WEBVTT 00:00.500 --> 00:38.110 [ Music ] 00:38.110 --> 00:43.060 >> Okay. I'm Maureen Corrigan and I have the pleasure today 00:43.060 --> 00:47.120 of talking with Walter Mosley for the National Book Festival. 00:47.120 --> 00:50.950 The theme this year is American ingenuity, 00:50.950 --> 00:53.220 and really I can't think of a better person 00:53.220 --> 00:55.310 to represent American ingenuity. 00:55.310 --> 00:59.560 Walter Mosley has written over 50 books, and we want to talk 00:59.560 --> 01:01.490 about a bunch of them today. 01:01.490 --> 01:05.890 So Walter, you and I both have the distinction 01:05.890 --> 01:07.380 of having been present 01:07.380 --> 01:11.660 at the very first National Book Festival, and it's just possible 01:11.660 --> 01:13.680 that I may have interviewed you there. 01:13.680 --> 01:15.490 I know I had the pleasure 01:15.490 --> 01:18.920 of interviewing you years ago either at the festival 01:18.920 --> 01:24.570 or at the old Chapters bookstore in D.C, but we've talked before 01:24.570 --> 01:28.390 and it's really lovely to be able to talk to you again. 01:28.390 --> 01:33.660 I want to start by asking about your life right now. 01:33.660 --> 01:37.880 I know that you're a big proponent of writing every day, 01:37.880 --> 01:42.060 of writing for three hours in the morning every day. 01:42.060 --> 01:44.710 Are you still able to do that with a pandemic or are you 01:44.710 --> 01:47.570 like a lot of people I know, myself included, 01:47.570 --> 01:51.340 feeling like we're kind of a little foggy these days 01:51.340 --> 01:56.500 and we're not able to really stick to our routines? 01:56.500 --> 02:00.120 >> I write every day, and I have been. 02:00.120 --> 02:03.010 I can -- And since the pandemic there's been one day, 02:03.010 --> 02:04.920 and that was a few days ago, that I didn't write. 02:04.920 --> 02:06.220 And I'm not even sure why. 02:06.220 --> 02:10.300 But I try to write every day three hours a day. 02:10.300 --> 02:14.770 I can be foggy the other 21, and I am, and I have been. 02:14.770 --> 02:16.070 Been a while. 02:16.070 --> 02:17.700 For instance, start exercising again and, you know, 02:17.700 --> 02:20.860 eating the way I should be, and all that stuff. 02:20.860 --> 02:22.600 But the writing I've been able to do. 02:22.600 --> 02:24.640 You know, it's -- I've been doing it for, you know, 02:24.640 --> 02:28.830 way over 30 years now. 02:28.830 --> 02:30.130 So. 02:30.130 --> 02:31.430 >> You live in New York. 02:31.430 --> 02:33.070 I don't know if you're there now or not, 02:33.070 --> 02:36.530 but New York is my hometown too. 02:36.530 --> 02:37.830 Yeah. 02:37.830 --> 02:41.060 >> I'm in L.A, and I'm here. 02:41.060 --> 02:42.850 I came. I was in a writer's room 02:42.850 --> 02:44.640 for this television show called "Snowfall." 02:44.640 --> 02:52.210 And but toward the end of the writer's room -- Not at the end. 02:52.210 --> 02:53.910 The pandemic, you know, started, and you know -- 02:53.910 --> 02:56.190 And sheltering in place became, you know, the thing. 02:56.190 --> 03:00.480 And New York was doing so bad right then that I just decided, 03:00.480 --> 03:01.780 well, I'll stay out here, you know. 03:01.780 --> 03:03.240 There's a lot of work to do out here and, 03:03.240 --> 03:04.540 you know, people to talk to. 03:04.540 --> 03:07.230 And every once in a while to see. 03:07.230 --> 03:11.670 So I'm in Los Angeles in Santa Monica. 03:11.670 --> 03:15.250 >> Which [inaudible] isn't doing so well now either. 03:15.250 --> 03:16.550 Yeah. 03:16.550 --> 03:17.850 >> Say what? 03:17.850 --> 03:20.860 >> I said unfortunately L.A isn't doing so well now either. 03:20.860 --> 03:22.460 Are you mostly staying inside? 03:22.460 --> 03:24.740 >> It's getting a rise and stuff. 03:24.740 --> 03:27.150 I don't think it's as -- 03:27.150 --> 03:31.630 quite as overwhelming as New York was at its worst. 03:31.630 --> 03:34.400 But, you know -- And also L.A, there's so much space in L.A, 03:34.400 --> 03:36.000 it's really hard to tell if anything's happened. 03:36.000 --> 03:37.900 You know, it's like -- It's not like you're going 03:37.900 --> 03:41.070 to hear sirens going up and down the street through Brooklyn 03:41.070 --> 03:43.150 or Queens or whatever. 03:43.150 --> 03:44.450 >> Right. Right. 03:44.450 --> 03:47.970 >> But, you know. 03:47.970 --> 03:52.330 >> It's such a strange time I think for a lot of us 03:52.330 --> 03:54.670 who read and write a lot. 03:54.670 --> 03:58.850 It's not that much of a disruption in our normal day, 03:58.850 --> 04:04.450 but it's more of -- throughout the atmosphere. 04:04.450 --> 04:06.680 >> Yeah. There's a -- you know, like a world spirit going 04:06.680 --> 04:11.540 on which is not necessarily in good shape. 04:11.540 --> 04:12.840 >> Yeah. Yeah. 04:12.840 --> 04:14.140 >> But, you know, the writing is -- 04:14.140 --> 04:15.440 You know, for me the writing is the writing. 04:15.440 --> 04:18.250 And, you know, like I have some friends who are like painters 04:18.250 --> 04:21.150 and musicians who are really doing a lot of work, you know. 04:21.150 --> 04:25.570 In a way just to be able to be at home, and to -- 04:25.570 --> 04:27.830 you know, to write or to paint or to, you know, 04:27.830 --> 04:29.910 play has been really good for them. 04:29.910 --> 04:34.510 You know? It's a moment of like, you know, self discovery. 04:34.510 --> 04:36.560 Of potential self discovery. 04:36.560 --> 04:37.920 You know, I mean there's all these terrible things 04:37.920 --> 04:43.160 about it certainly, but you know actually I don't even think you 04:43.160 --> 04:45.730 can avoid self discovery in this. 04:45.730 --> 04:55.410 >> You do have to sit with yourself a lot these days. 04:55.410 --> 04:57.440 >> Yeah. And, you know [inaudible]. 04:57.440 --> 05:00.190 >> Yeah. In preparation for talking with you again 05:00.190 --> 05:04.200 after 20 years, I went back and looked at a lot 05:04.200 --> 05:07.730 of what I have read, and a lot of what I haven't read 05:07.730 --> 05:12.610 of what you've written, and I mean your range is incredible. 05:12.610 --> 05:16.080 Of course the detective novels. 05:16.080 --> 05:18.500 Political memoir. 05:18.500 --> 05:20.690 Kind of writing meditation. 05:20.690 --> 05:23.320 Books on writing. 05:23.320 --> 05:25.440 Afro futurist novels. 05:25.440 --> 05:30.630 Erotica. You just, you know, you really do contain multitudes. 05:30.630 --> 05:34.940 When I say, though, to people, the name Walter Mosley, 05:34.940 --> 05:37.470 and when I've told a few people, "Oh, I'm going to be talking 05:37.470 --> 05:40.310 to Walter Mosley," immediately the name that comes 05:40.310 --> 05:43.590 up is Easy Rawlins and the Easy Rawlins mysteries. 05:43.590 --> 05:47.370 So I want to talk a little bit about Easy Rawlins. 05:47.370 --> 05:51.840 You began that series in 1990. 05:51.840 --> 05:55.230 You've written, what, 14 Easy Rawlins books, and -- 05:55.230 --> 05:56.850 >> Yeah. I think it's 14. 05:56.850 --> 05:58.750 I mean and then there's another coming out. 05:58.750 --> 06:02.060 [Inaudible] that's coming out in January or something. 06:02.060 --> 06:03.360 >> Oh. Great. 06:03.360 --> 06:06.200 Great. And so you started that series. 06:06.200 --> 06:11.130 Easy is in post World War II L.A. And then you brought it 06:11.130 --> 06:14.550 up to 1968 with the last novel. 06:14.550 --> 06:22.480 What attracted you way back when to the detective fiction form? 06:22.480 --> 06:26.710 >> Well, you know, it's an interesting thing 06:26.710 --> 06:28.780 about writing and being a writer. 06:28.780 --> 06:32.330 What I had done is I'd written a book called "Gone Fishing." 06:32.330 --> 06:37.040 "Gone Fishing" is about -- It occurs in 1939. 06:37.040 --> 06:42.250 It's a young, you know, late teen Easy Rawlins. 06:42.250 --> 06:46.950 Young late teen Raymond Mouse Alexander. 06:46.950 --> 06:50.880 And they go on an adventure to this kind 06:50.880 --> 06:53.390 of mythical swamp town called Pariah which is 06:53.390 --> 06:55.230 between Texas and Louisiana. 06:55.230 --> 07:01.490 And they go to get this dowry for the wedding 07:01.490 --> 07:04.840 that Mouse is going to have. 07:04.840 --> 07:06.270 And, you know, it's a book 07:06.270 --> 07:10.410 about two young black men coming of age. 07:10.410 --> 07:13.400 One, you know, who's kind of a romantic, and the other who's, 07:13.400 --> 07:15.440 you know, a psychopath. 07:15.440 --> 07:19.680 And they're trying to find themselves. 07:19.680 --> 07:22.220 What happens, you know, is that -- 07:22.220 --> 07:24.070 Well, what did happen -- I wrote the book. 07:24.070 --> 07:25.370 I was very happy with the book. 07:25.370 --> 07:28.630 And I went to a lot of publishers through my agent. 07:28.630 --> 07:33.160 Oh, no. Actually I went to a lot of agents, and they went 07:33.160 --> 07:35.480 to publishers, and everybody said, "Well, 07:35.480 --> 07:36.780 this is a really good book. 07:36.780 --> 07:38.380 It's really well written. 07:38.380 --> 07:40.230 We really like what it says. 07:40.230 --> 07:43.760 But it's about two young black men." 07:43.760 --> 07:46.870 There are no white people except one crazy white lady 07:46.870 --> 07:49.310 in the book, and the black women that are there, 07:49.310 --> 07:51.070 they're not simple characters. 07:51.070 --> 07:52.370 And there's a simple truth. 07:52.370 --> 07:56.420 At that time anyway I think '88 maybe, almost '89, 07:56.420 --> 07:59.610 white people don't read about black people. 07:59.610 --> 08:01.040 Black women don't like black men. 08:01.040 --> 08:02.580 And black men don't read. 08:02.580 --> 08:06.190 So who we going to sell this book to? 08:06.190 --> 08:08.640 And that was what they thought. 08:08.640 --> 08:10.210 And, you know, if you think something, 08:10.210 --> 08:11.810 and you're in charge, then it's true. 08:11.810 --> 08:16.380 So then I just started writing again, and I wrote -- 08:16.380 --> 08:18.170 I was writing about Easy and Mouse much later 08:18.170 --> 08:19.470 after the -- World War II. 08:19.470 --> 08:21.600 It's in Los Angeles. 08:21.600 --> 08:23.850 And when I got about halfway through it, 08:23.850 --> 08:25.820 I realized that it was a mystery. 08:25.820 --> 08:27.900 I didn't actually know that before. 08:27.900 --> 08:32.200 I was just talking about, you know, writing experiences. 08:32.200 --> 08:35.560 And that's how I ended up writing mysteries. 08:35.560 --> 08:38.290 At least some of the time. 08:38.290 --> 08:42.020 >> Well, it's interesting what you say because, you know, 08:42.020 --> 08:45.060 I've heard Sarah Paretsky talk 08:45.060 --> 08:48.320 about writing the first VI Warshawski mystery, 08:48.320 --> 08:52.460 and part of the impetus for writing the book for her was 08:52.460 --> 08:55.980 that she wanted to break in to the forum and claim it 08:55.980 --> 08:59.280 as a feminist form, and sort of kind of get her revenge 08:59.280 --> 09:03.370 on Sam Spade and all these straight white guys who'd been 09:03.370 --> 09:05.000 dominating the form. 09:05.000 --> 09:09.440 So you realized Easy's story was a mystery, 09:09.440 --> 09:12.940 but the form itself historically, you know -- 09:12.940 --> 09:15.560 Chester Himes, Rudolph Fisher, but it -- 09:15.560 --> 09:18.210 Historically it hadn't been a form 09:18.210 --> 09:23.040 that was particularly welcoming to people of color. 09:23.040 --> 09:24.340 To really anyone again 09:24.340 --> 09:29.380 who wasn't a white straight guy protagonist. 09:29.380 --> 09:35.680 So was there any sense of, "I'm going to claim this form 09:35.680 --> 09:38.570 for an African American detective?" 09:38.570 --> 09:42.850 Was a political [inaudible] in your mind? 09:42.850 --> 09:44.390 >> Well, you know, I mean it is political. 09:44.390 --> 09:48.080 I'm kind of hesitant to say, you know, that -- 09:48.080 --> 09:50.640 You know, to kind of frame myself as, you know, 09:50.640 --> 09:53.640 this political activist. 09:53.640 --> 09:57.790 I was -- I wanted us to be part of history. 09:57.790 --> 10:02.430 I wanted black people migrating from the deep south to be part 10:02.430 --> 10:04.070 of the history of where they were. 10:04.070 --> 10:05.840 And I was in Los Angeles then. 10:05.840 --> 10:07.140 Or at least in my mind. 10:07.140 --> 10:13.030 So I wanted to tell that story because I wanted us to be 10:13.030 --> 10:14.600 in history because the only way we can be 10:14.600 --> 10:15.900 in history is through fiction. 10:15.900 --> 10:19.320 Nobody reads books about history. 10:19.320 --> 10:21.360 Not very many people do. 10:21.360 --> 10:24.500 And so my intention was to write 10:24.500 --> 10:26.710 about these people, especially these men. 10:26.710 --> 10:28.600 Black male heroes. 10:28.600 --> 10:35.810 Now the thing is that that's political. 10:35.810 --> 10:38.050 If you look at it from the outside, 10:38.050 --> 10:39.350 that's a political move. 10:39.350 --> 10:40.650 But I wasn't thinking of it like that. 10:40.650 --> 10:43.550 I just said, "Well, I want these people who I love, who -- 10:43.550 --> 10:46.650 " You know, who I was raised with who were so important, 10:46.650 --> 10:48.820 "to be part of the history of the rest of, 10:48.820 --> 10:50.120 you know, where I live." 10:50.120 --> 10:55.140 And, you know, so it's kind -- It wasn't a political decision. 10:55.140 --> 10:57.660 It was a literary decision. 10:57.660 --> 11:00.590 But there was a subject, and that subject -- 11:00.590 --> 11:02.730 I mean really honestly it's impossible to write a novel 11:02.730 --> 11:05.650 that doesn't -- you know, a good novel that doesn't have politics 11:05.650 --> 11:06.950 in it one way or the other. 11:06.950 --> 11:09.460 But that doesn't mean that, you know, 11:09.460 --> 11:12.950 I'm writing particularly that. 11:12.950 --> 11:15.570 You know? Like I don't think that Langston Hughes was doing 11:15.570 --> 11:18.700 that either, but that's what happened in the end. 11:18.700 --> 11:21.760 You know. He writes enough books about people 11:21.760 --> 11:24.420 who are having certain kinds of experiences, and it becomes, 11:24.420 --> 11:27.350 you know, a political touchstone. 11:27.350 --> 11:32.350 >> It seems to me we're living through another period 11:32.350 --> 11:36.780 with detective fiction where the form is opening up again. 11:36.780 --> 11:38.080 I don't know. 11:38.080 --> 11:43.790 Like when you began in 1990 there were a lot 11:43.790 --> 11:47.100 of writers who've since fallen by the wayside. 11:47.100 --> 11:50.840 Some of them are still with us. 11:50.840 --> 11:54.930 Claiming detective fiction for gay and lesbian voices, 11:54.930 --> 12:00.750 for you know, African American, Asian, Hispanic. 12:00.750 --> 12:03.980 And then it seemed to close down again. 12:03.980 --> 12:06.200 You know, and I'm just I'm speaking as a critic 12:06.200 --> 12:08.560 and as a great lover of the form. 12:08.560 --> 12:11.810 It seemed like -- And I love Michael Connelly, but it seemed 12:11.810 --> 12:15.570 like that kind of familiar figure 12:15.570 --> 12:19.020 of the white guy detective came to the fore again. 12:19.020 --> 12:23.620 And now we've got -- You know, now we've got again 12:23.620 --> 12:29.230 like Joe Ide, S.A Cosby whose novel "Blacktop Wasteland" I saw 12:29.230 --> 12:31.820 that you blurbed, and I just reviewed, and I loved. 12:31.820 --> 12:34.170 Steph Cha. 12:34.170 --> 12:38.270 It seems like the form -- Attica Locke is -- 12:38.270 --> 12:44.840 the last few years has become reenergized with writers 12:44.840 --> 12:48.510 and characters who don't fit, you know, the standard profile 12:48.510 --> 12:50.880 of what we expect -- what we've come 12:50.880 --> 12:53.520 to expect the classic detective to be. 12:53.520 --> 12:55.580 I don't know if you have any -- 12:55.580 --> 12:59.170 if you share that sense with me or not. 12:59.170 --> 13:01.830 And if you have any theories about maybe why that is. 13:01.830 --> 13:07.060 >> You know, it's so hard to say because, you know, 13:07.060 --> 13:09.250 Steph and Shaun [assumed spelling] and you know, 13:09.250 --> 13:11.010 and a lot of people, they've been doing a lot 13:11.010 --> 13:12.310 of work for a long time. 13:12.310 --> 13:13.610 And there are quite a few people I think 13:13.610 --> 13:16.800 that have been getting published. 13:16.800 --> 13:19.250 You know, you do have the problem in publishing 13:19.250 --> 13:23.410 where if somebody doesn't think that people are going to sell 13:23.410 --> 13:25.560 like Michael Connelly, 13:25.560 --> 13:28.690 then they're not going to really back it. 13:28.690 --> 13:32.560 A little bit more than a year 13:32.560 --> 13:37.800 and a half ago another prime genre writer, Kelly Garrett, 13:37.800 --> 13:42.140 and I started an organization called Crime Writers of Color. 13:42.140 --> 13:48.600 And, you know, there's like over 200 members. 13:48.600 --> 13:51.460 You know? Of all colors. 13:51.460 --> 13:54.320 And many of them have been writing for quite a while. 13:54.320 --> 13:56.850 Some of them have, you know, just started. 13:56.850 --> 14:02.100 I think that, you know, you need to -- that push to get in to it. 14:02.100 --> 14:04.750 You know, and you need that excitement among the publishers. 14:04.750 --> 14:08.840 You know like -- What you have right now actually, you know. 14:08.840 --> 14:10.930 People are very interested in books 14:10.930 --> 14:15.670 about black people in America right now. 14:15.670 --> 14:20.430 So I'm not sure that it stopped and started again. 14:20.430 --> 14:22.320 I agree with you that there was a lull, that -- 14:22.320 --> 14:23.970 Those people were still working. 14:23.970 --> 14:25.270 They were still thinking. 14:25.270 --> 14:26.570 They were still open. 14:26.570 --> 14:27.870 They were still, you know, reading my books. 14:27.870 --> 14:29.340 You know, reading Gary Phillips. 14:29.340 --> 14:33.150 You know, reading Attica. 14:33.150 --> 14:35.790 And that was, you know, very -- I think it's -- 14:35.790 --> 14:40.150 It made people say, "Well, this can be done." 14:40.150 --> 14:42.860 Though it took a while to kind of get there again. 14:42.860 --> 14:47.300 I don't understand the dip, but it was a dip 14:47.300 --> 14:49.250 in publishing, not in writers. 14:49.250 --> 14:50.550 You know what I mean? 14:50.550 --> 14:51.980 There were the writers, and they were working the whole time. 14:51.980 --> 14:53.400 You know. 14:53.400 --> 14:54.740 >> Yeah. Maybe a dip -- 14:54.740 --> 14:56.830 I thought maybe a dip in independent 14:56.830 --> 14:58.580 or those specialty bookstores. 14:58.580 --> 15:03.000 I know in D.C where I live we used to have two bookstores 15:03.000 --> 15:04.840 that just specialized in mystery 15:04.840 --> 15:06.710 and detective fiction, and they closed. 15:06.710 --> 15:10.960 So it -- Maybe there wasn't that support on the ground 15:10.960 --> 15:13.210 for people just starting out. 15:13.210 --> 15:14.730 >> It's interesting, you know. 15:14.730 --> 15:16.730 I mean because that can go one of two ways. 15:16.730 --> 15:18.700 You know, you can be -- 15:18.700 --> 15:23.320 You could be like that kind of mystery publisher who, you know, 15:23.320 --> 15:27.030 just loves, you know, Ed McBain, and you know listen, 15:27.030 --> 15:30.560 I like [inaudible] too, but you know, Jill [inaudible] that kind 15:30.560 --> 15:33.230 of writing, not another kind of writing. 15:33.230 --> 15:35.030 And, you know, some are very open, 15:35.030 --> 15:36.330 really want to open things. 15:36.330 --> 15:39.990 The younger people are, the more likely they are to want 15:39.990 --> 15:43.330 to see parts of the world that they've been made aware 15:43.330 --> 15:47.130 of that maybe the previous generations weren't aware 15:47.130 --> 15:48.430 of actually. 15:48.430 --> 15:50.160 Just didn't really know what was going on. 15:50.160 --> 15:51.590 They said, "Well, I know there's some black people. 15:51.590 --> 15:53.650 I don't know what they do. 15:53.650 --> 15:54.950 They're over there, and I'm here." 15:54.950 --> 15:56.390 You know. 15:56.390 --> 16:00.510 >> Yeah. I was -- I was looking at a book 16:00.510 --> 16:03.380 that you've published last year, elements of fiction, 16:03.380 --> 16:07.350 which is kind of -- I don't want to say it's a writing guide. 16:07.350 --> 16:09.510 It's a lot of things. 16:09.510 --> 16:16.970 It's kind of memoirish, but it also is reflective in terms 16:16.970 --> 16:18.270 of the craft of fiction. 16:18.270 --> 16:22.810 And I thought the first sentence of "Elements of Fiction" was 16:22.810 --> 16:26.870 so interesting because you say, "This monograph is concerned 16:26.870 --> 16:31.290 with the hope of writing a novel that transcends story 16:31.290 --> 16:34.930 in such a way as to allow the writer to plumb the depths 16:34.930 --> 16:39.150 of meaning while at the same time telling a good yarn." 16:39.150 --> 16:42.380 And I thought that's pretty -- 16:42.380 --> 16:45.240 In one sense, that pretty much speaks 16:45.240 --> 16:48.680 to the power of detective fiction. 16:48.680 --> 16:53.520 I mean you really can plumb the depths and tell a good yarn. 16:53.520 --> 16:58.940 Which is maybe to go back to why you could tell the story 16:58.940 --> 17:02.750 of Easy Rawlins as a mystery, but maybe it didn't seem 17:02.750 --> 17:07.780 so appealing to the publishing industry before it was presented 17:07.780 --> 17:09.080 as a mystery. 17:09.080 --> 17:13.970 You know, mysteries have that [inaudible]. 17:13.970 --> 17:16.880 >> One of the great things about the genre is 17:16.880 --> 17:22.760 that people read mystery and crime fiction because they want 17:22.760 --> 17:25.280 to figure out what happened. 17:25.280 --> 17:28.630 Like either in their life, you know, on the streets, at work, 17:28.630 --> 17:31.610 or you know, the story that you're presenting. 17:31.610 --> 17:36.140 And so if you're like, you know, a detective Chicano 17:36.140 --> 17:40.750 or a dwarf or, you know, somebody from, you know, 17:40.750 --> 17:43.990 your mother's home country [inaudible] or something, 17:43.990 --> 17:48.880 you know, people will read it, and they'll learn all this stuff 17:48.880 --> 17:52.200 from it because they want -- 17:52.200 --> 17:54.140 They're learning everything because they want 17:54.140 --> 17:56.470 to figure out the mystery. 17:56.470 --> 17:58.970 And so it -- As a political like kind 17:58.970 --> 18:02.590 of vehicle it's really great to reach a lot 18:02.590 --> 18:06.360 of people outside of your community. 18:06.360 --> 18:07.660 >> Yeah. Yeah. 18:07.660 --> 18:09.320 We've got another sentence. 18:09.320 --> 18:10.810 You've got many sentences in this book 18:10.810 --> 18:16.810 that I was underlining, but I like the way you talk about plot 18:16.810 --> 18:21.670 as the structure of revelation which is again kind of something 18:21.670 --> 18:24.280 that speaks to the mystery form. 18:24.280 --> 18:28.950 Although the plot heavy identity of the mystery, I think, 18:28.950 --> 18:32.370 has worked against it in terms of literary value. 18:32.370 --> 18:36.520 Like in the academy where I live part 18:36.520 --> 18:38.720 of the time there's still this prejudice 18:38.720 --> 18:40.630 against mystery fiction. 18:40.630 --> 18:43.560 I teach a course in mystery fiction, 18:43.560 --> 18:48.800 and it's considered the fun course in the department. 18:48.800 --> 18:50.100 Yeah. 18:50.100 --> 18:51.400 >> Well, you know, and as a -- 18:51.400 --> 18:55.990 you know, fun can give you knowledge. 18:55.990 --> 18:57.520 You know, it's just like, you know, 18:57.520 --> 19:00.280 enjoying something is the best way you're going 19:00.280 --> 19:01.580 to get knowledge. 19:01.580 --> 19:05.530 It's the best way you're going to learn. 19:05.530 --> 19:06.830 Yeah. No. It's true. 19:06.830 --> 19:08.900 I mean, you know, I go crazy. 19:08.900 --> 19:10.200 You know, like I'm kind 19:10.200 --> 19:11.500 of in the literary community, you know. 19:11.500 --> 19:17.350 Like and I just -- You know, 19:17.350 --> 19:21.140 it really is what's important is what John Updike was doing. 19:21.140 --> 19:25.840 And, you know, I didn't like Updike's writing so -- 19:25.840 --> 19:32.670 But it's kind of exclusive. 19:32.670 --> 19:39.240 And I think when you have a genre that's very inclusive, 19:39.240 --> 19:44.540 very popular, then it takes a really long time, you know, 19:44.540 --> 19:52.910 for people who want to own that real estate to accept it. 19:52.910 --> 19:56.180 But if you look at the history of literature all the way back 19:56.180 --> 19:59.670 to Homer, all -- Almost all of great fiction -- 19:59.670 --> 20:02.500 It's a little different in poetry, but almost all 20:02.500 --> 20:04.980 of great fiction, it was popular fiction. 20:04.980 --> 20:07.440 You know, it was "The Three Musketeers." 20:07.440 --> 20:10.170 It was, you know -- It was Charles Dickens. 20:10.170 --> 20:11.490 It's "Huckleberry Finn." 20:11.490 --> 20:15.460 It's, you know "Dead Souls" by Gogol in Russia. 20:15.460 --> 20:17.790 These are things that people want to read 20:17.790 --> 20:20.350 because they're laughing, it's really fun, 20:20.350 --> 20:22.430 what the guy's saying is really true. 20:22.430 --> 20:25.880 You know, the Bronte sisters. 20:25.880 --> 20:28.050 I mean, you know, it's like the Shakespeare. 20:28.050 --> 20:30.960 All of these people were entertainers. 20:30.960 --> 20:33.870 You know? And now someone comes up to me and says, well, 20:33.870 --> 20:36.560 "You know, I'm doing this deep dive in to this" you know, 20:36.560 --> 20:38.420 this person's personality, 20:38.420 --> 20:42.870 "I'm trying to make them look very real and very pedestrian." 20:42.870 --> 20:44.170 I'm going, "But why am I reading it?" 20:44.170 --> 20:49.630 You know? And, you know, a lot of times there is no reason. 20:49.630 --> 20:50.930 >> Yeah. Yeah. 20:50.930 --> 20:53.740 It should be a call to pleasure as well as a call 20:53.740 --> 20:56.690 to all the other things we want out of literature. 20:56.690 --> 21:00.160 I want to make sure though to talk about the book 21:00.160 --> 21:03.520 of yours that's coming out -- coming out in a couple of weeks. 21:03.520 --> 21:06.510 It's called "The Awkward Black Man." 21:06.510 --> 21:11.060 And a great collection of 17 short stories. 21:11.060 --> 21:13.750 You know, one of the things that struck me 21:13.750 --> 21:15.530 about this collection is 21:15.530 --> 21:21.250 that almost all the protagonists are awkward black men. 21:21.250 --> 21:26.700 They're kind of not at home in their own skin, so to speak. 21:26.700 --> 21:30.950 They're shy or they're socially awkward. 21:30.950 --> 21:34.320 I mean they're very different from Easy Rawlins, 21:34.320 --> 21:38.630 from Leonid McGill, you know your detective characters 21:38.630 --> 21:39.930 in that sense. 21:39.930 --> 21:41.230 And yet they're all loners. 21:41.230 --> 21:48.140 I mean they really seem to be most at home being 21:48.140 --> 21:51.910 by themselves whether, you know -- whether that's by choice 21:51.910 --> 21:55.530 or by social accident. 21:55.530 --> 22:00.150 So I let the [inaudible] I wondered if you wanted 22:00.150 --> 22:02.820 to talk a little bit about the title. 22:02.820 --> 22:05.470 "The Awkward Black Man." 22:05.470 --> 22:10.520 >> Well, you know, so many black male characters who appear 22:10.520 --> 22:13.130 in all kinds of fiction and literature and in the movies 22:13.130 --> 22:17.240 and television shows have, you know -- 22:17.240 --> 22:20.740 They have a great weight on their shoulders, 22:20.740 --> 22:23.030 and they're really, to a great degree, not always, 22:23.030 --> 22:24.330 caricaturized, you know. 22:24.330 --> 22:28.370 You have the best friend, the pimp, the criminal, 22:28.370 --> 22:31.210 the guy who says, "I'm really smart, and I'm going 22:31.210 --> 22:32.510 to be a really good detective." 22:32.510 --> 22:37.020 You know, whatever these people are, it's not, you know -- 22:37.020 --> 22:42.160 It's really hard to go very far from those kinds of notions. 22:42.160 --> 22:43.710 Those people exist. 22:43.710 --> 22:45.010 It's fine. 22:45.010 --> 22:48.330 But the thing is that [inaudible] want to talk 22:48.330 --> 22:53.920 to somebody, you know, who is a rap entrepreneur, but -- 22:53.920 --> 22:56.660 And he's so good at it that he gets hired for this -- 22:56.660 --> 23:00.080 you know, this future migrating souls 23:00.080 --> 23:02.290 because what they really need is a salesman, 23:02.290 --> 23:06.230 and he knows how to sell stuff. 23:06.230 --> 23:09.780 You know? Or you have, you know, a guy who's -- 23:09.780 --> 23:12.290 They say, "We'll give you this job, you know, 23:12.290 --> 23:13.650 because we need African Americans." 23:13.650 --> 23:14.950 Say, "Well, look. 23:14.950 --> 23:16.650 I'm not an African American." 23:16.650 --> 23:18.320 And they say, "What are you talking about?" 23:18.320 --> 23:19.890 He says, "Well, I'm not an African American. 23:19.890 --> 23:22.220 I say you're an Italian American. 23:22.220 --> 23:24.750 And this guy over here's a Mexican American. 23:24.750 --> 23:30.440 And you're going to give me a whole continent." 23:30.440 --> 23:31.740 You know? Where am I from? 23:31.740 --> 23:35.840 You know? You have that -- those notions that are very apparent, 23:35.840 --> 23:38.880 and everybody knows about it inside the black community. 23:38.880 --> 23:41.700 But it's kind of hard outside, you know. 23:41.700 --> 23:45.360 You have these ways of talking and thinking and at -- 23:45.360 --> 23:47.160 that don't include us. 23:47.160 --> 23:51.060 You know, somebody passed a rule that we're African Americans. 23:51.060 --> 23:52.360 You know, and so you know. 23:52.360 --> 23:54.460 I actually know of a woman, a young black woman, 23:54.460 --> 23:56.610 who was talking to her boss who's a white woman. 23:56.610 --> 23:59.380 And she said, "Well, you know, being black 23:59.380 --> 24:01.230 and a woman puts a hand on our arm." 24:01.230 --> 24:02.820 And she says, "African American." 24:02.820 --> 24:06.120 Now here's a black woman just said she was black, 24:06.120 --> 24:09.130 but this woman is going to correct her and say, "No." 24:09.130 --> 24:13.770 You know? And so I want to -- you know, un correct that. 24:13.770 --> 24:16.560 You know? And I want to talk about all these characters 24:16.560 --> 24:21.430 who have lives who we see in other literature, in other film 24:21.430 --> 24:23.810 and plays and stuff, but we're not seeing as much 24:23.810 --> 24:25.270 in the black community. 24:25.270 --> 24:29.790 And I want to -- I wanted to pinpoint, you know. 24:29.790 --> 24:31.090 >> Yeah. Yeah. 24:31.090 --> 24:34.190 The example you just gave about the woman being corrected 24:34.190 --> 24:38.290 and told she should refer to herself as African American 24:38.290 --> 24:41.620 of course reminds me of the op ed you wrote to the 24:41.620 --> 24:43.560 "New York Times" last year. 24:43.560 --> 24:47.110 Why I quit the writer's room. 24:47.110 --> 24:51.850 And, you know, that op ed was sparked by an incident 24:51.850 --> 24:55.250 where you used the N word in the writer's room 24:55.250 --> 24:57.170 for a show you were working on, 24:57.170 --> 25:01.460 and you were reported to HR for doing so. 25:01.460 --> 25:05.420 And rather than -- For various reasons, you just quit. 25:05.420 --> 25:10.260 I really would love to talk a little bit about that op ed 25:10.260 --> 25:12.530 which maybe you're tired of talking about, 25:12.530 --> 25:15.910 but it just seems, you know, you're an intellectual. 25:15.910 --> 25:17.500 You think through these issues. 25:17.500 --> 25:21.540 You were speaking out for free speech. 25:21.540 --> 25:26.380 You also gave the example of disagreeing with a friend 25:26.380 --> 25:30.700 of yours who mentioned that the confederate flag should 25:30.700 --> 25:32.000 be banned. 25:32.000 --> 25:34.640 You disagreed with that opinion. 25:34.640 --> 25:38.380 And I wonder, you know, as an intellectual, one of the marks 25:38.380 --> 25:40.760 of an intellectual is that you think things through, 25:40.760 --> 25:44.170 and sometimes you change your mind or you revise your opinion. 25:44.170 --> 25:47.210 In light of everything that's happening these days 25:47.210 --> 25:49.270 with Black Lives Matter, 25:49.270 --> 25:53.790 I wonder if you would -- I don't know. 25:53.790 --> 25:56.220 If you would still feel the same way, for instance, 25:56.220 --> 26:00.100 about the confederate flag and confederate statues and, 26:00.100 --> 26:02.950 you know, kind of that idea. 26:02.950 --> 26:05.910 If the positions you've taken are the same. 26:05.910 --> 26:08.840 >> The position I took then is the same I take now. 26:08.840 --> 26:11.840 I mean and the idea of telling me what kind 26:11.840 --> 26:13.140 of language I can use. 26:13.140 --> 26:17.920 Not because I'm a black man in America, but because, 26:17.920 --> 26:19.220 you know, I use language. 26:19.220 --> 26:20.900 Sometimes it makes people unhappy. 26:20.900 --> 26:22.200 Sometimes they love it. 26:22.200 --> 26:23.500 It doesn't matter. 26:23.500 --> 26:24.800 Sometimes somebody comes up and hits me in the head. 26:24.800 --> 26:26.100 Well, okay. 26:26.100 --> 26:27.850 I took that risk, and somebody hit me in the head. 26:27.850 --> 26:30.430 You know? It's -- You know, my friend said, you know, 26:30.430 --> 26:35.200 that he was trying to get an organization together 26:35.200 --> 26:38.080 to make the confederate flag illegal. 26:38.080 --> 26:40.120 Now I agree it shouldn't be like on state flags. 26:40.120 --> 26:42.130 It shouldn't be in the government. 26:42.130 --> 26:43.430 You know, we've got one flag. 26:43.430 --> 26:44.730 It's the United States. 26:44.730 --> 26:46.400 Like that's our flag. 26:46.400 --> 26:47.700 Okay. You know? 26:47.700 --> 26:49.000 Or we have a state flag. 26:49.000 --> 26:51.520 Okay. But I'm not going to say, you know, 26:51.520 --> 26:54.260 that a guy can't have whatever he thinks, 26:54.260 --> 26:56.200 you know, is his identity. 26:56.200 --> 26:57.500 And believe me. 26:57.500 --> 26:58.800 If somebody has a confederate flag in his heart, 26:58.800 --> 27:01.980 I wouldn't mind seeing it on his car, swinging in his front yard. 27:01.980 --> 27:03.280 It's okay with me. 27:03.280 --> 27:09.770 You know? I think that the idea of the freedom of speech, 27:09.770 --> 27:12.190 and I think a lot of times in America today like, you know, 27:12.190 --> 27:14.610 people correcting speech, telling people there are things 27:14.610 --> 27:17.600 that you can't say, coming up with rules of language 27:17.600 --> 27:19.750 that you can't use, even though that language is 27:19.750 --> 27:22.430 in the dictionary, you know, I'm saying, "No. 27:22.430 --> 27:24.030 This is not a good thing." 27:24.030 --> 27:26.700 Because it's going to come back at the people who think 27:26.700 --> 27:28.450 that they're taking charge of it. 27:28.450 --> 27:30.330 And that's the problem. 27:30.330 --> 27:34.880 You know, we have to protect everyone because that's, 27:34.880 --> 27:37.160 you know, what the constitution says. 27:37.160 --> 27:38.460 You know, being black in America, 27:38.460 --> 27:43.390 having been refused the rights of the constitution 27:43.390 --> 27:46.750 for centuries, and you know I'm going to really be committed 27:46.750 --> 27:50.030 to everybody having those rights because that's one way to, 27:50.030 --> 27:53.840 you know, make sure that I and mine have it. 27:53.840 --> 27:55.140 >> Have you thought 27:55.140 --> 27:57.430 about writing a monograph on this subject? 27:57.430 --> 28:00.890 I think it would be kind of timely. 28:00.890 --> 28:03.160 >> You know, I've thought about it some. 28:03.160 --> 28:05.800 I haven't quite, you know, worked it through yet. 28:05.800 --> 28:10.940 You know? It's like -- You know, people got mad 28:10.940 --> 28:12.240 at me when I went around. 28:12.240 --> 28:15.210 I went around doing, you know -- being interviewed. 28:15.210 --> 28:19.760 And some people got really mad at me for saying these things. 28:19.760 --> 28:22.700 And so, you know, you kind of have to do it in a way -- 28:22.700 --> 28:25.970 Because I don't want to do it to make people unhappy. 28:25.970 --> 28:29.270 I don't want to say, you know, that I believe that, you know, 28:29.270 --> 28:32.050 women should be stalked and brutalized by men. 28:32.050 --> 28:36.180 That racism is just okay and we like it. 28:36.180 --> 28:39.020 You know? But, you know, we have it in the White House. 28:39.020 --> 28:41.360 So like not far away from where you are. 28:41.360 --> 28:45.890 And I want to be able to -- 28:45.890 --> 28:50.890 I want to be able to say it in such a way 28:50.890 --> 28:53.610 that we're having a sensible conversation, 28:53.610 --> 28:57.710 and not having, you know, an impact. 28:57.710 --> 28:59.640 Head butting. 28:59.640 --> 29:01.090 >> Hard to do. 29:01.090 --> 29:04.360 We're almost out of time so I -- 29:04.360 --> 29:08.920 You mentioned there's a new Easy Rawlins on the horizon. 29:08.920 --> 29:11.510 Can you tell us a little bit about that? 29:11.510 --> 29:12.890 >> Oh, I'm so happy. 29:12.890 --> 29:14.670 It's a book called "Blood Grove." 29:14.670 --> 29:19.170 And it really goes in to Easy's military history. 29:19.170 --> 29:21.700 That he takes on a case with this veteran, 29:21.700 --> 29:25.070 this young veteran from Vietnam, 1969. 29:25.070 --> 29:30.720 And he does it because he identifies as much with veterans 29:30.720 --> 29:33.810 and victims of war as he does with black people. 29:33.810 --> 29:36.310 He says, you know, "I've been through the war. 29:36.310 --> 29:37.610 I was at the Battle of Bulge. 29:37.610 --> 29:39.240 I know what this is." 29:39.240 --> 29:40.670 And, you know, you just kind of love it. 29:40.670 --> 29:43.700 I mean the idea being -- of Easy being able to do this. 29:43.700 --> 29:48.170 But at the same time being a black man in Los Angeles in 1969 29:48.170 --> 29:50.950 which is not -- I mean it's a lot easier than 1939, 29:50.950 --> 29:54.440 but still it's not all that good. 29:54.440 --> 29:55.740 You know? 29:55.740 --> 29:57.040 >> It sounds great. 29:57.040 --> 30:02.820 I look forward to it, and you know just want to thank you 30:02.820 --> 30:04.710 for all the writing you do. 30:04.710 --> 30:09.440 It's -- We may not always agree, but it's always provocative. 30:09.440 --> 30:12.870 And I am always carried away 30:12.870 --> 30:15.010 by the detective fiction that you write. 30:15.010 --> 30:16.310 Thank you. 30:16.310 --> 30:17.610 >> Thank you. 30:17.610 --> 30:18.910 I appreciate it. 30:18.910 --> 30:20.210 Thanks for the talk. 30:20.210 --> 30:22.010 It's been great. 30:22.010 --> 30:51.960 [ Music ]