>> Taylor Brooks: Hello. My name is Taylor Hailey Brooks, and I am the current librarian in residence in the Latin American, Caribbean, and European Division. And today we are here to have a discussion concerning Haiti and black internationalism. This discussion accompanies a research guide crafted in the Latin American, Caribbean, and European Division at the Library of Congress. The guide provides resources for those interested in the cultural and historical contributions of Haiti in the Western Hemisphere. Today we are speaking with Dr. Brandon R. Byrd, Dr. Leslie Alexander, Dr. Jean Eddy Saint Paul, Dr. Gregory Pierrot, and Dr. Chelsea Stieber. We are excited to speak with these accomplished scholars who can help us understand the cultural and historical context of black agency in the Americas. So our first question to the scholars is: A big motivation for me and the project that I am doing here at the Library of Congress, and also as a black American, was discovering my lack of awareness about Haiti and the history of Haitians in the Americas. As I began to dive deeper in this project, I realize the power of learning more about Haitian history and how it influenced important figures in this and black history in the United States. What do you think Haiti can teach us about the global initiative for black liberation? >> Dr. Jean Eddy Saint Paul: For one, Haiti, we quiz it for the U.S., every person, no matter of your skin color, should know, for instance, about the Louisiana Purchase. Every American citizen should know that without the Louisiana Purchase, there wouldn't be the U.S. empire. Because if we found a successful Haitian revolution, so there's Napoleon Bonaparte would sell Louisiana for a piece of money to Thomas Jefferson. And you know, this is something that is very important. So and I think that black people can learn enough about it, because long before, you know, we will see that in the U.S.A. we say, "Oh, we are one nation under God," you know, liberty and freedom for all, etc. If we go to our roots and take out the Constitution of 1801 of Toussaint Louverture's, We are talking about in 1801, the very beginning of the 19th century. When we take the article reform in time of that constitution, it say we were all created equal. We should -- we were born free, we should live free endowed with our dignity. So Haiti, the history of Haiti can see to every American -- black American, or Latin American, to fight for their dignity. Also in the [inaudible] life as 1804, we will see the reaffirmation of the philosophical idea of the human dignity in the Constitution of May 20th, 1805 by Jean-Jacques Dessalines in the Article 14, where it say all would definitely be known on the [inaudible] population of black. So Haiti was the place that actually [inaudible] You know blackness in the context of austerity against blackness. Haiti also is the place that started black liberation. You know, now after, you know, the [inaudible] you know, so we have Black Lives Matter. But Black Lives Matter, we found actually really started in Haiti. So I do think that African-American or black American, they have a lot to learn about the history of Haiti. For instance, in Haiti, you will see that because of [inaudible] there is a place in Durham, North Carolina, that is called Hayti. But they -- Haiti, they were -- they [inaudible] they give to the [inaudible] of Hayti, that we -- you don't pronounce it Hayti in English. Because for them, you know, they were living in the [inaudible] of civilization, and they look at the history of Haiti, because the only place where black person can [inaudible] economically, politically, culturally, and socially. You know, and Hayti in Durham, North Carolina was the place where black people, they have, you know, economic ownership, you know. They can be themselves in the [inaudible] of hostility. Because Haiti showed the world in 1804 that you can be a black person, you can be free. You can be yourself, you know, in the [inaudible] of hostility. Because when Haiti got its independence, the international community didn't welcome Haiti as a sister nation. So also it's important for black American, for African-American to know that Haiti was a welcoming place for black people in the 19th century. [inaudible] was born in Haiti. I edited a book, "Between Two Worlds: Jean Price-Mars, Haiti and Africa," and I'm glad that this book is part of the [inaudible] of the library. But there is a chapter on this book that, you know, actually explain the connection between Haiti and the Harlem Renaissance. Many [inaudible] of Harlem Renaissance went to Haiti. They were inspired by the Haitian, you know, empowered in the Haitian, [inaudible] the Haitian food, the Haitian culture, Haitian society, Haiti and its people. Zora Neale Hurston one of the prominent figure Harlem Renaissance, it was in Haiti that she wrote her book, "Their Eyes Were Watching God." So to tell you a lot of things, you know, to -- for black people, to accept, you know, their blackness, for black people to understand they are beautiful. Because black is beautiful start in Haiti. In the contents of [inaudible] that are associated, you know, every positive thing with whiteness, and every other thing with blackness. And Haitian people said, "No, we are all equal. We are beautiful. You are beautiful, Mama," you know. So this is Mama Africa. Haiti is the representation of Mama Africa. >> Dr. Brandon R. Byrd: First thing I'll say is in large part, because education, as I think we see very clearly today, doesn't develop in a vacuum, right? It develops in relationship to, you know, what schoolboards dictate, and you know, also what parents are demanding, oftentimes in a way that can suppress things like, you know, Haitian history a very subaltern history, a history of, you know, slave rebellion. You know, so I say, like, you're not alone in that; I hear you. I hear that all the time, and I had a similar experience as well, actually, where I learned about the Haitian revolution, and Garvey, and you know, all of the, you know, these aspects of black history. It was much more so in the home, more so than at school, which I also think is not typical. When we receive these at an early age, it is more often a more organic or quote-unquote, "less formal" form of education, is the way in which we get these stories, these histories. But most immediately, to your question, what can the history of Haiti teach us as -- specifically as other black folks around, you know, in Africa and around the African diaspora? A lot, all right? A lot, yeah. And that's one of the things that, you know -- I will say, I entered, you know, my research into the academy with, you know, the assumption that oh, you know, there's something to research this. But over the course of research in the, of course the early years of, you know, my career, I think I've come to appreciate just how much we can learn from the history of Haiti. And that's because -- well, let me put it this way. Sometimes there can be the idea that Haitian history matters, because Haiti is exceptional. And it's not that. It's actually, Haitian history teaches us so much, and it matters so great because of all the connections that Haiti has to broader structures, and systems, and people, right? That it matters because -- and this is the same conclusion that many of the people that I'm very interested in, you know, the folks that people will know, like W. E. B. Du Bois this is the conclusion that they reach as well, too. That put simply, to understand Haitian history is to understand the history of empires. >> Dr. Leslie Alexander: I think -- I actually think there's a lot that Haiti can teach us, both historically and contemporarily, about the black freedom struggle. I will say for me, I think that, you know, one of the things that really forced me to make the decision to go ahead and write this book about Haiti, and about Haiti's influence on black consciousness in the United States, was the media coverage following the 2010 earthquake. With, you know, with all due respect to, you know, my journalist friends, I found the coverage of Haiti to be just simply appalling, following the earthquake. That you know, the focus was almost in a pathological way, you know, on Haiti. Why is Haiti the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere? And you know, I mean just these totally outlandish things. You know, Haiti is deforested because Haitians are eating trees. And I mean just these completely absurd representations of Haiti and Haitians, you know, that sort of pathologized Haiti as this you know, hopelessly impoverished nation governed by, you know, these black warlords that don't know how to govern themselves. And I would -- that really drove me to feel like, you know, as a historian, we have a responsibility to set the record straight. And you know, as I tell people all the time, I think it's important to remember that, you know, Haiti's current plight is not, you know, the result of some inherent pathology among Haitians or among black folks. It really has been by design that foreign intervention and foreign manipulation -- first by France and later by the United States, is really what has caused Haiti to be in its current circumstances. So I think Haiti has a lot to teach us, both positively and negatively about history and about contemporary society. On the positive side, I think Haiti -- the history of the struggle for the recognition and the right of Haiti to exist as a sovereign black nation has a lot of lessons for us, for the global black freedoms struggle. I think that -- and this is one of the things I'm hoping my book will eventually contribute to the conversation, is to really demonstrate that stemming all the way back to the 19th century, black activists in places like the United States -- and It's true in other parts of the Americas as well, but certainly in the United States, black activists understood Haiti's importance as the first sovereign black nation in the Americas and were passionately committed to defending Haiti's right to exist as a sovereign nation, were passionately committed to ensuring that the United States and other Western nations would recognize Haiti's right to sovereignty. And we're very concerned about the U.S.'s attempts to exploit Haiti and its natural resources. At various points they were extremely concerned about the U.S. government's attempts to annex Haiti and reimpose slavery. They're very keenly and astutely aware of the interrelationship between the Western nations' efforts to undermine Haiti, and their desires to maintain slavery and white supremacy. And so I think especially for contemporary activists and just the general public, to really have a clear understanding, that you know, folks in the 19th century did not need social media; they didn't need Twitter. You know, they didn't need digital technology to know, and to understand, and to be informed about the injustices that were happening in other parts of the world and to become involved and committed to righting the wrongs that are taking place relative to other black nations, right? So I think that's a really powerful and instructive lesson, you know, is to remember that people 200 years ago cared about Haiti and Haiti's sovereignty and its right to exist as an independent nation. And I think it raises important questions about why people today don't care as much as people did in the 19th, century. So my hope is that it can really be sort of a positive lesson about what transnational black solidarity, right, and what kind of early forms of Pan-Africanism could actually look like, And what people were able to achieve when they were as committed to the liberation of their brothers and sisters as they were to their own, right? >> Taylor Brooks: Thank you so much. So bringing it back into a contemporary context, I wanted to know, as scholars, as professionals, what would you say is your call to action for the video presentation of Haiti? >> Dr. Gregory Pierrot: I think it would be crucial for, you know, again speaking about mainstream media -- it might seem like a detail, but so much reporting on Haiti relies on stock phrases and shortcuts. We have -- I mean, I don't even want to repeat those phrases just not to participate in their circulation, but everyone has heard them. They're always related. They're always the same. And my problem with those is that they assume that we can take this for granted, that we can take, you know, that country for granted and sort of imply that everybody knows what we're talking about. But the truth is, nobody knows what we're talking about. Nobody knows anything about Haiti. I mean, you know, I'm exaggerating, but you know what I'm saying. You know, that sensationalism embedded in this and the fact also that, you know, that obviously there's always a specialist of Haiti who know better. But the reality about Haiti is complex, and there's something about media that encourages simplicity. I think you can be simple without diminishing or Betraying the country, which I think those shortcuts and stock phrases tend to do. You know, I was thinking about this. You know, try to imagine, you know, there's a way in which Haiti only shows up in most media, Western media, when something terrible happens, right? The rest of the time, you never hear about it. And so it's easier to think that this is all that ever happens in Haiti, and all that's ever happened in Haiti. That is very much a function of the way, you know, western countries have spoken about Haiti from the beginning, precisely to try and sort of restrain its possible influence. I mean, we're talking about an entire world of slaveholding countries not wanting this idea to spread. So one of the ways to contain it culturally was to diminish it constantly, right? And I think that tradition just is perpetuated, maybe within the -- at least carelessly by media and other agencies. But I was thinking about this the other day. And I mean, I was trying to imagine, you know, if foreign countries only ever heard of the U.S. with a string that would go from Catrina to, you know, all of the different hurricanes that you know, the great fires in the West, you know, mobs attacking the capital. And this is -- these are the only things you ever, I mean, strictly, you never hear about music. You never hear about art. You never even hear about film. But every once in a while, here's what happens. Look at the U.S., right? You could do this, right? You could have that narrative about the U.S., and it wouldn't be wrong in the fact that all of those things did happen, but obviously, it would give you a very, very narrow and biased image of the country. But this is what happened to Haiti for the past 200 years. And I would say, and very much on purpose, in many cases. So if anything, I would say, you know, Haiti has been voluntarily isolated and ostracized by all of our countries -- France, U.S., and Great Britain for years. And so I think, if I had a call, it would be to think and to present Haiti in relation rather than in isolation. Haiti is related to all of us, including the bad things that happened there. And I think that's the least we can do. And I think it's the honest thing to do as scholars and journalists, when you speak about Haiti, is to give a sense of all that information that most people don't get to try, and account for what it is that we're seeing when, you know, even when we're talking about terrible things. >> Dr. Leslie Alexander: I think that the -- my biggest call to the media, what I am constantly pleading with the media to do, is to really understand -- and I suppose this is reflecting my bias as a historian. But my hope is that they would really understand, and you know, honestly grapple with what the history, and what even the contemporary relationship of the United States and other Western nations has actually been towards Haiti. You know, I know that the Library of Congress, for example, contains in its collection Frederick Douglas's speech in 1893, from the Chicago World's Fair. It's a fantastic and fascinating reflection. But one of my favorite quotes from that speech is, he says, "Haiti is black, and we have not yet forgiven Haiti for being black." And I think that that for me, is at the core of this story, is that you know, the Western nations -- starting first with, you know, France, following their loss in the Haitian revolution, but then later, the United States, have really had predatory relationships to Haiti that have resulted in Haiti's current plight. And so my plea to the media would be to stop depicting, you know, Haitian poverty as if it's, you know, either an accident of history, or that it is somehow the fault of Haitians themselves. There has to be an honest reckoning with the role that the French, the United States, the British, various Western nations over the course of, you know, the past 200-plus years, have actually played in ensuring that Haiti would remain in an impoverished nation. So there's lots of examples I could give about it. I don't know how detailed you would like me to go. But I think literally stemming all the way back to, you know, the founding of Haiti as a sovereign nation, up to the present moment, right? French and U.S. intervention and disruption of the Haitian economy and the Haitian political system is really what has brought into being what Haiti is facing now. And I wish the media would be honest about more of that story. >> Taylor Brooks: Yeah, so a follow-up question to that would be, the media informs institutions like the Library of Congress, that focus on long-term information gathering and preservation, what advice do you have for us concerning Haiti? What should we be presenting? >> Dr. Chelsea Stieber: It is an amazing feat, what the Library of Congress is able to preserve. And knowing that you have both the will and the mandate to do that, I'm willing to give you tons of ideas. But I mean, I think a couple things, a couple contemporary types of materials that are really essential, one is radio preservation. I know there's actually a taskforce at the Library of Congress. But Haitian radio is an essential material, and I think a sort of, something that can be gathered and preserved and needs to be. Creole language materials, absolutely essential, and then the ability to make them accessible in the sense of searchable, or at least make the catalogue legible. And then sort of more broadly, Haiti-produced material, you know, at large, which is just so crucial. I mean, so much of my arguments in my book and sort of, the practice of my work, is to always be focusing on what's produced in the ground by people who are there. And so being able to continue to, you know, hold that in the library and make it available for researchers and for the broader public too is really crucial. I don't know how much you guys are doing with sort of, web engagement. You know, I know new media -- I sound quite old now. But New Media is also I think, really crucial to have people thinking about it. And there are tons of great online -- there are blogs and different sort of media-type materials produced by Haitians within Haiti and in the diaspora. And if that could be something as part of a resource to sort of highlight or hold and preserve, that would also be crucial. >> Taylor Brooks: Those are all wonderful answers. So now I want to take it back to Dr. Pierrot. You know in your book, Dr. Pierrot, that's titled, "The Black Avenger in Atlantic Culture," it features a covert illustration from the Library of Congress. And that directly relates to what Michel-Rolph Trouillot calls the Silencing of Haitian revolutionary History." How have you read those silences? How do you fill in those gaps, or what methods have you been using to combat the erasure that's been happening concerning Haitian history? >> Dr. Gregory Pierrot: I thin , you know, I really like, you know, Trouillot's argument. I think it's often maybe, somewhat misunderstood or misanalysed. It's really speaking of, you know, an active act of silencing, right? We talked a lot about sources that might be missing, and you know, I think, you know, that maybe this should go under a slightly different heading, you know, just voices we don't necessarily have access to. But what he's speaking about are ways in which sources that do exist are either voluntarily ignored or sort of vandalized, right? Like, he says that, you know, there's two ends to this -- erasure and banalization. And both of them rest on actually using sources, but using them badly, if you will, right, and pretty much on purpose. So initially, I feel like the sort of idea almost provides it's own path out, in that while there are ways of reading sources against the grain, and I think, you know again, I'm more a literary scholar than a historian, but I feel that that's the least historians can do. Yet one of the things you find out, the more you read about Haiti in particular, is that a lot of them went about their job in ways that I think with time, just like, are so blatantly ideological. And by this I mean racist. It's sort of staggering, right, you know, that people could get away with this, and you know, that were published and recognized as scholars among the years. I mean, styles have changed and what not, but still, it's sort of a -- it's a very gross and surprisingly blatant illustration of Trouillot's argument, what you will, you know, find people doing. And so to me, you know, one of the ways to approach this is to go back to those assumptions that we just inherit from prior scholars, from private writers, and question them. You know, you look at the angle they were produced from, and them maybe see if they look the same from different angles. You know, I'm thinking, Marlena Daut's "Tropics of Haiti," which you know, that's a lot about this, right? And she -- one of the things she shows is that is again, it's so simple when it's spelled out, but it's also, it's staggering in its enormity, right? It's just, how much writing along the years, writing about Haiti realized on a naturalization of politics. And it replace -- it reads race over everything. But in a way, that says, "Well, these people were mixed race, therefore they did this. These people were black, therefore -- " as if all of it went without saying, in a certain way. And this is not just from you know, overtly racist writing. So this is also from, you know, fairly well-meaning scholars that just sort of take for, you know, take for granted that if people say, "I want to do this because I'm black," well then, that must be true. You know, I mean, "I do this because its my nature," or "I defend my people," as if, you know, we didn't know better than, you know. Stuff like -- anyway, that's what I mean. Like, it's something about it that is so silly, and yet, book after book after book will sort of repeat this and then go onto something else. You know, I think to me, rereading [inaudible] sources with sort of an eye for this, an eye for that bias, which I think, you know, [inaudible] -- and I think Marlena would agree, is the fundamental bias we're talking about here, makes a world of difference. You know, in the book, you -- one thing in particular that is both very minute and possibly not super, you know, fundamentally different, but I think sort of illustrates this. You know, I looked at the expression, the Black Spartacus, which is sort of a, you know, everybody -- it's everywhere. Every time Toussaint Louverture is mentioned, "Oh, the Black Spartacus." And you know, the story goes that this French General called him that on a very specific occasion, right? And you know, as I was working, I thought, "Oh, that's interesting." So you know, I kept looking, because I'm like, "Well, what was that occasion? How did this happen? Was it a speech?", etc. And what you find out very soon -- well, you know, what I did find out is that all the people mentioning this story, were when they did cite any source, were all going back to the same source, which was written by, yeah, written by a royalist farmer planter Frenchman who was, you know, fighting in the English army against, you know, the revolution -- who could not have been there when this happened, right? So it's already, you know, that was odd, and then when you keep digging, you find out that it's actually very unlikely the speech itself happened. But soon after that speech, publications started coming out that gradually, you know, presented this expression as an Indian, you know, presented this. All this, you might say, it's not that super interesting, but fundamentally different. But to me, it shows two things, right? One, that, you know, if you don't check on historical sources and historiographic sources, the same way you might, you know, check in science on some other peoples' experiments, well, if you take everything for granted, you might find that people just -- do they use [inaudible] as it turns out, and say things that aren't necessarily exactly true, but that they can pass off, because maybe they don't seem that important. But the second thing you find out, I think, and that's again, fundamental, and that's sort of Trouillot's point. You know, [inaudible] normally in the middle of this is racism. I mean again, it's very simple, but it's also that enormous. And so one thing I find out, looking at this specific expression, is that, you know, it's part of a system in which Louverture himself, you know, great actors of the revolution, French actors of the revolution did actually plug in a racial reading where it didn't necessarily belong. So this is going on in the 1790s already. It's starting in a way, but you could just not see it if you don't want to. You know what I mean? >> Taylor Brooks: Yeah, oh I know what you mean. >> Dr. Gregory Pierrot: There's a way -- you need to sort of work against the grain and read into your sources. Like, you can't just read them for information, which you know, I'm not -- many people don't just do that. But then for a long time, I would say they -- people read them for information that fit their worldview anyway, right? So I think it is, you know, [inaudible] might be a big word here, but it is, it needs to be a -- it's a necessary effort and it needs to be aware, you know, you know, it's done in awareness, right? Like, part of what I read against is the racism that's engrained in those texts. And it is everywhere, but it's not always obvious. >> Taylor Brooks: Yeah, that's fantastic. So adding on to this conversation, we are joined by Alexis Bracey, our Huntington intern, who is going to ask a question about Haitian Creole. >> Alexis Bracey: So my focus has been primarily on gathering resources in Haitian Creole. As a part of my research, I read The Haitian's [inaudible] History by [inaudible] which was significant in helping me understand the ways in which language was a tool of resistance against slavery. [inaudible] writes: "Everything the Haitian population remembers of its past, everything it makes of its present, everything it is and believes it might become on its own terms is all expressed in its own language, Creole. To inspire their goals in reality, the people use their own mouth system, not better than master." My question for you is, what is the importance of scholars, in particular, scholars who are writing about Haiti in English, to consult sources in Haitian Creole, whether they be written sources or audio sources, such as the Radio Haiti archive? >> Dr. Jean Eddy Saint Paul: That's a great question, and I will do my best to answer it, too. So in a good fashion, I think -- you know, let's go first, going to the [inaudible] social views as you know, [inaudible] work of Michel Foucault, who is a [inaudible] of knowledge. [inaudible] Foucault would say that language is power. You know, by language, we [inaudible] inclusion, but also by language we can do -- we exclude. So for instance, the -- understanding the power of language in shaping Asian society, Asian policy, Asian culture, Asian intellectual talk is really important [inaudible] Because for instance, Haiti is a country since the very foundation, we saw that the [inaudible] they decided to exclude the [inaudible] of the Haitians who speak Haitian Creole. So [inaudible] you have a country is a paradox, because a country that also indicate, you know, that is like, the birthplace of blackness, the birthplace of equality, you know, the birthplace of human dignity. But you have some very powerful aids, political aids, intellectual [inaudible] do embrace the [inaudible] of the former master, the French colonizer, and they would check Mama Africa. They would -- they check the Haitian, what we call [inaudible] you know, Haitian Creole, the Haitian village and the Haitian vodou. So language has always played a key role in, you know, preventing Haiti to become a state [inaudible] that also we might also do a type of book that Michel [inaudible] publish in you know, this [inaudible] And language play a key role in making Haiti state against the nation [inaudible] So Creole is very important, because it was [inaudible] 1804, it would be onto the constitution of March 29, 1987, [inaudible] where we'll see [inaudible] acquisition of Haitian Creole. So you have a country, more than 99-plus percent of the population is black skin. They speak a language, but the [inaudible] also decided to marginalize, you know, the -- those [inaudible] people. And those factor also are important to understand the current situation in Haiti. So I do think it's important to challenge, you know, the traditional [inaudible] the tradition that Haiti is a place, "Oh, we speak French." Yes, I speak French, because I'm, you know, I have some kind of, you know, cultural, you know, subcultural capitalize, their vodou would say. But the vast majority of nation, they do not speak French. Haitian speak Creole. So if we also want to challenge the traditional narrative, if we want also to give to Haitian people the [inaudible] we should also reframe this current system, because this current system is Haiti [inaudible] don't know how to, you know, and marginalize the language of Haitian people. Until now, in the social cultural universe in Haiti, Creole still operating as [inaudible] language [inaudible] and Creole is known as a [inaudible] language. Is -- this is a [inaudible] And the same time, we are criticizing the [inaudible] against Haiti, which are -- we have also to have the courage to criticize, you know, the kind of, you know, cultural [inaudible] that continue to shape the [inaudible] of Haitian society in the daily life of Haitian people. At least definitely, I think, is important to embrace what scholar on Creole, Haitian scholar, but not only Haitian scholar. Because Haitian studies are [inaudible] in which we have different kind of intelligence. Every kind of scholar who is using, embracing Creole to form a [inaudible] of Haiti, we should pay attention to their work. And more specifically, pay attention to their work of Haitian scholar who are continuing on a constant basis using Creole. Using Creole not only in, you know, [inaudible] but also in the music, you know, to actually [inaudible] to the operations, you know, of you know, different kind of operations, and reparation we should actually pay attention to them. [inaudible] telling you I have in my, for instance, a young Haitian song writer. He's clever, who is doing very intelligent things in using Haitian Creole, but before him we had also, you know, [inaudible] in the 1970, 1980s, who used Haitian Creole in, you know, in music, to show resistance. We have a kind of music that we call in Haitian Creole, [inaudible] the woods music, with [inaudible] movement experience. You know, we [inaudible] say we have also [inaudible] We have a lot of music, what we call wood music that has a mixture of, you know, Jamaican, reggae, and African music. Using Creole in music, you know, that resist to oppression coming from the, you know, [inaudible] maybe, but also resistant against, you know, American [inaudible] >> Taylor Brooks: Fantastic. So going back to some of the books that are going to be written about Haitian history, particularly your book, Dr. Stieber, "Haiti's Paper War," I'm interested in how you dive into Haiti, and how it is used to privilege many different agendas. Could you offer an example of these agendas, and talk about how you work to represent Haiti without such agendas? What do you think we can gain from studying Haitian history? >> Dr. Chelsea Stieber: I also acknowledge and really try and reflect, and be very deliberate about my practice of how I engage with Haiti as a place, as an object of research, as the subject of sort of, my work, and as what really is my life's work. I mean, I will continue to work on this for as long as I'm researching and thinking. And so in that sense, I think everyone who is researching or in these conversations is coming with an idea of Haiti. And then it's really a question of how you can work to not make it a singular use, or to move beyond just wanting it to represent something so that you can make an argument about something else, right? And that's so hard, because it is so complex. And so a little bit, that's sort of what my book has tried to do. And I have really interesting conversations with people about that. Which is, I know, sort of, the limits of what I'm really working on and where I want to ask other people to sort of pick up from there, or like, take the baton. Like, I -- and I think, I hope, I mean, it sounds like, from reading it, you sounded accessible. It is both very, like, densely researched, but it's also, wanting to be accessible, for people to be able to take that work. And that sort of, really elaborating on these complexities in order to inform the work that they may be doing in their field, that isn't sort of, this deep look at Haiti's long postcolonial 19th century. And so I guess, my hope is just, even in maybe just to come back to my first sort of non-answer answer, which is like, we're all using Haiti as an idea to some degree. And my hope is to really have people reflect on, what idea of Haiti are we using? Be really clear about that. And then that sort of allows us to not take what they're saying as like, the whole monolithic [inaudible] that they're representing. I think another thing -- I mean, what can we gain? I -- again, this is another use of Haiti. I think there is everything to gain from studying and learning from Haiti. I'm listening to Haiti, and really spending time in Haitian texts. One of the ways that I have done that is my relationship and understanding of France's history and France's sort of complicated relationship with colonialism, slavery, and this idea of universalism. Haiti is central. Haiti's history is central to understanding sort of, the blind spots and shortcomings of contemporary French republicanism. And that's really crucial. That's a use of Haiti that I think is really important, but nonetheless, a use. I actually pulled two quotes, just thinking about this question about what we can learn. Raoul Peck recently narrated in his documentary series, "Exterminate All the Brutes," sort of echoing Michel-Rolph Trouillot in "Silencing the Past." And he said, quote, "What happens in Haiti contradicts most of what the West had claimed about itself." So even just sitting with that -- understanding those contradictions, studying Haiti, illuminating those contradictions, and ruminating, and kind of allowing anyone who's sort of in a West-based framework. It is -- it could be so, sort of paradigm shifting. >> Taylor Brooks: That's amazing. I think it really ties into our next question. And I'm really curious to know, it seems as though black Americans knew more about Haiti in the 19th century than they do now. What do you think changed in our education system or storytelling, that led to some of the erasure of Haiti in African-American History? >> Dr. Brandon R. Byrd: I mean in -- That's a great thing to emphasize, you know? It's all -- I'll try to piggyback on that, right? I -- There are many, many, many ways in which we can miss something as simple -- And I don't mean that, you know, flippantly, or pejoratively, for sure. -- Something as simple as, you know, a fact that over the course of the 19th century, far more -- Okay, I can put it this way. In the course of the 19th century, Haitian is a receiving country for migrants, right, not a sending country, right? Far more black people are leaving the U.S. to go to Haiti. You know, by the mid and late 19th century, they are leaving Haiti to come to what is -- goes from the slave-owning to the Jim Crow in the U.S., right? So we can miss something like that, you know, if we're not careful, right, and if we're not doing our -- doing the homework and research, right? And we miss something like that, you know, being we were also missing something about how to -- let's see -- for me, how to approach many of the current events today, right? So I guess, to put that less abstractly, right, I think that there's something to understanding what you just said about this history of migration. There's something to understanding that, that informs how we should approach the aspirations in the crisis of Haitians at this border manufactured by the U.S. government today, right? There's something to understanding that before a lot of developments late 19th, early 20th century that destabilized Haiti, that turned it into a country that will send out migrants. Before then, it was an asylum and a refuge. There's something to that, in really understanding and appreciating, like, the goals and aspirations and the rights of the Haitian people themselves now, right, you know, who were trying to claim asylum for themselves. Yeah, so I guess that -- That's where -- that's where I'm at in terms of thinking today about the connections between the history and the present. >> Dr. Leslie Alexander: Yeah, I think that -- you know, I completely agree with you. There's no question in my mind that black folks in the 19th century knew more. Even just folks on the ground knew more about Haiti and its history, and its independence than black folks do now, in the 21st century. I really think again, that this is largely by design, right? That all of the public representations that exist about the -- about Haiti, certainly in the 20th century and in the 21st century, are negative ones. It's the poorest country in the Western hemisphere. You know, look at these people coming on boats, trying to get into our country, you know? They're, like I said, eating trees, and I mean, just all kinds of crazy things. But you never hear positive stories ab out Haiti in U.S. culture, in history. The depictions of Haiti are not positive. And I think, as a result of that, you know, black folks have largely, you know, sort of pulled back and just kind of -- in their affiliation with Haiti, not really fully understanding why Haiti is in the situation that it is, right? And I think it does go a lot back to, sort of respectability politics. You know, black activists historically speaking, through -- even through much of the 20th century, have been about trying to hold up the best, and most positive images of, you know, black people and black freedom, and saying, "see, this is what we can be. This is what we can be." And because of how Haiti has been treated, it's not a country you can hold up as a positive image. "Oh, this is what black self-governments can look like," right? "This is what an independent black nation can look like." Haiti does not have positive images associated with it. And so I think people have tended to back away from, you know, association with Haiti, rather than recognizing that Haiti has a proud and beautiful history, and that it is a country that has been attacked and has been beleaguered, right, by mistreatment and abuse by Western nations that have created its situation. But that, if it had been allowed to exist on equal terms, as a sovereign nation, its story would be very different. >> Taylor Brooks: To wrap this up, I was wondering if a few of you could share some final thoughts with our audience concerning Haiti. >> Dr. Chelsea Stieber: I would just really encourage people to continue to try to let Haiti displease and disturb in a different way. Which is to say, to really, you know, self-reflect on what is going on in Haiti right now, or what sort of ideas of Haiti's history we have are actually deeply implicated, at least in the U.S., with our history. And so, you know, continuing to take up that challenge. It's hard. It's uncomfortable. I get that. But that's something that I think people, especially with the amount of resources people can have to read and to engage. And obviously Library of Congress too. I mean, so many of the crucial sources that I was looking at, produced by Haitians in Haiti, in the 20th century are -- were because I got to do the fellowship at the Library of Congress and read them all, and engage with all of them. So it's there. It's upon people to take it up. I hope my book contributes in some small part to making that more accessible. But yeah, that would be my hope and my recommendation. >> Dr. Jean Eddy Saint Paul: So I say, to congratulate you, and to, you know, encourage you to continue. You are on the very right path. So to, you know, congratulate the back knowledge, great work of Susanne [inaudible] you know, giving you that space to do what you are doing. And it's like, a great pleasure for me, and I am very, you know, available to continue to working with you. And I, you know, I think that would make a great [inaudible] project when we -- long as we make a huge impact. And you know, it's like a work that you and I, we don't know, you know, the benefits. But the current and future generation of Haitian and black people, and everyone committed to racial justice, to social justice will definitely be grateful for the great work that you are doing. So thank you so very much. >> Taylor Brooks: Thank you so much for listening to this webcast with these amazing scholars. Please look for their full bios and list of accomplishments in the description below. Be sure to tune in to future webcasts produced by the Latin American, Caribbean, and European Division and the Library of Congress. For more information, please visit us online at guides.loc.gov/haitireimagined [ Music ]