. And one of the concerns that I have when I look at the system is that a lot of times that downward spiral starts already, not when they're veterans, but when it's active duty soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen. So, I'm curious about two things. First, I guess, for Major Seamone, and I don't know if you can really speak to it but since you're a JAG officer, I'm curious what, if anything, the Army and the DOD are doing to try to address nipping that in the bud because if it starts on active duty, it usually ends with a general discharge or a bad conduct discharge or a dishonorable discharge. And now you're throwing somebody out on the street who already had some issues, and you're taking away what they did have, which means they're coming in the front door for all of those departments with that preexisting set of problems. The second thing would be, you know, with all of the law enforcement experience on the panel, if you're aware of departments in areas with a high active duty population where they can take this same training approach and not just think of it as Justice-Involved Veterans, but a lot of times those active duty personnel live out in the civilian economy. And so the first law enforcement contact they're going to have when they have an issue is not with the military police, it's going to be with a civilian department. And so there's a whole continuum of things happening here, and I'm just kind of curious what your all's thoughts are. >> Evan Seamone: So I can speak from my own personal experience, again, not representing the position of any military organization. There is somewhat of an effort to try to really address the fact, especially misconduct during active duty, because I think we need to think about the fact that there's a lot of crimes in the military that just don't exist in the civilian world, right. So you've got disobeying a direct order, failing to show up to work, disrespectful behavior. You know combat and operational stress injuries, we could say someone's reaction to medication may stop them from being alert and awake and showing up to duty in the morning, that's a crime. So you have a lot more opportunities, unfortunately, to criminalize mental illness under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. In cases where it's part of the symptoms of conditions that come from serving and serving honorable at that. So the military is grappling with this. There's a couple of different things going on that makes it a tension. One of the things is hey, we have impressionable young soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. We need to show that there are consequences for misconduct. And if you have a unit where everyone thinks they're never going to be punished, then you'll have more misconduct, and you won't accomplish the military mission. So we're never going to reach a situation where I think we'll have blanket exceptions to these rules. One of the things that exist is 10 United States Code 1177, and it's a provision that says if someone's going to get kicked out administratively, if they either say or were diagnosed with PTSD or TBI within the last 24 months of having been deployed on a contingency mission or if they suffered military sexual assault, then that has to be considered by the command before they can kick them out with something like an other than honorable. Some people might say that's great. It certainly requires more attention. I defend clients on a regular basis. Like what about the three deployments six years ago, but that's not within the last 24 months. So really, there's no technical requirement, and it's like goodness. I would say it's interesting to look recently when he was secretary of defense, Secretary Mattis was saying we need to think about using the military justice system more to enforce discipline. We're not doing enough of it. So there's this tension. Something happened in 2017 called the Kurta Memorandum. And A. M. Kurta is like an undersecretary in the Department of Defense who said to the boards of correction for military records, you need to look better to see if there was misconduct that was related to mental health conditions. And you have a five-page memo on exactly how to evaluate that for the purposes of discharge upgrading. That has not made its way to active duty. So you have to wait years until afterwards to try to bring it up. Now when I go to an active duty board, I introduce that as evidence, and I ask them to consider the standard. But technically, it doesn't apply. >> Jonathan Elias: But part of his question too is when people are discharged and they leave in less than honorable situations, and perhaps they might be a ticking timebomb, how good is the VA at identifying that and how good is the military at letting a community know, this is what's going to be introduced into your neck of the woods? >> Jonathan Guider: Another, it's probably going to be one of those, I'm not saying the VA is perfect, but -- >> Jonathan Elias: You can say that. The VA is not perfect. I mean they do a damn good job, but there's no veterans out there that'll tell you -- >> Jonathan Guider: But I feel like that's kind of like the easy way out approach for a lot of people is they just go oh, the VA's terrible, [inaudible]. But that, some of that does fall on the veteran that, okay, if you believe you have an issue for anything -- >> Jonathan Elias: You've got to get help -- >> Jonathan Guider: You have to go to the, I mean if you want not to pay for it out of your own pocket, you've got to go to the VA for it. It may take a little bit longer depending on where you're at. But that's on you to get that, if you want to. And having the opportunity to meet Alario Pintano [phonetic] whose the director of VA Affairs in North Carolina through our training. He had a lot of things to say one time where he said for every person that had their legs blown off in a HUMV, I have five people filing disability claims for getting a papercut in Germany. And you hear that and you're like oh, that's ridiculous. And he says, but that's not to take away from the people who got a papercut in Germany. That's what their job was. That was their part of the cog of the wheel, and they deserve just as much, you know, they deserve the same sort of treatment. They might not need as much treatment, but they still deserve the same benefits. So there's just a lot of moving parts in that. >> Mark Lamb: And you know, I can't control what the military does or the VA does, but what I can control is what my role is. And so one of the things that we've tried in our county is we have started a veterans posse, and there's three missions to that veterans posse. One, to mentor those people who get out of our HUMV program. Two, just to give some comradery to your veterans in your community. And the third one is actually to acclimate those veterans who are coming home from deployment so that they don't, the biggest piece I think is the brotherhood, the loss of brotherhood when they leave and they come home. And if you can establish that through some veterans posses in your communities, I think you can bridge a lot of that. So that's something we've worked on. It's going to take us a little while to get it as robust and as functional as I would like to see it. >> Jonathan Elias: And that could be as simple as just going over to the house saying hey, welcome back, you know. Have coffee with them, talk about what they experienced, stuff like that. >> Blair Myhand: John, can I answer his second question? >> Jonathan Elias: Sure, please. >> Blair Myhand: You talked about communities having high veterans populations, and so where we were at in Apex and now in Clayton is not one of those communities really. But the value that I've added to this effort is that I've taken opportunities to speak all around the country. I've spoken in Chicago, in San Diego at the International Association of Chiefs of Police annual conference, and I've gone to chiefs and said, here's what we're doing. It's free. We're not making any money off this. We try to remove every obstacle. I can't pay for your travel, but we will provide lunch. We do everything that's free to get somebody there. And so that's how Nick got involved in this. I'm in fact, Thor, you'll be happy to know that I have somebody coming from Colorado Springs PD next week for training. There are four counties in North Carolina now, Cumberland County, which is Fort. Bragg, Durham County, Wake County and Johnson County, that are teaching this program. They're doing it in Delaware. They're doing it in Dayton, Ohio. They're, I've, you know, I go out and say come to me. You know, I don't, I'm a police chief. I can't travel around the country teaching this program. But if you can come to me, I'll teach you. I'll give you everything that we have created over five years. It's free. Because I want you to go home and do the same thing so you can save somebody's life. I don't, you know, if Saint Peter puts me to the front of line one day because of what I did here, great. But we want those high veteran population communities and the fact that Cumberland County, Fayetteville, North Carolina, are now doing this, and they've got 25 officers from the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office and Fayetteville PD, and they're interacting with veterans every day. We don't deal with that every day like that. So it's critical that those communities do this, because they're dealing with veterans that are either on, you know, active duty living in the community or a lot of times, you know, you get off active duty and you just stay. >> Evan Seamone: If someone was kicked out with bad paper, they may think, oh, I'm never going to get the VA services I need. It's not even worth it. That new memo that came out about upgrades, it's worth letting them know. It's worth trying again, because the standards have changed, especially for people who are already out. And one other thing is from the community coordinator managing perspective is try to find out if someone's headed out of the military with one of these discharges and try to work around that before they get out to set them up for the most success as they make their transition. >> Jonathan Elias: You had something to add as well? >> Thor Eells: Well I was going to mention to your point, I think it's the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And you know, that's what we're really trying to do. And in Colorado Springs, one of the things that we do is we have a monthly military collaborative meeting between the military and law enforcement leadership, and we talk about these issues, particularly veterans having difficulties, integrating back, etcetera. So, you know, programs like the sheriff's, phenomenal. They need to be replicated. The problem in the United States is we have 22,000 different law enforcement agencies, which means there's 22,000 different ways of doing business. >> Jonathan Elias: Approaches, yeah. >> Thor Eells: And we're constantly reinventing the wheel. So the chief's got a great program. In North Carolina, I hate to say it, there's a lot of agencies that still don't know about it, never heard about it. >> Jonathan Elias: But the way to look at this is there's a layer to add to your training. >> Thor Eells: And there's a lot more to it. You get engaged in that. What we do is we have a police officer, paramedic and licensed social worker that interface with the military on a regular basis ahead of time. But one of the problems that happen with law enforcement when you interface with a veteran in crisis, we may have those limited tools, but we don't even fully appreciate what are all of the resources in our own community that we can steer them towards. That's that prevention component of it is that we can better educate then. We can steer them in those directions as well. >> Jonathan Elias: Great idea. We have another question, yes mam. >> Thank you for being here today. I'm curious about a couple of things, and I'm thinking about some of this in terms of risk and protective factors. And perhaps one of the protective factors is education and training, you know, that's something that we're hearing. Is there a need for a more formalized education and training program and that will fall in more the protective factors realm? And if so, is that something that needs to be formalized nationally? >> Jonathan Elias: Are you talking about like at the police academy, add a course for young officers or cadets to -- >> Really not sure how it would happen. >> Mark Lamb: I can tell you from an administrative -- >> Through grants or, yeah. >> Mark Lamb: That's what we would need. Honestly, a lot of us struggle with training because of the budgets. Where the federal government could really help us is not necessarily, we talked about this in our meetings, not necessarily mandating certain things but providing the funding for us to be able to do the trainings, to be able to send people to get the adequate training. You've got law enforcement officials that have figured it out in certain categories, yet all of us are so struggling with budget. So that would be a big piece. The federal government coming in with a lot more money to be able to help us educate our guys. >> Thor Eells. And that's what we're trying to do with MIRACLE is a combination of federal funding, but what we're also doing is working with a lot of private sector philanthropists foundation community groups so that one, we're not beholding to federal money, which can come and go, depending on how things are working out at the time. But it's sustainable, and it's grassroots. It creates an opportunity for law enforcement to interface with the community, to get to know one another, to know the needs. And then through MIRACLE, a lot of the programs allow the community participants to design their own alternative response programs that will work in their communities. Not all communities are the same in the United States. And, you know, we have rural areas. We have urban areas. All those resources differ. So that's why we have that flexibility. But funding is a huge obstacle to law enforcement raining. >> Jonathan Elias: Hold on. Officer, so you had something you wanted to add. >> Nicolas Hurst: So for that gentleman's thing, and I'll answer yours as well. A lot of this is based off data collection. Data collection hasn't really taken place, and it's hard to find that data. So, like for instance, most people don't know that reservists have a higher percent rate of PTSD diagnosis than active duty Another one is is nine out of ten people that serve in the military have not served in combat, but yet, they have a PTSD diagnosis. Now granted, PTSD you don't need to serve in combat for diagnosis of that. But a lot of it's breaking those barriers and having data to support that so that we can go to the chief and we can go to the sheriffs and say hey, we need money for this training. This is why. But since nobody's collected that data, we can't go that way. And there's like even for me and I'm sure the other panelists, until I started working this route of setting up the team, I didn't know have the resources out there, and I am a veteran. And I have more access to those resources than the average veteran does because I've been out there digging to find them so that they can help our team out. >> Jonathan Elias: Yeah, you'd like to think those things are hiding in plain sight for all to see. I guess in the law enforcement standpoint, if you're going to go into battle, you need to know what your resources are. And if the battle is to win over the hearts and minds of returning vets, then you've got to know what's in your arsenal, i.e. programs that you can call. People and resources that you can reach out to. It makes perfect sense. >> Nicolas Hurst: The Veterans Treatment Courts. I mean how many people in this room know that we have Veterans Treatment Courts throughout the United States? >> Jonathan Elias: We do, because that was last year's panel. So. >> Blair Myhand: What I'll say with respect to the training real quick. I know there's another question. But what we found that worked based on our own experiences is we've really focused on local resources. And so we built our program that was scalable anywhere in the country. And so when Nick came and go the training, we trained him on these things that are consistent. Substance abuse among veterans is substance abuse among veterans. It doesn't matter if you're in Delaware or North Carolina. But what Nick had to do, and thank God that he did this in Delaware, is he went home and identified all those local resources, because the resources he has in Delaware are different than the ones I have in North Carolina. They're different than the ones they have in Fayetteville. So it takes someone in that local department, that county, to say I'm going to be the champion of this program, and we're going to identify all these nonprofits at work in our communities. And those are the ones that we're going to rely on first. The VA is going to be the follow up. So we want to find the dogs that we can give somebody. >> Jonathan Elias: And for anybody watching right now, via the internet, any deputy sheriffs, sheriffs or police chiefs, the internet is a wonderful resource that can expedite the process very quickly. We've got another question. One more question, and then we got to wrap things up. >> Hi, I'm a lieutenant with the Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services in Maryland. And we started in February a pilot project at our prison for, to have a veterans tier, like you have your veterans pod. I was wondering if you offer your veterans any specialized programming to help them during their incarceration and for when they get out? >> Mark Lamb: That's a great question. We actually have them busy from eight in the morning until five in the afternoon. We have alcoholics anonymous they go to. We have art. We have canine therapy. We actually have probably about eight to ten different therapies that come throughout the week to include people that are specialized in dealing with PTSD and helping them recognize the PTSD. So, yes, it is very program heavy. And it's kind of nice because I can, people say well don't you care about your other inmates. And what I can do is I can actually try these programs on a micro level, and if they work, I can roll them on a macro level throughout the rest of my facilities. So, it is two-fold. I can address the veterans, but at the same time, I'm learning about how I can help the rest of my population as well. >> Is there any way I can get your contact information? >> Mark Lamb: Absolutely, yes. >> Jonathan Elias: He's easy to find. He's the big guy with the cowboy hat. We got to wrap things up. I think you very much for being here this afternoon. Thank you for your great questions and your involvement as well. I hope to see you tonight on the news. This is my shameless plug, it's ABC 7, 5, 6 and 11. Make it a part of your religious behavior, please. Every day, okay. Thank you for being here. Have a great day. [ Applause ] Thank you guys very much. Great job. Jonathan, great job.