>> Karen Lloyd: Welcome to the Library of Congress's Veterans History Project Panel discussion, "Veteran Grown: Urban Farming." I'm Karen Lloyd, Director of the Veterans History Project, and an Army veteran. On behalf of the Librarian of Congress, Dr. Carla Hayden, I'd like to thank you for choosing to join us today. I would like to thank your moderator, Margo Hale, and all the panelists for accepting our invitation to share their experiences and expertise. I would especially like to thank all the veterans, both in the panel and in our viewing audience, for their service and the sacrifices they have made for our country. It is through oral history that we learn about the life and experiences and perspectives of people who might otherwise not appear in the historical record. And oral history also provides a rich opportunity for human interaction. Congress greatly understood this concept when it established the Veterans History Project in October 2000 by unanimous decision. The Veterans History Project Mission is to collect, preserve, and make accessible the firsthand remembrances of U.S. military veterans for future generations so that they may better understand what veterans saw, felt, and heard. Since its establishment, the Veterans History Project has archived more than 111,000 collections from the brave men and women who served from World War I through the current conflicts. As our veterans come home and transition back into civilian life, they often face many challenges, from fiscal and emotional health to finding employment and reengaging with their communities. Farming and other careers related to the agriculture were proven to be beneficial to veterans, their families, and communities. Our panelists will share with you how they have achieved success and how they have each found a unique way to pay it forward. We'll be monitoring the comments section and look forward to your questions. First, we are honored that Representative Kim Schrier, representing Washington's 8th District, a member of the House Agricultural Committee and an ardent supporter of VHP, chose to participate with us today via a welcome video. >> Rep. Kim Schrier: Good afternoon, I'm Congresswoman Kim Schrier from Washington's 8th Congressional District. Thank you for joining us for the Library of Congress Veterans History Projects Panel, "Veteran Grown: Urban Farming," as we delve into the fascinating topic of veterans who work in sustainable agricultures in urban settings, as well as the specialized programs that support them. This is the first of two panels on veteran farming that the Veterans History Project will host. The next one, "Veteran Grown: Farming," will focus on farming in places other than urban settings, so stay tuned for details on that event. As a former pediatrician and a member of the House Committee on Agriculture, I recognize the importance of having a sustainable, equitable, and resilient food system in place, and I know that begins with agriculture. Farming does not always require large tracts of lands. It can be done in the most heavily populated city, in someone's yard, on a vacant lot, or even on a rooftop. It includes beekeeping, hydroponics, shipping container farming, and so much more. Oftentimes, urban gardens are tied into educational and training programs, philanthropic endeavors, or commerce opportunities that help build strong communities. Those that are veteran owned, or support veterans' programs are particularly near and dear to my heart because their benefits extend beyond the veterans to the entire community. As you watch today's panel, it is my hope that you will be inspired to support an existing veteran-run urban farm near you, or even consider starting your own. Veterans History Project is home to more than 111,000 veterans' collections to date, making it the nation's largest repository of veterans' firsthand stories and a valuable resource for researchers, educators, students, and everyday people. For more information visit www.loc.gov/vets. That's www.loc.gov, G-O-V, slash vets with an S. Thank you, and enjoy the panel. >> Karen Lloyd: Thank you, Representative Schrier for your kind words and for your commitment to veterans and the ag community. The Veterans History Project prides itself on being nonpartisan and treasures the support and active participation we receive from both sides of the aisle. I was first introduced to our moderator, Margo Hale, last summer when we decided to host a panel to discuss farming as a viable and increasingly popular career path for veterans. Margo played an active role in our planning team. The more the team talked about issues around veterans who farm and the people and programs that support them, it became clear that not only is she an expert on these issues, but she knows almost everybody who works in this field. Her background as a child of dairy farmers and her current line of work make her the perfect person to facilitate this discussion. Margo is the Southeast Regional Director for the National Center for Appropriate Technology, otherwise known as NCAT, and also serves as the Sustainable Livestock Specialist for NCAT's Ultra-Sustainable Ag program. Since 2011, Margo has led NCAT's efforts to train military veterans interested in agriculture through Armed to Farm. She has worked in the fields of sustainable livestock production, beginning farmer training, farmer outreach and education, regional sustainable agriculture outreach. Margo has extensive experience in developing and implementing farmer trainings, has written dozens of sustainable livestock production publications, manages farm-to-school efforts through FoodCorps Arkansas, and has given many presentations and workshops throughout the country. It is my distinct pleasure to introduce Margo Hale. >> Margo Hale: Welcome, everyone, and thank you so much to our panelists. I will quickly introduce them before I give them a chance to share their stories with you. We have Sarah Dachos from Washington, D.C., Sean Dalgarn from Lynden, Washington, and Jeanette Lombardo from Sacramento, California. So, Sean, let's start with you. >> Sean Dalgarn: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. My name is Sean Dalgarn. I'm a United States Air Force veteran. I enlisted in 2005 and honorably discharged in 2009. I deployed to Iraq twice, [inaudible] northern Iraq in 2005, Baghdad in 2007, and Kuwait in 2008. I got out in 2009, and I've been working with veterans ever since. I'm also the Executive Director of Growing Veterans. We're a nonprofit based out of Lynden, Washington. >> Margo Hale: All right, Sarah, we'll go to you next. >> Sarah Dachos: Well, thank you, Margo. I'm so grateful to here today. Grateful that I've been asked to be on this panel because of what I'm doing, which is something I truly love and feel strongly about, working on the urgent issues of environmental justice and climate change mitigation in some of our most marginalized D.C. neighborhoods by installing on-site composting machines and training local people how to maintain and service them. How I got there is a long story, and I will try to summarize it, which is I joined the Navy in 1989, and when I attended the United States Naval Academy. I came from a family of Navy grads. My father and brother were both graduates. So it was logical that I would follow in their footsteps. My nephew recently graduated from there, and it looks like my youngest one is also pursuing a Naval Academy education in a couple of years. So it runs in the family. Upon commissioning, I attended the Flight School -- I attended Flight School, excuse me, and became a P3 pilot, then just pursued, frankly, a typical naval career. I was stationed both abroad and here in the U.S. before retiring at 21 years. Much of my time in service, I thought about our waste, about how much waste the Navy produces. I recall even as a young girl taking part in what they called a Princess Cruise, in which daughters are allowed to be aboard for a few days with their serving parents, being shocked at the garbage that was dumped overboard, tons and tons of garbage, it seemed to me, which of course, it was not tons, but I was young with a lack of ability to spatially measure. I was heartened that, years later, under Secretary Mabus, who served from 2008 to 2016, the Secretary of the Navy, he made significant efforts to green the Navy, calling it the Greet -- the Great Green Fleet, as a play on Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet, via innovative fuels like those made from switch grass and algae, and maximizing renewable energy on base locations, to name just a few of his initiatives. Though Secretary Mabus was highly concerned with climate change, his ideas were able to take hold because they were driven by national security concerns. How can we afford to maintain national security with the current price of nonrenewable energy resources? And that idea really took root with me. How can we convince all sides to see that climate change can be solved not only for ecological reasons but for economic ones as well? I got involved with farming soon after I left the Navy, more as a hobby. But because I soon learned about how effective regenerative farming can be, how much it can help reverse the effects of climate change via carbon sequestration, and how economically beneficial regenerative farming can be for the producer, not to mention how conventional farming contributes to almost 40% of total greenhouse gas emissions, I was soon on my way to a new career. As I continued to work in this space, I learned more about how racially discriminatory our agricultural sector is as well. And as a racial justice advocate for many years, I have spent a great deal of my time in ag trying to influence policy to counter that. Loop Closing was a great combination for both, and I look forward to talking to you about that in more detail during our discussion today. >> Margo Hale: Wow, thank you, Sarah. All right, Jeanette, please share about the work you're doing and how you are here to serve our farmer veterans. >> Jeanette Lombardo: So thank you, Margo, for having me today. So I am the Executive Director for the Farmer Veteran Coalition. Like Sarah, you know, getting into this role is a journey. I was born in [inaudible] in Germany. My father was in the Air Force. When he discharged from the Air Force, he went back home, which was a small, rural farming community outside of Erie, Pennsylvania. My family were farmers, and dairy farmers, actually, and so grew up in that environment. Went to Edinboro University of Pennsylvania, which, there's a lot of Irish in that part of Pennsylvania, so then went to Cal State Fullerton. I was an agricultural lender for 24 years, working throughout the United States, and then working -- leaving that industry and going into advocacy for agriculture, both at the local, state, and federal level. My first state appointment was on the LA Regional Water Quality Control Board, which was an appointment through Governor Schwarzenegger, and then that led to a federal appointment to the USDA Foreign Ag Services Division, where I worked on the Food Safety Modernization Act. This past June, my second federal appointment has been with the U.S. EPA Farm, Ranch, and Rural Communities Committee, where I work on the three charges that have been given to us by Andrew Wheeler, and continuing on with the new administration, which is on food waste, water quality and quantity, and coming up with a holistic pesticide program. So those are the three issues I'm working on now. If it wasn't for COVID, I wouldn't be at Farmer Veteran Coalition. [laughs] Literally, because my whole world was shut down, I was actually -- answered the phone call when a recruiter called, so that was a really good thing for me. And this job, as you can tell, takes everything that I am and puts it in a nice little package with a little red bow on top of it. So it allows me to advocate for farmers, advocate for veterans, which are a huge part of my family. And I understand their roles, their issues, their challenges, so it's very fulfilling. >> Margo Hale: Thank you so much. As you can see, our panelists are amazing and have some great experiences. So we'll get into some of the questions now and hear from them. So, Sean, once again, I'm going to start with you. And would you please share a little bit about your organization, and more specifically, the farm that's part of that organization, and really, how your military service has impacted the work there with, you know, with the farm and with the other veterans that you're working with? So just give us a little bit more information about that. >> Sean Dalgarn: Absolutely. So, like I mentioned before, I'm the Executive Director at Growing Veterans, and I'm a veteran myself, and Growing Veterans Mission is to empower military veterans to grow food, community, and each other. And those are three very important components to reintegrating from active duty service into civilian life. One big thing that we've identified, or specifically that I've experienced getting out of the military, is that you lose something that you can't really identify right away. And one of the things that you lose is camaraderie and a sense of belonging to a mission and that's bigger than yourself. And for me personally, to be able to reconnect with other veterans in the community through sustainable agriculture has been transformative in so many ways. Growing food is pretty explanatory. We are a 3-acre, organic-certified farm. We grow a myriad of your rote crops, to include hops and peppers, so on, and so forth, and we partner with local businesses to create value-added items. We are also a host site for veterans that are going through school via the VA Work Study, and then we're also an approved Veteran Conservation Core Internship Site. And one thing that's really important about bringing all these people together is that we're able to work towards a common goal. And we provide opportunities for people to learn about sustainable agriculture, better themselves, and a big key component to that is peer support. And that's one of the pillars of what we do. We meet people where they're at, whether they have experienced trauma, or they're interested in just learning about Veterans Affairs, or getting involved with an organization that cares about its community. A big part of what we've done this year due to COVID-19 is donate 4,800 pounds of all the produce that we've grown this year to our local food banks to fight the need that's become far more prevalent, especially since COVID-19. And so that's been a huge driving force for us. We invite the community to come out. While we are a veterans organization, we are not a veterans club. Anybody that wants to be out there can come out and get involved. We've had everyone visit the farm from World War II to Vietnam to Korea to, you know, OIF/OEF, Desert Storms, so on, and so forth. So we invite everyone to come out to the farm. And we also have another location that we just recently opened on Whidbey Island, which is really close to NAS Whidbey, which is a large veteran population. I believe it's the largest per capita in Washington State. So we're trying to reach out to folks, active duty specifically, because there's a lot of folks that are coming out of the military and don't have any idea of what they want to do. We want to catch them before they fall. So that's a big part of what we do. We also have an accredited peer support training that we've developed. We've trained hundreds of veterans and non-veterans to be able to go out into the world, whether they go off to another veteran organization or they go home, and they interact with folks, and they utilize those skills to be able to meet people where they're at, navigate difficult conversations, whether they relate to trauma, and be there where that person is, hopefully being able to catch them before they fall into, you know, dangerous self-inflicted behavior. So that's a big part of what we do, and we just want to share it with the world. >> Margo Hale: Wow, well, thank you, Sean. Now you've shared it with a lot more people, so I know they'll be folks [laughs] checking you guys out and all the good work that you're doing. So thank you so much. So, Sarah, I want to ask you. I know that besides what you're doing with your composting business, you also have been an urban beekeeper and have worked in kind of urban food systems. And so please, you know, share a little bit about that work and kind of how you, you know, really made that jump into agriculture production with your bees and other aspects. >> Sarah Dachos: Yeah, sure. Well, you know, when I first got out of the Navy, like I said, I started farming as a hobby. I was not sure what I wanted to do. It was, you know, as Sean implied, it is such a incredible jump to leave the military. And in my case, I was a Navy brat as well, so I had really been in the military for 40 years when I finally got out. So I took six months off, and I thought I was just going to go back into corporate world, or go into corporate world, you know? I -- and by volunteering at this local farm that was in the city and that served -- it had a mobile market that served wards, the two wards in our city that are really very marginalized and don't have great access to supermarkets or dense, nutritious food. To give you a perspective, there's 220,000 people who live in those two neighborhoods, and there's only three supermarkets. So it was quite an eye opener. As a military person, I just was never exposed to any of that. I didn't know about our food systems. I didn't know -- I mean, the good, the bad, the ugly, whatever, I didn't know anything about them. I just ate. So that was my connection with food systems. So working on this farm really opened my eyes both to farming in general -- I loved it. I loved harvesting. I loved weeding. I think a lot of people actually love to weed. I loved -- no. [laughs] [inaudible] free, you know, it can be very satisfying. And I loved the business end of it well, surprisingly. I know a lot of farmers don't like the business end, but I really enjoyed that. And I was exposed to beekeeping there, so I took a beekeeping class and became a beekeeper, as you stated, and I had -- at one point, I had five different hives all over the city. I was mentoring quite a few people in the city, really teaching people how to bee keep, and figuring out ways for them to get funding to buy beekeeping equipment. And we have a really strong Beekeepers Alliance in D.C., so being able to connect people with those people so they could have harvesting equipment so they could sell their honey. And in D.C., we have a very strong Food Policy Council that helps beginner farmers -- or beginner producers, beginner merchants, anybody who's in the food system, so are really able to help people make that leap from maybe cottage industry to something a little bit bigger. And I've been involved in that for five years now, and really enjoy it. I really love allowing people -- or helping people to see that they have it in them to be their own producers. And it's a leap. It's a leap of faith, right? And especially if you have, you know, children or you, you know, you're not just relying on yourself, or that people are relying on you. It's a leap of faith. And that's something I want us to talk about also, is some of the questions I know you're going to ask about, like, the challenges of farming. I mean, that's one of the biggest ones, that it can be economically challenging and burdensome. And so to know what resources are out there that can help you, whether it's through nonprofits or your local governments has been -- it's a key to it. And that has really been -- yes, I do bee keep. I do sell my honey. I am considered a farmer under USDA because I still have enough of it for that. I can do the USDA Census. But really, my passion is in helping others to make that leap themselves. And that's what I've been doing. And I would say almost -- now, almost every larger municipality has some type of food policy council, and that's a great way for you to get in the know of what is happening in your own local government, and also to help influence policy. You know, if you're on the food policy council, or if you write to people on the food policy council, if you're in connection with people on the food policy council, to let them know what your issues are that can help your own operations, that's a really good thing to do. >> Margo Hale: Yes, thank you so much, Sarah. And yes, we will talk about some resources and how all of us here on the call, you know, the services and programs that we offer and how you can get connected to those. But you're right, there is a lot of help out there, and that's -- part of this is getting folks connected to that, to see how that they can plug in to, you know, urban farming, or agriculture, or any of these food system pieces. So thanks for sharing that, Sarah. Jeanette, you shared about, you know, kind of how you came to work for Farmer Veteran Coalition, and obviously, your long connection to military veterans and how that is important to you. Could you share just a little bit more about the Farmer Veteran Coalition and how they serve farmer veterans across the country? >> Jeanette Lombardo: So our focus is on beginning farmers and ranchers, and really transitioning those that are leaving the military, giving -- allowing them to explore the various careers and types of farming and methods of farming that are out there for agriculture. A lot of our veterans, they went into the military because they lived in rural communities, and when they get out, they want to go back because their family's there. But maybe the reason they went in, there was no opportunities for employment there, and to go back means sometimes that hasn't changes. So creating a company and starting farming, and sometimes it goes in steps, right? We have your beginning farmers, and you, you know, grow, and we go mid-range, and eventually, some [inaudible], you know, I think if initially, they started a lot with part-time employment, and then they worked their way into letting the farm just be the business. But, you know, I think when Michael O'Gorman started this, he realized that, you know, our farmers across this country, which is, like, 1 to 2% of the population, was decreasing. The average age was increasing. And they were dying off, and we needed to fill that to make sure we have food security. And the fit between veterans and farmers is very good fit because, you know, it's a purpose. You work every day to feed people. I mean, and a lot of people feel this is like, you know, God's purpose for them is like, you know, feeding people three times a day every day, day after day, and it fills this mission in them. And I think just working with the dirt and raising animals, it's healing in many different ways, and it's a great quality of life that I think we all would love to do. But, you know, we -- when you've never worked in farming before, or grew up in it, or even our urban farmers, you know, where do you start? What do you do? And that's sort of where we come in. You know, we help with career counseling. We help with, you know, doing business plans and crop plans, and giving financing. We have a technical support, as far as, you know, what to grow, what's my water quality? What's my soil samples? You know, the real technical questions. We help getting financing using your benefits, you know, that are available to veterans because that is a whole other puzzle that is hard to maneuver sometimes. And then, you know, we do peer-to-peer support. We have -- we're a national nonprofit. We have currently chapters up and running, largely thanks to Sarah. She started that when she worked with us. But we have, after our conference last November, we have 23 right now in [inaudible] that we're trying to get up and running. And we're about 23,000 members right now. We're adding about 400 a month. And so there is this huge tsunami of new people coming that we have to -- that we're going through growth, which is a great issue to have. So that's very exciting. But what happens at the chapter level is that peer-to-peer support, where, you know, my tractor broke down, can I borrow yours? I'm trying -- you know, because you're close so you all experience the same issues, whether it's a weather issue or a trade issue or a disease issue maybe with what you're growing. So it allows folks to come together and work through some of those problems. You know, we do a lot of resource referrals. We have some great partners. Wounded Warrior we added this year, Combined Arms Institute. So we have this, I have to say, close to 300 groups across the country that help our members in a number of ways. We do offer corporate discounts. I was hearing Sarah talk about her beekeeping. We have a lot of beekeepers that find peace in the noise of hives, so to speak, and so they just enjoy it. To create something from nothing and grow a business from nothing is very exciting for them. So we offer corporate discounts so people can buy the things that they need. We also have a lot of programs. We have the Home Grown by Heroes program, which is a labeling -- it's a marketing program that helps our farmers sell their products in the farmers markets or CSAs or however they sell it. We have a new one that we'll probably talk about when we get into COVID called Market Maker that helps people sell their products. We have a fellowship program which actually is out right now, where we give mini grants, like from $1 to $5,000. We've given over $3 million in mini grants to help people launch and continue to grow their farms. We've starting a training program this year. Kubota [assumed spelling] called us and they're like, "I need 1,000 mechanics." You know, "Set up a training program." So we're doing that. We're working also on some drone flying training programs and some pesticide applicator programs. So and we're also looking at remote jobs because about, oh, 59% right now, I think, of our membership is in some way classified as -- has a disability ranking. So it allows them to -- you know, with COVID, we realized remote jobs are possible. So we're looking at working with ag career placement agencies to get the jobs that are in the agricultural sector but don't require you to work in the field, so say, logistics or marketing or compliance, that people can do from their homes with the support of their families. And so we're looking at doing a little bit of that, and we're actually just starting a new partnership with PsychArmor and working on some of the mental health issues because we have to face the reality that we've put two groups of people together that have a high suicide rate: farming and veterans. And you know, you just can't ignore that. So we -- you know, I think especially during COVID, people have taken a different attitude towards mental health because we've all been, you know, anxious. We've all had panic attacks, and been maybe some depression, and you know, so I think everybody can relate to that. And there's much more willingness to talk about it now, which has been great. So that's sort of who we are and what we do. Thank you. >> Margo Hale: Thank you so much, Jeanette. And as you can see, everyone should look up Farm Veteran Coalition and join them as a member. If you're a veteran interested in farming or you're a support person who wants to support farmer veterans, definitely get connected to them and find a chapter if there's a chapter in your state. I'm on the board of the Arkansas Farmer Veteran Coalition Chapter, so it is a really great organization, and they provide so many resources and support for our farmer veterans, and help them get connected to all the resources available all across the country. So definitely please look up Farmer Veteran Coalition. So my next question is for Sean and Sarah. And since you guys have both been actively involved in production in an urban setting, if you could share with you, what have been some of the challenges that you've seen, you know, with your production, your farming production? But also, what are some of the benefits, or the good things that you've seen with your production. And Sean, I'll go ahead and start with you. >> Sean Dalgarn: Well, I'll start with the benefits, for sure. I hear the word "dirt therapy" thrown around -- or words -- and that's a big part of what we do. I think, paradoxically, what matters with Growing Veterans is that food is a byproduct of the people doing well. Our product is ultimately people, and if we take care of them, then the food comes. It's definitely a lot -- there's a lot more to it than that, but that's kind of the easy way to break it down. Ideally, for us, you know, we'll have a good growing season, where we're able to donate a lot of food. We're able to partner with local businesses to produce value-added products. So we grow peppers and garlic, and we have honey in our apiary that we harvest and extract, and we partner with El Fuego Hot Sauce, which is a local hot sauce producer, and we make our File in the Hole Hot Sauce, which we are able to put a Homegrown by Heroes label on. Thank you, Jeanette. And yeah, it's fantastic. It gives our veterans and the community something to buy into, and that's ultimately what we're looking for because our goal is to build community, camaraderie, and ultimately abolish the isolation that leads to veteran suicide. That's our number-one, pie-in-the-sky vision. And what we -- we are also a stepping stone, a professional stepping stone for a lot of veterans and non-veterans that come out to the farm, whether it's through the form of internships, VA Work Study, so on, and so forth. So growing food for us is really important because what it does is it shows that you can bring life into this world. You can kind of change yourself from the ground up, essentially, and repurpose yourself, or find something under the umbrella of sustainable agriculture that entices you, whether it's marketing or physically growing the food, or so on, and so forth. But some of the -- the difficulties can be, you know, for someone breaking out into this type of work, could be marketing, finding markets that you can break into. Whether it's, you know, finding someone to buy your produce, or finding a way to, you know, get it out into the world is really the most difficult part as far as I know. There's a lot of people that grow food. There's a lot of people that do it really well. And how do you compete with that? And we're finding that you find -- you know, you do what you do well, and you try and find a niche. And for us personally, we're lucky that ultimately our goal is mental health and wellness, and the food comes as a byproduct of that, like I said. And our mission now is primarily to feed the community, to build the community through our food, and that's a catalyst for change, positive change. And that's ultimately our goal. So we're very lucky, I guess, in the sense that our driving force isn't necessarily production, though we do produce a lot of food. Our driving force is the people, and the food comes as a result of that. And we're able to pump it out into the community, feed folks that might not actually have access to those nourishing whole foods, whether it's our beets, or our carrots, our lettuce, our tomatoes, so on, and so forth. We also grow hops, which is really exciting. We have five different varieties that we grow on the farm. We grow Cascade, Crystal, Centennial, Columbus, and Chinook, and we partner with local breweries -- specifically an organic brewery called Aslan Brewery -- to produce our Fire -- our Fire in the Hole -- our Charlie Foxtrot IPA, and because it's a cluster of hops that we use to produce this fresh hop IPA. We've also partnered with other breweries as well to do some other small batch releases. But it's really important for veterans to see the full circle aspect of growing your product, seeing it incorporated into something, and seeing it put on a shelf. And that's really what our goal is to do, is inspire, you know, build community, and then, hopefully, you know, put those people out into the world and so they can make changes of their own accord. So that's the short and skinny of it. >> Margo Hale: Wow, thank you, Sean. That's some really wonderful experiences that you're able to plug folks into so they can see that whole circle. So that's great. They get a chance to see the production side and the marketing side of value-added products. That's really, really amazing that you have all of those things going there. So thanks for sharing that. Sarah, could you, you know, share a little bit about what are some of the challenges or benefits that you have encountered in your urban farming experience? >> Sarah Dachos: Sure. Before I do that though, I want to tell you that, Sean, my nephew is -- he's a lieutenant JG station out of Washington right north of Seattle in Everett, and he's had your Charlie Foxtrot, and he thinks it's great. So keep it up. I saw that on your website, and I asked him about it, and he knows it and loves it. So he's coming home after an 11-month deployment, which I know for the Army, that's -- and you're Air Force, but, you know, for Army folks who are listening in, 11 months is nothing compared to what they do. But for the Navy, we usually do about 9 months, so he's really ready to get back to Seattle and drink some of your beer. But yeah, so I -- to discuss some of the -- everything Sean said I completely agree with him, and not just, you know, with veterans, but non-veterans. We all benefit from all of these things that Sean highlighted. The other benefit I would say about urban gardening, or farming, specifically is that the last mile isn't as much of a factor with urban farming, right? And that usually is such a big discussion item with so many farmers, is how do you close that last mile? Well, if you are farming on a roof or if you're farming right in the city, you know, many of the urban farmers in Washington, D.C. talk about how that is not as much of an issue, how it's really easy to get -- relatively speaking, to get that produce to the restaurant, to the grocery store. Or if it's a CSA, you know, right to the client. And as a beekeeper, I would say that. Though, I mean, the challenges, of course, with that last mile with beekeeping is that most beekeeping in a city happens on the roof, and most rooftops in cities all across the country -- I don't know if this is across the world, but certainly in the U.S. -- is that the last floor doesn't have an elevator, and it's also a floor and a half. So you are carrying all that gear. And when you're harvesting, those 100-pound boxes of supers of honey, you're carrying that a good distance. [laughs] So, you know, so you definitely stay in shape by being an urban farmer just as much as you were with a -- as being a rural farmer. The other thing that I think is an advantage is that the benefit of networking is so much more personal. Of course, now, with the age of COVID, it's more virtual, no matter what. But because there is a more dense population of farmers in cities, you find that the networking in person can be a little bit easier, with, you know, higher numbers of people because there's just higher numbers of people living in vicinity of each other who are doing this work. So it was really easy to get together with people, whereas, you know, the work I did with Farmer Veteran Coalition, we would travel to such great lengths to see one, two, three farmers. And I know that was always something that people talked about, that it was a little bit more challenging. So those are two benefits. But then, you know, there are some serious challenges in the urban setting. One is land access. Land, one, is not as accessible. There just isn't as much land in an urban environment, obviously. But also, land is more expensive in an urban environment, and it's becoming more and more so as development continues. We're seeing an incredible amount of development happening in urban settings all across our country, and that's driving up prices, and that is also bringing in more people into the cities. I know COVID is having a little bit of a countereffect to this, but not so much that it's providing more access to land for urban farmers. So that's a real challenge. It's really difficult to get banks to give you money in the urban setting for farming because they just don't think you're going to pay them back. So that's real. And then the second thing is regulatory challenges. There are as many different regulations around urban ag as there are municipalities in this country, I swear. I worked on this on my master's thesis. I have a master's in urban ag, and this was my theme, and it's really incredible what a hodgepodge of regulations exist in this country. Many of these regulations date back over 100 years, when cows were rightly banned for hygiene regions. But that has now affected chickens, bees. Bees are banned in almost all urban spaces. Washington, D.C. is one of the exceptions of a real city city that allows bees, and that was through very, very careful advocacy by the D.C. Beekeepers Alliance to make that happen. And other cities are following the suit of what the D.C. Beekeepers Alliance did to try to get bees in cities. With new technology, such as hydroponics and aquaponics, or roof farms, you know, how roof farms really have to be compliant with how strong and waterproof, water-resistant their roofs are, there's just a lot of confusion by city council members and mayors, and their staffs, on how to be open to logical regulation. Legislation has not caught up with technology. I mean, for example, with my composting business, which is, you know, very, very much farming -- you know, I mean, we produce compost that goes onto farmers -- almost every agency in D.C. loves our work and has supported our work, and does -- it has various -- you know, it's such a weird way, the way the D.C. government handles food -- or not food waste aversion, but waste aversion period. And so there's all these different agencies who are involved in our work. All of them approve it except Department of Health. Department of Health will not approve it, despite the fact that our composting mechanisms are cleaner and more sealed than dumpsters that are sitting in the same spot that our composters would sit. So anybody who's new, a new business, has to get their -- all of the parts of their business approved by Department of Health. So if you're a new business, Department of Health will reject your having an on-site composter. If you're an old business, if you're a restaurant that's already existed and then you add a composter, no problem. See? Like, it's just -- so this is very typical across the country, this type of different regulations. So be on the lookout for it. >> Margo Hale: Yeah, thank you, Sarah. Yeah, Jeanette, do you have something to add? >> Jeanette Lombardo: I would add water and energy too to that list because the cost of water -- there's no ag rate, right, when you're in the city, and you're farming on a half an acre or an acre, right? So it's hard when you look at the margins that you get with vegetable production, and then you have a high input cost like that, it's hard. Or if you grow inside a warehouse, right, and you're having to pay for the lights, you know, for the sun, and then you're having to pay to cool it, like air conditioning. It's not -- you know, that's where you run into some issues. And then, you know, there's been some food safety issues because some of the community spaces, you know, they're not fenced like you would have in rural communities, and so you may have urban animals using your community garden as a toilet. So, I mean, there's things like that that have to be worked out. And that's where -- you know, where the cities, Sarah's absolutely right. It's regulatory issues to figuring out how you can do it and do it profitably, I think. So. >> Margo Hale: Yes, thank you, very important. You know, there are a lot of considerations and challenges. We don't want to discourage you, though. There are definitely opportunities to get involved in urban farming. And hopefully, you've gained some resources and will throughout the rest of the panel to help get you connected if you're interested. I want to change gears just a bit. We've all kind of talked about it. It's been mentioned several times so far in the panel. But how COVID-19 has impacted your operations and your organizations. I mean, we can't not talk about COVID-19, and it definitely has had an impact all across the agriculture and food system sectors. I think everybody has been very aware of that this year. So I'll let -- maybe, Jeanette, we'll start with you, and just, you know, maybe talk a little bit how FEC has addressed some of the issues with COVID-19, and you know, maybe how maybe there's been some new things come out of it because we've all had to be innovative and flexible and change how we're doing things. So please, you know, share about that. And then, Sarah, and Sean, I'll let you share, you know, how COVID-19 has impacted your farm production or any of the other work that you do. >> Jeanette Lombardo: Well, I have to tell you, it's been a journey. [laughs] And a lot of positives have come out of it. But if you all remember, like, back in March, there was -- people would walk into a grocery store and there was panic, right, because the shelves were empty. First it started with the toilet paper, and then it went it to, you know, any canned good, any meat. There was, like, nothing. And so I think one of the good things that came out of that is -- well, I'll get to that in a minute. But first of all, there was a -- in the agricultural sector, there was this huge shift away from food service -- so all the hotels closed. All their venues closed. You know, airlines closed. So all the food that was being grown for that sector got dumped in the retail sector, and then the pricing collapsed. And so you had a lot of food out there that was just rotting that had to be plowed under, and that was a huge financial loss. So that was huge. But I think that is where our small beginning farmers and ranchers really kicked in and really -- they really shown what they could do for their community. I will tell you that there was this disruption in the infrastructure. There was this lag time of getting products to refill -- not that there was a absence of product. There was inventory, but because there was so much hoarding happening, there was this lag time. And this is where people really, I think, stepped in, especially the small animal producers, I have to say. But I think what came out of this, a bonus, is people realized two things: One, the farmers are essential, right? And then they started to realize their food supply was really around them. The farmer that was putting the food in the grocery store just lived down the street, or in their area, right? And so then we started to see these new products -- programs come out that our farmers could participate in, like the USDA Farmers to Family, you know, Food Box program. You know, there was programs that were already being developed, like Market Maker, which is an online -- it sort of matches up growers with restaurants and people because there was, all of a sudden, this year, there was a resurgence of two things: One, you know, "Maybe I need to be responsible for my own food. I think I need to grow something in my backyard." Or "Okay, my backyard's just a cement slab, how do I do that?" Right? And that's when the USDA Urban Ag Toolkit really did come in handy. But the second thing is, like, there's this new resurgence in preserving food, right? So people all of a sudden wanted to learn how to can. All the millennials wanted to learn how to can. [laughs] And I'm like, "Oh, my God. I got rid of my Ball jars, like, years ago." [laughs] But no, so I think what happened is now people wanted to buy a carton of peaches or a -- and so they would go on to the Market Maker and they would find out who, well, who could get it? Can they ship it? Blah, blah, blah. And so that was really great. The Community Supported Ag, CSAs, really came through. They did the touchless deliveries to folks, or they would meet at their county government center and do distributions out to people. So that was good. You know, the farmers markets, all my Homegrown by Heroes people, I'm so proud of them, and the stories just keep -- are so, you know, we're just [inaudible] to hear about what had had some happen this past year. But you know, some of the farmers markets were open, some weren't. Some people, they had built clientele up at the farmers markets, and they did touchless deliveries to them. You know, and then also you have people that are growing, right? They're still growing. And they're still gleaning. They're still taking food to the food banks and feeding folks. And then, you know, we saw some more community gardens come up because, you know, we were -- we have an ag in a classroom and we had all these gardens at the schools, but the schools weren't in session. So we saw a lot of people needing to get outside, get some exercise, get some fresh air before they went stir crazy, and they started developing these community gardens. And we've actually -- we got a huge donation of seed from Patriot Seed Company. I'll give them a plug. And we've been sending seeds out to people to start community gardens. So it's been really interesting. You know, there has been some problems with those that are in animal production getting their animals processed to sell. And I think that's going to be ongoing for a while. So we're looking at solutions to help in that arena because I think -- or God hopes, you know -- nothing like this ever happens again, but it's been a huge wakeup call on a lot of different levels for folks. And so I think we're going to see changes moving forward, you know, not just with a virtual component to every conference that we have, but I think there's going to be changes, and people are taking their food seriously. They're valuing it more. I think we're going to see a decrease in waste. I think we're going to see more preservation of the foods. I think we are going to see more people growing out of their backyards and sharing. You know, you can only process so many bushels of tomatoes, right, and then you have to give it away to your neighbors. But you know, we're -- and that brings back a sense of community, which, again, always seems to come around food and meals, you know? And it always has. So I hope that answers your question. >> Margo Hale: Yes, thank you so much. And as a longtime canner, yes, I had trouble finding canning supplies this summer. And yes, as a livestock producer, getting my animals processed this year has been a challenge as well. But you know, like you, we saw just our farmers all across the country doing innovative things, and you know, working really hard to get their product to the customers, and directly to the customers. So, you know, while it has been a huge challenge, there's been some great opportunities for our producers all across the country with folks really interested in getting that local food directly from their farmers. So -- >> Jeanette Lombardo: One thing I would add, Margo, is that -- >> Margo Hale: -- yeah? >> Jeanette Lombardo: -- a normal distribution systems, you know, farmer picks -- it takes about 10 days or so, eight to -- you know, to get from the farm to the grocery shelf to the consumer. You do lose some nutritional value. When you do grow locally, you can keep the product, whatever it is, on the trees, or in the ground, until it's more ripe. And it can be delivered immediately. They can eat it the same day that it's picked. So there's this -- there's an appreciation for that. And if you're like a foodie, that's really, you know, important to you. And so I do think these relationships that have been developed during this pandemic with our growers is going to continue forward. >> Margo Hale: Yeah, absolutely. All right, Sarah, you want to share some of the impacts of COVID and how you've seen it impact your urban production or others that you work with? >> Sarah Dachos: Sure, yeah. I mean, some of the same things that Jeanette talked about of course happened in this micro urban space as well. And there were, you know, lots of concerns on, how are we going to make sure needy people are fed, and just, in general, people have access to food? There was a lot of work in D.C. There was so much collaboration that occurred with folks in the city who deliver food. And I don't mean like -- yes, of course, I mean places like the [inaudible] Food Bank, but I also mean just grocery stores and farmers markets. I mean, for all people. And organizations, say, in Virginia or Maryland, where most of our -- well, not -- actually, that's not where most of our food comes from, but a great deal of our food comes from Virginia and Maryland. And how to make that work where, you know, these new pathways had to be created because there was so much disruption because of COVID. So my observation with the Food Policy Council and working with the local farmers was that was essential, and it happened immediately. And the only thing I'll tell you is that the people who instigated that in Washington, D.C. happened to be veterans. Not because they were veterans, but probably because they were veterans, right, because of that go-to attitude that veterans have. They were the ones who led the charge on some of this great work that was forged in the -- we call it the DMV, not Department of Motor Vehicles, but D.C., Maryland, Virginia -- to make sure that people were fed. It was really great to watch. And then in terms of the composting situation, so some composters -- we have three other -- so my organization has been started and is owned by a veteran, and we have two other composting organizations in D.C. that are also owned and started by veterans. And those two composting organizations actually had a boost in business because everybody was at home. People weren't going to restaurants, and they had more food waste. So, I mean, they couldn't deal with the demand of all the people who needed -- because they were -- sorry, they are personal home pickup types of composting companies. They come to your house. They take the bucket. They give you a clean bucket, and then they come back a week later and take your next bucket. And they were, you know, two buckets, three buckets instead of just one bucket kind of situation, and just exploding with customers. It was really great for their business. Our business, on the other hand, [blows raspberry] went down because we work with -- we don't work with households. We work with restaurants. We work with universities. We work with hospitals. Well, hospitals, we're still fine, unfortunately. But universities, restaurants, cafes, et cetera, et cetera, they're all out of business. So we had a grant from the D.C. government to install a machine and help this cafe to start their own composting. It was attached actually to the very first farm I ever worked at. I worked at this farm for a year, right in the city, and it was -- the cafe was attached to that farm. So I even knew all the folks and were able to facilitate all this work to be done, but rut-roh, the cafe wasn't open, so there wasn't any compost. Yeah. So that was -- you know, I mean, the D.C. government obviously understood. And now we're back on track because, you know, D.C. government has allowed restaurants to open and so there is -- there is food waste now, but it's certainly not as much food waste as we had imagined and was needed for this composting machine. Our machines are not small. They need a lot of food waste. So that has been very challenging for us. And I mean, just like everybody else, and we're adjusting and figuring out new ways to serve the community, but it took some innovation. >> Margo Hale: Yeah, I think we've all had to have a lot of innovation this year. [laughs] It's caused us to be very, very creative. So, Sean, I know you shared how much food that you guys have donated from your farm this year due to COVID and really, you know, focusing on feeding people, but I would love for you to just share, you know, the impacts that you've seen COVID have on your farm and your production, maybe some of your markets, and some of the programming that your organization does. >> Sean Dalgarn: Absolutely. COVID has definitely been a big hurdle, but we're vets. We know how to adjust and make do. And so that's exactly what we did. Luckily, we have a really good team at Growing Veterans that's very malleable and flexible, and we decided to take advantage of some of these virtual opportunities, whether it's boosting our presence on YouTube, or showing skills-based videos on how to plant seed, harvest, et cetera, being available and being -- yeah, being available has been the biggest thing for us. You know, since we have donated so much food, unfortunately, on the flip side, our market's kind of dried up. Normally, we would sell the bulk of our produce to a local resort, Semiahmoo Resort, which is a beautiful place, and they have terrific food that they would utilize our produce to create. So that, poof, is gone. What are we going to do? Well, we said, "We have to figure something out. COVID-19 is now, you know, taking front and center of everybody's priorities. And for us, a large portion of our income is through grants." And so we decided to shift, you know, even more of our production towards feeding the community. We've already historically been, you know, donating food, but this year we decided to donate pretty much everything we grew, and so that made us very palatable for some of these grant opportunities, community grants, so on, and so forth. But yeah, we've taken a 50% hit in private donorship, and business donors, and so on, and so forth. And you know, for us, it's adapt and overcome. That's just the way it has to be. There's no -- failure is not an option. And like I said, the people are the number-one priority when it comes to our mission. And whether that's the community, whether that's the veterans, we have taken this as an opportunity to kind of really do a gut check as to what is important to us, and that was feeding the people. So we've diverted, you know, a lot of our programming to, you know, meet that need and to also be able to connect with people because that's ultimately our goal. So we do -- we had a what we called a Friday Morning Coffee Check-In, where I would do an hour-long check-in with everybody via Zoom. We'd put it out. It's an open door to anybody that wanted to participate. They would drop in. I would just check in and say, "Hey, how are you doing? What are some of the issues that you're facing in your community?" We've had people from all over the country chime in and share and connect, and I think the biggest thing for people, you know, and I keep coming back to isolation because that is ultimately what, you know, is the most deadly as far as I'm concerned, especially within the veteran community. You know, to be able to reach out to people, to show them that we still are there for them -- and we still have people come out to the farm. You know, we do have to maintain the guidelines and protocols, Washington State, COVID-19, pandemic stuff, but we've still had reoccurring veterans and, you know, local volunteers, and so on, and so forth come out because they need to get involved with something. And so we've been able to continue. We haven't really missed a beat. We didn't really shut down anything. We still have VA Work Studies. We still have Veteran Conservation Corps interns. But yeah, it has been a challenge. And so this year, we've, you know, really decided, "Hey, it's all about the people. Let's get the food out to the people. If we can recoup some of that money through grants and donorship, you know, that's the only real option that we have." And so we've been pursuing that, and it's really forced me to kind of diversify my skillset because now I have to go out into the world and convince people that they need to invest in us and the veterans that -- you know, that come through our doors, and the community as well. So an investment in Growing Veterans is an investment in the community, and it's an investment in feeding the community. So that's been kind of the shift that we've had to make. It's been difficult, but it's not above or beyond anything that we're capable of, and you know, we're constantly evolving, and that's kind of just been our motto since COVID kicked off. >> Margo Hale: Thank you, Sean. Well, this has been just an amazing discussion so far, and we're kind of nearing the end of our time. So I'm going to wrap a couple of questions up into my last question for our panelists. And Jeanette, I'll probably start back over with you. And the question is, one, what advice would you give to veterans who are interested in, you know, in urban farming or getting connected to agriculture? And then the second part of that is, how can the listeners of this, how can they connect with your organization or, you know, for Sarah and Sean, your businesses, and those resources? I know we've mentioned a lot of resources and a lot of things that we hope veterans connect to. So if you just kind of share what you're kind of parting advice is for those who are interested in pursuing agriculture, and then share those resources, how they can connect with you. That would be great. So, Jeanette, I'll start with you. >> Jeanette Lombardo: Since this panel is about urban agriculture, I think I'm going to focus on advice for that. I would strongly support it. You know, we have a lot of veterans in the area. I think there's three things urban agriculture does, is it provides access to food, good, nutritious food, it helps with the poverty that we see in inner cities, and it also -- it -- when you put in a community garden or you put in a garden, a lot of times, you teach people how to -- they have to learn how to cook with basic ingredients again, and you teach them about nutrition. And there's lots of resources available, master gardeners. There's your county extension offices that can help you. And you have to realize, you don't have to be everything all at once. It's you take baby steps and it -- because otherwise it's too overwhelming, right? And you grow into it. And I think, you know, urban agriculture fulfills a lot of needs. There are food deserts. And that doesn't mean there's no feed. It just means that you have to go shop at the local corner store that may not sell fresh fruits and vegetables and produce. So I think, to look at that, you know, the food insecurity, you know, the retired folks, even, they love to grow in their backyards, have that abundance. There's a pride in that product that you've produced, right? And to share it with your neighbors and the people down the street, and again, connecting our communities. And I think there are a lot of small spaces in towns and land available if you look. There is the rooftops. There's places in between buildings. There's, you know, these edible landscapes that are created out of people's backyards and herb gardens. There's under utility poles, under -- even under our big freeways we have out here. And you know, you may have to get together with a few folks to figure out all of the rules and regulations, but I think the reward that comes from it is very beneficial. And so I think [inaudible] can connect with Farmer Veteran on this. You know, we, our phone number, I'll give you, is 503-756-1395. I will gladly take your calls. Our website is farmvetco.org. You know, you can contact us there. There's a Support email that can, you know, go there. We're on all the social media platforms. Or you can contact one of our chapters. But yeah, we'll be glad to help anyone who's ready to start this journey. We have a couple of our staff that are actually experts in the whole farm-to-fork local food movement and regenerative agriculture that they would just really love to give you the resources to do your research and get going. >> Margo Hale: Yes, thank you so much, Jeanette. All right, Sarah, I'll go to you next. >> Sarah Dachos: Okay, great. Jeanette, that reminded me, I started as a master gardener, and she's totally right. One, she's right that don't do everything at once because there's so much to do and it's going to overwhelm you. But a master gardener class is really a great way to dive in. I loved it. So I would say that the things that I really think that you need to think about if you're going to start farming are some of the, like, unsexy aspects of farming. So, a business plan. I know I mentioned a business plan earlier in the panel. That is -- and Farmer Veteran Coalition can help you with that, by the way, and Small Business Administration. I mean, there's lots of resources out there for you, but Farmer Veteran Coalition's a really great resource for that. It's not fun. It's tiresome. It makes my head ache just thinking about it. But it's really important because at the end of the day, you need to survive. And it's a business. Farming is a business. No matter what it is. My beekeeping, it was a business. It is a business still. Second thing, I would say, is learn how to be an advocate. Veterans have a really hard time being advocates because when you're active duty military, you're not allowed to be an advocate so you kind of hold on to that. It took me a long time to realize that I could advocate for what I thought was important. And like, most recently, with the D.C. Zero Waste Omnibus Bill that just was passed, I put language in that bill. There's language that I wrote in that bill. And if you had told me I was going to do that 10 years ago, I would have thought you were crazy. But if you want something to make your operation safer, better, you are a civilian. It is your absolute right to contact your council member. It is your absolute right to contact your congressman. It is your absolute right to testify. In fact, when I was with Farmer Veteran Coalition, we testified in front of Congress twice because we have things to say to inform farmer veterans. And you have things to say about your operation. So your ideas matter, and you should -- if you have time. I know you have a long list of things to do as a farmer, so if you have time, add that one to it. It's important because it really affects policy, and it affects your life. And then the last thing I would say is about networking. And I know I've brought up networking before, but I just can't stress enough how important that is. And I'll give you an example. I'm on this composting network that's all across the United States. There is not one dumb question that's asked. There is always somebody who is out there to give you a slice of their time and their advice to answer your question. I've learned so much by being on this listserv. So get on these listservs, and get on these -- connect with people, and that's really going to be helpful, is to connect with people because as a wise farmer once told me when I said, "Wow, when did you feel like you really knew what you were doing? You've been farming for 20 years." And their response to me was, "No, I've only farmed 20 times." Everybody feels like they have something to learn and they have advice to give, and it's your role to take that advice and then, someday, you're going to be giving the advice as well. And the only thing -- the only last thing I will say is I have to do a shoutout to Farmer Veteran Coalition again because even though this happened, I had nothing to do with it, I didn't write the grant, and I joined Loop Closing, afterwards, we did receive a grant from Farmer Veteran Coalition. So I suggest to all of you, no matter where are you in your stage of farming, apply for that Farmer Veteran Coalition fellowship grant. They give out a lot of money. They're very thoughtful about supporting people. They support -- I was never -- I don't know all the details. I was never involved in the selection process, but seeing the results, they select people from every walk of farming life. So you have a good chance of getting it if you apply for it. And then there's other fellowships as well that you can get from the Young Farmers Coalition has one as well. They do a collaboration with Chipotle. I always mispronounce it, but you know that restaurant [laughs] that serves burritos and tacos. But yeah, so get -- and Farmer Veteran Coalition's fellowship is open now, so get in there and get on it. That's my advice. >> Margo Hale: Thank you, Sarah, very good advice. All right, Sean, if you'll share with us your advice, and then how folks can connect with you. >> Sean Dalgarn: Yeah, first off, I'll just say, if you're interested in getting involved with Growing Veterans or contacting us, please go to www.growingveterans.org. Follow us on Instagram. We keep that constantly updated. You can be front and center in just about everything that we do on the day to day if you follow us on our social media, Facebook, so on, and so forth. I can speak to the nonprofit side of the house because I do get a lot of phone calls, and I know that there's a lot of interest for budding farmers that are interested in doing something very similar to what we're doing. All over the country I get calls about this. So my advice to you would be start small, have a focused clear definitive mission, and then grow with a purpose. And what I mean by that is, you know, think about the mission that you are attempting to take on, and break that down, and see, you know, how convoluted can it get? Because things can get really sticky when you start -- when you have a very broad mission. So really focus your intent, and grow from there. And because you can always grow from there. So that's my biggest piece of advice. It's very simple. It sounds very simplistic, but it's also been something that's been really huge, and is something that I've had to learn over the years, and I think it'll serve you well. Another aspect to it is ask for help. You have to ask for help. You have to be willing to ask for help. I know as veterans, and I know we like to just kind of pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and just go for it, and if we can't do it, then there's no -- then it can't be done. So yeah, ask for help. You know, there's organizations, you know, obviously, Farmer Veteran Coalition. I like to think of them as like the overarching umbrella for veteran farmers, you know, in the nation. I've sent so many people their direction, you know, that whether they're interested in farming or they're interested in raising cattle, and so on, and so forth, they have a myriad of opportunities for you to get connected and find the resources that you need, and plug you into people that are doing exactly what you're interested in. So really lean on these resources that exist, do your research, and ask for help because people are more than happy to help you. I know I am, and I know these folks are. So thank you so much for having me, and yeah, please check us out, growingveterans.org. >> Margo Hale: Sean, that is some really, really great advice. I mean, starting small, whether that's a nonprofit or a farm, I mean, that's the advice I give farmers all the time. Start small, you know, make small mistakes before you make big mistakes. So start small, and then you can grow from there. And then asking for help. That is so true, and there are so many wonderful resources, as we've shared today. And I do want to give my organization a plug, NCAT, and our ATTRA program. If you go to our website, which is www.ATTRA.org, we are an information service for farmers. And so we have all aspects of agriculture covered, from soils, urban agriculture, livestock, marketing, the whole gamut. We have resources and we have technical specialists who are available to help answer questions and get you connected to resources. So if you are interested in farming, please check us out. And as I mentioned, you can find links there to our Armed to Farm program as well if you're interested. And hopefully, once COVID gets past us a little bit, we'll be able to ramp up our Armed to Farm trainings again. And we have several of those planned all across the country, including Urban Armed to Farm training. So, you know, our weeklong training program that's specifically focused on urban agriculture. So we have a few of those in the works as well. So please check us out and get connected. Once again, panelists, thank you so much. I so enjoyed this, getting to hear from you three, and you guys sharing your experiences and all of the wonderful work that you are doing, and the resources that you have for our veterans all across the country. So just thank you so much, and I hope you, our listeners, have enjoyed this session. >> Karen Lloyd: Wow, wow, wow, I hope you enjoyed this panel as much as I did. We have been experienced the same Internet issues that the whole East Coast has been experienced, so thank you for hanging around and choosing to listen to us, even if you didn't get a chance to see all the video. A big thank you to Margo, Sean, Sarah, and Jeanette for helping us understand what urban farming is all about. My takeaway from this discussion is that it's not as hard as you might have imagined to farm in an urban setting, become a beekeeper, work with compost, or support community based agriculture organizations. The choices are vast, and as we heard, the programs that support veterans are really paying off. In addition to responses to your question, we've posted the web addresses for these organizations in the comments section. Please visit them for more information. As a reminder, the Veterans History Project is seeking all U.S. military veterans' stories. The project is every veterans opportunity to leave their imprint, to enrich the historical record. By participating, they ensure that history reflects their story and how their service impacted their life. Veterans' stories broaden and deepen our collective understanding of our shared history. If you are a veteran or know one, please visit loc.gov/vets to download a field kit so you can have all the instructions and required forms to add [inaudible] story to our archive. Our website also has a searchable veterans database, a 15-minute instructional video, resources for researchers, educators, students, and scouts, exhibits, and more. Again, thank you for joining us for "Veteran Grown: Urban Farming." Take care, and stay safe.