>> Carla Hayden: We are
delighted to be here today
at the beginning of
Women's History Month,
and I'm Carla Hayden, the
Librarian of Congress.
And in that light, I must
say, I'm the first female
to be a Librarian of
Congress since 1802.
And I'm delighted to be here
talking about women in Congress,
and this is the 117th
Congress, and as you can see
from our title, it's Diverse
Voices Making History,
because the person
we're starting with
and we'll be joined by
two of your colleagues
in the House who
are busy voting.
But right now, I have the
really great pleasure to hear
from Senator Shelley Moore
Capito of West Virginia.
Now, in full disclosure,
I got a chance
to see the senator
in West Virginia.
She had me visiting, and
she went from presenting
to constituents about
environmental issues,
all types of things to going
to the local public library
and sitting on the floor
doing story time with children
in that library that
she helped to build.
So, thank you for being
here, because your history
and how you got to
be here is something.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Well, thank you.
And it's a joy to be back in the
Library of Congress in person,
and it's wonderful to be with
you in person, Dr. Hayden.
We started together because
of my responsibilities
on the Appropriations
Committee when you were --
and also on the Rules Committee,
and you were, at that time,
interviewing for the
job or testifying,
and you very gracefully, as you
ascended, came to West Virginia
on one of your first
visits, and we loved that.
That library -- we
need to have you back,
because that library now is
under a major renovation,
it is going to be totally
modernized -- same building.
But it's totally modernized,
and it's going to be a real --
it always was an architectural
landmark in our city.
It was the old post office,
but now it's meeting the
21st century challenges
of your libraries,
and as you know,
that's a little bit different.
So, my pathway into
becoming a senator,
and I am the first woman senator
from the state of West Virginia,
is through the State
of West Virginia.
I'm a native born West Virginia.
My parents met in college
at West Virginia University.
My father is a native
West Virginian,
and my mother was born in
Miami, Florida, in 1926, yes.
So, they met at the
university, and my father then,
after his service in the war,
became a public servant himself.
He ran for House of delegates.
Congress, so, we went back
and forth to Washington DC
when I was a young
girl, where we went
to school half the year here and
half the year in West Virginia.
I don't know how my mother
did this, or how we did it,
but it was just sort
of the norm back then.
It's changed a lot.
And so, then, as I was looking
over my professional career,
what did I want to
do, I thought, well,
I'd like to be a doctor.
And then I worked in a hospital,
and then I decided maybe
that's not what I want to do.
So, I did a couple
of other things,
became a career counselor,
worked in education,
and then I stepped out to raise
our three children to the point
where then I was watching what
our local house of delegates,
our local governing bodies
in West Virginia were doing,
and I had this thought.
Well, I can at least do that.
You know, I can do
that as well as --
and I had such background of
going to parades and listening
to speeches and watching
current events that both
of my parents had given
their all in this,
because my dad then ascended
to become the governor
of West Virginia.
So, I have all of that
experience watching it
firsthand, and the first thing
I learned when I put my hat
in the ring for my very
first race in the House
of Delegates is this is not
as easy as he made it look.
And then, I was local-office
Congress
and then, now into the Senate.
>> Carla Hayden: That your
mother was the first lady of --
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: She was.
>> Carla Hayden:
-- West Virginia.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
She was very much a partner
with my father.
She worked hard in the
areas that she cared about,
which was literacy and reading,
but also, mental health.
I think about that now, because
I just had a conversation before
we came over here how important
mental health has become during
this pandemic and how we're
falling short in a lot of areas,
and I thought, you know,
my mother was really
on the cutting edge of
becoming a real advocate
for mental health services, and
this is was in the 60s and 70s.
And she was always right there
with my father, very active,
had her own persona, as well.
But I'd say she was a lot
more gracious that my dad.
So, she probably attracted
a different constituency,
in some ways, which helped him.
>> Carla Hayden: And
that helped him, really.
So, she was the first lady,
but also, she did contribute
to what you later thought
was how could he do this?
Well, she helped.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: She did.
She did.
>> Carla Hayden: So
now in your role,
or you, or it's like flipped.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: It's flipped.
>> Carla Hayden:
You're the person.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: It's
interesting because, you know,
Speaker Pelosi has sort of the
same path, because she stayed
out for a while,
raised her children.
Her dad was, I think,
Mayor of Baltimore,
very active politically, and
then, she became active herself.
And I think it was watching --
people ask me like
why did it really --
what resonated with you
that you saw your parents do
that made you want
to get into this?
And a lot of people think
it's the big things.
Well, I can create or roads,
or I can create the university
research, or, you know,
things of this nature
that you can do.
You know, it's really
just small things.
It's helping that one family
adopt a child from out
of the country that
can have children,
and they're having trouble
with their immigration.
It's nominating the young
man that goes to West Point,
and you go to Afghanistan, and
he's flying your helicopter.
So, these are -- I mean, I
get, really, chills about this,
but those are the things that
just, I think, when you wake
up in the morning, and
it doesn't always have
to have a happy ending.
I think, sometimes, it
ends up in a sad way,
if you've lost somebody serving,
and you're able to, you know,
help the family in some way.
So, it's the small ways
that you can really impact,
in a big way, people's lives.
That's what really excites me.
>> Carla Hayden: And
also, when there are
like natural disasters are
things happen, you were able
to bring that aid
and help with that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
We had a big flood in 2016,
and that was a big
part of what we did.
We helped a lot of people,
and that's probably
the most recent tragedy
that we've had in our state.
We've had some coal
mine tragedies
that are equally as tragic.
>> Carla Hayden: All right, so,
the range of issues, and still,
you were, really, the
people at that library,
and I'll never forget it, they
were just -- they knew you.
They were showing the drafts
and the plans for the --
what you're talking about that,
and you were telling them that.
So, the range of what you do.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
I wondered, when they knew me,
I wondered, is that the same
mother that used to come
in with those three wild
kids and check books out
and let them run
wild in the library?
>> Carla Hayden: They
probably remembered.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
They probably were
thinking that, yes.
>> Carla Hayden: So, the
balance, then of being --
you mentioned you're
a grandmother.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Yes, seven times.
>> Carla Hayden: Seven times,
and then you have your
responsibilities here.
How do you do the
work-life balance?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: You
know, I don't think it's easy
for anybody, but I
have a lot of support.
I have a very supportive
husband, and as I saw
with my parents, it's a team
sport, and for us it has been,
and that has been --
made it easier for me.
You have to learn how to say no.
I'm sure you find
this in your own life.
You have to learn
to say I can't do
that because I've set
the priority of I'm going
to don't go to my daughter's
volleyball game or I'm going
to -- or I promised my older son
I would babysit this weekend,
or whatever.
And those things fulfill me, in
terms of recharge the batteries
where I'm not every day sitting
there thinking about going
through Twitter, finding
out what political
statements someone's made.
You know, like everything, the
fulfilling part of my family
and friends is still the
-- what do I want to say?
The breadth of how I can get
the energy to keep doing,
and I think that's probably the
same with anybody who's working.
If you have a good support
system, you can say no
when you need to and
that set your priorities.
That's pretty much
how I approach it.
>> Carla Hayden: And you
want that for others.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: I do.
I do, and you know, it's not
easy for the single mother
who has a mid-to low-income job.
She's trying to get
by, you know,
and school gets called off.
What's she going to do?
You know, these are things
that I personally didn't have
to deal with, because I was
the one at home at the time,
but I really think
about it a lot.
>> Carla Hayden: And
especially during this time.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Right.
>> Carla Hayden: So, I
have to ask you this.
So you're a senator, and you're
one of only how many women now?
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Twenty five now.
>> Carla Hayden: Twenty five,
and do you all get together
and talk, just the women?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Right.
We do. We do.
It drives the men crazy.
And we have dinners
every other month.
Now COVID has sort of thrown
this off a little bit.
As a matter of fact,
I had one dinner,
like one of the women
will sponsor the dinner.
So, one of the dinners that I
sponsored several years ago,
you will helped me with, we had,
here at the Library of Congress,
and I gave out, I believe,
it was Cookie Roberts's
book on first ladies.
And so, but, here's
the ground rules.
Nothing goes out of the
room that we talk about.
We don't get into any
divisive issues at all,
and we pretty much
don't get into issues.
It's a real personal
kind of gathering of,
you know, how's your family?
Where are you traveling?
Have you ever been here?
How is your staff?
You know, how you
deal with this issue?
It's very much like you would
have if you were, you know,
meeting with your church group.
It's the same thing, and
when we break from that,
then the next day,
the men, the other 75
of the senators all want
to know what we talk about,
but we're a code of silence,
and we're pretty good at it.
>> Carla Hayden: So, do you
ever talk about the legislation
or some of the things
that you're --
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Only the common ground ones.
We wouldn't get into,
say, since we have done
such differing opinions on --
this is an easy one, abortion.
We wouldn't enter into
that arena, because then
that would just -- it
would probably divide the
conversations to a point
where we would enjoy as much.
I'll tell you, the
Vice-President has had us
over to her house last year,
and she had actually made
the little cheese things
that we popped in our
mouth, little cheese balls,
and she showed us around
her home, and there again,
it was just really uplifting
evening, but we didn't get
into the too-serious
kinds of talks.
We have plenty of
opportunity for that.
We don't have as much
opportunity to really get
to know each other, sadly.
>> Carla Hayden: And so, this
is a way that you can get
to know each other
in a different way.
So, when you do get into those
heated conversations and things,
you know what the
person is coming from.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Right, and, you know,
you have like you have
with other friendships.
When you know when
you're pushing too hard
or when you need to push harder,
if you know somebody better,
it helps you to be
more convincing,
but it also helps you to
know if you want to keep
that friendship what
the boundaries are.
And so, I think it's
been really fun.
It was a tradition that started,
I believe with Kay
Bailey Hutchison
and your former senator.
>> Carla Hayden:
Barbara Mikulski.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Senator Barbara Mikulski,
and they started that
tradition when, I believe,
there were only nine of them.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
And they were a tight group.
So, then, does the support over
spill over into legislation?
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Senator Klobuchar and I
have done a lot of things
on eating disorders,
on rural broadband.
I did a thing on
opioid prescribing
with Senator Warren
from Massachusetts.
We do, you know, and I'm using
those as examples because that's
across party lines,
but do a lot together.
We go to one another, I think,
sometimes, to be cosponsors.
Senator Baldwin and I have done
quite a bit on veterans health.
So, you know, you find out
where the areas are alike,
and you don't necessarily
say to yourself, oh,
I want to get another
woman on this.
It's more like, I want to
start building support,
and I know that Dr.
Hayden might like this one.
So, let's go there first,
and then we can start
building on each side.
>> Carla Hayden: I also have to
ask, do you think it's different
from some of the other
groups in the Senate?
I mean, the women are together--
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Oh, absolutely.
I mean, there's a special -- you
know, I guess I hesitate to go
down the avenue of, you
know, a lot of us are mothers
or we're caretakers
for our parents,
but that's a commonality
that we share.
And I think I'd shared
with you that, you know,
I had elderly parents
that were aging
as I was moving into the Senate.
You know, some of the hardest
decisions I had to make,
and you know, I know that
my friend, Deb Fischer,
had a mother, you know,
her mother is in her 90s.
So, you know, we
could talk about that.
Marsha Blackburn, same thing.
She has elderly mother.
Thom Tillis just went
to visit his mother.
I mean, so, these are
things that you talk
about that you would do in
normal, you know, everyday life.
It's no different they are to
be able to find some supports
when you're in tough areas of
your life or your family life.
But I think there is a
safe space that we create
by these dinners and by our, I
think, natural affinity to take
on a lot of things that
families and in other ways
that be taken care of.
And so, we just do it.
>> Carla Hayden: One
thing, and I'm smiling,
because I'm remembering Senator
Mikulski talking about the fight
to let women wear
trousers, she called them.
And that was something.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Can you imagine that?
>> Carla Hayden: Trousers.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: And
they were called trousers.
>> Carla Hayden: They
were called trousers,
but that there are these
gender-type thing that come
up with you and restrooms.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
yeah, we had the whole thing
with the restrooms
over on the House side,
and the men had a great
restroom, and the ladies,
we had one, but women's
was a little off.
It was off Statuary Hall.
It wasn't close enough,
and you know,
will we get up to critical
mass of 60 or 70 women,
and we're on the floor, we
need a little bit more space.
So, I got put on the
Bathroom Committee.
It's not in my bio, but we
did put a bathroom very close
to the chamber, so that
you could go in and out,
because sometimes these
votes are rather quick.
I'll tell you another
funny kind of thing.
Now one of the other
rules, when I first came in,
and keep in mind, this was
only six or seven years ago,
no sleeveless dresses.
You can't show your shoulders.
So, then comes Senator Sinema
with 146 sleeveless dresses.
>> Carla Hayden:
She's from Arizona.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Arizona, yes, she is.
And she came in, I guess,
maybe three-four years ago,
and there's no telling
Senator Sinema no.
So, she just basically
said I'm wearing this.
I have 146 of these.
So, we're wearing it.
You know, I don't care.
And so, she does, and so, that
big vaunted rule has fallen.
Now the other one
is open-toe shoes.
>> Carla Hayden: Oh, my.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: I know.
Horrifying.
Horrifying.
>> Carla Hayden: Scandalous.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Now I don't want the men wearing
open-toed shoes, but, so,
that one is sort of going
by the wayside, too.
Now you can't wear jeans,
and that one will probably
-- but that's unisex.
>> Carla Hayden: But
that's for everybody.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
That's for everybody.
>> Carla Hayden:
And it's interesting
that that's an extra layer
that sometimes women have,
in terms of dress that is just
totally that I talk about.
I'm a librarian who can so, I
remember the first time I wore
like red nail polish,
it was like, oh,
my God, is everybody looking?
No, they weren't.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Yeah, right.
>> Carla Hayden:
No, they weren't.
So, you have that and you
have the family things.
But about how you
present yourself?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
as you can tell by talking
with me, I'm pretty much but
you see is but you get type.
I'm not real reserved, and
I'm not afraid to poke fun
at myself, and I
find humor is really,
really a great way
to get through life.
If you can laugh a little bit
every day, that sure helps.
And so, presenting
myself, I look at it
as I can wear a red
jacket and he can't.
So, to distinguish yourself,
and sometimes, just jokingly,
if I introduce myself
to somebody.
Maybe I'm out of town.
I'm meeting somebody, and
they say, "Oh, we're not going
to remember -- you know,
we know you're a senator,
but we don't remember
your name."
I say, just Google woman
senator, West Virginia.
It's me. I'm the only one.
And so, I see it as a real
asset, because I think I feel
like I can talk about
the complete experience
of legislating, of being
chairman of the committee,
of taking care of my parents
and children and grandchildren.
So, and on there is no part
of me that I don't feel
like I can express and share.
I mean, I'm certainly --
I'm not sharing everything.
But I mean, by that I mean
just be open about it.
So, I think being a woman
in public life today
is a total advantage.
Totally. And some people would
totally disagree with me,
but I tend to always look
at the good side of things.
>> Carla Hayden: Well,
it's challenging.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: It is.
But it's challenging
for everybody.
I think that, as we
look at public life now,
and you see what you're faced
with in term of social media
and the raw feelings,
and all this.
That cuts both ways.
I mean, I don't think that's a
gender-based sort of opinion.
I think that's hitting
everybody.
And so, it's hard.
For some reason, everybody
thinks they can tell you
everything when you're
at the grocery store.
>> Carla Hayden: Well, I
think that something you have
in common with all
your colleagues.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Right, right exactly.
>> Carla Hayden: They see you
and they want to
tell you about it.
And so, there have been
women in leadership,
you mentioned committee chair
positions, Speaker of The House.
What are some other
areas and ways
that you think women
need to advance?
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Well, I think if you look
at the leadership in the Senate,
there hasn't been a woman leader
of the Senate, President
of the Senate,
and I think that's another
milestone that will be broken,
hopefully in the next, you
know, decade or whenever,
several years, sooner than that,
hopefully, and I think that is
because it is the most
powerful position,
much like Speaker Pelosi's
position is in the House.
That hasn't occurred.
Woman president, obviously.
We have a woman Vice-President,
and that is quite an
achievement, and another sort
of way to mark off
an achievement.
I think this to be true, and
I could use you as an example.
If young girls see you
in these positions,
if a young girl sees
a woman astronaut,
she might aspire
to be an astronaut.
If young girl sees a woman
president, she might aspire
to be a woman president.
But if you never see that,
it's not that it's impossible.
I just think it makes
it less likely
to kind of cross your mind.
>> Carla Hayden: It's
harder to imagine.
There's a saying that
you hear people say.
"You can't be at if
you can't see it."
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Right, right.
>> Carla Hayden: So,
you can't see yourself
or someone that looks like you.
It's hard to put your face --
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Put yourself.
>> Carla Hayden:
-- on that body.
And that's what's happening.
So, okay, we're going
to get a president.
We're going to get a
leader of the Senate.
We're going to do more
committees and things like that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Yeah, and I think,
if you look at our structures
now and where the power is.
Let's just talk about where
is the power in the Senate?
The power is in the leadership
of either party, the leadership
of who's in the majority,
certainly, is the most powerful,
but there's power in committees.
In terms of what you see.
Say, take the rules
committee for example
where Amy Klobuchar is the Chair
of the Rules Committee now.
That's a very powerful
committee.
I mean, they liken it to, you
know, mayor of Washington DC,
but it's much bigger than that.
So, you're controlling things
like how many offices I have
and where my hideaway
is, and, you know,
things that mean a
lot to other senators.
That's a good power dynamic
if you're working with people.
And you see this, you know,
Lisa Murkowski was Chairman
of the Energy Committee,
and that has big
and bold implications
all across the country.
So, the committee
chairs and leadership are
where the power is, but that
doesn't mean that when you get
on the floor, everybody's
got -- I always say this.
Everybody's got one vote,
and they said, well,
does your vote count as much?
I said, my vote counts
just as much
as Chuck Schumer's vote does,
because it's just one vote.
Now getting onto the floor,
convincing people to follow you,
maybe a little bit
more with him.
>> Carla Hayden: Do you think
there's a little edge sometimes
with women?
With people being able
to -- or a consensus?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: You
know, I wonder about that.
I just had a conversation
last night about the end
of the president's
speech, and this was
with another woman senator,
and from the Democrat party,
and I said, well, I
couldn't really hear.
You know, it was weird
where we were sitting there,
because President
Biden kept talking sort
of through the applause.
You couldn't really hear
everything that he was saying,
and at the end, he's like
raising his voice and he's
like trying to pump
everybody up, and you know,
we've got a great country.
And this is what you want
your president to do.
I'm not being critical
of what he was saying,
but he was kind of
almost yelling.
And so, I asked her, the
other senator, I said, well,
what if that was one of
us up there like yelling?
She goes, "Oh, that
would never work.
We would be characterized
as being very shrill
if we did that."
So, there's still
that underlying --
>> Carla Hayden: What's
that and everything.
I just have to share this.
I would to a debate one time
and saw different
candidates, it was interesting.
The male candidates had
their water, you know, thing.
But the female had to drink
out of a cup, because how would
that look if a woman
was swinging
out of the water bottle?
I thought, oh, okay.
I'd never even thought
about that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
somebody told me one time
when you speak, and I
do this all the time.
They told me not to do this,
but I do it all the time.
Don't put your hands like
this and have a picture,
because you look like a witch.
[laughing] Now I don't
know what a man would look
like if he's doing this.
Apparently, I look like a witch.
>> Carla Hayden: But it's
that extra layer that I think,
when you do -- ever talk
to women that want to get
into public service
and things about some
of the extra considerations,
as a woman?
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Well, I think, yes.
Yes and no.
I think at the bottom
line, at this level,
you have to have an
incredibly hard shell,
whether you're a male or a
female, or you really can't get
up in the morning
sometimes, because, you know,
the barrage of people that
disagree with you or the time
and the effort that it takes.
You get weary, and then
you get more sensitive.
You just have to, that was
the beauty for me growing up,
going back to the first
question, was I was able
to observe this in my parents.
How you have to be able
to slough things off.
Not to say you don't care, but
get up in the morning and start
over again and develop that
kind of tough shell, and that,
I think, for some women, that
is probably a harder thing.
And I hate to characterize,
because, you know,
for some women it's not.
For some men it's harder.
But that's the hard part
of our job is to be able
to stay focused, stay on
where you want to go and try
to balance the criticisms
that can be quite harsh
from time to time.
>> Carla Hayden: Do
you ever hold back
about being angry
or [inaudible].
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Oh, sure.
Sure.
>> Carla Hayden:
But sometimes --
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Sometimes you've got
to let them know
who's in charge.
This is where your mothering
skills come very much in.
At least mine do anyway.
You've got to know when to hold
them and know when to fold them.
And yes, you have to
have people know --
you know, I'm pretty
even-keeled.
I don't get too upset,
but when I do,
I get very upset,
and people know it.
I don't have to like
yell and scream
or anything, but you can tell.
>> Carla Hayden: You can tell.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: I
bet that's the same with you.
>> Carla Hayden: Well, and as
a woman, sometimes that comes
into your management style.
And then, that's what you talked
about, what's seen as forceful
in a male might seem,
as you said,
shrill or just overbearing,
and it's interesting to talk
with young women that are going
into the positions are
thinking about some of these.
And then there's a
generational thing, too.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Right.
Well, I'm thinking now,
that my husband Charlie,
if I have an instance like that
where things are really going
the way I'm thinking they should
or wallet, and I'm
expressing this to that person,
he calls it "being
in Shelley jail."
He goes, "I've been
in Shelley jail."
>> Carla Hayden: It's
not a good place.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
It's not a good place to be.
>> Carla Hayden: And
sometimes you have to interact
with your male colleagues.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely, yeah, they get it.
I mean, it's much more --
because we hold the same power
on the floor of the vote,
look how closely
divided we are right now.
Everybody's vote
counts, probably more
than any time I've
ever been there,
especially in contentious
issues.
So, it doesn't become,
you know, he's a man.
She's a woman.
So, we're going to
approach them differently.
It doesn't really get into that.
I don't perceive
that to be that.
It's more hard-core politics.
>> Carla Hayden: And women can
participate in that quite well.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Right, quite well.
>> Carla Hayden: And having
families and things, too,
because, especially, if you've
had -- how many children?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Three
children, seven grandchildren.
>> Carla Hayden: Okay,
you know how to --
>> Shelley Moore Capito: I
think I do, but you know,
I don't have all the keys to
the -- I know what works for me
and how to deliver a message.
I'll put it that way.
>> Carla Hayden: And delivering
the message, when we talked
about presentation a little
bit and how you present,
are you conscious of how you --
do you ever change how you
present based on the audience?
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Of course.
Of course, I do.
I mean, I think everybody
does, or if they're successful
in relaying a message.
You know, sometimes --
have you been to a speech
where you listen to somebody
talk about something you say
to yourself, "They're not
reading their audience."?
And I think that's more how I
would calibrate what I would
say, you know, rather
than how I would say it.
Although that, you know,
it's kind of harder to talk
in a group of friends or
people that know you well,
because you sort of, you know
that they know what
you're thinking
and what your normal life is
like, and they might be saying,
she's not really presenting
herself exactly as --
I'm more nervous around
people that I know.
If I'm in a -- you know, like
this morning I was talking
to a whole group of people
I had never met before,
with the exception of
maybe two or three.
Very relaxed, because I'm
right on the ground of talking
about my committee and talking
about issues that are important
to them, presenting it
from my perspective.
And so, there I think is
a knowledge is power sort
of mantra.
My dad always told me that.
You know, he told
me had a couple
of really good pieces
of advice for me.
One of them was always know
more than the other person
in the room on the topic
you're talking about.
And I wouldn't say I
do that all the time.
But it does help to know your
topic and know your audience.
That's how I calibrate
how I would present.
So, with a virtual
audience, it's kind of hard.
>> Carla Hayden: Well,
it is, and suddenly,
you don't get the feedback.
Now you mentioned
your mom earlier.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Yes.
>> Carla Hayden: And I wondered,
as you think about other women
in your life who either
you either looked up to
or you thought -- or
had some influence
on you, were there others?
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Yes, of course.
Now my mother was very
-- she was a math major,
and she taught school, and
she was a great support,
as I said, to my father.
But she was also, for me,
just taught me unconditional
love for our family.
She worried more than my dad.
Now my husband is the
worrier in our house.
So, I did get that trait.
So, she really just
filled out our lives
in such a wonderful way,
because my dad was gone a lot,
because he was, you
know, here, serving.
And so, other women in my life,
I had an eighth-grade government
teacher named Mrs. Cole,
who was really, really
good and hard.
But she taught me
so much about the --
you would've thought
I would've known it.
You know, your dad's
in Congress.
Don't you know all this?
I found out, no, I don't, and
she taught me a lot about that
and taught me -- she was
a really strong woman,
and I admired that in her and
think about that as I think back
on the times of how
I aspire to this.
I also think both of my parents
were sort of gender-neutral,
in terms of you can
be anything you want.
We weren't categorized
to be one thing or the --
I have a brother and a sister.
So, you know, they
had some of each,
and they were both very
supportive of whatever areas
that you might want to go into.
So, I didn't have
that kind of burden.
I think of -- some people are --
and maybe this is a
generational thing, too well,
you know, you're a woman.
You're going to be a teacher
or a nurse, and certainly,
that was my mother's generation.
And so, I didn't have
that pressure of that.
So, you know, other women.
I am a big sports fan.
I love tennis.
I love, you know,
Billie Jean King.
She came to my office.
I got to meet her.
Chris Everett.
You know, I was in that
era of female athletes.
I have a great admiration
for that and the discipline
that it takes, mental
and physical.
So, you know, I have, you
know, probably friends
that I have a great
-- friends that can --
that I can't even explain to
you, but people that are just
to their core so
incredibly generous,
that give of themselves
all the time,
and I think sometimes I put
my head on my pillow at night
and think maybe I should
give a little more, you know?
And so, I love those
kind of people,
because they get me going
to want to give more.
So, you get your
inspiration from a lot --
>> Carla Hayden: Well, maybe
that's what their gift is,
to help you, and that's okay.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: That's good.
>> Carla Hayden: That's okay.
What about in the Senate?
Now you mentioned
Kay Bailey Hutchison.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Well, I didn't serve with her.
She was gone.
I have been inspired by
somebody like Senator Feinstein,
who is probably the senior woman
senator in the Senate right now.
She's just, unfortunately,
lost her husband,
but she is a most
gracious woman.
And, you know, we don't have
a lot of political beliefs
that are the same, but
you would never know.
You know, she wants to
know, you know, how are you?
And I asked her one time, you
know, her husband had been ill.
I said, how is he
and how are you?
And she said, "Well, you
know, he's struggling."
She says, "But you
know, how are you?"
That's the kind of
person that, you know,
I want to try to be like.
I want to try to, you know, care
about people the way she does.
So, she's a big inspiration,
I think, to all of use
who are sort of her junior
senators, and you know,
I like that there's a couple
senators on both sides
of the aisle that, you know,
are core believers they
have real core beliefs,
whether it's real liberal core
beliefs a real conservative
core beliefs.
I'd say Marsha Blackburn,
real core conservative belief.
Elizabeth Warren, real
core liberal beliefs,
and I have an admiration
for them,
because I like seeing that core.
Sometimes, and I'm sure I don't
have to tell you who and how,
because it happens everywhere.
There's the little
finger in the air.
What am I going to do?
With those two, you don't
have to wonder, pretty much,
and I have admiration for that.
So, there's all kinds
of different ways.
Deb Fischer and I are very
good personal friends.
We talk about a lot of
different things together,
and we travel together, too.
That's a nice way to
get to know people.
>> Carla Hayden: What happens
when you travel [inaudible]
right?
That's an opportunity to get
to know all your colleagues.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Yes,
and you can take your
spouses, usually.
I mean, there's just -- just so
everybody knows, we don't pay
for the spouse's hotel.
It's in the room and
all that comes with us.
So, extra expenses
and everything,
those are personal expenses.
But it's a good way to
get to know as couples,
and that's a really good thing,
because that completes
the person, I think.
And when you travel you're on
a plane for 12 and 13 hours,
you know, you play hearts
and and watch movies.
>> Carla Hayden: Get to know
when you share snacks
and things like that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Go and walk around,
and so, that's good.
>> Carla Hayden: Yeah, because
the Library has a series
of things for Congress, the
Congressional Dialogues,
and one of the features is
being able to bring a partner
or spouse, and you
see the camaraderie
and unlikely pairings, almost.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Unlikely pairings, and those --
the last when I came to be for
COVID, more and more people,
I just found out how so
interesting they are.
So, thank you for doing that.
I know Mr. Rubenstein is
a big benefactor of that.
You're starting those back up?
>> Carla Hayden: We're
starting in a couple of weeks
with Susan Eisenhower.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Yeah, that'll be interesting.
>> Carla Hayden: Talking
about her grandfather,
and that's something, and
the other thing about that,
and the reason why so
many members enjoy them is
that those opportunities
they used to have
to socialize personally,
in the time you've been --
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Right,
when my dad was in Congress,
we socialized a lot with other
members and their families,
because we lived here, and you
don't do that much anymore.
Most people race
to go back home,
and for a lot of
different reasons.
Both spouses are working in a
lot of cases, and in the 50s
and 60s, that wasn't the case.
You know, mom was with us and
could accommodate his schedule,
and that was our life.
That's what we did,
and it was fun.
We got to know a lot
of different members.
>> Carla Hayden: So,
the women's dinners
and things almost
help with that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
they do, because it can be kind
of a lonely existence sometimes
when you're here by yourself,
and, you know, you knock
off at maybe 6:30 or 7.
You know, you don't have a core
friendship, you know, group.
So, these dinners
really do fill that void.
>> Carla Hayden: Good, because
as things are coming back
and just as in person, but
also, you know, virtual.
We still have hybrid
programming,
it is good to have
that connection.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Oh, it definitely is.
>> Carla Hayden: Because
when times get tough,
you need to have that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
We do, and it's --
I just applaud them for
starting the tradition.
It's been wonderful.
It's been continued.
It's fun, and, you know, we just
enjoy one another's company.
And you know, you
don't have to go.
If you don't want
to go, don't go.
>> Carla Hayden: But you've
had like almost 100% --
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Yes, yes.
>> Carla Hayden: -- going
even in the tough times.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Yes.
>> Carla Hayden: Have
you ever had a dinner.
That unfortunately, or
maybe fortunately was timed
after some pretty contentious --
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Yes, yes, and we when,
you know -- I'm trying to think.
Oh, when we went to the
Vice-President's house.
There was something really
going on at that point,
and we were all there.
I think there might have
been maybe one or two
that didn't come, but
it wasn't any kind of --
>> Carla Hayden: It wasn't
because of what it was.
It was that.
And so, did that help
after a particularly kind
of rough day, everybody --
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
It definitely helps.
And, you know, if you like
to drink wine, a little glass
of wine doesn't hurt either.
>> Carla Hayden: Well, you can
discuss the events of the day.
That could help, but to be able
to have at least that whole idea
of we, look, put the
ball down, you know.
We're there, but now let's also
-- what do we have in common?
And you've built, because
it's sometimes it seems
if you can build that trust
before times get hard,
it's much easier.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
And that's what we've done.
You know, you feel like a
body of 100 feels like not
that many people, but at the end
of the day, you can't be friends
with 99 people all the time.
But you can be acquaintances
and all that.
But it's nice to sort of narrow
it down to a natural narrowing,
and that's what the women's
group, women's dinners do,
and we enjoy each other.
Like every female, we
meet up in the, you know,
when we're in the restroom
and have a conversation about,
you know, do you have
a comb or whatever?
And, you know, life is pretty
normal most of the time.
>> Carla Hayden: So, we hope
that there will be more women
getting into public service,
and if you had to
give some advice.
So, just think --
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
I think the advice I give is
to young women, maybe
college-aged women is
if you think you're interested
in this, you have to sort
of tiptoe, I think, into it.
In other words, get
involved with a campaign.
Find an issue you're
interested a bit in.
Find a candidate you like,
just to sort of follow along
to see what the process is
like, because campaigning
and serving are two
different things.
There's a lot of similarities,
but there's also a
lot of differences.
You have to be able
to self-promote,
and that's hard for people.
It's not a totally
natural thing.
It's a learned skill.
You have to learn it,
and so, that, I think,
if you watch a race and see
what another woman's doing,
you might be interested
that way.
The other thing I tell them is
to perfect your communication
skills, to me,
has always been a weakness
for me, because I talk
to sort of anecdotally a lot.
I'm not a real or a tour type.
I wish I could, you know,
deliver a speech sometimes
like I hear some of
my colleagues do it.
But I've been doing it long
enough, I guess I'm never going
to be quite get there on that.
So, you know, communication
skills are really,
really important, and I think,
negotiation and consensus,
reaching consensus
and being able
to negotiate are going
to lead to success.
I think we can all have our,
you know, strident positions,
but at the end of the
day, what you really want
to do is do something good for
the country or certain segment
of the people, you've got to
reach consensus, and you have
to realize that there's
other people who have voices
in the room and that I would
tell my colleagues, too,
you've got to respect
opposing voices.
This is what we have
gotten away from,
and I think it discourages young
people from getting into it,
because they see this caustic
sort of battle, and they think,
why would I want to do that?
That doesn't even -- it looks
mean, and it doesn't even look
like they get anything done.
And so, I think this
respect issue
and stability issue is something
that is a constant challenge
that we need to work on more.
>> Carla Hayden:
What about the give
and take then with
the negotiating?
So, if you have one thing
that you're going into,
and there are a lot of
other aspects of it,
but there's this one thing
that's your drop-dead thing
that you might be able to give
a little on something else?
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Right, well, you know,
that's a strategy
of negotiating.
I'm sure, I mean, in business,
I'm sure this is what people do,
executives, and in
politics sometimes,
you know you're not going
to get this whole thing,
but if you hold on it
tight enough, you're going
to maybe get something, you
know, and then, all of a sudden,
you come in and go, well, okay,
I guess I can do that, and so,
like we're in the
middle of that right now
with our Appropriations
Committee.
I'm a ranking member of Homeland
Security, very contentious,
yeah, very contentious
issues that are --
and Chris Murphy
is the chairman.
And so, these are things
like the wall and ICE beds,
and these are not
how much, you know,
fertilizer should you
have in an ag community.
These are -- which can be
contentious, but not like this.
And so, we are in the
middle of negotiating.
And then, you have to
decide what is your will?
Is your will to get it done or
is your will to just stir it up
and try to get it
done next year?
So, you make those calculations.
>> Carla Hayden: Where do
you get your counsel at?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
luckily, that's one thing,
you know, we have wonderful
staffs, large staffs that,
you know, you get
everybody a subject area,
and they go to town on it.
Then I have regional
reps in my state,
which I'm sure every
senator does.
So, that's sort of
the ear to the ground.
What are West Virginians
thinking about this?
And I go home all the time.
So I don't really feel
disconnected at all,
but certain in areas, you
might not be able to check
in on a certain issue.
So, use that power.
You know, you go through
what's incoming, you know?
But there, again, it's trying
to figure out are these incoming
from people that
you really know?
I'm talking about emails
or -- not faxes anymore,
mostly emails or texts.
And so, or postings on
your Facebook, or whatever.
You have to decide are
things that really matter,
or is this just some guy
that every time he sees me
post something he writes,
"She's a communist,"
or something?
I mean, you have
that all the time.
>> Carla Hayden: And
usually very diligent
about expressing
that quite a bit.
So, absorbing information,
because, you know,
I'm a librarian, so I've
got to ask you, you know,
how do you work on that?
I know, you get briefing
books when you do that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
I've always been fascinated
by the currents events,
so, news.
So, I read a lot of
newspapers, my local one.
I'll read some of
the Washington Post.
Not cover to cover.
I'll go to the front part,
and then, the crossword
and the style section,
and food, which is today,
I think is the food section.
And then, you know,
I'll read my --
I must admit, I read
Twitter a lot,
because I think you
get a lot of --
and links you to a bunch
of different articles.
And so, I do that.
I do tell my young students,
the younger students,
that I meet that learning
to read is so critical.
I had a really good teacher,
Mrs. Cromwell in second
and third -- I actually
had her two years in a row.
That's back when
they split classes.
>> Carla Hayden: They did.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: You
know, you'd have to second grade
and half the third
grade together.
I don't think they
do that anymore.
>> Carla Hayden: No.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: No.
But anyway, so I had her
in second grade, and then,
when they split classes,
she wanted me again.
So, she took me in third grade,
and she was wonderful
at teaching to read.
So, I learned to read well,
but I also learned to read fast
and comprehend enough to get by.
I mean, I know I'm
talking to a librarian --
>> Carla Hayden: Skim.
I do that.
You skim.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Right, I would skim it.
So, you know, I do
a lot of that.
I do rely on -- I do
watch some television news
but not a whole lot
because you can take a lot
of time doing that, and then,
I'll read deeper on issues.
For instance, one of the issues
that I don't really know much
about is all the different
immigration visa statuses
and everything.
And so, you know, I'll ask them,
and they'll generate a report
from the congressional
researchers,
and that will give me a deeper
dive into something that I feel
like I need to know more about.
And so, you know,
we have briefings.
We have secret briefings,
classified briefings.
We've had them on -- we just
had one on Ukraine and Russia.
So, there's always available
-- we can always call experts,
subject experts, in to brief
not just me but, you know,
like I had the credit
unions in today.
So, they're telling me all
their issues the local.
So, there's no problem
getting information.
>> Carla Hayden: Right, it's
how do you sort through it.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Sort through it.
>> Carla Hayden: How
do you absorb it?
Kluge Center, for
instance, does things,
not only public programming
but that type of reference
and experts that are
available to Congress, too.
Same thing.
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Right, right.
>> Carla Hayden: And the
Congressional Research Service,
they're the SWAT teams --
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: They are great.
>> Carla Hayden: -- of info.
They told me they were working
24/7, as fast as we can.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Really?
>> Carla Hayden: Supporting in
terms of getting information.
So, you're balancing that.
Now you mentioned
crossword puzzles and food.
So, you have time for that too?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Well,
that's my go-to-bed thing
is the crossword puzzle,
and I'm doing Wordle.
I must admit.
Yes, I got the one today.
I bombed out two days ago, and
I was pretty upset about that.
So, I enjoy like little
word puzzles, and, you know,
both my parents had Alzheimer's
at the end of their life,
and I'm wondering the
reason I keep doing these,
because I keep saying if
you work crossword puzzles
and keep your mind
active that, you know,
it's going to prevent this.
I'm not sure, really.
My mother did crossword
puzzles all the time.
So I'm not sure that's true.
I just always liked them.
>> Carla Hayden: Yeah, and it's
a way to keep your mind going
without thinking
about stuff and that.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: You
know, when it gets to the end
of the week, it gets harder.
If you do then you know.
>> Carla Hayden: Well, when you
think about women in leadership,
and especially in
Congress, which is, I think,
one of the most, I'd say,
significant ways of serving
and being part of
the legislative body.
Do you see a bright future?
What do you see in
like 2040 or 2045?
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: You know,
I thought about that
coming over here.
What would be considered
a moving up
or moving on, you know?
I don't want to say victory,
because that's not what
you're trying to do.
So, more numbers.
When I first came in, there
were 57 women in the house.
I think there's 120,
I think, now.
There were only seven of us
who had children under the age
of 18, and now, we have Senator
Duckworth had the first baby
in the Senate.
Senator Kathy McMorris
Rodgers has had three children,
and others have had children.
So, you know, that was sort of
considered, you know, unusual,
and now it's, of course,
they're young women,
and they want to be moms.
And so, that goes on.
So, those kinds of marks.
So, I don't know, you know, if
we get to a certain halfway.
You know, there are
50 women senators,
is that where you stop?
I don't see it like that.
I think it's a constant growth.
I don't think there's a number.
I mean, I think that there's --
you want those young girls
that I see in my little program
that I do at home to be
able to aspire and think
that this is something
they could do,
but it doesn't necessarily
what they should do,
but just as one of
the possibilities.
So, I think, probably
more numbers,
more leadership position
for our women,
and we try to mentor a lot.
When I first started in the
Congress and 2001, you know,
Deb Price from Columbus, Ohio,
she was a real mentor to me.
She kind of took
me under her wing.
She was in leadership,
and she helped me a lot.
So, I remember that.
And so, when it came along and
Martha Roby came to Congress
in 2010, I kind of
took her under my wing,
and we're really
good friends today.
So, both of them are
good friends of mine.
So, I think that's
important, too,
promote other women
and women's success.
>> Carla Hayden: Well, when
you were saying, you know,
"Would 50 in the Senate
be enough" and everything,
one of our audience members was
saying, "No, it's not enough."
>> Shelley Moore Capito: No.
>> Carla Hayden:
So you should know.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Seventy five, you know, 100.
>> Carla Hayden:
There's an appetite
for seeing what the
difference might be.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
Maybe that's where it is.
I don't know where that --
I guess my point in
that is if we got to 50,
I don't think everybody
goes, okay, well, we're half.
We're half the population.
Plenty. I'm not sure
that's the answer.
Maybe it's 75.
Maybe it's 100.
>> Carla Hayden: Well, you
certainly are a role model --
>> Shelley Moore
Capito: Well, thank you.
>> Carla Hayden: -- for so many.
You mentioned that
program that you have.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Yes.
>> Carla Hayden: If you
could tell me a little bit --
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Sure,
well, that was the program
that we were going to
do in West Virginia.
We were going to go to
an elementary school,
and I was going to -- you
were going to be exhibit A
on how you could be the
librarian of the Congress,
the first woman librarian, and
unfortunately something happened
that day, and we couldn't --
>> Carla Hayden: Yeah,
I can't remember --
>> Shelley Moore Capito: It
was the flood, wasn't it?
>> Carla Hayden:
That might have been.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Yeah,
so we had to cancel that,
and that's when we sort of
re-jiggered our schedule.
So, I have this program called
West Virginia Girls Rise Up.
I created it when I started
in the senate because --
and it goes back again
to the first question
of where do you make your
impacts and what kind
of influence your parents,
you know, getting into this?
I could see me being approached
of your dad got, you know,
lights on the football
field or your dad helped me.
My son was in Vietnam, and
he wasn't writing me letters,
and he found out where he
was and got him on the phone.
You know, things like
that that he was able
to do as a congressman.
And I thought, what would I want
my daughter to hear about me?
And I thought, you know, I
would like my daughter to hear
that your mother came to my
class when I was in fifth grade,
and that really inspired me
to run for mayor of my city
or President of the United
States or be head of the company
or be the fire chief,
or whatever.
But just to have a memory of
an active woman leader and sort
of demystify the position.
So, I started this, and we have
three sort of stools, education,
physical well-being,
and then confidence.
And then I get them to
talk, and then we have --
it's about 45 minutes, and we
talk about some famous women,
and sometimes I bring a guest,
as I was trying to bring you.
I brought an astronaut,
and Nikki Haley came
with me one time,
and Shannon Bream
from Fox news came one time,
and our great fire chief,
Jan Rader, from Huntington came.
And so, you know, we'll
do different things
to sort of change it up.
The West Virginia
University Gymnastics Team
to came with me one time.
And so, the girls
really like it.
They like to talk about
their dreams and to talk
about what does it
mean to be confident?
Because, you know, if
you talk about you need
on the Senate floor, well,
yeah, we're all one vote,
but if you're lacking
in confidence,
it makes it a little bit harder.
You have to try to be, at
least project confidence
and be confident.
And so, that's what we talk
about, and they understand.
They've thought about this.
So anyway, I'm hoping someday --
>> Carla Hayden:
We're going to do it.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: --
some young girl comes up
to my daughter and says,
I saw your mom at Girls Rise Up,
and it really made a difference.
>> Carla Hayden: And it --
because you remember the
names of the teachers.
>> Shelley Moore Capito: Yep.
>> Carla Hayden: And I don't
think people realize impact
that they have.
So, I do want to
come and be part,
because I think a librarian
following an astronaut would be
pretty cool.
>> Shelley Moore Capito:
You know what's interesting?
We asked her when did she
decide that she wanted
to become an astronaut?
And Peggy Whitson is her name.
She's done the most space
walks of any astronaut.
>> Carla Hayden: Really?
>> Shelley Moore Capito: And
she said she saw them land
on the mood when she
was in second grade,
and that's when she decided.
She got turned down four
times, and then she did it.
>> Carla Hayden: Thank
you, because we really got
into the types of
things that we wanted
to also share during this
Women's History Month.
And I just have to encourage
everyone on your way out,
the Library of Congress has the
archives of Susan B Anthony,
Elizabeth Cady Stanton,
Mary Church Terrell,
all of the pioneers of the
women's suffrage movement,
and we have a wonderful
exhibit during the thing,
and we have the commemorative
booklet for you all
on your way out,Shall
Not be Denied.
Seventy years to get
women the vote, and then,
there's a new copy, and
I would lift this up,
but it is super heavy.
It's like a doorstop,
but it's the Women
of the Congress, and
it just came out.
And you have that in both
of the stores at the House
of Representatives
and the Congress.
So, it's hot off the presses.
Thank you.