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>> Sponsored by the
James Madison Council.
>> Joel Achenbach: Well,
welcome to the 2021 Library
of Congress National
Book Festival.
I am Joel Achenbach.
I am a science reporter with the
Washington Post, which is one
of the sponsors of the festival.
Thank you for joining us.
Today we're going to
talk about a couple
of amazing books about birds.
One is by Jennifer Ackerman.
It's called, "The Bird Way:
A New Look at How Birds Talk,
Work, Play, Parent, and Think."
The other is by David
Allen Sibley,
"What It's Like To Be a
Bird: From Flying to Nesting,
Eating to Singing-- What
Birds are Doing, and Why."
We will chat for a
bit, the authors and I.
And then, for the last 10
minutes of this session --
it's very short,
only 30 minutes.
Last 10 minutes we will
take questions from you.
So, start putting your questions
in the queue now, please.
So, where are our authors?
There they are.
Hello, Jennifer.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Hi.
>> David Allen Sibley: Hey.
>> Joel Achenbach:
Thanks for being here.
So, birds are amazing.
The reading in your books
-- these are science books.
They're about evolution,
adaptation,
how the birds interact
with their environment.
And as I was reading in the
books, I was thinking, wow,
I can't believe evolution
did that.
I can't believe this
bird exists.
You know, this bird
flies over the Himalayas.
This bird flies from the North
Pole to the South Pole and back.
How is that possible?
So, here's such an easy question
for you to start off with.
Just what is the most incredible
thing that you've learned
about birds or the
thing that strikes you?
Like, what's the craziest thing
you've discovered about birds?
Let's start with
Jennifer, if that's okay.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Okay.
Well, I think probably
the most stunning thing
for me was just the level
of intelligence and birds
and the variety of different
kinds of intelligence
that they have, you know.
Spatial intelligence,
technical intelligence,
the ability to make and use
tools, musical intelligence.
So, it's really a remarkable
range of intelligence,
sometimes that we,
ourselves, don't possess.
And they have a really
remarkable spatial memories
and the ability to
navigate to find their way
to places they've
never been before.
So, it's really, I think, this
kind of range of intelligence
and that was the most
remarkable thing for me.
I have some real favorite crazy
bird stories which I'll get
to in a minute, I'm sure.
>> Joel Achenbach: Okay, yeah.
So, the bird brain, we don't
use the term bird right anymore,
because they're too smart.
>> David Allen Sibley: Yes.
Yeah, there's so many things
and I learned a tremendous
amount working
on this latest book.
And so, many of the things
that birds do and the things,
the adaptations that they
have evolved are so incredible
that I have to say, one of the
most remarkable and impressive
to me among this whole list
is their respiratory system,
which I had always heard about
but never really understood
until I had to illustrate
it and describe it
in a simplified way for my book.
Their respiratory system is
completely different from ours.
Their lungs don't
inflate and deflate.
Their lungs are fixed like
a car radiator and air flows
through in one direction
all the time.
And they have a system
of air sacs
so that air inhale and exhale.
The air sacs control the
movement of air and on inhale
and exhale, fresh air is
flowing through the lungs.
So, they are constantly getting
a supply of fresh air flowing
through this fixed lung.
And since the lung isn't
expanding and contracting,
the membranes can be
thinner, the transfer
of gas is much more
efficient than ours.
So, it's safe to say that you
have never seen a bird that's
out of breath, they just
don't get out of breath.
>> Joel Achenbach: So,
let's talk for a second
about bird intelligence.
The one thing that you
mentioned, David, in your --
in the beginning of your book
is that you are surprised
at how sort of thoughtful,
and improvisational, and rich,
I think you talked about the
richness of a bird's life
or what it's like to be a bird.
And that they're
not just, you know,
zombie-like automatons
following their genetic code.
That their life is more
complicated than that.
And, Jennifer, you also in your
book, I mean, which is rich
with examples of the
kind of improvisational,
creative nature of birds.
And as I was reading it,
I was thinking, okay.
So, if they got rid of the human
beings and maybe the primates
on this planet, the birds
would be building spaceships
in about a few million years.
But Jennifer, will you talk
a little bit about that
and maybe David talk about,
like, the bird intelligence.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Yeah, well
there's so many, as I mentioned,
there's so many different
kinds of intelligence.
But one of the things
that really floored me
in researching both of my
books, "The Genius of Birds"
and The Bird Way is
the courtship displays
in the bird world,
they're just unbelievable.
Like our human rituals are,
you know, boxes of chocolates,
and bouquets of flowers,
and things.
They just don't hold a candle to
the really weird, and wonderful,
and intelligent courtship
displays that some birds have.
Like, you know, the
birds of paradise,
they do these really amazing
dances and feather displays.
And the tropical mannequins,
they do full 360° somersaults,
sometimes working
in collaboration
with another male
to draw a female.
And then, you know, there
are bower birds of Australia
and New Guinea and they build
these absolutely gorgeous
creations that are made
of, of hundreds of sticks.
And then, these birds, they
collect like dozens of colorful
and really shiny
objects and they lay them
out in a very artistic
way to impress females.
So, it's a kind of artistic
intelligence that was just,
you know, brand new to me.
But I think that
my favorite example
of the strange courtship
displays of birds and the kind
of intelligence that they
involve is the male palm
cockatoo, which is --
it's this big grey parrot
with a huge hooked bill and
it lives in the rainforests
of northern Australia.
And when it gets excited, when
it's courting, or when it's,
you know, ready to draw a
mate, it raises this wild kind
of flashy head crest and
its cheeks get all pink.
And then, he makes a drumstick
of his own and he starts to drum
against a perch or a tree trunk
in a special rhythm that's
actually uniquely his.
So, you know, making a
drumstick in itself is a wonder
because truly tool making
of any kind is very rare
in the natural world
and almost always occurs
in the context of foraging.
So, the palm cockatoo, it's the
only species other than humans
to make a tool for
musical purposes.
And every male cockatoo
has its own, you know,
distinctive signature
style of drumming.
And so, the bird's
rightfully known, I think,
as the is the Ringo
Starr of the bird world.
It's just really wonderful.
>> Joel Achenbach: That's nice.
David, you want to
talk a little bit
about the richness
of a bird's life?
>> David Allen Sibley: Yeah.
The thing that struck me
throughout my research
as I worked on this book
was how much is going
on in a bird's life.
There's all kinds of
examples of studies --
find things like the that
sparrows when they know
that a hawk is around or
they have some evidence
that a hawk might be around,
they'll stay in hiding
and delay feeding until
the very end of the day.
And that way they have
to gain weight each day
to survive through the night.
So, they'll delay, they're
feeding so that they stay light,
and agile, and quick to be
able to avoid a hawk and then,
at the last possible minute.
So, those kinds of decisions,
there's so many examples of that
that kind of decision making
that birds are doing
all the time.
And it made me think that,
you know, my impression --
the simplistic idea of instinct
as a sort of genetic code,
a computer code that
just directs the birds
to do what they do as
robots is very wrong.
That there's a much more subtle
decision making going on.
And instinct might provide a
sort of template or guidance
but the birds make
decisions about what to do.
And that led me to think that
our own our own feelings,
you know, how does instinct,
then, motivate the bird
to do what it needs to do?
Feelings would be a
good way to do that.
So, sort of a feeling of
satisfaction or a feeling
of anxiety would direct
the bird or us to do things
that our instinct
is telling us to do.
And I think it just made
me think more in depth
about what instinct really
is, and how it works and maybe
in that way we and birds
are not so different.
That the feeling of satisfaction
that we get from mowing the lawn
or painting the new room
before the baby comes home,
it's that feeling of
satisfaction could be --
we talk about it as nesting.
We refer to it as nesting,
that kind of activity.
And it may be very similar
to what birds are doing
and motivated the same way.
>> Joel Achenbach: So, a lot
of people -- it's remarkable.
Both of your books
came out right
when the pandemic was hitting.
And in a really --
they were books
that people gravitated toward
because, as we all remember,
when the country is shut
down the traffic stops,
there weren't very
many airplanes,
and suddenly people are like,
what's with all the birds?
Wow. There's all these
birds everywhere.
People discovered birds.
And it makes me wonder if,
you know, have this kind
of a big question about
how are birds doing?
We're living on a planet that's
being so heavily impacted
by human beings in terms
of habitat destruction,
climate change, you
know, and so on.
But maybe you can both
address the question
of which birds are
most threatened now?
And which ones are going to
be fine with climate change
because they'll figure
out a way to adapt.
And what should we collectively
be aware of in terms
of how we can help
the birds that are
in most vulnerable
to human impacts?
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Yeah.
Boy, you know, human activity
has already caused the
extinction of, I think,
a thousand bird species.
And just in the past
five decades or so
in North America alone, we've
lost three billion birds,
30% of the bird population.
And, you know, so many
species are at risk
because they can't adapt
to the really rapid pace
of human-induced
change in our planet.
And I think all birds
are probably affected
by climate change
and habitat loss.
But I think possibly the hardest
hit are going to be the birds
that are specialists
that, you know,
that need a particular
niche to survive.
Tropical species are at
risk because, you know,
their ranges are often
small and specialized.
They have a particular zone on
a mountain or a particular kind
of rainforest and those
habitats are changing.
Sometimes they're just
being terribly degraded.
Also, I think migratory
species are really threatened
by climate change.
Those, you know, migratory
birds that that travel
for very long distances.
Those long distance journeys are
really delicately timed for kind
of food blooms that occur at the
staging grounds along the way
to the breeding grounds.
And as earth warms, the kind
of two critical timing signals
for birds and their prey --
that's length of day and
temperature -- those uncouple.
And so, what happens
is that, you know,
migrating birds might
be arriving
at their feeding grounds and
they're either too early,
usually, or too late for
the bloom of their prey.
So, that's a big threat
and, you know, I don't know.
What do we do?
I think--
>> Joel Achenbach:
What do we do?
>> Jennifer Ackerman:
I we're all feeling--
>> Joel Achenbach:
No, keep going.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Yeah,
I think we're all feeling
really overwhelmed by this.
I just, I read a really
terrific opinion piece
in the New York Times
called, I think,
it was "The Disaster We
Must Think About Every Day".
And in it she says, it's by
Tressie Cottom, and she says,
you know, she says,
"pick a thing.
You don't have to do the thing
that's going to solve everything
but just pick a thing."
So, that was helpful to me.
It's like, you know, make
your voice heard for birds
in some way, vote
for environmentally
minded candidates,
write your congressional
representatives
to support environmental
regulations
like Endangered Species Act and
the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.
And, you know, maybe the most
important thing is really to try
to cultivate a healthy
environment wherever you live.
I would say ditch your lawn and
instead plant native species
that will attract
and support birds.
Also this fall, you know,
birds like leaf litter
so don't bother raking.
And finally, you know, if you
have cats keep them indoors
because predation by domestic
cats is really, I think,
the number one human
caused threat
to birds in North America.
That, you know, the US along
outdoor cats kill millions
of birds every year.
So, that's a very
concrete thing you can do.
>> Joel Achenbach: Thank you.
David, do you want
to address that?
>> David Allen Sibley: Yeah, I--
>> Joel Achenbach: What
can we do for birds?
>> David Allen Sibley: Yeah,
and Jennifer did a great job
explaining the whole thing
and with some examples
of things to do.
I agree with all of that.
I think that for my whole life
we've been really focusing
on habitat pesticides.
Those are the risks,
the big risks to birds.
But now, climate change, I
think, is the biggest most sort
of overwhelming threat to birds.
And as Jennifer said,
the most at risk species
for that are the specialists.
Especially species in limited
climate zones like mountaintops,
or a certain elevation
range in mountains,
but also coastal species.
Birds of the salt marsh, they're
living within a few inches of,
you know, horizontal space just
above the high tide line
is their whole life.
And that's -- it's
already changing.
And as sea level rises more
and more rapidly they're going
to have a really hard time
finding any place to exist.
Species that nest on
beaches and sandbars,
similarly those places,
they're more likely, you know,
a storm in June, an
exceptionally high tide
in June will flood the nests.
And that's it for
the birds that year.
It doesn't have to be a --
the sandbar doesn't
have to disappear
under the water completely.
Just for a couple of hours,
one time, one high tide.
And that's happening
more and more often.
So, climate change, I think,
is the biggest single thing
to address and that's got to
be a big political solution.
There's lots of things that
individual people can do.
But to focus on something
more, a little more concrete
and at home, like Jennifer
said, making your own yard
and neighborhood more hospitable
for birds is a really
great thing.
There's lots of information out
there about native plantings
and the importance of
native plants for birds.
That the native plants have
evolved with the native insects
and other invertebrates so
there's a huge community
of bird food that lives on
native plants and species
like Norway Maple that
grow really well here.
One of the reasons
they grow so well is
that there aren't any
insects that attack them.
So, planting oaks,
native maples,
shrubs, like service berry.
If I burn them, lots and lots
of others, and there's lots
of information out there about
what will grow where you live?
Those species of plants will
provide lots of food for birds
and that, you know, as the birds
right now they're making these
incredible migrations.
All the warblers, wood warblers
are heading south from Canada,
the northern US, central US
going south to the Caribbean,
Central America, South America
and they need food
along the way.
They're flying all night and
then spending a couple of days
on the ground fattening up to
make another 300-mile flight
in a couple of nights.
So, if they can find food
in your backyard
there'll be a lot happier.
>> Joel Achenbach: We're
going to go to questions
from the audience in
just a moment here.
So, just a reminder, you can
put questions in the queue.
I want to just real
quick ask you both,
we were chatting
in the green room.
You both have such
remarkable lives.
You're able to take
something that is a passion,
which is birding, and turn
it into such beautiful work
and really important work.
Before we go to questions
just real quick, Jennifer,
how did you pick The Bird Way as
your next topic after, I guess,
the previous book was
"The Genius of Birds"?
>> Jennifer Ackerman:
That's right.
>> Joel Achenbach: And then,
David just maybe
you can summarize
that you had originally
wanted to do a book for kids
and this new book
evolved from that.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Yeah.
Well I when, after I'd
finished The Genius of Birds,
which was really about
the different kinds
of bird intelligence
and what we've learned
about the bird brain being
just this real miracle
of miniaturization.
You know, it's super efficient.
It's really dense with neurons
and it has these capabilities
that we just never dreamed of.
And so, I got interested
in the idea.
Well, how are birds actually
using their intelligence
in their daily lives
and, you know,
as they go about
their communication,
their raising of their young.
And so, The Bird Way really
grew out of that idea.
So, looking at some of the quite
extraordinary behaviors of birds
and how they reveal
intelligence.
One of the examples that really
stands out for me is the kinds
of communication that
birds are capable of.
And their sophisticated
communication that some
of their alarm calls are
just packed with information.
And so, The Bird Way
looks at, well, you know,
what are birds actually
communicating, and what are some
of the subtleties of their
messages, and are other species
of birds understanding
what they're saying?
And it turns out, yes, they do.
And, in a way, birds can
understand foreign languages.
So, that's really the
-- it was for me--
really exciting to just explore
how birds apply their very
sophisticated intelligence
in their daily lives.
>> Joel Achenbach: And so,
David, I know I asked you
that question and
I'm going to --
but because we're running
short on time, I want to go
to some questions
from the queue here.
There's a couple of people
who are asking about emotions.
And David, maybe you
can take this on.
Do you believe all
birds have the capacity
to emotionally relate
or love a mate.
That is from one
person in the audience.
And there's a similar one
from someone else saying,
are birds aware of
each other's emotion?
So, what is the -- what's it
like to be a bird,
emotionally, David?
>> David Allen Sibley: Yeah.
That's a tricky question and one
that I didn't really address.
And I don't know of any
research that addresses that.
And it's a subject that's
been really kind of taboo
in science for decades.
That and so, and when I say
that I think the feelings
that we have could be
the stirrings of instinct
and similar to the way
instinct works in birds,
I'm not directly trying to say
that birds feel satisfaction,
or anxiety, or love, or
other feelings like that.
Only that instinct is
motivating them in some way
with some sensation like that.
So, I don't know what birds feel
or what their experience
is in that way.
And I don't think anybody can.
There is -- one of the
things I could talk
about how their experience,
and Jennifer mentioned
this, their experience.
What it's like to be a
bird is very different
from what it's like
to be a human.
Their senses are very different,
their brains are different,
it's a very different
experience.
So, whether they have or what --
I have a sense that
they have some feelings
and that's how instinct
motivates them
but I don't know what
those feelings would be
and if we would call
them emotions.
>> Joel Achenbach: Jennifer,
do you want to take a
shot at that question?
Then, there's a question
specifically for you after that.
We only have a little
bit of time left.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Right.
>> Joel Achenbach:
But what do you think
about birds and their feelings?
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Yeah,
I'll try to be quick here.
There is some evidence
that birds have the sort
of foundations of empathy.
So, there's a researcher
named Thomas Bugnyar
who works with ravens.
And he has determined
that, you know,
ravens are very social birds
and they have very
close allies, mates.
And if a mate or an ally is
injured or in some way in,
you know, a fight, the bird
that's associated with that mate
or ally will actually come
over to the bird, preen it,
bills with it, which is sort of
the bird equivalent of kissing.
So, there's clearly
some effort to console
and some understanding that
there's been injury and harm.
So, it's, you know,
whether we call that empathy
or not is a question
but it looks
like something similar to that.
And I've always believed that
the birds form attachments
to their mates and in some of
them very deep attachments.
And there is some evidence
that birds can actually
understand what's going
on in another bird's
mind and some
of the mate-to-mate feeding
rituals that go on imply that.
So, I think we're just at the
cusp of beginning to figure
out how to study these questions
and they're really fascinating.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: So
Jennifer, there's a question
that someone has asked you
specifically to answer.
Can you comment on this
year's mysterious bird plague
in the mid-Atlantic
linked to bird feeders?
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Yeah.
So, I think there's a lot
of controversy about that.
And David actually might be
able to jump in here too.
We had to take our own feeders
down here in central Virginia
because of this very
strange disease
that was affecting birds' eyes,
and their behavior,
and was lethal.
And there was some thought
that it might be tied
to the blomus cicadas.
This brood of cicadas
that, the 17 years.
But I don't actually know
whether they've settled
the mystery.
David, do you know?
Do you have a--
>> David Allen Sibley: Yeah.
Well, I know what I've read
in press releases and sort
of write-ups but
it's still a mystery.
And it was never linked to
bird feeders as far as I know.
There was the suggestion to
take down bird feeders was
as a precaution to help the
birds to social distance
so that they wouldn't be
gathering in one place.
So, it wasn't linked
to bird feeders.
The taking down bird
feeders was just a precaution
to help slow the spread.
But as far as I know, there's
still no explanation for it.
So, there's no diagnosis.
We don't even know
if it was a disease.
It could have been a toxin.
It could have been two or
three different things,
all just coincidentally
happening around the same time.
So, it's still a mystery but
thankfully it's fading away.
And still people are
still working on it.
So, there may be some
answers some day,
but it's still mysterious.
>> Joel Achenbach: So, we
are running short on time.
Here's a question from someone
who asked, "Why are pigeons
so widely misunderstood
and hated?"
I will say, I don't hate pigeons
and I don't really have any
understanding of them at all.
But it makes me think about
something else that I believe is
in your book, Jennifer, is that
vultures are widely regarded
as bad birds, but
they're actually good.
And if you get rid of all the
vultures, complications ensue
that are not favorable.
So, I don't know.
Do either of you want to
comment on either pigeons
or my question, vultures?
>> Jennifer Ackerman: I'd
like to jump in on pigeons
because I think they
really are maligned.
You know, first of all,
they're fantastic navigators
and there's a reason that
we have homing pigeons.
And, you know, they really
have very sophisticated ways.
They have a basically a
mental toolkit that's kind
of the equivalent of
our GPS, our compasses,
our satellite navigation.
These birds have this
all in their heads.
And also, pigeons
are really gifted
at making visual distinctions.
So, they can tell, you know,
the different letters
of the alphabet.
They can distinguish
different human faces.
And they've even been
trained to distinguish
between different kinds of
tissue in mammograms, you know,
cancerous tissue
versus healthy tissue.
And they can do so
better than a technician.
So, pigeons have lots of
tricks up their sleeves that --
and I think people just don't
like them because they're,
you know, there are a lot of
them and they're, you know,
they tend to be in
our city environments,
but I think they're
vastly underestimated.
>> David Allen Sibley: Yeah,
I'll jump in on pigeons as well.
That they're, I think it's
the classic familiarity
breeds contempt.
And pigeons actually, there
is a huge number of people
around the world
who love pigeons.
There are hundreds of
different breeds of pigeons
that have been created
by pigeon breeders
and pigeon racing
is still popular.
So, there's a pretty
big number of people
who actually love pigeons.
>> Joel Achenbach: Love pigeons.
Well, listen.
Our time is up.
I want to say, first of all,
to the people out there,
thanks for watching this.
And to Jennifer and David,
thank you for taking the time
to talk about your books.
Congratulations on these books.
They're really wonderful.
They are truly marvelous
in the literal sense.
They're full of marvels
of nature.
And so, that's going
to wrap it up for us.
Thanks everyone for being here.
>> David Allen Sibley:
Thank you.
>> Jennifer Ackerman: Thank you.
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