[ Music ]
>> Sponsored by the National
Endowment for the Arts
and the National Endowment
for the Humanities.
>> Carla Hayden: Good evening.
And welcome to the 2021 Library
of Congress National
Book Festival.
I'm Carla Hayden, the Librarian
of Congress, and I am excited
and honored tonight to
welcome Ms. Nikki Giovanni.
And before we begin, I
just want to let you know
that there will be time at
the end of this life event
to respond to your questions.
So you can start submitting
them now on LOC.gov/bookfest.
I'm excited because
as a librarian,
I know that Ms. Nikki
Giovanni is the author
of over two dozen books
for adults and children,
including the New York
Times best-selling Bicycles,
Love Poems, Hip Hop Speaks
to Children, and Rosa.
She has also published
works of nonfiction
and multiple recordings,
including the Nikki
Giovanni Poetry Collection,
which was nominated
for a Grammy award.
And tonight, Ms. Giovanni
joins us from the campus
of Virginia Tech, where she has
taught for over three decades.
So welcome and hello, Ms. Nikki.
It's been a while since
we've been together.
But this is wonderful.
Thank you so much.
>> Nikki Giovanni: I'm
delighted to see you.
Thank you for inviting me.
I'm sorry, I'm not as well as
I should be to be able to come
over to DC, but I'm delighted
to be a part of the program.
And Carla, it's so nice
of you to think of me.
And thank you for
the nice words.
Thank you.
>> Carla Hayden: Well,
as the young people
say, I'm a fan girl.
So, you have to know that.
Because to begin with,
you know, as a response
to the Festival's theme
this year is Open a Book,
Open the World.
And I have to start with
one of my favorite poems,
your poem from Acolytes.
And it's My First
Memory (of Librarians).
And I promise everyone, this
is the only time I'm going
to read the poem.
But My First Memory
(of Librarians).
This is my first memory, a big
room with heavy wooden tables
that sat on a creaky wood floor.
A line of green shades,
banker's lights down the center.
Heavy oak chairs
that were too low
or maybe I was simply too short,
for me to sit in and read.
So my first book was always big.
In the foyer are four steps, a
semi-circular desk presiding.
To the left side,
the card catalogue.
On the right, newspapers draped
over what looked
like a quilt rack.
Magazines face out on a wall.
The welcoming smile of my
librarian, the anticipation
in my heart, all those
books, another world,
just waiting at my fingertips.
You captured it.
And I just want to you share,
if you could, with all of us,
the part that librarians
and libraries played
in your life and
your development?
Because the next poem right next
to it is dedicated
to your librarian.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
Yes, Mrs. Long.
And I'll always remember her.
And I forget-- half the time
I don't remember my name.
But I remember Mrs. Long.
She's from Iowa.
But what I-- I'm amazed,
let me just put it this way.
And I'm not being, I'm not in a
bad mood, Carla, but I'm amazed
that people don't spend
time in the library.
How could you not be proud
of going to, in my case,
it was the Carnegie Library.
And it was during segregation.
And we didn't know, I was a
little girl, so I didn't know
that segregation
was a bad thing.
I knew that I could walk up and
because we lived on the hill,
I could walk up [inaudible]
street to Vine street,
to the Carnegie Library.
And of course, Mrs.
Long was there,
and she would always say hi,
Yolanda-- I was born Yolanda.
Hi, Yolanda, what
can we do today?
And it was always something--
I was reading, I think,
sort of crazy books.
I was reading Darwin when
nobody else was reading Darwin.
And to tell you the truth,
I didn't know at that point,
when she had to go--
I wanted also
to read Rachel Carson,
Silent Spring.
And I didn't know when
she said well I'll have
to get those tomorrow, and
what she had to do was go
up to the white library.
To get those books.
And I was grown, I was
old before I realized,
what she must have gone
through to get these books
for a black kid.
Because I know somebody
said something to her.
Somebody went well, what
do you all want with that?
I know nobody-- it had to be
something that she had to take.
Something she had to listen to.
Yet she always brought
me books that I wanted,
that I was interested in.
Then she'd always
ask me about them.
So, it's really-- I'll
always remember her.
And I don't think-- I think
the library is the most
important thing.
And if I could say one thing,
since you are the Librarian
of Congress, Congress
needs to read a few books
so that they can make
a little more sense
than they're making right now.
>> Carla Hayden: And
that's why the Library
of Congress is there
to serve them.
And what's interesting is--
and I couldn't help but react
when you said you
wanted to read Darwin?
And Rachel Carson?
How old were you?
>> Nikki Giovanni: I
was 10, 11 years old.
I was just always
interested in something crazy,
something that probably
most kids weren't reading.
But I wanted to know how
did the world evolve?
And we still are a crazy world.
And I'm reading a book right now
that says we evolved
from the fish.
And I thought oh, that's really
interesting that we came--
and it makes sense, that
we came out of the ocean.
We just kind of walked on
shore and kind of looked around
and thought well, I'm not
going back there, I'll go here.
And I am of course, as you know
because we've talked before,
I'm a big space freak.
And I'm really just
excited about going to Mars.
And I'm working with, they're
not going to send me to Mars,
but I'm working with NASA.
And I think, you
know, what do I need?
And I finally figured
out what I really need
in order to go to Mars.
I need my dog, I
need some champagne,
and I need some music.
And I think that
I could make it,
that it would be a lovely trip.
>> Carla Hayden: I think
we could all like that.
And so, space, and
NASA, in fact,
I think you have
a poem dedicated
to space and what it would be?
>> Nikki Giovanni: I have a lot
of-- my favorite one, though,
you know, I'm a Fisk
University graduate.
And I'm very fortunate.
My grandfather graduated
Fisk in 1905.
But I wanted to share this
poem particularly with you.
Because I think that we forget
the strength that it took
for the people who saved.
We all like the people, we
all like Frederick Douglass.
I think he was cute, I don't
have any problem with that.
We all are very proud
of Harriet Tubman.
And we like all of those people
that took these important steps.
But we forget the
people who stayed.
No matter how awful.
And there were a lot of
awful things that happened.
So when we finally get to
1955, Rosa Parks is not going
to take it anymore,
but that's another way.
But I think about the
people who stayed.
And I should have
said on the poem,
I should have said dedicated
to the 13th Amendment,
but I assumed that
everybody knew.
Now I know that it's not.
But I wanted to share this,
because if those
people hadn't stayed,
you and I couldn't
be where we are.
But some of us stayed.
We forget the strength of
those who stayed behind.
We sometimes don't recognize
what it took to decide
to build a church, a school, a
store to sell the yams we picked
from the ground, the tomatoes
we carefully watched turn red
on the vines.
To seek the okra pods, as well
as to pick our own cotton.
We took pride in our work.
And lovingly encouraged
our daughters to dream.
We sent them, our daughters,
to school, then, to college.
And they stayed to help others.
100 years is not so long when
we plant love with patience.
When we find that song that
gives us the strength to go on.
And I just wanted
to say something,
I want to give a shout
out to the women.
Because the women
had to be the ones--
we were the ones
going to school,
we were the ones
learning to read.
Not that the men didn't.
Because our brothers and our
husbands all were out working.
And they were proud that
we were going to school.
And we all are.
But I think it's so important
to remember what the women
did to lift all of us up.
I just think it's important,
I think that we forget it.
And it needs to be remembered,
it just needs to be--
we need to give a
shout-out to the women.
>> Carla Hayden: And
the people who stayed.
Who farmed and you also
have been pretty outspoken
about talking about the role
of women that continues.
And that's how it brought
in Rosa, Rosa Parks.
But that it's still women.
>> Nikki Giovanni: Well,
women are important,
you know, you forget.
And it's easy, I think, to
forget, that even in slavery,
the women are going to
wake up before dawn.
They're going to
wake up at the grey.
And they're going
to start dinner.
Not breakfast.
They're going to start dinner.
And they're going
to cook dinner.
And I still like my food
that cooks all day long.
They were going to
start, you know, a stew,
or whatever they were doing.
But it was going
to cook all day.
So that when everybody
came home from the field,
they would have a hot meal.
And I think that
that was important.
But they started dinner.
Then, they started breakfast.
Then, they called the men.
And the men got up and
ate their breakfast.
Not that-- don't misunderstand,
the men did the work,
did a lot of work.
But the women made
sure they had that.
And when we get to 1955,
when we get to Rosa Parks,
and we get to the
Montgomery Bus Boycott,
we're going to have
the women doing that.
And making lunch.
And giving lunch to the men.
So that they did not have
to get on those buses.
So the bus boycott,
that everybody said oh,
it won't last, they'll
have to ride a bus.
But the men did last
because the women made sure
that they had something to
eat and that we were proud
of what they were doing.
And I think it's important
to-- again, I just think it's--
I think it's so important.
And one of my favorite poems,
which I don't have here, Carla,
at all, is on the
Million Man March.
Because I think the
hardest thing
about the Million Man March, was
not that the million men went.
Because I'm proud of them, and
anybody would be proud of them.
But the fact that the women
had to stay home and pretend
that they weren't worried.
Because if you were a
black woman, and your son
or your husband or
your brother was going
to the Million Man
March, you were going
to be very much concerned
that he won't return.
And even now, one of the things
that's happening with the women,
my son is 51 years old.
When you start to
look at your children,
you're afraid every time
they leave the house.
You're wondering
will they return?
It's-- it's frightening.
It's frightening.
We need to do something
about that.
>> Carla Hayden: And
you mentioned love.
And so there's that double
edged sword with love.
You worry, you love,
you're happy,
but then there's all that.
And your whole book
titled Love Poems is love
in many different ways, now.
From loving food to
loving all types of things.
>> Nikki Giovanni: I am a
foodie, that's the truth.
But there's a lot
to do with love.
I have had, like
many black women,
I have high blood pressure.
And my doctor's been
on my case about it.
He says, you know, Nikki,
you've got to slow down.
You know doctors.
And a black woman, the first
thing they say no matter,
first thing they say is you've
got high blood pressure.
And so my doctor, who is
cute, and I always laugh
because if he wasn't cute,
I wouldn't listen to him.
And he says you got
to slow down.
Which I've been trying to do.
But I have a fish pond,
I have some goldfish,
so when I come home from--
I teach at Virginia Tech.
They haven't fired me yet.
And when I come home, I pour
myself a glass of champagne
and go and sit in the fish pond.
And the fish just swim around.
And I know my blood
pressure just going down.
You need either some goldfish
or you need to grow some--
of course, some rosemary.
You've got a window,
grow some rosemary.
Because just coming
into your house,
smelling the rosemary,
will make you relax.
And of course, a
glass of champagne.
>> Carla Hayden:
That never hurts.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
That never hurts.
>> Carla Hayden: The wonderful
pleasures of good wine
and nature and that just flows
through all of your poems, too.
And when you published your
first book of poems in 1968,
when you think about this
journey and how you've grown
as a poet, certain things have
been there from the beginning.
So how would you
characterize that journey
and where you think
you are right now?
>> Nikki Giovanni: I think
all that I know, Carla,
and we are going to be in the
same room on this one, I think.
All I know are words.
As all you know are books.
And those are [inaudible]
combination.
I can't sing, I can't dance,
my sister was really
a very pretty woman.
And you can see, you can
look at me, and see I'm just,
you know, I'm not that pretty.
I wasn't stylish.
I couldn't play the piano.
So what did I have?
I could watch.
And that's what writers
do, writers watch.
So I watched.
My parents had a
troubled marriage.
And eventually I had to leave.
I went to live with
my grandparents,
and very fortunate I had a--
I had a grandmother who was
wonderful, is what I should say.
A great grandmother.
But what-- all I had were words.
And words are meaningful to me.
And so I don't want anybody
to take words away from me.
I don't want black people, white
people, I don't want anybody
to take words away from me.
Because words are all I have.
And words are what
I have to offer.
People can take it, or people--
and I mean no disrespect,
they can take it or
they can leave it.
I've never been in a public
space that the door's locked
and we laugh about that.
Because I have said some
things that people--
oh, don't you think
that that upsets people?
I said the door was
open when they came in,
the door's open when they leave.
But I'm going to say
what I have to say,
because all I have are words.
And some of those words, when
I'm lucky, turn into love.
And some of those words turn
into disturbing some people.
But I'm just there.
So if you're disturbed,
that's your problem.
That's not my problem.
Sometimes you need
to be disturbed.
Because some things
are disturbing.
And I have such a
great admiration
for Black Lives Matter.
Because those young
women thought yeah,
it's time that people
were disturbed.
It's time that people
realized black lives matter.
And it matters to us, but
it matters to everybody.
And it was lovely to see the
Glow, because that went all
over Australia, that
Perth, Australia.
It was just lovely to see
that those young women
have engaged the planet.
And we're going to have to
continue to engage the planet
and some of the needs
that we see.
We're just going to have
to continue to do it.
We can do that.
We are capable of doing that.
>> Carla Hayden: I
was fortunate to be
in the audience several years
ago at a history makers event.
And it was in Martha Vineyard's.
And everybody was so excited
that you were going to speak.
And everything.
And you caused a disturbance.
You said a few things that
my mom even remembers,
which she watches the news
sometimes and says you know,
Nikki Giovanni talked
about that, she said that.
How are you feel
about being quote,
"right" about things sometimes?
>> Nikki Giovanni: I
just think that I try
to tell the truth about things.
And I don't-- I'm old enough
and probably always was,
but I know I'm old
enough to know
that I cannot change the world.
That I accept.
But what I know is that I will
not let the world change me.
I think that whatever it
is that I have to give,
I have some truths to give, I
have-- there's some laughter.
I'm a black woman.
And black women,
despite all of it,
we still find a way to laugh.
And I love-- one of my favorite
spirituals is Sometimes I Feel
Like a Motherless Child.
And I love it because
of that sometimes.
Not all the time.
Not every day.
But sometimes.
And I think oh, if
I had been enslaved,
would I just sometimes feel
like a motherless child?
And I just think that
that's so incredible
that these people can come
through what we have
come through.
And there's still going
to be a sometimes.
Which means sometimes not.
I just think it's incredible
to a black American.
And I would certainly
recommend it.
And if you want to be--
>> Carla Hayden:
You recommend it.
Recommend it.
That sounds like it's something.
Because you were part
of the Black Arts Movement
in the 60s and 70s.
And just something.
And generations afterward
followed.
I also was fortunate to
recently see your interview
with James Baldwin.
That you did.
Would you please talk
about that, some?
Because it's being shown in
a documentary about the show,
I think it was called Soul?
>> Nikki Giovanni: Soul.
I say to the young people, I'm
not trying to mentor anybody
or anything like that.
I'm close to a couple of
youngsters that I've taught.
But one of the things that
I wanted to point out,
I've got you here, so people
are going to be listening.
You have to be careful
of what they allow you,
whoever they is,
allow you to pay you.
And when Soul started, Ellis
Haizlip, who was the founder
of Soul, just came up to-- I
lived up on [inaudible] avenue.
My next door neighbor, by
the way, was Morgan Freeman.
And I lived next to him.
So Ellis came up and said what
do you think we should do?
And I said Ellis, I think
you should be the host.
It's your show, you
should be it.
He said I'm not sure.
He had a lisp.
And he said well I'm not sure,
I said it's yours,
you should do it.
And he said well,
I'd like to hire you.
And something said
don't be hired.
I said if you hire
me, I'll do it.
And so I started
to work with Ellis.
But I wouldn't accept any
money because somehow,
something just said,
be careful--
you always have to be careful
who you take money from.
At the end of the show, at the
end of the year, Ellis owed me.
And he knew he owed me.
And everybody knows I'm a
foodie, so there are a lot
of great restaurants, as
you know, in New York.
And he said okay, I owe you,
where would you like to go?
What would you like?
And I said I'd really love
to talk to James Baldwin.
But I don't know how to do that.
And he said oh, I know James.
I'll give him a call and
see if he'll talk to you.
Which is how that
happened, because he owed me.
And he called Mr. Baldwin.
And Mr. Baldwin said, you know,
he was in Saint Paul, his home,
and he said well I'd love to
talk to Nikki but I'm busy.
Will she mind coming to London?
And I love London.
And I was like oh yeah,
you know, we'll go.
My son and my babysitter--
and Debbie died of
cancer, Debbie Reynolds.
And Debbie, the three
of us went to London.
And Jimmy is a night owl.
And I have a child, a young boy
who is getting up
early in the day.
So Jimmy would be
coming in, at, you know,
7 o'clock in the morning.
And we'd be getting
up for breakfast.
And Thomas, just, Jimmy
was so good with children.
And Thomas went Jimmy Baldwin,
Jimmy Baldwin, take
me for a walk!
And Jimmy was, you know,
probably hung over.
And he would say well
I'll take you later.
Jimmy Baldwin, take
me for a walk!
So Jimmy had to take
him for a walk.
And that's just one of the
ways that we got to be close.
But we worked at night.
So we started shooting that
at about 8 o'clock at night.
It was shot in London.
And you can see the difference
between how the British look
at film and how Americans do.
Because Jimmy and I both
talk with our hands.
And so you'll see a
lot of hand movement.
And it was just--
it was wonderful.
And we weren't sure.
There were things that
I thought should be said
or should be asked.
And I-- it-- he's Jimmy
Baldwin and I'm not.
But I was nervous.
And that's the truth.
I mean, he's a great writer.
But I thought that
there are some things
that I have responsibility
to a generation.
So I tried to do a good job.
And I think I did the
best job that I could.
And Jimmy and I became friends.
>> Carla Hayden:
It's inspirational.
I would encourage anybody
to look at that interview.
Because you see the passing
almost of the baton, too.
And he acknowledged
that with you.
And to have that.
And so you mentioned
that there--
you are working with some
poets and artists right now.
Would you-- anything you
could share with us, or?
>> Nikki Giovanni: Oh, it's
the same 20 years, you know?
And it's really funny.
Jimmy's 20 years
older than I am.
I work with Kwame
Alexander, for example,
and I really love Kwame.
With Jordan Holmes, who you may
not know who he is, a Chicagoan.
And Randy, who is a rapper,
wanted to do an interview
with me.
And I said yes because you
have to say yes to most things.
But Randy, it's really funny,
is 20 years younger than I am.
And I said do you realize
that we've got this
20 year thing going.
And in 20 years,
somebody's going to come up
and ask you for the same thing.
And she said yeah, I guess so.
I said this is how we
keep the story going.
And I just talk-- you know,
I say yes to almost
everything that I can.
I've had some-- as we all have,
you get to be 78 years old,
you know, I've had
some health issues.
But I try to get along to
talk to people, to do things.
And I'm working with
Prairie View A&M,
have started a Toni
Morrison workshop.
And I love Toni so much,
we were good friends.
And right now I'm
Zooming on that.
But I'm going to go down
to probably in the spring,
we'll be going down
to A&M to help set
up what I think Toni would
have wanted her workshop to be.
And to help bring in, make
sure that we're bringing
in some other people, because
you know, they're right--
A&M is right outside of Houston.
And A&M needs to reach out, I
think, to Houston a little more.
Because there's a lot
of talent in Houston.
And I think a lot of
people enjoy writing.
I don't think you can
think, Carla, about writing
as I'm going to write
and make a bestseller.
I think you have
to say I'm going
to write the most
honest book that I can,
or the most honest
poem that I can.
And so I'd like to make
sure that while I am working
with A&M, we can bring them,
A&M closure to the
Houston community.
>> Carla Hayden: Yes,
and it also sounds
like what you just said about,
you know, writing the truth,
not writing for a bestseller,
is advice that you would
give young writers or people
who were thinking about it.
Because-- and you've
been teaching since 1987.
And at Virginia Tech,
they still want you.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
They still do.
>> Carla Hayden: Is
that part of it, too?
Being able to share what you've
learned and your experiences
with others that
keeps you going?
>> Nikki Giovanni:
Well, literature,
as we do know, is important.
And I have been lucky
here at Virginia Tech.
Because my mentor here
is Virginia Fowler.
And some of you have
talked to Ginny.
I'd be lost without Ginny
because she understands
all of this.
But mostly, she and I
can discuss literature.
She can-- we look at things
not all that differently,
but a little differently.
So I have someone
that I can learn from.
And I think I'd be pretty
much lost without Ginny.
So I think I'm very lucky.
She brought me here.
She-- what do you call it?
She-- what is it?
>> Recreated you?
>> Nikki Giovanni: Okay.
She recruited me.
And then made sure
that everybody kind
of took care of me.
Because there was some
controversy about me staying.
I was the only black
person at that point.
And there was some people
here in the department,
the English department, who said
that they-- that if, you know,
if Nikki Giovanni comes,
they were going to leave.
And Ginny went over
to-- we call her Ginny--
went over to the
president of the university
and said this is
what's happening.
And he came over to the English
department and said goodbye
to the two colleagues.
And so I stayed.
I'm here. And Ginny [crosstalk]
university functions.
I owe her a lot.
This has been-- I'm a hokey.
It's home.
And if I hadn't been
happy, I shouldn't be here,
but I am happy, and I'm very
proud I'm a Blackalachian.
All of us in Appalachia,
we, the blacks
and the Appalachians
have a lot in common.
And it's one of the things,
even though I teach mostly
right now children's literature,
it's one of the things that I
keep trying to remind people.
That the blacks and the
white Appalachians have a lot
in common.
You can look at our food,
you can look at our quilts.
You can look at a lot of things
that we do, listen to our music.
Phil Everly just
died a few years ago.
And the Everly Brothers, they
definitely were listening
to black American music.
So, we have things in common.
And what we're really hoping is
that the Appalachian community
will regain its courage.
Because it was very important
that the Appalachian community
pulled away from Virginia.
And their license
plate should say it.
That we will not
send our sons to die
so that the Shenandoah
can have slaves.
And they pulled away
from Virginia.
If they hadn't done that,
the Civil War would
have gone differently.
And I think that
that's something
that needs to be taught.
It needs-- the white
Appalachians need to know
that they did something not
only courageous, but correct.
>> Carla Hayden: That
certainly gets lost.
And you mentioned too
that you're doing mostly
teaching children's literature.
And you've had poetry
for adults and children.
And I wondered as a children's
librarian, still at heart,
what are the things that you
do differently, if you do,
when you write poetry
for children.
You did the Hip Hop
Poems and you do that.
And what-- are there more things
in common in terms of that?
>> Nikki Giovanni: I think I
just do what I think makes sense
to me.
And I talk to my students a lot.
And I've ruined a couple
of vacations for them
because I really just
like Thanksgiving.
But also, I'm trying to help
my students understand okay,
let's you and I, let's look
at Little Red Riding Hood.
And everybody thinks you know,
oh, Little Red Riding Hood is
out in the forest and the
Wolf is going to get her.
Well, what we had
was the red fever.
Scarlet fever.
And we have Little Red Riding
Hood's mother putting a red
outfit on because the people,
the doors that had
the red doors,
people knew not to come in.
Now Little Red Riding
Hood's mother is going
to have to stay in the city.
And she's going to send her
daughter to the grandmother.
So she gives her
everything that she has.
She gives her the food,
she gives her the cheese,
and sends her through.
Now, other people are going to
come along that I don't like,
and I'm not going to
go through all of that.
But your basic racists will
come along and say well,
the Wolf was going to
get-- the Wolf was not.
Nobody-- she got through
to her grandmother.
Which is where you go when
everything else goes wrong.
>> Carla Hayden: It's true.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
You put your red on.
And you recognize okay, I am
a part, I am to be left alone.
So I have my students
looking at the folk tales.
And looking at them differently.
The folk tales are not
just oh, isn't she cute?
Isn't this, you know,
Walt Disney, or--
you look at Snow White.
And you know, Snow White
and the Seven Dwarves.
And it's like Snow
White met the prince.
Well, Snow White didn't wake
up until she had the baby.
And that's what we
have to remember.
So, we have to say oh,
let's talk about that.
So I just try to get
my students to think
about what they're hearing.
And of course, being a black
American, I know not all,
but quite a few of
the spirituals.
And I keep wanting, and I'm
hoping some of my students,
one of my students will, that
someone will put together,
will research the combination
of the spirituals
and the folk tales.
And how the people who in
both cases, as we both know,
were illiterate, got the
stories told to their children
so that their children
could be safe.
>> Carla Hayden: Ms. Nikki,
I wish I could take a class.
You are changing the way to even
think at children's literature
and what we think and it's
just exciting to hear it.
And I think that three decades,
your classes are
probably all filled
up before they even go on.
They probably have
a waiting line.
I have to ask you, and
I want to tell people
to send in your questions.
Because I could go all night.
So you send in your questions,
everybody that's streaming.
Could you-- would you read
one of your favorites,
another favorite
from your new book?
If you wouldn't mind.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
One of my favorites.
Because all poets
write love poems.
Because we're always
falling in love.
And I ask my students,
by the way,
I've already written this book.
But I did ask my students
if you weren't a human
being, what would you be?
And I know what I would be.
If I weren't human, you know,
I got a call and God said okay,
Nikki, you-- we're tired
of you being a human
being, what you want to be?
I would want to be rain.
Because rain changes
and becomes everything.
And everybody loves rain.
Even though it can be--
rain can be pretty serious,
but I would want to be rain.
And that's how I ended up with
a book called Make Me Rain.
And it's-- this is one of
my favorite love poems.
Make me rain.
Turn me into a snowflake.
Let me rest on your tongue.
Let me make me a piece
of ice so I can cool you.
Let me be the cloud
that embraces you,
or the quilt that keeps you dry.
Snuggle close, listen to me sing
on the windowsill,
make me rain on you.
And I just think that's--
>> Carla Hayden: You
can tell you love it
because you're smiling
and everything.
That's wonderful.
And you love-- are there
certain poems that speak
to you even more
and make you smile?
Are there some that
make you cry?
>> Nikki Giovanni: There
are some songs that do.
One of them is Quilt.
I read a lot about quilts.
But I don't have it with
me, Carla, I'm sorry.
>> Carla Hayden: We don't want
to see you cry right
now, so that's okay.
We don't want you to cry.
We-- we'll pick up that one and
we'll make sure that we do that.
Because the emotion
that goes into it.
Do you feel after
you've been writing
or do you sometimes
you're smiling
and sometimes you're crying.
Do you have to take a nap?
Or is that when the
champagne comes out?
>> Nikki Giovanni:
I do nap sometimes.
I remind my students as I
would remind whoever's with us
on this, you are
your first reader.
So the first person
that has to be satisfied
with what you've written is you.
And you have to keep
that in mind.
You're not writing for anybody
else, you're writing for you.
So, even Make Me Rain, but
especially, we were talking
about Those Who Stayed.
Those Who Stayed
brings tears to my eyes
because that was not only
dangerous but it was sad.
And Kwame Dawes, whose poetry
I think is so wonderful,
and Kwame talks about
finding a body in the tree.
And having to wipe the sweat
off, the spit off that body.
And you had to do things.
And then you still had
to find a way to go on.
And that'll make you cry.
You listen to some of the
stories that get told.
But we also know that
there were fun things.
That there are things
that make you, you know,
that are going to
make you smile.
And so you have to
take both of them.
And I talk about in this
book, I talk a lot about song.
Because music is
so important to me.
And you talk about-- and I've
often wondered, I have no way
of knowing, of course, what
did Jesus singing as he was
on the cross waiting
to transition?
What was that song?
And I know that there had to
be, because what do you do?
You have to be-- you had
to be humming something.
And the Roman soldier who
threw, they said it was a sword,
but it couldn't have
been a sword,
because swords are too heavy.
It would have split him.
It had to be just a regular
knife, you know, a little knife.
But how did he know that
Jesus had transitioned?
He had to know because
there was no more music.
So where did the music go?
And so that's what
I've been working on,
that's what I'm--
I'm just curious.
So he had to-- Jesus passed
the music to somebody.
All I know is that we're
the people who's singing it.
So I think it's [inaudible].
I think it's--
>> Carla Hayden:
That's really something.
And as I'm a children's
librarian,
so I love your book Rosa.
And it's been a compliment
to the Library
of Congress's exhibit Rosa
Parks, In Her Own Words.
And the exhibit is online.
And there are rarely
seen materials from her
that give you an
intimate view of her.
Including her yoga poses
and things like that.
And you've written about her.
And actually knew her.
And could you talk about
your relationship with her,
because you have poems.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
Well, I knew her.
And I don't talk a lot about
my relationship with a lot
of the famous people I know,
because otherwise,
it's not fair.
They don't want to talk to you.
But I will share this
one story about Ms. Parks
which is really funny.
When she had moved
up to Detroit.
And I had an opportunity
to see her.
Ms. Parks, as you
know, was a tea drinker
and I'm a coffee drinker.
And we was there, you
know, I was having coffee.
And I said to her, you know,
Ms. Parks, it's amazing
when I think about your life.
That you only made one mistake.
And Ms. Parks is a
very cool person.
Everybody who knows you,
you know, will tell you
that she could take anything.
So-- but her face dropped.
It kind of caught her off guard.
And she said well, what
would that be, baby?
And I said you went AKA.
Because I'm a Delta.
>> Carla Hayden: That's
right, you're a proud Delta.
A proud Delta.
>> Nikki Giovanni: My
sorority sisters, I mean,
we get a big kick out
of it, because AKA's,
you know, older than Delta.
After all.
Now you've got a
vice president, AKA.
And it wouldn't have happened
if the Deltas hadn't decided
yeah, we're going to march.
No matter, Susan B.
Anthony's, you know,
didn't want the Deltas to march.
She didn't want any black women.
>> Carla Hayden: No,
they were in the back.
They were in the back.
>> Nikki Giovanni: We
said, we're going to march.
We don't care where
we have to march.
We know that it's
important to march.
And of course, one of the
most important people,
period, was Fannie Lou Hamer.
Ms. Hamer was so important.
When she told Lyndon Johnson,
I didn't come here
for no two seats.
And went back to Mississippi.
When she had, as you know,
formed the Mississippi
Freedom Democratic Party.
And Lyndon Johnson wanted her
to accept two seats and kind of,
you know, we'll forget about it.
And she told the President
of the United States
of America we didn't come
here for no two seats.
And you have to love Ms.
Hamer for things like that.
You know? And of course,
you-- my sorority sister,
Barbara Jordan, who
was a great woman,
and is one of the
reasons we were able
to get rid of Richard Nixon.
So, you know, you really need,
you know, you need some--
>> Carla Hayden: You
need those women!
You need those women.
Well the questions
are coming in.
And Nick asked one that I had
already asked you to read one
of your favorite poems
from your new book.
And so is there another
one that you really like?
Your second.
>> Nikki Giovanni: Well,
I really like quite a bit.
I had a boyfriend.
And his name was Nate.
And Nate, I'm going to look
for the poem while I find it.
Nate ran numbers.
And I don't know if, you know,
you have to be a certain
age to run numbers.
But Nate ran numbers.
And I don't know why
my mother liked him
and why she trusted him,
I really, really don't.
But I like the blues.
And my mother would let me go,
I could actually date Nate.
And she would let me go out.
And Big Maybelle, I'm going
to find it because I--
>> Carla Hayden: Big Maybelle?
Was a blues singer?
>> Nikki Giovanni: Oh
yeah, the blues singer.
Big Maybelle.
And Nate decided-- and he heard
that Big Maybelle was going
to be at-- over in Newport.
Cincinnati had the clean music
and Newport had the dirty.
And Nate asked my mother could
he take me to hear the blues.
And Mommy said yes.
I don't know why she
said yes, I really don't.
Because she should
have known better.
But I went.
I didn't drink then.
Actually, I didn't really
and I talk about alcohol,
but I didn't really drink until
I came here to Virginia Tech.
But-- it's the truth.
It's what?
>> Carla Hayden:
It sounds like--
I hear some editorializing
there going on.
It sounds like Mr. Nate
was a smooth operator,
if he could run numbers,
impress your mom.
He was quite something.
>> Nikki Giovanni: Yeah,
everybody knew Nathan.
This is-- I'm looking for
the one on Big Maybelle.
I'm having trouble finding it.
>> Carla Hayden:
Well, that's okay.
When you find it, because--
>> Nikki Giovanni: It's
right here, I know.
I have my hand on the blues.
>> Carla Hayden:
[Inaudible] Big Maybelle.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
Well, you sound--
Big Maybelle is the one who said
candy, they call my sugar candy.
And I always-- we went
to the night club.
And we walked in, everybody
knew Nate, of course,
because Nate ran their numbers.
And I sat down and I
honored a gin fizz.
>> Carla Hayden: Oh my.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
It's not really--
>> Carla Hayden: This
was quite a joint, huh?
>> Nikki Giovanni:
I had a gin fizz.
And Big Maybelle,
and she was big.
She walked out on that
stage, you know, candy,
I call my sugar candy.
And of course, we--
I loved the blues.
I loved her singing that.
And it was wonderful that--
I was sorry that they
cleaned up the blues.
Let me share this
particular poem, though.
This is the other
side of the blues.
Because everybody wants
to make the blues sad.
And there's nothing
sad about the blues.
Some folk think the
blues is a song.
Or a way of singing.
But the blues is history.
A way of telling
how we got here.
And who sent us.
The blues may talk about my
man or my woman, who left me
and took my money and is gone,
but what they mean is I was
stolen in an African War
and incrementally stolen.
Probably not realizing to a
new world, but the lord is good
and gave us a song
to tell our story.
We sang the blues in the
cotton fields, not to complain
about our lives, but to let each
other know we are still here.
We started the blues
in our stews
to give us the strength
to go on.
And lord have mercy,
we use the blues
to give us the strength
to make us laugh.
To teach us how to love.
And dance.
And run away.
And much more, thank
the lord, how to stay.
Until the next day.
The blues is our
history, our quilt.
The way we fry our chickens,
the way we boil our greens,
the way we make some really
good something to drink.
The blues is our encyclopedia.
And no matter who
tries to copy us,
only we know the real
meaning of those songs.
And I just love that.
The blues singing.
Just think about it right now.
The spirituals.
They used to-- think about the
spirituals that say God's going
to set this world on fire.
Yes, yes, yes, God's going
to set this world on fire.
One of these days.
And I like that one
of these days.
Hallelujah.
And now we look and
the world is on fire.
And then 200 years ago
they were saying that.
God's going to set
this world on fire.
And I just love the spirituals.
And the blues, I just
love what we have done.
And how our youngsters
have to learn to listen
to what the old people
are saying.
What the ancestors are saying.
Not, you know, they need to
get off Facebook and Twitter,
and you know, all of that stuff.
They need to come back to say
what did I learn in church?
What did my grandmother, my
great grandmother teach me?
What have I learned?
And they need to be proud
of what they've learned.
>> Carla Hayden:
And this question,
this leads into a
question from Terrence.
Who wants to know how do you
feel about the new poets,
like Amanda Gorman, and how they
are inspiring new poetry lovers?
I mean that was a phenomena.
Poetry took over for a while.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
I think that--
I'm very proud to see
any youngster coming up.
So I was looking at Amanda
and I think she did a
really wonderful job.
Her poem was wonderful.
And I was glad to
see that she is--
or was, I don't know
what is now,
number one, I think, on Amazon.
That people-- but I
really have to say,
you know, poetry was not lost.
It-- in all fairness
to all of the poets.
Going, you know, [inaudible],
who did Maya Angelou,
I Know Why the Caged
Bird Sings, [inaudible].
We were going to get this.
Where did we get,
you know, Incident,
by you know, Countee Cullen.
Everybody knows I was on
a subway in London and one
of the-- they have
long, you know, lines.
And they're saying things there.
And one of the poems there
was I've known rivers.
My soul has grown
deep like the rivers.
We've got in London, and I guess
that was like 20 years ago,
but we have Langston Hughes.
So, I'm glad that people
are listening to poetry.
But we've never not had poetry.
And poetry has evolved.
Poetry has evolved into blues,
poetry has evolved through,
I should say, blues.
And through, of course, jazz.
And I'm really proud
of the rappers.
I think one of the great
losses, by the way,
was the loss of Tupac Shakur.
Because Tupac has not
just energy and courage,
but he had something
to teach us.
And he did that.
And that's one reason
he was assassinated.
He did his job.
And so, we-- I'm glad that
poetry is getting some attention
from some of the people who
perhaps did not pay attention.
But some of us have
always, not just me, Nikki,
but poetry's always been--
has always had its fair
share of attention.
>> Carla Hayden: Tupac Shakur,
just as a little side note,
at 16, won a contest at the
Enoch Pratt Free Library
in Baltimore when he was
at the school for the arts.
He won the rap contest
and it was a library rap.
And they have it in a vault,
right next to their
Edgar Allen Poe material.
Okay, you got Tupac and Poe.
Together. And that-- so.
Question, Cornelia, wants you
to talk about your recordings.
And what do you love
about hearing a poem
as opposed to reading a poem?
>> Nikki Giovanni: I like both.
And I was a friend,
and I miss her
so much, too, of Nina Simone.
And one of Nina's favorite songs
was Night Song, which is one
of the songs for those of us my
age from the play Golden Boy.
If you remember Golden Boy--
you might remember Golden Boy.
And Night Song is
really a sweet--
it's really a spiritual
in its own way.
And I am working
with Javon Johnson.
And we are doing spirituals.
We-- he and I were talking
about, it was one of those
like oh, we ought
to do an album.
And so are.
And I think that it will be
out-- it will start to come out,
I should say, in October.
But I said to Javon, the
only way I can do this,
and I have no-- I cannot sing--
is that I'm allowed to sing,
I want to sing Night Song.
And I wanted to sing
it for Nina.
Because I remembered
Nina, I loved Nina,
and I wanted her remembered.
I don't think that Nina
is remembered the way
that she should be.
And Night Song is
such a sweet song.
So I like to hear it all.
I like to hear people read
it, I love to, you know,
Margaret Walker and
I were very close.
I love-- you could not hear
for my people by anybody,
any better, than Margaret.
I mean, Margaret,
she was wonderful.
We would cook together,
by the way.
And Margaret could cook.
>> Carla Hayden: Really?
>> Nikki Giovanni: So it
was always a lot of fun.
Going down to Mississippi.
She's in Jackson.
And you know, Mississippi
has now finally put her
on the writer's rail.
>> Carla Hayden: Good.
>> Nikki Giovanni: Because for
the longest they didn't want any
black writers.
So, Jackson, has finally--
Jackson, they finally got
them to make them do that.
And Margaret Walker
is a part of that.
>> Carla Hayden: Right there
with Harper Lee and all of that.
Good, because-- and just
hearing you talk about all
of the people you
had experiences with,
it sounds like it was
not just a sisterhood,
but a community of support, too.
>> Nikki Giovanni: I think so.
And then, again, one of the
things-- I have a bad memory,
so one of the things I know
that everybody knew in talking
to me was that they
could tell me anything
and it wasn't going any place.
Because I wasn't
trying to use anybody.
And I have my papers
at Boston University.
So when those papers come out,
everybody's going
to go oh my god.
But I could listen to people.
And I could share with them.
And I think that
that was important.
And the people that I loved, I
don't know how else to say this,
Carla, but the people
that I loved, I loved.
And the people that
I didn't, I didn't.
And so it recently came
up, somebody asked me
about another singer
who is still with us.
And they said oh, you
know, she's going to come,
I said I hate her, because I do.
I think she's now [inaudible].
But I said, you know,
I don't mind being me.
And so I was very fortunate
that I had good friends.
And that the people
who were my friends,
and I mentioned Margaret,
because I used to fly down.
My son and me.
I used to fly down to Jackson.
Because Margaret was
always a comfort.
She's like your grandma.
And I lost my grandmother,
I got Margaret.
But some other people that
I knew, that I was close to,
that Toni Morrison and I
could sit all afternoon
and probably say three words.
Because it was just
whatever it was, you know?
We were friends.
It was just the comfort of
the friendship and knowing
that nobody, I'm not-- we're
not trying to use each other.
And you do get tired
of people trying
to use you, that's the truth.
And so you're always looking for
somebody who cares about you.
And I think it's only fair, and
I know, you know, that we say--
everybody say Jesus
loves everybody.
But Jesus couldn't love
everybody, it's not possible.
It's illogical.
And so, I want to
love who loves me.
And I want to dislike the
people that I dislike.
>> Carla Hayden: That's good.
That's good.
And not feel guilty about it.
Just it is, there you go.
Well, we're running--
and I'm really,
we're running out of time.
But so I wanted to end with
the question from Lisa.
Who says I am a teacher for
elementary inner city scholars.
How would you motivate our
young readers to connect
with the daily experiences
of life
and to put those into words?
>> Nikki Giovanni: I would--
my first suggestion is your
young reader probably doesn't
care about the daily
experiences of life.
That's something that you
get to when you're older.
Why not deal with the
imaginative experiences?
What are you-- if you wouldn't
be, I don't know, what,
you know, you say
elementary, if you wouldn't be
in the fifth grade,
what would you be?
If you could be your puppy or
your cat, or if you could be--
if you could be a baker?
Why can't you be
what you imagine?
We're not asking you
to change the world,
we're not asking
you to know that.
You will eventually know things.
You will eventually.
I was talking about,
you know, the diseases.
You will eventually
remember what COVID did.
But we know more,
remember, COVID right now,
then we do the Spanish, what
it's called, the Spanish flu,
which we don't know why.
Every disease is
always somebody else.
It's never the American,
it's never, you know--
>> Carla Hayden:
That's a good point.
>> Nikki Giovanni:
You know, murderer.
It's never anything
that makes sense.
It's always going
to be somebody else.
So let's talk about, you
know, if you could be what?
If you could be a bird.
If you could be a hummingbird.
Let them be their imagination.
And praise them for it.
Because they should be allowed
to be something else, you know?
I wouldn't want to be a fly
because people tend
to hit flies.
But then maybe, if I were a
fly, if I had another friend
who was a fly and we had a--
I don't know, I would like,
if I were going to be a little
four legged, I would certainly
like to be a little mouse.
I think that mice are so cute.
And they're so sweet.
And they have such
a nice community.
And my favorite book is Mrs.
Frisby and the Rats of NIMH.
>> Carla Hayden: Oh, right.
>> Nikki Giovanni: I love that.
So let them be something else.
They don't have to be
reality, they don't have
to be what is happening.
Because one day, what's
happening will be what is.
Let them be happy with it now.
I don't know if that's a
good answer, I'm sorry.
>> Carla Hayden: It
is a very good answer.
And let them think about
what they could be.
Maybe the daily experiences,
let them get out of that.
And give them a chance to
imagine and think about things.
And those things
might help them.
Because you-- Ms. Nikki,
you have certainly
helped us tonight.
And I can't thank you enough
for answering questions
and being part of this.
You've got a package coming of
books for me, you know that,
and I just thank you so much.
And thank everyone that's been
watching, for your questions,
for Lisa and Terrence, and
the National Book Festival.
It's going to continue tomorrow.
And there are live events.
So just go on the
website, LOC.gov/bookfest.
So thank you, Ms. Nikki,
and thank everyone
for being with us.
And have a safe and good night.
>> Nikki Giovanni: Thank you.
It's been a pleasure.
[ Music ]