>> Janna Deitz: Welcome to Conversations on the Future of Democracy, a series sponsored by the John W. Kluge Center at the Library of Congress. I'm Janna Deitz. I direct outreach and partnership for the Kluge Center. Today it is my pleasure to introduce Melvin Rogers and Jack Turner, authors of the newly released book, African American Political Thought: a collected history. Dr. Rogers is a political theorist at Brown University. He has written The Undiscovered Dewey: religion, morality, and ethos of democracy; and he was a distinguished visiting scholar here at the Kluge Center, where he completed this book project. Also joining us today is Jack Turner of the University of Washington, co-editor of this new volume. Dr. Turner is a political scientist with specialties in race, political thought, and intellectual history. His works include Awakening to Race: individuals and social consciousness in America. We're excited to discuss their new book today, a collection of 30 influential thinkers who shaped African American political thought, ranging from Phillis Wheatley to Cornel West. So again, welcome and let's get started. At the Library, we enjoy hearing about the journey books take to reach their readers. Melvin and Jack, how did this project come about? >> Jack Turner: Well, the project really sort of grew out of our friendship. We were both undergraduates at Amherst College in the mid- to late 1990s. We actually met in a class on philosophy, race, and racism taught by one of our contributors Robert Gooding-Williams, who was a important teacher to both of us. And we met in that class. That really sort of started a really important intellectual friendship between us. We love talking about the history of political thought. We love especially talking about history of American philosophy. And over time you know, as our friendship grew, we really learned to love talking about African American political thought between us. And eventually it occurred to us that one thing that was sort of missing in our field of political science, sort of a survey of this tradition and what it meant. Because we sensed it was really integral, but we wanted to try to get a full and clear picture of it. And so we started to work on this project together. >> Janna Deitz: Melvin, would you like to add? >> Melvin Rogers: No, I actually think that's spot-on. I think that's spot-on. Yes. >> Janna Deitz: Let's turn our attention to the significance of the title of this work. You used the phrase "collected history." And that's approach that you use for a particular reason, as a methodology. Can you explain a little bit about why you used that, and what it can teach us about the field of African American political thought? >> Melvin Rogers: Sure, I'll be delighted to say a word about that. I should also thank you on behalf of Chip and myself and Library of Congress for hosting this. We appreciate it a great deal. So the collected history approach, and the reason why we sort of used that language is that we wanted to get readers to focus on the sort of distinctiveness of the individual lives of the African American thinkers that we -- that we survey. And we wanted to use the book as an opportunity to pull out for the readers the distinctive philosophical -- political philosophical contributions that they make to our moral and political thinking. But even as you know -- even as we sort of deployed the language of collective history to sort of focus on these individual lives, we also try to say in the introduction, and throughout the book, through the various contributors, that all of these figures are grappling with and are confronting with racial disregard, and they're confronting white supremacy. And that that actually sort of binds them together historically across -- across time. And I think the last point I would make on this sort of collected history approach is that look, there's a lot of philosophical traditions out there that our discipline has paid a lot of attention to, among which includes, let's say for example the social contract tradition, which is a tradition out of the 17th, 18th century that focuses on you know, what are the rules and criteria for building a political society? But in focusing on things like that, one of the things we have missed are a set of different kinds of questions. You know, what does it mean to live a good life under conditions of domination? What does it mean to engage in a protest and contestation in a society in which you are devalued and not recognized as an equal? And so part of what this book does through the language of a collected history is put those questions back on the -- back on the table, or on the table in a significant way for our profession for the first time. [ Multiple Speakers ] >> Jack Turner: The indefinite article at the front does a lot of work. You know, when we say "a" collected history, we're not saying that this is "the" collected history. We're saying this is a provocation to the study of this tradition. And we hope that you know, our peers and you know, our students eventually sort of put up their own sort of rival visions of what this tradition means. And so this book, we hope it'll have shelf life, but we also see it as a conversation-starter. >> Melvin Rogers: Yes. >> Janna Deitz: The individuals that you feature in this volume span disciplines, and span a great deal of time. And there are still some very consistent themes that run across these essays. And one of those themes is that of a just society. The term "social justice" for example features prominently in current policy discussions and public discourse at the moment. How can we better understand the meaning of a just society by applying concepts from African American political thought? Are there certain individuals in this book that can deepen our understanding of that concept, and in fact even challenge that? >> Melvin Rogers: So I mean this is a very -- you know, this is a big question. And in some sense one wants to journey through the book to get the sort of full vision of what a just society looks like on the view of these different thinkers. But perhaps -- you know, perhaps I would take us through a couple of -- a couple of figures, right? So if we think about -- let's think about 19th century thinkers. Let's think about David Walker, Martin Delany, and Frederick Douglass, all of whom are taken up in this book. And I'll say a word about each. So David Walker is the basis for Chapter 2, the chapter that I wrote. And part of what Walker is doing in the 19th century, he wrote an important pamphlet in 1829. They revised it in 1830. And part of what Walker is doing in that extraordinary document called Appeal to the Colored Citizens of the World, is trying to get his readers to see that in order for one to enjoy freedom, it requires you not to be at the arbitrary mercy of your fellows. Whether the fellows that actually have you in chains in the South, or those who look on in contempt and disgust in the North. And we're in the 19th century. And so part of what he wanted to insist on is that freedom is really about not being at the arbitrary mercy of your fellows, not being dominated. But then it raises a question. OK well, if it's about not being dominated, then that's a hallmark of what a just society is about. Well, how do you achieve it? And so Martin Delany, the famous Black abolitionist writing in the 1850s, this is the chapter written by the political philosopher Robert Gooding-Williams. And in that chapter, Delany insists that to not be at the arbitrary mercy of another really requires you to have a share in political society. This is what he called in his work, the sovereign principle. It means that you are able to participate and give a direction to your social life, and to the community to which you belong. And I think it's partly Frederick Douglass -- we have a wonderful chapter on Frederick Douglass from Sharon Krause, a political theorist here at Brown University. And part of what Douglass then says is that if freedom is about avoiding domination, if it's about having a share in political life, then what that really means is that freedom is not merely about individual will or initiative. It's also about belonging to a community that has put in place material and social resources. That is to say, a community that actually supports you. So on this account, to live in a just society involves not being at the arbitrary mercy of another, sharing in the direction of the political community, and feeling that one can depend on the social supports of that community. >> Janna Deitz: Jack, would you like to add anything there? >> Jack Turner: Well, I mean that was a masterful application by Melvin. And yes, these themes of domination and of freedom, and of what the meaning of freedom is, and one of the things I think that we really emphasize in introduction is that the definitions of freedom coming out of the African American tradition of political thought are very distinct from those coming out of the Euro-American tradition. These conceptions of freedom have a more communal focus. They have a much more focus on activity. They have more of a focus on insurgency and movement, and a way that freedom is actually a process of transformation, and not a static state. So one of the things that we want to you know, really emphasize with this volume is that the ideas coming out of the African American political tradition, they're not just variations of Euro-American traditions. They are complete reconfigurations and distinct contributions that I think that we neglect to our impoverishment and some times even to our peril. >> Janna Deitz: Jack, one of those themes also is that of relationality, and how that [inaudible] with equality. Could you explain a little more about that for example? >> Jack Turner: Yes. The theme of relationality, it sort of really begins to emerge -- I think it covers many different chapters. But I think it starts really more strongly in Chapter 8, a chapter on Anna Julia Cooper by Carol Wayne White, where she talks about Cooper's radical relationality, and the way in which she can see individual freedom is always being nested within interrelationship. And that we could not attend to individual freedom without also attending to the relational whole of society. And so she talked about this interdependence, this ongoing interdependence between the one and the all. And she can see social and political progress as a way of bringing the one and the all into equilibrium. And we see this also continued I think in a chapter that I wrote on Audre Lorde, whose politics and difference is very much nested within an idea of relational equality. Equality not as a distribution of goods, but equalities in form of social relationship. And the other thing I think you really get within the African American tradition, especially in contrast to the social contract tradition that Melvin referred to earlier -- social contractarianism. You know, it tends to focus on an ontology of individuals who are contractually related to each other. And if they all get what they are due, then society is going to be stable and just. I think the African American tradition has a different emphasis. The emphasis is on the way in which we are in an ongoing relationship [inaudible] that constantly has to be tended to, that are constantly undergoing transformation. And that unless we attend to this relational component of democratic life, then our society is going to be more characterized by indifference and neglect, and it won't have -- now this is a theme that Melvin emphasizes a lot -- the proper relationships of care that are necessary to keep a democratic community going. >> Janna Deitz: I'm really struck by -- >> Jack Turner: I just want to add that emphasis on relationality, it's something that [inaudible] to the African American tradition, but I really want to -- I think it's important to emphasize it's a distinctively Black feminist contribution. And so, I think in that Black feminist contribution is really crucial to the configuration of the entire tradition. >> Janna Deitz: When you think about the concept of care which you just mentioned with regard to the relationality and connection and community, I'm really curious to get your thoughts on where you think the concept of trust fits in. Right now, we're at a moment where we have lack of trust in our governmental institutions, our processes, trust within -- you know, between each of us within our larger community. So could you weigh in on where that might fit in as well? >> Melvin Rogers: So I mean, this is a very interesting question because in some sense -- I think Chip would agree with this -- in some sense, the entirety of the tradition, whether explicitly or implicitly, is grappling with a trust deficit, right? I mean it is, right -- - we have a condition of a domination of disregard and it is a -- it is a context in which Black people have good reason not to sort of trust political society and their fellows at all. But one of the things that I think cuts through all of these essays in different form is precisely how central trust is to the health of a democratic society. And that there are some of us that are able to take it for granted because they are already rightly positioned. And there are others of us that can't. But part of what the tradition wants to insist is that it is at the heart of a proper functioning democratic society, and the way you get the trust right, is through building it through the processes of relationality that Chip had already outlined, or has already outlined. And I should say the reason why one of the things is quite significant about this is that for the African American thinkers, and for the tradition, they take it as settled that democracy is about managing a shared life. They take it as settled. And because they take that as settled, there is no way to pull apart the managing of a shared life with a focus on cultivating trust relationships. And that's a very different kind of analysis that I think you get in a sort of contractual model, because even if there's a deficit of trust, the thought is that the legal institutions will intervene to ensure that people can put themselves in the right way towards you in the context of a local contractual relationship. They're very different. Very different model in the context of African American political thought. >> Jack Turner: Yes, I think the trust issue comes up especially in Danielle Allen's chapter on Ralph Ellison. One of the things that she's really focusing on is that democratic community as she conceives of it, it always involves sacrifice. Sacrifice by some member of the community on behalf of other members of the community, OK? So the example that she gives is say when the fed raises interest rates in order to keep inflation under control, usually the consequence of that is going to be a rise in unemployment. And usually a rise in unemployment is always going to hit Black and brown communities before it hits white communities. Now she concedes that sometimes this is necessary in order for -- in order to manage a contemporary community, that things like managed inflation are legitimate policy questions. For Allen though, and for Allen's vision of Ellison, the question is what do you do for those who bear the sacrifice? How do you compensate those who bear the sacrifice? How do you take care of those political remainders? And her thesis is that when one portion of the community, like African Americans have been asked to bear a disproportionate share of sacrifice, that generates mistrust. And then that mistrust destabilizes equality. The other place -- I mean, I think the trust issue also comes up in Lorde somewhat. Because there's on one hand the trust issue that happens within the larger political community. But part of what Black politics is about, it's about a practice of coalition. It's about a practice of coalitional movement for transformation. And one question, how do you build trust within a coalition? Because as someone -- you know, Bernice Johnson Reagon a very important Black feminist theorist, you know emphasizes that building coalition, it's a painful process. And building the trust that is necessary in coalition, it takes work and it takes vulnerability. And as a result of that -- but you need trust within coalition, in order for coalitions to be effective. So I think the trust issue, it comes up within the larger question of Black folks' relationship to the white -- the white community. But it also is an issue within the Black community, especially between say between Black men and Black women. Between Black lesbians, Black gay men and straight Black people. That there are issues -- internal issues of trust that also have to be addressed in order to act effectively in the political sphere. >> Melvin Rogers: I mean, one of the things, if I can get in on this -- I mean, one of the things that's [inaudible] here is that as much as we see Ellison and we see Lorde meditating on the issue of trust you know, we should not be lead to believe that all African American thinkers in this volume are in agreement about whether or not the American polity broadly speaking, is up to the task of fulfilling the demand that trust places on us. So for example, if you think about Chapter 26, this is a chapter on Stokely Carmichael, who is an amazing thinker in his own right and an activist, the sort of chairperson of SNCC, Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee. And of course this chapter is written by Brandon Terry. And part of what we come to see, and focusing on Carmichael, is that Carmichael is asking African Americans in his endorsement of Black power to think about what it means for us to attend to our own communities. Precisely because there is an absence of trust, and there is no good reason to believe, given all the history that Black people have experienced, there's no good reason to believe that the American polity can be shamed into sort of recognizing the demands that trust places on them, and the demand that trust places on any society. And so Carmichael in some sense being extremely suspicious and skeptical that his white counterparts are up to the task, encourages a kind of participatory politics, a kind of localism, in which Black folks will attend to their own communities, and build trust within, right? It's a form of trust that being built within over [inaudible] right? Acknowledgement that we actually cannot get on with trusting our white counterparts. >> Janna Deitz: Can I ask a question about maybe how elected and appointed representation fits in with trust? Do you feel that there's a role? We've seen so many new firsts just in the past few years, certainly with Kamala Harris becoming the first vice-president; African American, Asian American background. So again, is this -- does this play a role in building trust? Being able to see those in positions of political power that have the shared experience? >> Jack Turner: Huge question. I mean if you look at say Paul Taylor's chapter on Du Bois who you know, in some ways is the greatest you know, thinker in the African American tradition. One thing that Du Bois really emphasized was the need for leaders to be accountable to their constituency, and their need to respond to criticism. And so the issue of leadership has been you know, a huge question in the history of African American politics. One of the themes that I think sort of comes out of the tradition is that it's not the election of leadership itself that's important. It's not the election of "one of us," that's important. It's the ongoing relationship that happens afterwards. And the relationship of criticism, of responsiveness, and of trust. And that is an ongoing work. It's not something that occurs only at election. >> Melvin Rogers: I think that you know -- I mean, Chip hits it. I mean you hit it right on the head there. I think the symbolic representation is of little significance. I don't want to say it's insignificant. But it's of little significance if it is not bound to a kind of politics that directs itself to showing care and concern for Black folks. So someone like you know, Bayard Rustin you know, this Chapter 19, written by George Shulman, Bayard Rustin you know, we're in the 1960s. The great strategist -- one of the great strategists of the civil rights movement. And then in 1965 he makes a shift from insisting on protesting to a focus on coalition-building, trying to sort of insinuate oneself into party-building. And sort of de-emphasizing racial divisions, and playing up class commonality. But even for all of his emphases on party building ultimately, Black representation is meaningless if it's not tied to the thing for which those representatives or why they are -- right? Why they are sent to serve in the first place. And for him, that was about a kind of racial equality. It was a kind of -- it was about a kind of economic justice. And those things will always have to be tested and measured across time. >> Jack Turner: And one thing I would add to that, I think the Bayard Rustin chapter which is also nested in there with chapters you know, on King and on Carmichael, is I think one thing especially emerges from those chapter is sort of a concept that you know, there's a political -- there's a political division of labor. That protests and politics are things that work in tandem with each other. That elected officials, they actually need protests in order to create the popular pressure that allows them -- that creates openings within their institutions to take bold action. And so -- I think one thing that emerges from the volume is that it's not an either/or model. It is rather a both/and model, where we are both creating popular pressure through coalitional action in the streets, and at the same time, taking opportunities to act within institutions when those opportunities are available, and also expanding the space and possibilities within those institutions as a result. So it's sort of an ongoing call and response between institutional politics and street democratic politics. >> Janna Deitz: Another strength of this book that I was also struck by, was that -- just the variety of the backgrounds from which these individuals are represented. So that we have folks that are coming from poetry, from literature, from philosophy, from other forms of activism and expression. And I would be interested to know if there are additional areas where you think we see thought leaders that could also influence African and political thought currently? >> Jack Turner: I mean, I think one thing that we did as we sort of conceptualized the volume, we wanted there to be a diversity of genre. And actually that's part of the claims of the book, that African American political thought has taken a multiplicity of genres ranging from yes, you have some philosophical treatises. But you also have political pamphlets, autobiographies, sermons, satires, Supreme Court opinions. You know, one thing I wish that you know we had done is we also -- I wish we had more incorporated music. So for example, having a chapter on someone like Billie Holiday or Public Enemy who have tremendous political significance in their work. But I think that we still do get that diversity of genre when we have someone like you know, the book is dedicated to our former teacher, Jeff Ferguson who taught us at Amherst College in the late 1990s. And his chapter on George Schuyler, who's mostly known as sort of a political -- Black conservative political commentator from the mid-20th century. It's really focused on his satirical work, in a book called Black No More. And what Ferguson is dealing with is, how can the American sort of racial psychosis be best approached through the genre of comedy? Through the genre of -- well, tragicomedy if you will. That is it possible that the genre of comedy and tragicomedy can better disclose the absurdity of the American racial situation, than more earnest forms of address can do so? And so that focus on diversity of genre is actually one of sort of the main highlights of the book. >> Melvin Rogers: Yes, I mean I think it's quite important. You know, the title of the book is African American Political Thought: a collected history. And immediately when you have the terms "political thought," you immediately have in your mind a certain kind of thing that you will encounter. And one of the important features of this book, and this is part of what Chip is emphasizing here, that we wanted to press, is the ways in which what counts as political thought from a perceptive of African Americans, is a sort of diverse and heterogeneous thing. And this is because in a society in which you do not enjoy equal standing, and in which you're devalued, you now have to find the various spaces, whatever those spaces are, and whatever the medium turns out to be, in order to grapple with that condition. Amiri Baraka who's not in the book you know, famously said -- he was talking about African American music -- and he says that the "Negroes' music," it must be understood, issued from the "Negroes'" social environment. One might say that everything in some sense that has been penned by African Americans has issued from that social condition. And in issuing from that social condition, it always finds itself trying to figure out, trying to make sense just how is it the case that a society that claims to be democratic is so complicit in these forms of the various practices of domination and violence that are committed against Black people. And so now the music, the literature, the art, the philosophy properly speaking, all bears that mark. And to the extent that it all bears that mark, it all can be subject for political thought. >> Janna Deitz: There are so many interesting issues raised in this collection. Is there -- I know this can be sometimes a difficult question to answer, but is there a particular take-away, or something that you want the readers to know when they finish going through this collection of 30 essays and their range? >> Jack Turner: I don't think there's a substantive take-away. But I think that you know, the first thing that I think Melvin and I really want in the book is, we want the book to help send readers back to the primary text. And to read them in a new light through a new set of theoretical lenses that this book has introduced. And help them see things that are there that they may not have seen before. We also really hope that it's a book that's assigned. And if you'll excuse the plug, it's very reasonably priced at $35, which we hope can -- be hopeful and enable teachers to use it in their classrooms. So that undergraduate students, graduate students, even high school students can get a sense of what's at stake, and what the inner life of this tradition is, so that they can sort of develop a taste for it and yearn to learn more. >> Janna Deitz: Melvin, would you like to -- >> Melvin Rogers: Yes. So I think -- I think you know, again that Chip is right here. You know, the other thing I would add to that is that at this present moment where we sit historically, as we are grappling with the history of protest movements, as we're grappling with a history of racial disregard that continues to live into the present, we find ourselves groping for a language. We find ourselves groping for a vocabulary. We find ourselves groping for a tradition. This book is the tradition, this book is the vocabulary to grapple with the moment in which we find ourselves. If we would only listen and read, and walk through, move through the text. So I think that the book is enriching in a scholarly way. But I also think that it's enriching in the sense of giving us a way of talking about the tradition that we all can lay claim to, and that we can deploy as we continue, to the extent that we're committed to it, as we continue to struggle to realize justice and democracy. >> Jack Turner: Yes. And what Melvin said there, it actually reminds me -- you know, the last chapter's on Cornel West by Mark Wood. And I was in a seminar with Cornel West shortly after 9-11. And it was actually on African American intellectual history. And he says here we are you know, in the aftermath on this great terror attack on the United States. And people are wondering you know, how do you live in the shadow of terror? And he said that the entire tradition of Black thought in America is a resource on how to live in the shadow of terror. And more importantly, how to respond to terror without losing your humanity. And that -- I mean, that was a huge moment in my education. But it's also -- it was sort of pointing -- Cornel was pointing to the ways in which this tradition is kind of a hidden treasure for dealing with many of the problems our democracy currently faces. And so part of what we hope the book is to sort of bring some of that treasure to the surface, and say it is a resource. And it's a resource that everyone can benefit from. >> Janna Deitz: Well, Melvin and Jack, thank you so much for joining us today. You've left us with a lot to think about, and we appreciate the time to discuss this new book. It's fantastic. And we appreciate this, so we hope to see you soon. Take care. >> Melvin Rogers: Thank you very much. >> Jack Turner: Thank you so much. It's been an honor.