[ Music ] >> Speaker 1: Sponsored by the Institute of Museum and Library Services. [ Music ] >> Liv Aspholm: Hi. I'm Liv Aspholm, and welcome to the 2021 National Book Festival. I recently graduated from Liberty Bell High School in Winthrop, Washington. And I served as a student ambassador in the spring 2021 grab the mic tour with Library of Congress national ambassador for young people's literature Jason Reynolds. Today I'm interviewing Kekla Magoon about her new book "Revolution in Our Time: The Black Panther Party's Promise to the People." Kekla, thank you for being here. Can you tell us a little bit about your book? >> Kekla Magoon: Sure. So I'm really excited about this book. It is "Revolution in Our Time." This is the advanced copy. And it will be out in September. This is a nonfiction book about the history and legacy of the Black Panther party. And most people don't know that much about the Black Panther party. If they know anything, they've maybe seen on snapshot image of black men with guns and berets and leather jackets in the civil rights era. And, you know, their reputation has often been one of violence and being scary and threatening. And the truth of the matter is that that snapshot image of the panthers is very, very wrong. It's very -- one very, very tiny part of what the organization was, what the organization tried to be, what the organization's goals and vision were within the civil rights landscape. And so this is a book that talks about the history of black America. So American history as told through the lens of blackness from the time the first black people were brought to the shores of this continent against their will and up through the civil rights era in which leaders like the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Junior and Rosa Parks and tons and tons of young activists, teens and college aged people, made moves for social justice, for equality, and against segregation and police brutality and so on. And throughout all of that history, throughout all of those protests, they were consistently met with violence from police, from white supremacists, from society at large, and from the systems of our country. And the panthers emerged in 1966 out of Oakland, California with the intent to fight back in a variety of ways against that oppression. And so the panthers did arm themselves with weapons to defend their community against police brutality, but they also armed themselves with education and community activism. They worked with unions. They worked with tenants' rights and housing rights. They founded health clinics and schools and ran political education programs, voters' rights. They were a political party running candidates for office. And so there's this huge rich dynamic landscape of organizing that happened under the umbrella of the panthers and they met a huge amount of repression from the United States government and from the FBI in particular in response to that community organizing, those black people rising up and saying, "We're not going to wait for the establishment to take care of us. We're going to start taking care of ourselves." And that idea was very, very threatening. And we can see mirrors of what the panthers did in their time frame in our own time frame now in the black lives matter movement and all of the protests that have happened around the country in recent years in response to the continued police brutality and systemic oppression that black people face in our country. And so this book is the story of that entire history. Where we've been. How we got here today. And how the Black Panther party can be a model potentially for the organizing that still needs to happen today and is happening in the hands of young people. >> Liv Aspholm: Yeah. Obviously the picture that was painted of the Black Panther party is not at all what they truly stood for. So could you talk a little about like why were you interested in writing the book, and did you really want to express how they -- what their true goals were within this book? And how do you feel like you did that? >> Kekla Magoon: Absolutely. That was definitely the goal, to just paint a fuller picture of who the panthers were beyond that single snapshot of black men with guns and leather jackets and berets. First of all, the organization was more than half women by the time it reached its peak, and that's something that very few people know. And I -- you know, I found out about the panthers about a little over a decade ago when I was a grant writer in New York City and I was fundraising for a program that would provide food for kids after school. And so I was searching for funders for this food program for kids, and I ran across an article about the history of the Black Panther party's free breakfast program for schoolchildren. And at the time I didn't know much at all about the Black Panther party beyond that snapshot that I described. And so I thought, "That doesn't sound right. That can't be true." The Black Panthers had a free breakfast program for schoolchildren? But I'm a curious sort of person so I clicked on the link and I said, "Okay. What's this about?" And I read the article, and my mind was just blown by the information about the panthers. And I had studied the civil rights movement my whole life. I loved reading historical fiction. I could recite Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech that he gave at the march on Washington. And I -- I was ashamed and angry that I didn't know anything about the panthers, that I had mistrusted that history and that I had believed what I had been told which was that -- about them which was very, very limited. And so I kind of just I got really angry about the fact that I could have gone to high school and college in this country and not learned anything at all about the panthers and the real story behind who they were and what they tried to do for black communities. And so that really fueled me to write a novel. And so my very first novel which was published in 2009 is "The Rock and the River" and it's about a boy whose father's a civil rights activist, and then his older brother joins the Black Panther party and my character feels caught between these two seemingly opposite ideals of change. And of course he then realizes that they're not as opposite as he thought. But when that book came out a lot of teachers and librarians were sharing it with their students, and I kept getting the question, "We're so intrigued by the panthers because of this novel. How can we find out more? How can our students find out more about the real history?" And at the time there just wasn't a good resource targeted to teen readers about the Black Panther party. And so I actually started working on this nonfiction project all those years ago to try to answer that question and to respond to that question. And it's been a huge project and, you know, challenging to get published because the perception of the panthers is really pervasive in our culture. But that absolutely was the intention. I want to tell the full story and share something that wasn't shared with me when I was in middle school or high school. >> Liv Aspholm: Yeah. Within the book kind of towards the end you mention -- I mean you interviewed people who were actually part of the Black Panther party. Was there any especially unique or interesting moment during those interviews that you could share? >> Kekla Magoon: I think I have met a wide range of panthers. I've been to events. I've watched documentaries. I've met with some of them. I attended the 50th anniversary celebration of the party back in 2016 out in Oakland where the panthers were founded, and at that time I did get the opportunity to speak with some of the original panthers and the leaders of the party. And I met with Ericka Huggins. That was I think my favorite sort of moment was having coffee with Ericka Huggins in a community center in Oakland. And the moment -- the moment that I remember specifically from that interview that was powerful to me was that, you know, I was using language -- so I said something like, you know, oh -- you know, "What do you think is the most important, you know, thing people should know about the role women played in the Black Panther party?" And she just looked at me and she said, "Not the role women played," she said. "Women were the party." You know, she said, "No one would ever say what role men played in something." Right? She said -- >> Liv Aspholm: Actually I underlined that moment in the book. I was like -- I was going to ask you about that. Like the women -- she said, "We were the party. We were such an -- we weren't the role. We were the party." Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. >> Kekla Magoon: Yeah. Absolutely. And so I mean it was like one of those moments like I'm describing it now even like I kind of get chills and I got chills in that moment. And of course I was -- you know, I was really flustered. I mean I was really sort of overwhelmed to be even talking with her. And I, you know -- she was like clearly sort of correcting me. Right? In a very, you know, "I am your elder, and this is the way of things." You know, sort of tone. And I mean I simultaneously loved that because I want that education, right, and I also was like, "Oh, my god. I said something wrong." And like, you know -- so I was quickly trying to be like, "No. No. No. I understand. I understand." And sort of trying to say, "No. I really meant something else." But after the moment, right, when I reflected on it later, I was just thinking about how -- just how powerful and pervasive misogyny really is in our culture because even I who was deliberately trying to show the role -- again here I am, right, the role that women played in -- and deliberately trying to do that, and yet I still have this sort of language internalized that it is a separate thing. It's a special thing. It's, you know, I'm going to do something separate about the women. Right? The party is one thing, but then we talk about the women in this other place. And so I did work really hard in the book to -- to not do that. I think that it's important to address the many layers and complications of gender issues that arose in the party. And I do that in the book, but I also tried really hard to sort of strip some of that othering language and sort of secondary language around the women in the party. >> Liv Aspholm: Women were jailed. Women led protests. Women were leaders in the party. It's -- yeah. It's the same for both. To that extent, do you -- obviously in this book you try to do that to kind of erase that misogyny part. Can you talk about how were women the party? And can you talk about how I mean they were sort of a vanguard in that? And can you talk a little bit about that? >> Kekla Magoon: Yeah. So just in terms of sheer membership numbers, you know, later in the party the just numbers of people that were involved were more strongly women. And so it's hard actually now to get accurate numbers of who participated for so many reasons. Right? A lot of records were destroyed in the police raids and things like that, but also people participated in the party on a number of levels. There were people who kind of took an oath to be panthers for life and that they were giving, you know -- essentially willing to give their lives for the party. And then there were a lot of people who sort of volunteered, right, who came by the community center, who attended the political education, who served breakfast. Right? There were lots of different kind of levels of participation. There were people who simply shared the news about the panthers, people who sold newspapers. Right? There were all kinds of participation. And so across those different roles the majority of people who participated were women. You know, some people say about half, some people say closer to 2/3. It's tricky to get fixed numbers. And so, you know, for me it was looking at things like, you know, the language the panthers used themselves. In the very beginning of the organization Huey Newton and Bobby Seale were talking about the brothers on the block. They were talking about, you know, they wanted to reach very disenfranchised angry frustrated, you know, the system has let us down young men specifically like themselves. And so they used this language the brothers on the block, the brothers on the block. And yet, you know, one of the first people to show up to join the panthers was Tarika Lewis, a young woman from high school in Oakland. And she, you know, was ready to do everything that they asked of her. She was ready to do everything that the young men were ready to do. And so, you know, she was one of the people who helped open up the organization. And as they went on they were really clear about wanting to create equality within the organization around gender issues. There were many women who were leaders of the party. At one point Elaine Brown was the chairwoman of the entire party taking Huey Newton's place when he had to leave the country. And, you know, it -- it's complicated to try to disengage the misogyny and patriarchy of our entire society from the specific experience of the panthers. And one of the things that has happened a lot is people have specifically pointed to the panthers and said, "Oh, look at, you know, all of these things that happened," right, between individuals in the party that evidenced misogyny or evidenced, you know, violence against women or evidenced, you know, the patriarchy and so forth. Right? There were a lot of things that happened that fit that narrative. But there are a lot of things across society that fit that narrative. And so I think that the panthers were not, you know, more misogynistic than anybody else. In fact, I think they were less misogynistic and working really hard to overcome misogyny, but they were still steeped in it within our culture because that's the way that our culture has been and the effort to overturn that is, you know, bigger than a single organization. And so it was -- I was looking for a balance of talking about the ways that women led the organization, the ways that women were challenged within the organization, and the ways that gender dovetails with the civil rights organizing that we're doing across the board. >> Liv Aspholm: You mentioned earlier when you were speaking about the importance of rhetoric, when you were saying the brothers on the block, what -- throughout the book there were definitely moments where rhetoric was super important to kind of cause a specific reaction within the widespread audience of America. Could you expand a little bit more on that? >> Kekla Magoon: Yeah. I definitely think that the panthers were a vanguard in that respect as well. They had a really strong voice. If you ever have the opportunity to look at any of their historical writing or any of their newspapers, they're using really strong language. Not necessarily, you know, anything that we would call like curse words, right, or anything like that. Like they weren't using language that would necessarily be censored. Right? Like that kind of language, bad language. But they were using really, really aggressive imagery. They were using really sort of striking propaganda art to promote that rhetoric. They did things like calling police officers pigs and drawing them as such. They -- but they also used, you know, really specific vocabulary. They talked about avaricious politicians which essentially means greedy politicians. And they used, you know, other language like that that was really, really targeted. They talked a lot about oppression. They talked about, you know, systemic racism in ways that Malcolm X had talked about in the early 1960s and the panthers picked up a lot of his rhetoric and a lot of his messages. And I think it's hard in this day and age when we look back at that time to realize how fresh and new that discussion was at the time. People were talking about segregation in the 1960s. People were talking about prejudice in the 1960s. People were talking about discrimination to a certain extent. But people weren't really talking about systemic racism. The term racism, the idea about -- the idea of certain behavior being racist, right, was not really something that people talked about until the civil rights era, until the panthers came along and started talking about, you know, essentially racist pigs. And using phrases like that, like that term racism and racist. Were not as -- anywhere near as common as they are now. And so I think that there are ways that the rhetoric of the black power movement -- the panthers, but the black power movement broadly speaking advanced and changed the way that we use language to talk about the issues of bias and discrimination and prejudice. And yes, systemic racism. Like that phrasing and that like ideology, frankly, is codified in a lot of the Black Panthers literature and a lot of the writing about them. And that's, I think, part of why they were so reviled because they were talking about our power structure. They were talking about our government. They were talking about the systems that we are sort of mired in that we can't always see how they're operating. You know, we are the fish, and it is the water. >> Liv Aspholm: Right. Do you believe that the Black Panther party ultimately succeeded in their goal? I mean I know they had their 10 point plan obviously. I mean part of that is, you know, end police brutality. We see George Floyd. We see Breonna Taylor. It's not ended. But do you believe that to a certain degree they did succeed in what they were seeking? >> Kekla Magoon: I think it's both a yes and a no. I think that they succeeded in a lot of micro ways. They succeeded in transforming a lot of individual lives within communities. They succeeded in creating a model for organizing and, you know, this was something that was functional and successful in communities around the country. There are free health clinics that the panthers founded that are still operational today. They've just had their names changed and become, you know, separate nonprofit organizations and -- but they're still serving communities here in our country. And so, you know, the panther leaders have gone on to, you know, continue the work. They're, you know, speaking and sharing about their experiences and, you know, taking a leadership role in the social justice movements that are happening now. I think -- so I do think that they succeeded in a lot of ways. I think that they changed the landscape. I think that they moved the needle on a lot of policies that wouldn't have otherwise happened. Some of the policies that happened because of them are, you know -- were intended to repress them. Right? We have a lot more gun control laws in this country than we did before the panthers were active. And, you know, that is a conversation that has evolved in a lot of different ways over time. So but there are systemic and long lasting impacts of what they did that we're still seeing today. And at the same time they weren't able to achieve a lot of what they wanted to, and what I think they could have achieved if no one had stood in their way. But the fact of the matter was there was a whole counter intelligence program operated by the FBI that was deliberately designed to undermine and destroy them and give them the bad reputation that they continue to have. And so I think that they -- you know, they succeeded in kind of kicking the hornet's nest of the U.S government, but they got pretty badly stung in the process. And so, you know, I don't think you can call their entire movement the victory that they hoped it would be, but I think that they definitely -- like we wouldn't be as far along in civil rights progress today as, you know -- if they hadn't existed. >> Liv Aspholm: Could -- mentioning the government, can you talk a little bit about the counter intelligence or COINTELPRO and its role in the dissolution of the party? >> Kekla Magoon: Yeah. So the counter intelligence program nicknamed COINTELPRO, as you mentioned, was a program that was essentially it was founded by the FBI to oppose communism and socialism within this country. And so they were very active during the Cold War and trying to essentially undermine any organizations that were looking to create social change and looking to, you know, sort of push the government in -- to provide for the people in the ways that socialism demanded. And -- and it was, you know, late -- mid to late '50s that they were active pursuing some other programs. Some other communist situations. And then organizations. And then they turned their attention to the civil rights movement, to the black power movement, and the majority of the COINTELPRO operations ultimately targeted the Black Panther party. They also targeted the American Indian movement. You know, they followed the civil rights movement leaders like Dr. King as well. Then they sought to undermine the work that they were doing. They specifically wanted to prevent people from joining the organizations. They wanted to what they called neutralize the leaders of the organization. In some cases that meant discrediting them. In some cases it meant jailing them for a variety of reasons. In some cases it meant assassinations. And they wanted to just disrupt and destroy any progress that was happening. They did this in a number of ways. They used a lot of wire taps. They used informants. They paid, you know, people, black people, to participate in the organization and then report to the FBI. They made sort of disinformation campaigns where they would send letters. You know, this was -- this was all before email. Right? Everything was done by letters and the snail mail. And so they would fabricate letters and mail them to people to try to create, you know, pretending it was someone else, trying to create tension, you know. Oh, so and so's trying to kill you. You know, just a heads up that so and so's trying to kill you. You know, to create tension between leaders where there wouldn't have otherwise been tension. And, you know, it's the kind of thing where, you know, today, right, you can text your friend and be like, "Hey, you trying to kill me?" But back then you couldn't do that. Right? Because your friend might have been across the country and you couldn't just pick up a phone. Right? Because it just wasn't the way that things worked. And so it was very I think easy for them to create that kind of distrust among the leaders. And so they did that to great effect, and ultimately, you know, they fomented enough distrust within the organization that people -- it was hard for the organization to stay together. And then, you know, they did things like raiding offices and burning things down. And, you know, arresting people constantly. And I suspect also some agitation. Right? Like the panthers are credited -- I don't know if credited is the right word, but they have been accused of committing a variety of crimes in their own name. And they did some of that, but also I think some of it was done by police officers sort of pretending to be panthers to try to give them a bad reputation. And so there was a lot of uncertainty around what the government was really doing, but a huge batch of records was released after the panthers essentially ended, and you know we can under the Freedom of Information Act -- you can see a lot of the paperwork and the memos that went back and forth that literally say things like, you know, "We need to neutralize these leaders. We need to ensure that nobody joins these organizations. We need to do everything in our power to prevent so and so from interacting with so and so." It was just -- it was -- it's shocking, really, given the fact that, you know, what they were doing was feeding breakfast to schoolchildren and founding schools and health clinics and -- that that was so threatening to the establishment that they literally went out and had people killed and, you know, stole food from little kids. >> Liv Aspholm: Sort of thinking about COINTELPRO and how they had a role in kind of, you know, skewing the image of the Black Panther party a certain way, what lessons or what lesson do you think interpretation of the Black Panther party offers for the way we read or relate to history? >> Kekla Magoon: Yeah. I think -- so I think what it does is it illuminates the need for multiple perspectives on history. You know, if J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI at the time, was to write a history of -- in this era, he's going to write it very, very differently than Bobby Seale or Huey Newton. Right? The founders of the Black Panther party. And so what has happened traditionally, historically, is that the people who have been able to write history, the people who have been able to publish books, the people whose word has been respected in the media, the people whose version of history has been recorded are white men with a lot of power. Traditionally. Broadly speaking. Sure, we can point to exceptions and examples going all the way back, you know, but by and large, right, the way that we tell our nation's history is through the lens of relatively successful white men and what their experience has been and what their understanding of our nation has been. And so when you begin saying, "I want to hear this story told by a woman who lived in that time frame," "I want to hear this story told by a black person who lived in this time frame," "I want to hear this story told by an enslaved person and by a free black person who were contemporaries." Right? I want to hear this story told by a child. I want to hear this story told by an elder. I want to hear this story told by an immigrant. I want to hear this story -- you know, like when we look at the facts, like there are facts. There are things that specifically happened. Right? On specific days at specific times. And we can chart that through history. But there are ways to talk about the things that happened and why they happened and how they happened that are less empirical than we have been taught. And so it is -- it is important, I believe, to hear of multiple lenses on every story from history. You know. So when we look at what the Black Panthers did, every panther leader has a slightly different way of talking about what they did. And I think that that's really dynamic and interesting. And by looking at all of that together, you can paint a picture of what the organization was doing that, you know, becomes a little bit more empirical, but still is through a particular lens. And so it -- I think that when we look back at history there are a lot of assumptions that we carry. There are a lot of narratives that we perpetuate that might actually have more layers to them that might actually have more nuance. And, you know, we owe it to ourselves and to the young people that we're teaching about the history of our country -- we owe it to ourselves to explore all of those nuances and try to understand what was happening so that we can form our own perspective on the history of the country and how it became the way that it is, and really understand all of the forces that led us to the place that we are. I think that people often try to over simplify history. They want it to be a clean narrative. They want it to be a happy narrative. They want, you know, to pretend that there wasn't quite so much bloodshed or quite so much viciousness. And all of that. And all of that is part of who we are and who we have been and that we have to -- we have to be unafraid to look at that, and unafraid to confront the things that, you know, we collectively have messed up really badly. >> Liv Aspholm: Just reflecting on the book, what -- was it difficult to write the book? What -- were there any challenges that you faced? Can you talk a little bit about the writing process? >> Kekla Magoon: Sure. The - so the writing process was many stages, and was indeed very complicated. The most complicated thing was figuring out which narratives to include because there's always, you know -- to the point of perspective on history, right, there are so many things I could have chosen to point to. I'm covering, you know, 400 years of black American history in the first 4 chapters of the book. There's so many people I could have, you know, chosen to celebrate. You know, individuals that might have a biography written about them because of their contribution. I -- I had to choose. I had to narrow down. I had to summarize. I had to, you know, find the threads that carry us through from the beginning of enslavement all the way through to our current, you know -- through the [inaudible] complex, through the black lives matter protest. Right? Like how do we connect all of that together in to a single narrative that's going to make sense? And so that was structurally the challenge was to figure out what that thread was going to be and then to figure out which examples to use at every point along that narrative. And so it was very challenging. I did a lot of research. I traveled to a lot of library archives. I spent a bunch of time in Oakland a couple of different times over the years at the Oakland library, at the Oakland museum, just kind of walking the streets where the panthers had been. I went out to the courthouse, the Alameda County courthouse where all of the free Huey protests had taken place, and kind of just like stood on the grass, right, to feel the place And it definitely was, you know, a labor of many years to try to feel like I understood this history because it has been so neglected. And, you know, so I really had to dig for information in the beginning. In the last five years, I would say, much more has been published about the panthers. Must more has been written about the panthers. People are talking about them in a way that they weren't when I started this 10 years ago. So it was very much, you know, me with little white gloves in the library archive like going through newspapers and watching obscure documentaries that were, you know, buried in the library archives. And I really enjoyed that process. It was fun. I learned so much, but I was trying to knit together a narrative that would illuminate the organization for teens. And be accurate. Right? Be true to the panthers experience and true to the historical record. And so that was the process and then I basically had, you know, reams of, you know, photocopies of everything, and I just kind of poured through all of it and thought about the big picture narrative that I wanted. And, you know -- and the book ended up being longer than I expected because in order to really convey everything that the panthers were grappling with, it's just it's a lot of material. So it was -- it was fun. But it's a long book that is actually really tight for the amount of material that it covers. >> Liv Aspholm: Yeah. I really enjoyed the book, and I think it's incredible that you were part of, you know, uncovering the true history of the Black Panther party. I mean that's -- that's something that's really incredible. So thank you so much for talking with me today about your work, Kekla, and to the viewers, thank you all for joining the 2021 National Book Festival. >> Kekla Magoon: Thank you so much, Liv. This was a wonderful interview. I really enjoyed your questions and getting to talk with you about "Revolution in Our Time." >> Courtney: Hi. My name's Courtney. >> Christina: I'm Christina, and we're at the Library of Congress today. >> Courtney: This summer we worked with teens from across the country to learn more about the library and explore its unique resources, collections, and events. >> Christina: This building is so pretty. >> Courtney: Yeah. And it's open to everyone to visit. >> Christina: And you can access its resources from anywhere in the world. >> Courtney: This is your library. Take it away, Emma. >> Emma: Hi. I'm Emma in Massachusetts. The library's website has a ton of digitized materials you can access from anywhere. Just do a search and see what you can find. Whether you're completing a project or just looking for a picture, the library has hundreds upon thousands of materials ready at your fingertips. You're on, Eti. >> Eti: Hello. I'm Eti from Texas, and one of my favorite resources on the library's website is chronicling America, a searchable collection of historical newspapers. I was especially amazed by this one. College students activism during the civil rights movement. This is a fantastic resource for school research papers. Your turn, Neena. >> Hi. I'm Neena in Ohio. Do you have an undying curiosity about all things past and present? The library's website features lots of research guides. Like this research guide about past Olympics. Did you know that the Olympic games were canceled during World War I and World War II? And the 2020 Olympic games were postponed due to the COVID 19 pandemic. Now they're ongoing which is great. Take it away, Karen. >> Karen: Hi. I'm Karen from New Jersey, and I found this film of a gay pride march from 1968 fascinating. This was a year before the Stonewall uprising. There's so much to explore. And if you love history and you want to do more, you can help transcribe and tag documents to make them more accessible for others with the library's by the people project. >> Christina: As you can see, the library isn't just for people who live in D.C, researchers, and members of Congress. >> Courtney: And it has more than just books. It holds newspapers, photographs, video and sound recordings, maps, manuscripts, and more. >> Christina: And the library isn't just about the past. It celebrates things about today. Every year the National Book Festival features many authors and the stories they have to share. >> Courtney: You can connect with your favorite authors and their work by watching an interview or listening to a podcast any time or by joining a live Q and A during the festival. >> Christina: And there are also live events here at the building if you're in the Washington, D.C area. >> Courtney: So the Library of Congress is your library. >> Emma: Your library. >> Eti: Your library. >> Neena: Your library. >> Karen: Your library. >> Christina: Your library. >> Your library. [ Music ]