WEBVTT
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>> Carla Hayden: Good morning.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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I'm Carla Hayden, the
Librarian of Congress,
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and I hope you all have
been enjoying yourselves
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this morning.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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Now, we have a rather
large crowd this morning
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for this particular session.
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And that's why I'm very thrilled
to introduce our next program.
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For the past year at the Library
of Congress -- you may sit down.
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Because I have a
few more things.
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For the past year at
the Library of Congress,
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we have been celebrating
change makers.
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And I can think of few people
who more than aptly fit
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that description and the United
States Supreme Court Justice
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Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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Okay, I'm going to hurry up.
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She is a hero and an
inspiration to so many of us.
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In fact, at 4am this morning,
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students from American
University,
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who are right over there.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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Camped out in front of this
facility, and they are here.
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She says -- and I said, um,
Justice, I'm going to talk
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about your graduation
from Columbia Law School,
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and taught at Rutgers and
Columbia, and spend most
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of your career advocating
on women's rights,
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and all of these things.
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And you've been called recently
the Beyoncé of Juris Prudence.
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[ Cheering ]
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And the Jus -- I
said, can I say that?
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She said, I'd rather
you say the J-Lo.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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So, without further ado, she
is joined by her co-authors
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of her best-selling
memoire, My Own Words ,
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co-authors Mary Hartnett,
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adjunct professor
at Georgetown Law.
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Wendy W. Williams, a Professor
Emeritus at Georgetown Law,
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and her interviewer today
and the interviewer --
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the person you know very well
from NPR, Miss Nina Totenberg.
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So, the Notorious RBG.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Please be seated.
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This way? Okay.
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Good.
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>> Carla Hayden: And I have
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to tell you before I leave the
stage, I want to shake her hand.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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>> Nina Totenberg: Well,
I want to give her a hug,
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but that would be
very unprofessional.
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So, this is quite an
amazing group and I --
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I'm very admiring of all the
people who have been online
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for so many hours, and
waiting to see the Justice.
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There's a lot to see,
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even though she's a
pretty little person.
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So, how about J-Lo?
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How did that happen?
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
I was called about a month
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or so ago by Jennifer
Lopez, and she said,
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she would like to meet me
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and introduce her
fiancé Alex Rodriguez.
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So, they came to chambers
and we had a very nice visit.
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She mostly wanted to
ask if I had any secret
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about a happy marriage.
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But now A-Rod is
traveling with her
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to concerts all over the world.
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>> Nina Totenberg: So, what was
your secret to a happy marriage?
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Did you pass on your
mother-in-law secret?
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
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On the day I was married
my mother-in-law --
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I was married in her home --
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she took me aside
and said she wanted
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to tell me what was the
secret of a happy marriage.
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And I said, I'd be
glad to hear it.
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What is it?
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And she responded, it helps
sometimes to be a little deaf.
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And that good advice
I have followed
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in every workplace [laughter],
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including the good
job I now have.
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So, if an unkind word,
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a thoughtless word is
said, you just tune out.
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[ Applause ]
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>> Nina Totenberg: I would
personally advise that instead
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of Chairman Mao you
listen to Justice Ruth.
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Justice Ginsburg, we all
know you've had some health
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challenges in the last
year, the last month.
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You had radiation
for most of August.
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So, let me ask you the question
that everyone here wants to ask,
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which is how are you feeling,
why are you here instead
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of resting up for the term
[laughter], and are you planning
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on staying in your current job?
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>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: How am I feeling?
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Well, first this audience
can see that I am alive.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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And I am on my way
to being very well.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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>> Nina Totenberg: And
why are you here instead
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of resting up for the term?
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>> Ruth Bader Ginsburg; The term
we have more than a month left
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to go, so I'll be prepared
when the time comes.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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>> Nina Totenberg: So how
do you just keep trucking'?
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
Well, one thing, I love my --
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the best and the hardest job
I ever had and it's what --
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it has kept me going
through four cancer bouts.
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Instead of concentrating on
my aches and pains I just know
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that I have to read
this set of briefs,
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go over the draft
opinion, and so I have
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to somehow surmount
whatever my --
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whatever is going on in
my body and concentrate
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on -- on the courts work.
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>> Nina Totenberg: So your
book In My Own Words ,
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it's the first essentially
of two by Mary Hartnett
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and Wendy Williams, and you
in some -- in the first one,
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because it tells a lot of your
own words from the time you were
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in grammar school and
writing for the school paper,
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and opinion pieces to your
Supreme Court opinions.
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And then there's going to be
a later authorized biography.
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These two ladies have been
working on it for some time.
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So, Mary Hartnett, let me turn
to you for a moment and ask you
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about the upcoming book.
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I hesitate to ask this,
because I'm going to do it
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because at least I
have 4,000 witnesses.
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When --
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
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That My Own Words
was to be second.
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My official biographers
Mary and Wendy have been
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at work how many years is it?
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>> Mary Hartnett: Fifteen years.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Fifteen years.
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>> Nina Totenberg: 2004.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
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The idea is the book would come
out, the biography would come
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out and would be
followed by selections
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from speeches I'd given,
opinions I'd written.
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But the years well, going on
and on, and then it came to me
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that Mary and Wendy expected
that I would be on the court
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for some time into the future.
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So, they -- to make the book
complete they wanted to wait.
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And I said okay,
let's flip the order.
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Let's have my selected
writings first
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and then -- then the biography.
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>> Mary Hartnett: And
it was a marvelous idea.
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>> Nina Totenberg: So, you
still haven't said when.
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>> Mary Hartnett: Oh.
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>> Nina Totenberg: That is my
job to ask questions, you know.
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>> Mary Hartnett: This
Justice keeps doing thing
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and we're very happy about that.
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[ Cheering and Applause ]
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And so, it will be --
the idea originally was
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that it would break the
story of Justice Ginsburg.
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It was before she was notorious.
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But now, [laughter] it will
be the complete full story
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and so we want to wait
until we have that
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and hopefully it will
not come out very soon.
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[ Laughter and Applause ]
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>> Nina Totenberg:
Well done Mary.
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[ Applause ]
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So, I talked to you a little
bit about the upcoming book.
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You won't tell me
much, but I do know
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that there's a whole chapter
about Justice Antonin Scalia.
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Justice Ginsburg's great
friend, sparing partner,
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and entertainer in some ways.
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So, tell me why there is
a whole chapter about him
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and about your interview of him?
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>> Mary Hartnett: Sure, so
there's also a whole chapter
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of him -- about him
in My Own Words ,
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including Justice
Ginsburg's reminiscence
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about -- about Justice Scalia.
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And everyone I think
in this room knows
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about the unlikely
friendship between the two.
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And interviewing Justice Scalia
was a real treat for the book.
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And we interviewed
him for the biography,
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but parts of that interview
are in My Own Words .
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And as Justice Scalia
and Justice Ginsburg are
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so different in so many ways,
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going into his chambers
was very different.
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Justice Ginsburg's are light,
airy, modern art, dozens,
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or hundreds of pictures of
friends, family, colleagues.
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And going into Justice Scalia's
chamber it's dark, leathery.
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There's a big dead
animal looking
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down [laughter] at
you from the wall.
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And so, as I sat there
interviewing Justice Scalia,
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I watched how he went from
the kind of tough Juris
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that we all know, and his face
just softened and lightened
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up as he talked about
his good friend Ruth.
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And he -- he told
several stories.
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One was when they traveled to
India together and they went
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to visit the Taj mahal,
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and Justice Scalia described
how he watched Justice Ginsburg
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listen to the tour guide
describe the love story behind
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the building of the Taj mahal.
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And he said tears start
to stream from her eyes.
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And as he told me that I 98%
sure I saw a tear not related
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to an opinion or a descent come
out of his [laughter] eyes.
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And the other story
that he liked to talk
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about was parasailing.
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Justice Ginsburg at -- when
she was a young 70-year-old,
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was in Nice for a legal
exchange and was standing
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in the hotel looking
out at the water
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and saw all these
people parasailing.
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And she turned to her husband
Marty and said, Marty that looks
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like fun, we should do that.
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Marty looked horrified
and said, are you crazy?
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And if you do that,
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I'll remember you to
our grandchildren.
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The dean who was the host said,
I'll go parasailing with you.
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This was Dean Yellin.
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And his wife was equally
horrified and she said,
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if there's an accident
and they can only save one
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of you, it better not be you.
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But so, to -- so they
went parasailing.
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They had to adjust for weight
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because Dean Yellin was a
normal sized human being
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and there was Justice Ginsburg.
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And off they went, and they
went up and down, up and down.
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Plopped into the water.
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And Wendy and I asked
Justice Ginsburg
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about this experience
a few years ago
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when we were interviewing her
and said, what was it like?
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Did you like it?
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And Justice Ginsburg said,
it was marvelous, glorious.
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And then she related it of
course to a Greek myth and said,
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it was like Icarus, but we
didn't get too close to the sun.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
The weight was also a problem
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in Registan when we took a ride
on a very elegant elephant.
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And there was a photograph
of it.
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My feminist friends
asked why are you sitting
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in the back of the elephant?
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And I explained it had to do
with the distribution of weight.
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>> Nina Totenberg:
Justice Ginsburg,
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you've always been a
rather determined person.
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When you were in law school
you husband was diagnosed
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with testicular cancer.
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Doctors told you his chances of
survival were extremely slim.
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But the two of you
just carried on.
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And as we all know, he survived.
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But I thought people here might
be interested in what your days
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and nights were like
in that year.
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And how -- how in
some ways it set
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up your sleep patterns for life.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
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It was my second
year in law school.
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Marty's third year.
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And it was massive surgery
followed by massive radiation.
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There was not chemotherapy
in -- in those days.
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We just took each
day as it came.
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My routine was I would
attend my classes.
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I had note takers in
all of Marty's classes.
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I would then go to Mass
General, the hospital
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where he was, in the afternoon.
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And then when he was
released from the hospital
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and was having daily radiation,
he was first very sick
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and then he would sleep
until about midnight,
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when whatever food he ingested
16:36.760 --> 16:42.490
that day he would have
my not very good cooking.
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But [laughter] and then
again about 2 o'clock
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in the morning -- oh,
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he was also dictating
his senior paper to me.
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He went back to bed about
two in the morning and that's
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when I hit the books myself.
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And in between there
was our then two
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and a half year old daughter.
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So, I, for weeks, many weeks
I was sleeping maybe two hours
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a night.
17:09.840 --> 17:14.140
And that's how I
became a night person.
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I appreciated that in
those early morning hours,
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the telephone didn't ring, there
were no emails in those days.
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It was a quiet time.
17:23.370 --> 17:29.300
I could concentrate
on the books.
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>> Nina Totenberg: Well,
I hope you're getting more
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than two hours these days.
17:32.170 --> 17:34.220
I do know that if you want
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to call the Ginsburg residence
you do not -- on a day --
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like a weekend day, you
do not call before noon.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
That's not true on sitting days.
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>> Nina Totenberg: That's not
true on court days at all.
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So today women --
to some extend --
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take for granted their
equality in the workplace.
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But that was not the case
when you were a young lawyer.
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You couldn't get a
job in a law firm.
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You had not one, but
two strikes against you.
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You were? It was three --
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
Well, I was first a Jew
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and there were many --
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>> Nina Totenberg:
Three strikes.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Law --
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well known firms in New
York that would not get
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up to welcoming to Jews.
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The next, I was a woman.
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That was a higher barrier.
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But the absolute killer was I
had a four-year-old daughter
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when I graduated
from law school.
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>> Nina Totenberg:
You were a mother.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
So, if they would take a chance
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on a woman, a mother was more
than they were willing to risk.
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>> Nina Totenberg: So, you
had top grades at Harvard
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and in your last year of
law school when you moved
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to New York with your husband,
you were tied for first place
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at Columbia Law School.
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And you're applying
for clerkships.
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And -- tell us how you
finally did get a clerkship.
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Because nobody by and large
would even interview you
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for the most part.
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>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Yes,
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those were pre-Title VII days.
19:20.090 --> 19:22.070
So, employers were up front
19:22.070 --> 19:28.170
about saying women are not
welcome at this workplace
19:28.170 --> 19:33.540
or we had a lady lawyer
once and she was dreadful.
19:33.540 --> 19:40.970
So how many men have you
had that didn't work out?
19:40.970 --> 19:44.170
But I had a wonderful
professor at Columbia Law School
19:44.170 --> 19:48.650
who later moved to
Stanford, Gerry Gunther.
19:48.650 --> 19:50.540
He was in charge of
getting clerkships
19:50.540 --> 19:57.140
for Columbia students, and
he called every federal judge
19:57.140 --> 19:58.920
in the Second Circuit.
19:58.920 --> 20:03.200
In the southern east --
eastern districts of New York,
20:03.200 --> 20:07.410
and he was not meeting
with success.
20:07.410 --> 20:13.090
So, he called a Columbia
graduate, Judge Edmond Palmieri,
20:13.090 --> 20:16.400
who was a Columbia
undergraduate,
20:16.400 --> 20:18.270
Columbia Law School graduate,
20:18.270 --> 20:21.950
and always took his
clerks from Columbia.
20:21.950 --> 20:27.460
And he said, I strongly
recommend
20:27.460 --> 20:31.200
that you engage Ruth
Bader Ginsburg.
20:31.200 --> 20:36.920
And Palmieri's response was,
I've had women law clerks.
20:36.920 --> 20:38.990
I know they're okay.
20:38.990 --> 20:43.580
But she's a mother and
sometimes we have to work
20:43.580 --> 20:49.150
on weekends, even on a Sunday.
20:49.150 --> 20:53.530
So, Professor Gunther
said, give her a chance
20:53.530 --> 20:56.490
and if she doesn't
work out a young man
20:56.490 --> 20:58.710
in her class who's going
20:58.710 --> 21:03.710
to a downtown firm will
jump in and take over.
21:03.710 --> 21:05.930
So that was the carrot.
21:05.930 --> 21:08.420
It was a stick.
21:08.420 --> 21:12.210
And the stick was if you
don't give her a chance,
21:12.210 --> 21:18.240
I will never recommend
another Columbia graduate
21:18.240 --> 21:20.510
as your law clerk.
21:20.510 --> 21:26.140
[ Laughter and Applause ]
21:26.140 --> 21:33.700
That's the way it was in not
so ancient days for women.
21:33.700 --> 21:38.200
The big hurdle was to
get that first job.
21:38.200 --> 21:41.350
Once a woman got the job,
21:41.350 --> 21:44.560
she did it at least
as well as the men.
21:44.560 --> 21:50.030
So, the second job was
not the same obstacle.
21:50.030 --> 21:53.520
There's a wonderful book --
21:53.520 --> 21:56.790
this is a meeting about
books, so let me mention it.
21:56.790 --> 21:58.360
It's called First .
21:58.360 --> 21:59.870
And it's about --
21:59.870 --> 22:03.820
it's a biography of
Sandra Day O'Connor.
22:03.820 --> 22:10.430
She was very high in her
class at Stanford Law School,
22:10.430 --> 22:14.830
but no law firm would hire her.
22:14.830 --> 22:19.750
She was asked to type and
maybe there would be a place
22:19.750 --> 22:22.710
as a legal secretary.
22:22.710 --> 22:24.580
So, what did she do?
22:24.580 --> 22:28.600
She went to a county attorney
and said, I will work for you
22:28.600 --> 22:32.150
without pay for four months.
22:32.150 --> 22:34.470
And then if you think
I'm worth it,
22:34.470 --> 22:36.990
you can put me on the payroll.
22:36.990 --> 22:42.080
That's how Sandra Day
O'Connor got her first job.
22:42.080 --> 22:43.900
>> Nina Totenberg: But even
22:43.900 --> 22:46.370
after your clerkship
you couldn't get a job
22:46.370 --> 22:47.670
in a law firm.
22:47.670 --> 22:50.530
You ended up being
a law professor.
22:50.530 --> 22:53.370
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
No, I could have gotten a job.
22:53.370 --> 22:58.170
In fact, I was going to a
firm when another professor
22:58.170 --> 23:03.100
from Columbia, Hans
Smit, said, how would you
23:03.100 --> 23:07.000
like to write a book about
the Swedish judicial system?
23:07.000 --> 23:08.300
Well --
23:08.300 --> 23:09.940
>> Nina Totenberg:
This is a part
23:09.940 --> 23:13.360
of her life you will not
hear generally discussed,
23:13.360 --> 23:19.200
so you're in on a question
that normally doesn't come up.
23:19.200 --> 23:23.980
How is your Swedish by the way?
23:23.980 --> 23:27.820
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
[Inaudible], but anyway,
23:27.820 --> 23:35.700
this was an irresistible offer,
because here I was in my 20s,
23:35.700 --> 23:42.420
before I turned 30, I would
have a book between hard covers.
23:42.420 --> 23:46.470
Marty and I married the same
month I graduated from Cornell.
23:46.470 --> 23:49.080
So, I never lived on my own.
23:49.080 --> 23:52.750
I went from a college
dormitory to being married.
23:52.750 --> 23:55.910
And I had what might be
called the eight year itch.
23:55.910 --> 24:00.630
I wanted to see if I
could manage on my own.
24:00.630 --> 24:04.240
And the deal was, I
would go to Sweden.
24:04.240 --> 24:09.100
My daughter Jane would be
taken care of by her father
24:09.100 --> 24:13.650
for about six weeks and when
she finished school she came
24:13.650 --> 24:16.090
and joined me in Sweden.
24:16.090 --> 24:21.260
And I got that out of my system.
24:21.260 --> 24:26.380
I never again, yearned
to live on my own.
24:26.380 --> 24:29.720
Oh, and then there was
the opportunity to learn
24:29.720 --> 24:35.030
about a culture and
to learn a language
24:35.030 --> 24:39.530
that I knew nothing
at all about.
24:39.530 --> 24:43.010
>> Nina Totenberg: So, you --
Wendy, did you -- one of you --
24:43.010 --> 24:44.440
did you go to Sweden with her?
24:44.440 --> 24:45.740
>> Mary Hartnett: I did.
24:45.740 --> 24:47.040
>> Nina Totenberg: You
-- Mary you went to --
24:47.040 --> 24:48.520
she went back to
Sweden this year.
24:48.520 --> 24:50.110
>> Wendy Williams: This year.
24:50.110 --> 24:51.410
>> Mary Hartnett: Yes.
24:51.410 --> 24:52.710
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
It was the 50th anniversary
24:52.710 --> 24:56.340
of my honorary degree from
the University of Lund.
24:56.340 --> 24:58.410
>> Nina Totenberg:
And you saw there --
24:58.410 --> 25:00.900
what did you see in the streets?
25:00.900 --> 25:02.200
Your picture.
25:02.200 --> 25:03.500
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Yes.
25:03.500 --> 25:06.740
>> Mary Hartnett: There were
posters up and down the streets
25:06.740 --> 25:08.590
of one of the many, many,
25:08.590 --> 25:10.820
many events that the
Justice did in Sweden.
25:10.820 --> 25:15.060
She was very overprogrammed,
three or four events a day.
25:15.060 --> 25:16.760
But she wasn't daunted.
25:16.760 --> 25:18.870
But we kept trying
to see the poster
25:18.870 --> 25:20.950
as the car was zooming
through the streets.
25:20.950 --> 25:24.860
And it was like that
scene in the movie,
25:24.860 --> 25:27.710
French Kiss where they
never see the Eifel Tower.
25:27.710 --> 25:30.290
We kept looking and looking
[laughter], and finally driving
25:30.290 --> 25:32.070
to the airport, remember?
25:32.070 --> 25:36.730
We turned and there it was.
25:36.730 --> 25:38.030
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Yes.
25:38.030 --> 25:39.330
>> Nina Totenberg: Wendy,
you've been working on this book
25:39.330 --> 25:41.190
for 15 years with Mary.
25:41.190 --> 25:44.780
Did you interview all of the
justices she served with?
25:44.780 --> 25:47.000
How often did you interview her?
25:47.000 --> 25:55.310
What do you do when you
have 15 plus years --
25:55.310 --> 25:58.590
what is your agenda?
25:58.590 --> 26:00.010
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
Wendy before you answer,
26:00.010 --> 26:03.270
let me tell you how
all this began.
26:03.270 --> 26:04.910
So --
26:04.910 --> 26:06.210
>> Nina Totenberg: You're
not going to get to talk.
26:06.210 --> 26:07.510
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
So, Wendy and Mary came
26:07.510 --> 26:10.670
to see me and they said,
inevitably people are going
26:10.670 --> 26:16.310
to write about your life,
so why don't you make
26:16.310 --> 26:20.830
as your official biographers,
people you really trust.
26:20.830 --> 26:24.160
And I certainly trusted --
Wendy and I were in the trenches
26:24.160 --> 26:29.390
in the 70s, when for the
first time in history,
26:29.390 --> 26:32.830
it became possible
for courts to accept
26:32.830 --> 26:36.490
that the equal protection
clause meant
26:36.490 --> 26:40.510
that women were people
equally statured to men.
26:40.510 --> 26:48.040
[ Cheering and Applause ]
26:48.040 --> 26:55.310
So, I knew Wendy's strategy and
mine were pretty much the same.
26:55.310 --> 27:00.450
I knew that she understood what
we were trying to accomplish.
27:00.450 --> 27:02.790
So, I said yes without
hesitation.
27:02.790 --> 27:05.890
>> Wendy Williams:
In fact, when we --
27:05.890 --> 27:08.170
when we came to her
to talk about it,
27:08.170 --> 27:11.180
she sat us down at a little
table and on the table,
27:11.180 --> 27:15.190
there was a stack of
documents and opinions,
27:15.190 --> 27:17.650
and other things
about this high.
27:17.650 --> 27:19.470
And she said, oh here's
a little something
27:19.470 --> 27:21.820
that you might want to look at.
27:21.820 --> 27:26.130
That's how we knew we
were in so to speak.
27:26.130 --> 27:27.430
>> Nina Totenberg: So, did you
27:27.430 --> 27:31.170
in fact interview all the
justices she served with?
27:31.170 --> 27:33.170
>> Wendy Williams: I
did not interview any
27:33.170 --> 27:36.200
of the justices she
served with, but Mary did.
27:36.200 --> 27:39.960
>> Nina Totenberg: Did the
two -- between the two of you,
27:39.960 --> 27:42.160
you interviewed them all?
27:42.160 --> 27:43.460
>> Wendy Williams: We did.
27:43.460 --> 27:44.760
>> Mary Hartnett:
Actually, not all of them.
27:44.760 --> 27:46.550
>> Wendy Williams: Some
refused to be interviewed.
27:46.550 --> 27:49.750
>> Mary Hartnett: Well, and
there are some newer additions
27:49.750 --> 27:51.980
that will -- that we
still plan to interview.
27:51.980 --> 27:53.520
But most of them.
27:53.520 --> 27:56.630
>> Nina Totenberg: And how
often did you sit down with her
27:56.630 --> 27:58.550
for an extended interview?
27:58.550 --> 27:59.920
I'm assuming it's a lot.
27:59.920 --> 28:01.740
>> Wendy Williams:
Well, it's a lot.
28:01.740 --> 28:08.120
We started out in that
little moment in time
28:08.120 --> 28:12.790
after she was done with her
summary and just before she had
28:12.790 --> 28:17.070
to knuckle down and
prepare for the coming term.
28:17.070 --> 28:22.120
And every year in August prob
-- most often in the last week,
28:22.120 --> 28:28.110
we -- we sit down with her
for three days in a row
28:28.110 --> 28:29.540
in the late afternoon.
28:29.540 --> 28:33.210
So, we have our own
big stack from that.
28:33.210 --> 28:36.670
And she -- and this year
it was a little different.
28:36.670 --> 28:42.240
We went up to New York where
she was getting her radiation
28:42.240 --> 28:46.300
treatment and it was
amazing -- how could you --
28:46.300 --> 28:52.780
anyway, so we sat with her
twice up there and she --
28:52.780 --> 28:54.490
she remembered everything.
28:54.490 --> 28:58.440
She was perfectly normal,
except she was very tired,
28:58.440 --> 29:00.220
which she has never let stop her
29:00.220 --> 29:03.630
and she wasn't letting
it stop her then.
29:03.630 --> 29:08.010
And that was -- and that was --
that was a new experience for us
29:08.010 --> 29:11.520
in New York, but then we
came back down for one day --
29:11.520 --> 29:15.020
day before yesterday --
and did you third day.
29:15.020 --> 29:16.380
So, every year we do that.
29:16.380 --> 29:19.440
And then we do a lot
of things in between
29:19.440 --> 29:21.630
and to keep track of her.
29:21.630 --> 29:24.400
>> Nina Totenberg: So, let me
just say this to you two here
29:24.400 --> 29:26.550
in front of God and everybody.
29:26.550 --> 29:31.340
Justice Brennan famously
had an authorized biographer
29:31.340 --> 29:34.180
who got writers block
after he died.
29:34.180 --> 29:38.000
And somebody else eventually
had to take over the project.
29:38.000 --> 29:39.930
>> Wendy Williams: Yes,
and I'm getting old.
29:39.930 --> 29:41.290
Is that what you're saying?
29:41.290 --> 29:43.350
[ Laughter ]
29:43.350 --> 29:44.650
>> Nina Totenberg:
I'm saying to you,
29:44.650 --> 29:45.950
you better note get
writers block.
29:45.950 --> 29:49.470
We all want -- we
all want to see that.
29:49.470 --> 29:52.500
Everybody here, some of whom are
a great deal younger than me,
29:52.500 --> 29:55.790
want to be able to read
the product of your labors.
29:55.790 --> 29:58.510
>> Wendy Williams:
Well, we do too, so.
29:58.510 --> 30:02.540
[ Applause ]
30:02.540 --> 30:04.210
>> Nina Totenberg: You know,
I'm taking for granted,
30:04.210 --> 30:09.560
this is a very educated
and curious audience.
30:09.560 --> 30:11.340
I'm taking for granted
that everybody
30:11.340 --> 30:16.030
in this room has seen
RBG at least once.
30:16.030 --> 30:18.040
[ Applause ]
30:18.040 --> 30:20.130
And On the Basis of Sex .
30:20.130 --> 30:26.150
So, I'm not going to go
through all of the cases
30:26.150 --> 30:29.920
and the strategy and all of
that of Justice Ginsburg.
30:29.920 --> 30:32.860
Because there are other
places where you've seen this.
30:32.860 --> 30:38.030
But there are also a young
people in this audience.
30:38.030 --> 30:40.480
Men and women.
30:40.480 --> 30:45.250
And I wanted to ask Justice
Ginsburg, in light of that
30:45.250 --> 30:47.250
and in light of all
of the conversation
30:47.250 --> 30:50.320
that we have these days
about balance between work
30:50.320 --> 30:55.010
and family life, do tell us the
story of the elevator thief.
30:55.010 --> 30:57.010
[ Laughter ]
30:57.010 --> 30:58.310
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
30:58.310 --> 31:04.770
The elevator thief
was my lively son.
31:04.770 --> 31:09.160
It was when he was
in the 6th grade.
31:09.160 --> 31:11.400
I called him lively.
31:11.400 --> 31:15.600
His teachers called
him hyperactive.
31:15.600 --> 31:19.690
And I would get calls about
once every month to come
31:19.690 --> 31:27.760
down to the school to talk
about my son's latest escapade.
31:27.760 --> 31:32.400
But one day I was sitting in my
office at Columbia Law School,
31:32.400 --> 31:37.230
the phone range, it
was the headmaster.
31:37.230 --> 31:40.110
We need to see you immediately.
31:40.110 --> 31:43.780
Now I'd been particularly weary
that day because I had stayed
31:43.780 --> 31:47.590
up all night writing a brief.
31:47.590 --> 31:52.400
So, I said, this
child has two parents.
31:52.400 --> 31:56.510
Please alternate calls,
and it's his father's turn.
31:56.510 --> 32:03.040
[ Cheering and Applause ]
32:03.040 --> 32:05.420
So, they called Marty
who was then the head
32:05.420 --> 32:08.370
of the tax department
at a large law firm.
32:08.370 --> 32:15.830
he came down and was told
your son stole the elevator.
32:15.830 --> 32:22.290
And Marty's immediate response
was, he stole the elevator?
32:22.290 --> 32:26.940
How far could he take it?
32:26.940 --> 32:29.620
So, I don't if it was
Marty's sense of humor --
32:29.620 --> 32:31.890
by the way, the theft was --
32:31.890 --> 32:34.650
it was one of those
old-fashioned
32:34.650 --> 32:36.730
handheld elevators.
32:36.730 --> 32:39.690
The operator went
out for a smoke,
32:39.690 --> 32:43.090
one of James' classmates
challenges him
32:43.090 --> 32:48.770
to take the kindergarten
class up to the top floor.
32:48.770 --> 32:52.860
>> Wendy Williams: Which he did.
32:52.860 --> 32:57.260
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
So, after that episode,
32:57.260 --> 33:01.650
the calls came barely
once a semester.
33:01.650 --> 33:06.390
There was no quick change
in my son's behavior.
33:06.390 --> 33:10.960
But the school was much more
reluctant to take a father away
33:10.960 --> 33:14.830
from his work than a mother.
33:14.830 --> 33:22.510
So, the suggestion to
alternate calls did the trick.
33:22.510 --> 33:25.110
[ Applause ]
33:25.110 --> 33:27.390
>> Nina Totenberg:
So, I want to --
33:27.390 --> 33:28.690
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Let me just add that,
33:28.690 --> 33:32.880
that son is today
a fine human and.
33:32.880 --> 33:35.140
>> Nina Totenberg: He's
not in prison anywhere.
33:35.140 --> 33:36.700
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
And he's a great parent
33:36.700 --> 33:39.410
to two -- to two girls.
33:39.410 --> 33:41.450
>> Nina Totenberg: And because
she won't do it, I will.
33:41.450 --> 33:46.490
He has -- he runs a thing called
Cedille Records, C-E-D-I-L-L-E.
33:46.490 --> 33:50.560
And they product magnificent
classical recordings.
33:50.560 --> 33:54.510
Okay, that's my -- that
would be inappropriate
33:54.510 --> 33:57.940
for you to do but not me.
33:57.940 --> 34:01.930
So, let's talk about your
time on the Supreme Court.
34:01.930 --> 34:04.830
You're appointed by
President Clinton.
34:04.830 --> 34:12.580
And within three years of
getting to the Supreme Court,
34:12.580 --> 34:14.940
you're still a very
junior justice.
34:14.940 --> 34:22.200
You're assigned to write the
Virginia Military Institute case
34:22.200 --> 34:28.300
striking down their policy
of exclusion of women.
34:28.300 --> 34:33.850
And you -- you would not have
gotten that -- that assignment,
34:33.850 --> 34:37.420
but for your female
colleague, Justice O'Connor.
34:37.420 --> 34:38.720
Right?
34:38.720 --> 34:40.020
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Yes.
34:40.020 --> 34:44.640
The seniority is very
big in our workplace.
34:44.640 --> 34:50.860
So, Justice O'Connor would
have been way ahead of me
34:50.860 --> 34:54.240
as the chosen opinion writer.
34:54.240 --> 34:59.810
But Sandra said, Ruth
should write this opinion.
34:59.810 --> 35:02.790
So, it was thanks to
Justice O'Connor that I got
35:02.790 --> 35:04.970
to write the decision
35:04.970 --> 35:08.550
in the Virginia Military
Institute case.
35:08.550 --> 35:14.220
>> Nina Totenberg: So, you
wrote in that case that most --
35:14.220 --> 35:19.660
most women -- indeed most
men would probably not want
35:19.660 --> 35:23.770
to meet the demands, the
rigorous demands of the MI,
35:23.770 --> 35:25.520
but those extraordinary
individuals
35:25.520 --> 35:27.320
who can meet those
demands and want
35:27.320 --> 35:30.550
to meet those demands
should be permitted to.
35:30.550 --> 35:33.640
So, you were invited
to VMI a little
35:33.640 --> 35:39.390
over a year ago I
think, to give a speech.
35:39.390 --> 35:41.180
How did that go?
35:41.180 --> 35:43.670
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
In fact, they had invited me
35:43.670 --> 35:49.250
to come to VMI at the 20th
anniversary of the decision.
35:49.250 --> 35:51.850
My calendar was too
crowded, so it turned
35:51.850 --> 35:55.180
out to be the 21st anniversary.
35:55.180 --> 35:58.530
And you were with me.
35:58.530 --> 35:59.830
>> Mary Hartnett: Yes.
35:59.830 --> 36:01.130
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: For that.
36:01.130 --> 36:06.750
The change in that
school has been enormous.
36:06.750 --> 36:15.790
the commanding officer was
so proud of his women cadets.
36:15.790 --> 36:21.380
They live in the same spartan
quarters that the men live in.
36:21.380 --> 36:25.460
But they were so enthusiastic.
36:25.460 --> 36:28.320
Many of them were in
the engineering program.
36:28.320 --> 36:31.960
One wanted to be an
atomic scientist.
36:31.960 --> 36:37.970
For the school, by
admitting women they were able
36:37.970 --> 36:42.510
to upgrade their
applicant pool considerably.
36:42.510 --> 36:50.040
[ Applause ]
36:50.040 --> 36:53.970
>> Nina Totenberg: Wendy,
what did she leave out?
36:53.970 --> 36:55.270
>> Wendy Williams: Well,
36:55.270 --> 37:00.140
she left out a Ginsburg/Scalia
moment.
37:00.140 --> 37:03.290
To begin with.
37:03.290 --> 37:08.040
Because Justice Scalia found
her opinion fairly outrageous.
37:08.040 --> 37:12.300
And he was very upset
about the whole thing.
37:12.300 --> 37:17.430
And his last sentence of his
opinion said something like,
37:17.430 --> 37:22.320
this -- this -- this is
going to destroy VMI.
37:22.320 --> 37:24.570
He used the word destroy.
37:24.570 --> 37:29.400
And I asked Justice Ginsburg
about that later and she said
37:29.400 --> 37:30.700
to me with perfect
-- this was --
37:30.700 --> 37:33.660
this was not so long after
the opinion, I think.
37:33.660 --> 37:37.760
She said to me with
the utmost confidence,
37:37.760 --> 37:44.680
VMI will be a better
place if there are women.
37:44.680 --> 37:47.410
And it won't be destroyed.
37:47.410 --> 37:51.720
And the wonderful thing about
that was, when we were there
37:51.720 --> 38:00.800
for the 21st anniversary, people
there were so proud and excited
38:00.800 --> 38:03.730
to have you in person come there
38:03.730 --> 38:06.950
after you had transfigured
the place,
38:06.950 --> 38:11.800
that there was an audience
almost as big as this.
38:11.800 --> 38:19.100
And back there, there were
-- what do you call them?
38:19.100 --> 38:20.400
>> Nina Totenberg: Bleachers.
38:20.400 --> 38:21.700
>> Wendy Williams: Bleachers.
38:21.700 --> 38:23.000
Bleachers.
38:23.000 --> 38:25.160
And all the cadets were
there in their uniforms.
38:25.160 --> 38:31.240
And for Ruth Ginsburg, they
all stood up and applauded.
38:31.240 --> 38:35.510
It was just remarkable.
38:35.510 --> 38:42.040
[ Applause ]
38:42.040 --> 38:43.340
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: As it turns out,
38:43.340 --> 38:46.440
Justice Scalia was
the sole descender.
38:46.440 --> 38:47.740
>> Wendy Williams: Yes.
38:47.740 --> 38:49.040
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Of the VMI case.
38:49.040 --> 38:50.500
The then Chief, Chief
Justice Rehnquist,
38:50.500 --> 38:55.310
didn't join my opinion but
he did join the judgment.
38:55.310 --> 38:59.900
Justice Thomas was recused
because his son attended VMI.
38:59.900 --> 39:01.200
>> Wendy Williams: He
couldn't participate.
39:01.200 --> 39:08.830
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
So that left Scalia all alone.
39:08.830 --> 39:11.900
But Justice Scalia knew I
felt deeply about the case
39:11.900 --> 39:13.490
and as he did the other way.
39:13.490 --> 39:18.240
And he came to my chambers
one day, threw down a sheaf
39:18.240 --> 39:23.720
of papers and said, Ruth,
this is the penultimate draft
39:23.720 --> 39:27.210
of my descent in the VMI case.
39:27.210 --> 39:30.000
I'm not ready to
circulate to the court.
39:30.000 --> 39:36.700
But the clock was ticking and he
wanted to give me as much time
39:36.700 --> 39:45.230
as he could to answer his
rather strident descent.
39:45.230 --> 39:46.690
>> Nina Totenberg:
You were going
39:46.690 --> 39:50.090
to the Second Circuit
meeting that week.
39:50.090 --> 39:51.390
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Yes,
39:51.390 --> 39:53.090
I was going to the judicial
conference in Lake George.
39:53.090 --> 39:57.820
I was on the plane,
opened up his descent.
39:57.820 --> 40:00.010
It absolutely ruined my weekend.
40:00.010 --> 40:07.820
But I was certainly glad to
have the extra time to respond.
40:07.820 --> 40:11.610
>> Nina Totenberg: So,
talking about VMI reminds me
40:11.610 --> 40:14.650
that when you get to the
court Justice O'Connor
40:14.650 --> 40:16.990
of course was the
first woman justice.
40:16.990 --> 40:19.290
She's there, she's been
there for quite a while.
40:19.290 --> 40:20.590
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: 12 years.
40:20.590 --> 40:21.890
>> Nina Totenberg: By herself.
40:21.890 --> 40:24.260
And as you would later learn
that's no fun, because you got
40:24.260 --> 40:28.280
to be the only one
for a while too.
40:28.280 --> 40:31.500
You know, she was
a Regan appointee.
40:31.500 --> 40:34.010
She was a girl of the west.
40:34.010 --> 40:37.160
You were a Clinton appointee.
40:37.160 --> 40:41.590
You were from New York City.
40:41.590 --> 40:47.220
And I wondered -- you very
quickly though established a
40:47.220 --> 40:51.810
very special bond.
40:51.810 --> 40:54.980
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
She was as close as I came
40:54.980 --> 40:58.660
to having a big sister.
40:58.660 --> 41:01.090
When I came on board,
she gave me some advice.
41:01.090 --> 41:02.390
Not too much.
41:02.390 --> 41:07.820
She didn't want to douse me with
-- with excessive information.
41:07.820 --> 41:13.140
Just what I needed to know to
navigate those first few weeks.
41:13.140 --> 41:18.740
And then she was an enormous
help in my first cancer bout.
41:18.740 --> 41:22.620
Justice O'Connor had
a mastectomy and was
41:22.620 --> 41:26.160
on the bench nine days
after her surgery.
41:26.160 --> 41:30.560
So, she was going to tell
me how to manage this.
41:30.560 --> 41:34.910
She said, you schedule
chemotherapy for a Friday,
41:34.910 --> 41:38.200
that way you can get over
it during the weekend
41:38.200 --> 41:42.240
and be back in court on Monday.
41:42.240 --> 41:43.730
And she also said,
you're going to get --
41:43.730 --> 41:48.440
in those days there were not
yet emails, but you're going
41:48.440 --> 41:53.160
to get calls, you're going
to get letters from all over.
41:53.160 --> 41:55.660
Don't even try to respond.
41:55.660 --> 42:01.780
Just concentrate on getting
the course work done.
42:01.780 --> 42:04.280
>> Nina Totenberg: I'm not
telling any secrets here
42:04.280 --> 42:09.040
when I say that in -- in many
of the court's biggest cases
42:09.040 --> 42:12.340
of late, you are -- not all --
42:12.340 --> 42:16.250
but you are in the minority
on the descending side.
42:16.250 --> 42:22.270
But you know, in the last five
years or more, you have pulled
42:22.270 --> 42:24.860
out some unexpected victories.
42:24.860 --> 42:26.390
And I'm thinking for instance
42:26.390 --> 42:30.530
of the courts 2015
decision upholding Arizona's
42:30.530 --> 42:32.490
redistricting commissions.
42:32.490 --> 42:37.720
These were created by state
referendum by the voters
42:37.720 --> 42:39.810
to limit partisanship
in the drawing
42:39.810 --> 42:43.510
of legislative districts
in the state.
42:43.510 --> 42:49.410
And, will you tell the
audience what your opinion said?
42:49.410 --> 42:51.320
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: The opinion said?
42:51.320 --> 42:52.620
>> Nina Totenberg:
The opinion said.
42:52.620 --> 42:53.920
You upheld them.
42:53.920 --> 42:55.220
Why?
42:55.220 --> 42:57.330
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
Because something needs
42:57.330 --> 43:02.510
to be done about the
partisan jerrymander --
43:02.510 --> 43:09.090
[ Applause ]
43:09.090 --> 43:12.840
I think it -- California was
in the lead, then Arizona.
43:12.840 --> 43:18.080
The good voters of Arizona were
tired of drawing district lines
43:18.080 --> 43:22.070
when there was very
little incentive to vote
43:22.070 --> 43:23.870
because your district
had been rigged.
43:23.870 --> 43:28.740
It was going to be a Republican
seat or a Democratic seat.
43:28.740 --> 43:31.330
So, the vote didn't count.
43:31.330 --> 43:35.510
That's not the way a
democracy should run.
43:35.510 --> 43:38.590
[ Applause ]
43:38.590 --> 43:40.220
So, Arizona and California
had the idea --
43:40.220 --> 43:43.520
and this was not done by
the state legislatures.
43:43.520 --> 43:46.160
State legislatures were
not willing to give
43:46.160 --> 43:50.600
up the monopoly they
had on redistricting.
43:50.600 --> 43:54.980
So, the good people of the state
said, this should be done --
43:54.980 --> 44:01.150
the redistricting should be done
by an independent commission.
44:01.150 --> 44:05.130
Not by partisan members
of the legislature.
44:05.130 --> 44:09.170
It presented a constitutional
question,
44:09.170 --> 44:13.060
because the constitution says
redistricting will be done
44:13.060 --> 44:16.240
by the legislature thereof.
44:16.240 --> 44:20.600
So, some of my colleagues said
legislature means legislature.
44:20.600 --> 44:24.230
It doesn't mean the people.
44:24.230 --> 44:26.550
To me it seemed quite clear
44:26.550 --> 44:30.750
that the state had made
the people the legislature
44:30.750 --> 44:32.460
for this purpose.
44:32.460 --> 44:35.790
States that have
referendum do that.
44:35.790 --> 44:42.680
They give the decision voice to
the people, to we the people.
44:42.680 --> 44:46.440
And not the partisan
members of the legislature.
44:46.440 --> 44:52.170
But I think after that case
other states were encouraged,
44:52.170 --> 44:55.910
other states that
had referendum.
44:55.910 --> 44:57.590
>> Nina Totenberg: So, the
descent in that case was written
44:57.590 --> 45:02.100
by Chief Justice Roberts and
he argued very vigorously
45:02.100 --> 45:05.250
that the legislature means
only the legislature.
45:05.250 --> 45:08.390
Now, fast forward to this year,
45:08.390 --> 45:13.060
a five to four conservative
majority ruled essentially
45:13.060 --> 45:14.730
that the voters have no ability
45:14.730 --> 45:19.030
to challenge extreme partisan
jerrymanders in court.
45:19.030 --> 45:22.340
But at the same time,
the opinion written --
45:22.340 --> 45:25.570
this time the majority opinion
written by the Chief Justice,
45:25.570 --> 45:28.340
seemed to suggest
that other remedies
45:28.340 --> 45:32.750
like independent redistricting
commissions provide alternative
45:32.750 --> 45:36.940
ways to address the problem of
partisanship in redistricting.
45:36.940 --> 45:42.700
So, could you please
explain what's going on here?
45:42.700 --> 45:45.280
Have the courts conservatives
changed their minds
45:45.280 --> 45:47.030
about redistricting?
45:47.030 --> 45:51.010
Is this just window
dressing or what?
45:51.010 --> 45:53.830
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
As one lives, one learns.
45:53.830 --> 45:58.510
So, I think the Chief learned
that he was wrong in the --
45:58.510 --> 46:07.650
[ Applause ]
46:07.650 --> 46:12.010
>> Nina Totenberg: So, I want
you to look at this crowd.
46:12.010 --> 46:15.370
They tell me this
is 4,000 people.
46:15.370 --> 46:18.140
I'm not quite sure.
46:18.140 --> 46:22.470
Next week you and I are
going to another interview
46:22.470 --> 46:25.120
in Little Rock, Arkansas.
46:25.120 --> 46:31.710
In a venue that holds
18,000 people.
46:31.710 --> 46:34.870
And not only are all
the tickets gone,
46:34.870 --> 46:41.510
there's a waiting
list of 16,000 people.
46:41.510 --> 46:48.100
[ Applause ]
46:48.100 --> 46:56.110
So, so my dear Notorious RBG
[laughter], how does it feel
46:56.110 --> 47:03.510
to be a cultural and
pop icon in your 80s?
47:03.510 --> 47:14.420
[ Cheering and Applause ]
47:14.420 --> 47:16.210
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: It's amazing.
47:16.210 --> 47:21.230
At the advanced age
of 86 everyone wants
47:21.230 --> 47:26.290
to take a picture with me.
47:26.290 --> 47:30.270
The Notorious RBG was started
by a second year student
47:30.270 --> 47:34.250
at New York University
Law School.
47:34.250 --> 47:40.020
She was dismayed about a
decision the court had recently
47:40.020 --> 47:45.170
rendered in the Shelby
County case.
47:45.170 --> 47:48.120
That held the key provision
of the Voting Rights Act
47:48.120 --> 47:51.370
of 1965 unconstitutional.
47:51.370 --> 47:58.610
Then she thought to herself,
I'm angry about that.
47:58.610 --> 48:03.670
But anger will not
get me any place.
48:03.670 --> 48:06.290
So, I'm going to do
something positive.
48:06.290 --> 48:11.030
The positive thing that she did
was she put on the internet --
48:11.030 --> 48:17.900
Tumblr -- the announcement
I made from the bench
48:17.900 --> 48:22.750
of my descending opinion
in the Shelby County case.
48:22.750 --> 48:28.410
And she called it the
Notorious RBG because she had
48:28.410 --> 48:32.080
in mind a well-known
rapper, the Notorious BIG.
48:32.080 --> 48:39.480
And people ask me, what is the
world do you have in common
48:39.480 --> 48:40.950
with the Notorious BIG?
48:40.950 --> 48:50.710
I said, it's evident.
48:50.710 --> 48:55.510
We were both born and bred
in Brooklyn, New York.
48:55.510 --> 49:05.310
[ Cheering and Applause ]
49:05.310 --> 49:06.610
>> Nina Totenberg:
By the way, when you
49:06.610 --> 49:11.380
and Justice O'Connor were on
the court, even at the end
49:11.380 --> 49:17.860
of her tenure some very seasoned
Supreme Court advocates,
49:17.860 --> 49:22.370
not newbies, really seasoned
people kept confusing you.
49:22.370 --> 49:24.370
And they would call
you Justice O'Connor
49:24.370 --> 49:27.100
and her Justice Ginsburg,
and excuse me,
49:27.100 --> 49:29.650
you don't look anything alike.
49:29.650 --> 49:31.780
She had at least
six inches on you.
49:31.780 --> 49:35.430
Her hairstyle was different.
49:35.430 --> 49:39.130
Her accent was diff --
everything was different.
49:39.130 --> 49:40.430
Why?
49:40.430 --> 49:44.430
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Well, for 12 years,
49:44.430 --> 49:49.630
Sandra Day O'Connor was the
lone woman on the Supreme Court.
49:49.630 --> 49:51.720
And advocates were accustomed
49:51.720 --> 49:54.630
to there being a
woman on the court.
49:54.630 --> 49:57.200
Her name was Sandra
Day O'Connor.
49:57.200 --> 50:03.550
So, they heard a woman's voice,
it had to be Justice O'Connor.
50:03.550 --> 50:09.350
She would sometimes say,
I'm Justice O'Connor.
50:09.350 --> 50:11.240
She's Justice Ginsburg.
50:11.240 --> 50:16.260
That happened not to
just occasional lawyers
50:16.260 --> 50:20.220
who showed up, but even
the Solicitor General.
50:20.220 --> 50:25.160
He was mortified as soon as
he called me Justice O'Connor.
50:25.160 --> 50:28.040
He realized the mistake
that he had made.
50:28.040 --> 50:31.270
>> Nina Totenberg:
He said he wanted --
50:31.270 --> 50:38.640
wished that there was a
trap door under his feet.
50:38.640 --> 50:40.980
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: But nowadays,
50:40.980 --> 50:44.510
we are 1/3 of the bench.
50:44.510 --> 50:51.420
[ Applause ]
50:51.420 --> 50:53.080
And we're all over the bench
50:53.080 --> 50:56.540
because of my seniority
I sit next to the Chief
50:56.540 --> 50:58.240
with Justice Sotomayor
on one side
50:58.240 --> 51:00.990
and Justice Kagan on the other.
51:00.990 --> 51:06.460
People who have attended
argument at the court know
51:06.460 --> 51:12.730
that my -- my two sisters in
law are not shrinking violets.
51:12.730 --> 51:17.460
They're very active in
the hulabo that goes on.
51:17.460 --> 51:20.770
In fact, I think for some
years there was a rivalry
51:20.770 --> 51:23.900
between Justice Scalia
and Justice Sotomayor,
51:23.900 --> 51:27.340
who could ask the
most questions.
51:27.340 --> 51:28.900
>> Wendy Williams:
And sometimes she won.
51:28.900 --> 51:32.020
>> Nina Totenberg: So, it
seems to me appropriate,
51:32.020 --> 51:36.310
since we began this interview
talking about Justice Scalia,
51:36.310 --> 51:39.920
we should end it
in some ways there.
51:39.920 --> 51:43.220
Because the two of you were
such pals for so many decades
51:43.220 --> 51:47.670
and such unlikely -- it was
such an unlikely friendship,
51:47.670 --> 51:49.390
to people from the outside.
51:49.390 --> 51:54.130
Why were you -- what did
you love about him so much?
51:54.130 --> 51:57.320
>> Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
He was a very funny man.
51:57.320 --> 52:00.990
We had been buddies
on the DC Circuit
52:00.990 --> 52:03.920
for some years before he was
appointed to the Supreme Court.
52:03.920 --> 52:07.080
And that was a three
judge bench.
52:07.080 --> 52:12.090
Sometimes he would whisper
something to me that was
52:12.090 --> 52:17.210
so funny I had everything I
could do to contain myself
52:17.210 --> 52:20.750
from bursting out into
hysterical laughter.
52:20.750 --> 52:24.260
And the Supreme Court, when we
didn't sit next to each other,
52:24.260 --> 52:27.280
he would sometimes
send me notes.
52:27.280 --> 52:33.440
I can't repeat to this
audience what some of them were.
52:33.440 --> 52:40.300
And there's -- there's a comic
opera called Scalia/Ginsburg
52:40.300 --> 52:44.120
that characterizes
the two of us.
52:44.120 --> 52:48.150
The different way we
approach reading legal text.
52:48.150 --> 52:51.750
But our reverence for the
court as an institution
52:51.750 --> 52:55.360
and for our constitution.
52:55.360 --> 52:59.420
So [inaudible] was
just a small sample
52:59.420 --> 53:03.110
of this very amusing opera.
53:03.110 --> 53:08.060
Scalia's opening
aria is a rage aria.
53:08.060 --> 53:10.570
It's very Handlin in style.
53:10.570 --> 53:13.070
And it goes like this.
53:13.070 --> 53:16.220
The justices are blind.
53:16.220 --> 53:19.940
How can they possibly
spout this?
53:19.940 --> 53:27.560
The Constitution said
absolutely nothing about this.
53:27.560 --> 53:30.290
And then I answer him.
53:30.290 --> 53:32.350
Dear Justice Scalia,
you are searching
53:32.350 --> 53:35.420
for bright line solutions
to problems
53:35.420 --> 53:38.210
that don't have easy answers.
53:38.210 --> 53:42.900
But, the great thing
about our constitution is
53:42.900 --> 53:51.510
that like our society
it can evolve.
53:51.510 --> 53:55.040
[ Applause ]
53:55.040 --> 53:58.400
So, the plot is roughly
based on The Magic Flute .
53:58.400 --> 54:02.470
Justice Scalia is
locked up in a dark room.
54:02.470 --> 54:09.200
He is being punished for
excessive dissenting.
54:09.200 --> 54:13.510
And I enter the dark room
through a glass ceiling.
54:13.510 --> 54:20.130
[ Cheering and Applause ]
54:20.130 --> 54:24.330
And say I'm there to help him
pass the tests he needs to pass
54:24.330 --> 54:28.450
to get out of the dark room.
54:28.450 --> 54:33.090
And a character called
The Commentatori said,
54:33.090 --> 54:35.290
why would you want to help him?
54:35.290 --> 54:38.110
He's your enemy.
54:38.110 --> 54:42.880
And I explain he's not my enemy.
54:42.880 --> 54:45.210
He's my dear friend.
54:45.210 --> 54:49.690
And then we sing a
wonderful duet [laughter]
54:49.690 --> 54:52.380
that goes like this.
54:52.380 --> 54:56.850
We are different, we are one.
54:56.850 --> 54:59.920
Different in our
approach to legal text,
54:59.920 --> 55:04.780
but one in our reverence
for the institution we serve
55:04.780 --> 55:08.510
and for the United
States Constitution.
55:08.510 --> 55:17.340
[ Applause ]
55:17.340 --> 55:19.150
>> Nina Totenberg:
So, I know this seems
55:19.150 --> 55:20.990
like a very short time.
55:20.990 --> 55:24.750
But we have already exceeded it.
55:24.750 --> 55:32.510
And I thank the Justice, her
biographers, all the people here
55:32.510 --> 55:35.620
who waited so long to come.
55:35.620 --> 55:37.610
This has been a lovely morning.
55:37.610 --> 55:40.510
Thank you, Justice Ginsburg.
55:40.510 --> 55:49.060
[ Cheering and Applause ]
55:49.060 --> 55:50.360
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Thank you.
55:50.360 --> 55:51.930
Thank you very much.
55:51.930 --> 55:53.440
Everyone please,
please be seated.
55:53.440 --> 55:55.240
Thank you.
55:55.240 --> 56:00.040
[ Cheering and Applause ]
56:00.040 --> 56:01.340
Thank you.
56:01.340 --> 56:04.320
I think we should move out.
56:04.320 --> 56:05.620
>> Nina Totenberg: Okay.
56:05.620 --> 56:07.420
Exit stage right.
56:07.420 --> 56:10.180
[ Cheering and Applause ]
56:10.180 --> 56:11.480
>> Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg: Thank you.
56:11.480 --> 56:13.280
Thank you very much.
56:13.280 --> 56:26.810
[ Cheering and Applause ]