>> Monica Mohindra: Hello. When I use the phrase, a US veteran, what is the picture that springs to mind? For our staff here at the Library of Congress Veterans History Project, the questions who in this room is a veteran versus who here served in the US military often elicit very different answers, different hands are raised, and that is just one reason to thank you for joining us for today's I Am Not Invisible 3.0 panel discussion. I am Monica Mohindra, the director of the Library of Congress Veterans History Project, a special collection of the American Folklife Center. We welcome those joining us online to please use the chat function to engage in questions throughout the program. To those joining us in person, it is our honor to have you here in the beautiful Jefferson Building of the Library of Congress. Thank you for joining us today. For over 20 years, the Veterans History Project has been collecting, preserving, and making accessible discoverable the firsthand recollections of our nation's veterans. To date, we have amassed 112 -- over 112 individual recollections of veterans from World War One through the more recent conflicts and peacekeeping missions, those who wore the uniform. The memories in this archive represent an impressive achievement and are an enriching source for a greater understanding of our collective history. Each account is as unique as the individual who offered to share their experiences. Their recollections are expressed in a variety of formats from audio, video, recordings, photographs, journals, unpublished memoirs, and more. Created by Congress in 2000, the Veterans History Project does not rely on professionals like oral historians, journalists, anthropologists, rather it is individuals and organizational participants across the country who voluntarily sit down with the veteran or Gold Star family member in their lives or communities and listen and record what those experiences, what their experiences were like. Using the archival principles found on our website, these volunteer participants then submit narratives to the Library of Congress, and they become part of our national memory. These stories are accessed regularly by family members, by researchers, authors, makers, members of Congress and others through our online database at loc.gov/vets or in person by appointment at the Library's American Folklife Center Reading Room. Back to the question I started with, questions. Women Veterans are not only frequently overlooked by those around them, but even today, some struggle to consider themselves veterans. Women have volunteered to serve in our military for over 200 years, from nurses, codebreakers, pilots, surgeons, mechanics, to frontline workers and everything in between, women veterans have done it all. Yet, too often, their stories of service and sacrifice go untold and underrecognized. Veterans Affairs, our colleagues, estimate that there are over 19 million veterans in the United States today. 10% of that population consists of women veterans. As the fastest growing group in the veteran population, this number is expected to grow to 18% by 2040. It is imperative that we let these women veterans know that they are seen and to offer an authentic platform to share their memories, reflections, and thoughts. The Veterans History Project and the Veterans Affairs Center for Women Veterans have long had a history of cooperation, and we are thrilled to collaborate with them in today's panel discussion that will not only commemorate Women's History Month but International Women's Day. We are honored to welcome our guest panelists and look forward to learning so much about your experiences. Before we get to that, it is my great honor to introduce the director of the US Department of Veterans Affairs Center for Women Veterans, Lourdes Tiglao. Thank you, Lourdes. Thank you all. [ Applause ] >> Lourdes Tiglao: Thank you so much, Monica, for the kind welcome and the warm, warm words. We're equally as enthusiastic in this meaningful collaboration and especially to learn more from these incredible women seated before me. The Center for Women Veterans is proud to partner with the Library of Congress in this campaign, and the women serving at the center, both veterans and family members, are proud to serve our sister veterans. Our Center's mission is threefold, to monitor and coordinate VA's administration of healthcare benefits, services, and program for women veterans to serve as an advocate for cultural transformation both internally and externally and to raise awareness of everyone's responsibility to treat women veterans with dignity and respect. Portland 2017, then Oregon women veterans coordinator and Army veteran Elizabeth Estabrooks had a vision to bring awareness to women veterans barriers and challenges in accessing healthcare and benefits and other services, and that was brought to life through the I Am Not Invisible campaign. 2018, VA Center for Women Veterans adopted the program and has since crossed 50 states, 74 cities, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and 28 Native American and Alaska Native nations, capturing more than 3,200 photos of women veteran images, 3,200. For the I Am Not Invisible campaign, or IANI, 2018 was only the beginning. December 2020, IANI 2.0 kicked off. The goal? To change the culture of gender-based harassment by strategically placing these images in VA medical facilities. By seeing themselves reflected, we wanted women veterans to feel welcome in their own spaces and normalize for everyone to see women as veterans, too. After all, women have been serving since the Revolutionary War. IANI 3.0 saw the campaign's mission evolve to providing women veterans a prominent and enduring platform to share their thoughts, reflections, and life stories through the Library of Congress' Veterans History Project. Each woman veteran who participates experiences it differently, each carrying something away, letting something go, but almost always coming away with a head lifted up just a little bit higher, standing just a little straighter. The Center uses the campaign as a vehicle to share our message of unity, support, and empowerment with as many women veterans as possible. In just a moment, we'll hear from three women who participated in VA's I Am Not Invisible campaign and the Veterans History Project. We'll hear about their experience participating in both campaigns, their military service, and part of their life stories. But first, I'd like to welcome a few guests. To kick us off and introduce today's panel, it gives me absolute pleasure to introduce the honorable Denis McDonough. Before coming to VA, he served as the 26th White House chief of staff and as principal deputy national security adviser. He believes deeply, as he testified to Congress, that there is no more secret obligation, no noble undertaking than to uphold our promises to our veterans, whether they come home decades ago or days ago. Please join me in welcoming the 11th secretary of Veterans Affairs, Denis McDonough. [ Applause ] >> Denis McDonough: Lourdes, Monica, thanks for inviting me to be part of the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and VA Center for Women Veterans I Am Not Invisible campaign 3.0. I'm honored to join Representative Brownley, Representative Bost, and all of you in celebrating women veterans. You know women have been defending our freedom since the Revolutionary War, and in their stories, we find inspirational examples of courage, unwavering service, and immense sacrifices for this country. Yet, for far too long, many women veterans have felt that their service didn't matter. For far too long, many women veterans have felt like their voices weren't being heard. For far too long, they've been invisible. Well, thanks to veteran Liz Estabrooks and her visionary leadership, we're helping change that with the I Am Not Invisible campaign. You see behind me here in the main hallway entering the VA Secretary's Office some of the fruits of Liz's labor. These are pictures and stories of women veterans from across the country, who shared their stories in their own words. Their pictures and stories remind us that we owe our freedom to the sacrifices of these women and millions of other women veterans just like them. The campaign is a great way for women veterans across the country to share their stories in their own words, and I'm told, participating can be an uplifting, transformational, even healing experience for women veterans themselves. Later today, veteran Robin Fortner will tell you about how her participation in this effort inspired her advocacy for women veterans. Veteran Sheila Kensinger-Clark will tell you how it helped her become more connected to her Native American heritage, and you'll also hear from veteran Suzanne Brick. Suzanne will tell you how honored she felt to be seen as a woman veteran participating in the I Am Not Invisible campaign. I was going to be visible, she said, I was proud of me. All women veterans should feel that kind of pride that these veterans feel, and we should encourage them to tell their stories. More than that, we should be honored to hear their stories. These stories of women veterans from women veterans are a gift to yourselves, to your families, to students, and historians, and to this country, because they show all of us how you contributed to something greater, and they help us learn about the enormous sacrifices of so many women veterans like yourselves. You know, World War Two veteran Lieutenant Anne Brehm once encouraged her fellow veterans to let the generations know that women in uniform also guaranteed their freedom, that our resolve was as great as the brave men who stood among us. Those powerful words are now etched in the glass ceiling of the Military Women's Memorial in Arlington. This is your chance to etch your own words in history, to enshrine your stories in our Library of Congress, so generations to come will know you helped guarantee their freedom. And in so doing, you'll make this country stronger, just like you always have. Reach out to VA Center for Women Veterans and learn how you can tell your story of service. Send them an email at 00W@VA.gov. That's 00W@VA.gov or visit VA Center for Women Veterans website at www.VA.gov/womenvet one word. That's www.VA.gov/womenvet. Women veterans, you are not invisible. We see you, we appreciate you, we thank you, and may god bless you, and may god bless our troops, our veterans, their families, caregivers, and survivors, and may we always give all of them our very best. >> Julia Brownley: Hello, I'm Congresswoman Julia Bromley. Despite centuries of honorable service and constant steady growth in the veteran population since the start of the all volunteer force, women who serve our country are still often treated as second-class service members and veterans. Their service is often overlooked and underappreciated, leading many women veterans to feel unheard and unseen. Hearing the stories of women veterans firsthand helps us better understand the challenges they face, the communities they represent, and address the issues that they are facing. As chair of the House Veteran Affairs Health Subcommittee, I founded the Women's Veterans Task Force to give a voice to the women veterans community and acknowledge their invaluable service to our country. In fact, through broad bipartisan support, Congress passed the Deborah Sampson Act, the most comprehensive women veterans legislation in over a decade. This banner accomplishment for women, for the Women's Veterans Task Force, the bill will help address the inequities and barriers that women veterans face when accessing VA care and benefits. I introduced the Deborah Sampson Act in honor of the service of women veterans and to address the barriers that women veterans still face today. The Deborah Sampson Act recognizes women veterans by ensuring inclusivity and equitable access to resources, benefits, and services. But more importantly, it sent the message to America's women veterans that we hear you, we see you, and we thank you for your service. That is why I'm so proud to join the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and VA Center for Women Veterans in their efforts to showcase our nation's women veterans, their service and sacrifice and their tremendous contributions to the rich history of our country. Through the Veterans History Project and the I Am Not Invisible campaign, volunteers have recorded the stories, memories, and reflections of women veterans like Major Charity Adams Earley, who served as commander to the first and only all-female and all-black Army unit, Lieutenant Colonel Marisol Chalas, who was the first Latina Black Hawk helicopter pilot, Michelin Bigmiff [phonetic], an Army veteran and founder of the Native American Women Lawyers Organization and women veterans like my constituent Josette Wingo, a gunnery instructor during World War Two. This Women's History Month let us celebrate America's women veterans, let us continue to uplift their voices and commemorate their significant role in our nation's story. >> Mike Bost: Hi, everyone, I'm Congressman Mike Bost, the proud representative of the Illinois 12th district and the lead Republican on the House Veterans Affairs Committee. And while I'm a son, grandson, and nephew of veterans, and the father and grandfather of two active duty Marines, I am also a proud Marine Corps veteran myself, oorah. I strive every day to live up to the promise President Lincoln made to our veterans and their families who selflessly sacrificed in defense of our freedoms. We owe it to every veteran and Gold Star family member to do what we can do to support them, and sometimes the best thing we can do is simply listen. You know, the Veterans History Project collects and preserves the stories and memories of those who served, so that they can be shared with future generations. Now, I'm grateful for the vitally important work they do, and I was honored to participate in an oral history interview for the Veterans History Project in October 2019, to speak about my time in uniform. I remembered things I hadn't thought about in a long time and good people I met along the way, and I realized the importance of veterans sharing their memories before it's too late. Our veterans' stories are a part of the American story, and I want our grandchildren and their children and their children's children to hear them. Now, women are the fastest growing group of servicemembers and veterans today, and I have had the opportunity to sit down with a number of female veterans to listen to their experiences and learn how we can all be better advocates and supporters of them. You know, this Women's History Month, I encourage you to think about the women veterans in your life and inspire them to tell their stories. You know, I'm glad to see that the VA Center for Women's Veterans and the Library of Congress Veterans History Project is hosting today's I Am Not Invisible 3.0 discussion. You know, this is an excellent opportunity to dive in to what service was like for different women veterans. You know, I hope you enjoy this presentation, and I thank you, and god bless the generations of women and men who've served this great country. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: What a way to kick off a discussion. Many thanks to Monica and the staff at the Library of Congress Veterans History Project for including me as the moderator for today's panel. And thanks to Lourdes for introducing the I Am Not Invisible project. My name is Elizabeth Estabrooks, deputy director for the VA Center for Women Veterans. I created the I Am Not Invisible project, because women veterans are, in fact, invisible, and that message was a clap back to everyone. It was a message that said, see me, I am not going to let you not see me anymore. I'm an Army veteran. I joined the military in 1977, to a newly integrated Army, and I was in the second wave of women to go through coed basic training in Fort Jackson, South Carolina. It was clear that women are not welcome in what they still called This Man's Army. For the few women in my company in Germany and for the small number of women on our post, our lives were made very difficult. I was unable and unwilling to tolerate the bad behavior of the men or the Army for that fact. I left after three years, and over the years, I didn't see myself as a veteran. I was just a girl who was in the Army once. I was invisible. It wasn't until 30 years later, when I was in grad school, that I began to identify as a veteran. I realized how invisible we are, and since then, I focused on improving services for women veterans to ensure that they know that we see them, we hear them, and we are them, to help lift the veil of invisibility. These women here today, just like those who came before them, remind us that while women in the armed forces have come through much since the Revolutionary War, the camouflage ceiling remains in place. What better way to learn during Women's History Month than to hear the voices of women veterans such as Robin, Suzanne, and Sheila. Sheila, will you kick things off for us and tell us a little bit about yourself? >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: I am an Army veteran. It's surreal. I joined 33 years ago in [inaudible]. Sorry, I'm emotional already. It was a difficult journey, not just not being supported by my family and my friends that I joined, but being told that the Army was no place for a Barbie doll like me. So, I got on an airplane for the very first time in my life to go to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. That made me determined to show that I belonged, and 33 years later, I have served as not only a soldier both in the Signal Corps and Communications, but later as a federal employee, as an intelligence analyst, working in the North Korea mission. I've worked as a contractor. I'm a mother of two adult daughters, who are very proud of our Army roots. I also was a military spouse for 23 years. When I left the Army, I had active cancer. So, I didn't wear my uniform very much while I was on active duty, and that probably helps kind of separate me from feeling like a veteran. And I was often asked about whether I, you know, people thought I was a flight attendant when I traveled, and because of the work I did, I'd let them believe that, but the hardest part was leaving the Army and transitioning right into being an Army spouse and, again, being in the shadows. Even when I returned as a federal employee working in the Pentagon and secretary of the Army's Office, when they see me, they don't see a soldier. People often forget that I'm a veteran, even today where I work at the -- working at the VA now, and people are always very surprised, and just recently, thanks to this campaign, I felt connected for the first time and to be able to say I'm an Army veteran. I added that to my signature block, and it is surreal how many people have noticed that on my my signature block, but if it wasn't, you know, this campaign made me proud and reconnect to my Army roots, and for the first time, I felt seen. Thank you. I hope we can all learn a lot from each other and just see how far we have come in these last 33 years that I've been serving our nation and our nation's veterans. Thank you for having me here. >> [In Unison] Thank you, Sheila. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Robin, can you share a little bit about your background? >> Robin Fortner: After that one? Yes, Ma'am. No, we are [inaudible] we are here for her, just as a sister, even though we just met, so, but absolutely. My name is Robin Fortner. I'm originally from New York City. I joined the Marine Corps in 1990, so I'm a Marine Corps vet of 30 years. I just retired October of 2020. My path is a little bit different but yet the same, and that's what I love about the military is that you can find yourself in a lot of different people's shoes. The reason I joined the Marine Corps is, because I come from a single mom home, right? So, I didn't know which way I was going to go after high school. She wanted me to do college. I did college for a year, and then I took my own path, right? So, let me go do something, so I don't put the burden on her. I joined the Marine Corps, just like many people. For years, so I -- that's all I was doing. In fact, I left a boyfriend back home and told him I'll be back. I never came back, right? So, but things happen, life happens. I joined the Marine Corps without understanding what it was about. I wanted to do something different, and I was the only Marine in my family at the time, and still, I'm the only female Marine who joined. I'm actually the only female in my family who has joined. So, things were a little bit different. I didn't have anybody at home to fall on or to call back or anything like that. So, I had to make my way. I think I was born, and it was just resilience and grit in my blood, and I continued to move on. I thought it was going to be four years, but at the end of the four years, I just remembered what my mama told me. She said, hey, if you're going to do something, you better do it the best you can do it. Okay, mom, and I just kept moving, and four years turned into eight years, eight years turned into 12 years. Next thing I know it was 20 years. I, too, was married to an active duty spouse. We got divorced at around my 20-year mark, and the last 10 years I've been a single mom just doing it on my own. I do have two daughters who are now adults, and they've been my backbone. So, when I think of family, it's my sacrifices for those two right there, and I just try to put one foot in front of the other and keep moving. I look back, and what -- I think what this campaign has done for me is that you don't really understand all your accomplishments till you really start thinking about them, right, like, wow, I did that, right? By the time I was about to retire, because I did 30, everybody was like, go home and just relax. I can't say everybody, but that was kind of the mantra. You did 30 years, it's time to relax, things like that. I couldn't do that, right? So, but still, you know, you look for ways to do things like this, so to be a part of different things for veterans, because it's important to me. I've watched the Marine Corps grow. I've watched women in the Marine Corps grow. I know what it was like in boot camp, and then I went back down as a drill instructor, and then I went back down as a sergeant major of 4th Battalion. You went in 1977, first newly integrated, we just integrated. The Marine Corps book camp just integrated. That's a long way, right? That's a little bit different, but again, it's been my pleasure to watch it grow, and it's been my responsibility to help it grow and to push it forward, but that's me in a nutshell. I am honored to be here. I want to say thank you to Liz as well for your vision. I think you spoke something out loud that many of us probably said in our heads thousands of times when we walk into a room and feel invisible or when we walk down the street and feel invisible. And yet this campaign is something that's global now and has brought that thought process out of our mind and into the lives and the homes of many people watching, and my hope today is that we can be authentic as possible, right, through tears no matter what it is, and we all feel what we're going to feel and that that's something that the folks can actually take away and feel the energy in this room. So, thank you again for having me. >> Suzanne Brick: Thank you for being here. >> Robin Fortner: Yes, Ma'am. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Suzanne, what would you like to say? >> Suzanne Brick: Well, my name is Suzanne Brick, and I am a Marine Corps veteran. I served on active duty in 1990 to 2000, 10 years. My path, as all of ours are very different from each other, I grew up in a military family. So, being surrounded in a military community was what I knew, and it was all I knew from my very first breath. So, to me, it seemed a natural path to take. My father was in the Navy for 30 years. He was a CB, and my initial intent was to follow in his footsteps, because he was my dad, and he was the only service member that I knew. So, my intent was just to simply follow in his footsteps and till I finally came to the point that I was ready to make a move, and it was a few things that drove me to that decision, though. I, as a young child, I faced sexual trauma, and where I would go to find my own strength, but also to hide but to have my own place where nobody could hurt me, was sports. And so, as it came close to graduation from high school, and I was graduating from an all-girls school, and the nuns there said, who joins the military, you don't join the military. And I said, yes, yes, I do, and yes, I will. But I wanted to find someplace where I could find and hold on to that physical challenge that gave me peace and strength, and the Marine Corps was that place. I'll admit that, you know, I spoke to the services, but there was the ego in me that said, you know, Suzanne, the Marine Corps is the toughest one out there, and if you chose not to take the toughest challenge, you'll always know that you chose not to take the toughest challenge. So, my own ego had gotten away there, and I have no regrets. I have no regrets. I was looking for a family that would protect me from my abusers. I was looking for a place where I could be strong on my own, where I could just be my own person, and the Marine Corps gave me that. I remember in boot camp learning to climb the rope and one of my drill instructors. They were very patient with us in teaching each one of us how to climb a rope, and, of course, we're all just trying to jump on a rope and shimmy up, and we're not getting but maybe an inch off the ground, but I've forced myself to stop and listen and told myself, Suzanne, these drill instructors are here to teach you, they're not here to hurt you, they're here to keep you safe and just listen to the instructions, and you can do it. And I got up that rope, and that was the lesson that stayed with me the most, that I can do it. My career, my military career -- the sexual assaults didn't stop in my childhood. I was sexually assaulted on active duty. I was also raped on active duty. My decision to leave the Marine Corps in 2000 was kind of for a couple different reasons. My career, most of it was spent at the headquarters level, so here in Washington DC and at Quantico, and I had created a network for myself on the outside with civilians in the offices and the businesses and corporations and agencies that I worked with. So, I felt confident that I had established myself, but also, I couldn't stay in a service where my peers were backstabbing, where my peers were assaulting me and I had nowhere to turn. As a woman, I'm sure there are many that share the same experience. Nobody was going to listen to me. I was a single woman, and those that assaulted me were married men with families. I didn't stand a chance, and so I decided to take a chance on myself and walk away from a military community that I had known since my very first breath. So, for 30 years, it was what I knew. It was all I knew. I didn't know how to be a civilian, but I knew I couldn't stay where I was. I took that leap. I have no regrets. I have enjoyed my life since leaving the military, and here in Washington DC, you have a lot of service members or a lot of folks that you've run into that are prior service, and you feel that, you know, I should feel as though I'm in a community, but you're not. You're not, and especially since I didn't retire from the military, so I don't have a retirement community that I can reach out to. I was enlisted. I separated by my own choice, and there I stood on an island trying to figure out how do I fit in as a civilian, and I found sports. I found sports as my common denominator to figure out how to be a civilian, and fast forward through my different career moves, it brought me to where I am now and being introduced to the I Am Not Invisible campaign, I remember when it first came out a few years ago, and I was so envious of those women that had the opportunity to be photographed and be seen for the first time. I wanted to be seen, and when given the opportunity, I jumped on it, not knowing what I was getting into, definitely not knowing what I was getting into, but it has forever changed me, and just as Robin had mentioned, you know, it caused me to pause and look back on my career and really be proud of myself. And so, it's propelled me to a new place in my life that I am just so excited to be. So, I thank you, Liz, for your vision and for what you have given me and so many more. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: You're welcome. >> Suzanne Brick: So, thank you. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: You're welcome, and thank you, thank you for sharing all of that about your challenges that you faced while growing up and in the military, and I'm really glad that you spoke about, you know, your strength and resilience and how through all of that that was, you know, that was what you are, and it is what you are, and so I thank you for sharing the hard stuff and the good stuff. So Sheila, I want to ask you to speak about your decision to join the Army and how that decision was received by your family and friends. >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: I'm from a town in Washington State called Everett, and when I -- I originally joined when I was 15 years old. It was the first time when I took the first oath. Obviously, I had to stay and delay entry for a couple of years, but where I came from, at that time, the Navy was trying to put a base there, and that was not a popular thing. That was not a military town. Nobody in my area joined the military and certainly not a female. I was the first female wrestler at my high school, but when I got off the bus, everybody thought I was a wrestler's girlfriend. So, I think I kind of already had that tenacity of tell me I can't do something, and I'm just going to run out and show you I can. So, my parents, I mean, my stepfather's a retired warrant officer, and he retired a few years before I raised my hand for the first time, and he wasn't very supportive. His stepsons joined the Army, and he was very proud, but again, he told me the Army wasn't a place for a Barbie doll like me, and he ate those words three years later. But -- and my mother, she hadn't been exposed to military life. She had no idea. All she knew was her baby was going to go far away and do something dangerous, and it was just very unknown to her. So, she -- my family wanted me to stay close. They wanted me to go work for Microsoft or Boeing or, you know, something close to home like everyone else, but again, I wanted to go jump from perfectly good airplanes. Mind you, I never had been on a plane, let alone jump from one, but I got that in my contract, and I said, you know, like Robin, I was raised by a single teenage mother, who did not have family. Her parents had both passed, and there wasn't a lot of money at home. There were four teenagers and a brand-new baby in the house, and I said, well, you know, my guidance counselor told me, honey, you probably shouldn't go to college. And I'm like, what do I do now, right? Again, I was determined, tell me, don't go to college. I don't have money for college. Guess what? The military will give me money for college, and they're going to let me jump out of these planes. It's kind of cool. Again, my friends, they all thought I was crazy, and I'd say, I joined the Army, and they're like, you did what? It wasn't popular. People were taking bets that I was going to back out, even as I was going to the airport with my family to get on the plane. It may not have been a popular thing for somebody like me to raise their hand and put that uniform on, but it's one of the proudest things I've ever done, and everybody back home, when I got home, they're just like, they're in awe because of the things that we've seen, the people we've met, our experiences, understanding the cultures that, you know, we've been exposed to. You know, my own children are -- they feel very blessed, right? So, I go home, and people asked me a lot of questions about where I've been and who I've encountered and the people. So, I, you know, I now wear that very proudly. Like I said before, I never saw myself as a veteran, and I kind of kept that hidden, because my entire career, I started training, I didn't wear the uniform. I couldn't say I was affiliated with the military. So, I'd been in the shadows my whole career, and then I was in my spouse's shadows. So, I'm grateful I'm proud to say I'm a veteran, and I love to see the look on people's face, because I know I don't sport the haircut. >> Suzanne Brick: It's okay. [ Laugher ] >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you. Robin, while serving on the active duty, you took on a dynamic role in preserving the legacy of female Marines, women Marines, through two monumental ceremonies, celebrating 70 years of women Marines with nearly half that time as a Marine yourself. Can you explain a few takeaways you learned and how -- why preserving these legacies was of importance to you? >> Robin Fortner: Wow, yes. This was the -- it was actually the 69th and 70th anniversary, and most women know that around 1943, February 13th is kind of a historical day, right? Some don't know. I guess everybody knows. I think every year we're teaching somebody that that's a historical day. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Every year on Facebook. >> Robin Fortner: Every year on Facebook, and I'm going to be honest, at the time, I didn't know it, because that's not something we teach in boot camp. It was just not part of the history, but it should be. So, this was down at 4th Battalion. 4th Battalion, for those who don't know, that's our -- at the time it was segregated, but that's where all the women in the Marine Corps went for boot camp, the only place, Parris Island, and that was the female battalion. So, I was the sergeant major at the time of that battalion. So, that was actually a perfect spot to happen, right? What better spot to have a historical event, but my commanding officer is the one who thought about it. It's like, let's do something big for the 69th [inaudible]. Let's do something big. All you have to do is tell the command sergeant major one thing, got it, man, rolling, right, we out, and that's what we did. It was absolutely huge. We paired with the Women Marines Association, and globally, we had women come in from all over, and we transformed that battalion to a historical museum. When you walked in, you felt like you was walking through time, and many people helped us out to get artifacts and things from World War One, World War Two, because just like we said earlier, that's -- god, it was 69 years, but we've been serving since the Revolutionary War. So, we wanted to show that at the same time, and it was phenomenal, because like many women, they had gotten out after three years, two years, 10 years. We have some on active duty, but many of the women there were veterans, who had just gotten out, and to come back to the place where everybody goes through boot camp, that was monumental for them, monumental. So, we had it set up. We did a big ceremony. We even took them to the squad bays. We put them online, like it was in the boot camp, you know, they had to relive that just a little bit. Put some in the pit, you know, we had a little fun. >> Suzanne Brick: Glad I wasn't there with you. >> Robin Fortner: But with that, another thing we did that time for the 69th is we collected items to put in a time capsule, and it's funny you asked me that question now, because this is the 10th year. So, this would be the 79th anniversary, and our goal this summer is to go back and take that time capsule back out, but we wanted to capture history, capture a moment in time. So, what that meant was, too, one thing it did, and this is why I love the Library of Congress and what we do here in this project. Very juvenile, if you say, it was simply a computer, but we let the ladies sit down and just tell their stories, and we get to hear those stories this summer about things they said 10 years ago, but what caught me as an active duty sergeant major at the time, because when you're in uniform, you don't realize the effect when you get out the uniform. You don't really understand it. You just don't, but to watch the ladies and how many, like the stories here, they had never told this story before or some had never been back around their sisters again or, you know, everyone had a different take, right? But it was very rewarding from the outside and just watching all of this transpire just from a vision, right, just to watch it all transpire but what it meant to everybody there. So, when I bought the active duty drill instructors alongside with the ones who have served before and stories exchanging, you can see the camaraderie build up. You can see the love of just being a service member, and that was -- it was an absolutely huge takeaway, and, I mean, they're excited now to go back. They're like, yeah, remember that, you know, so they're excited now. It's turning, but you see it, gather them up again and where they can go back and be around someone who can understand the language, you know, someone who understands their plight or maybe went through the same things. And for those of us who wasn't there then, I truly love sitting down, listening to stories of those who have come before me, because things are different, and you're like, wow. And sometimes it's things that we take for granted, and we don't realize how many people have paved the way before we got to where we're at. It makes you appreciate things that much more, that much more. So, huge takeaway, and I'm excited to go back down again. I think it's important to do once a year. My Facebook page will blow up on February 13th, and I'm always trying to push it, because it's huge for us to know about, and I tell them, this is not just, you know, women's history, this is military history, so that it's known around as well. Thanks for asking that question, Liz. Thank you. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you for answering. I love the answer. >> Robin Fortner: Thank you. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: I can't wait to see what comes up from that capsule. >> Robin Fortner: I just hope the capsule is still in place. I'm not saying we did a good job putting it in the ground, but it's in the ground. I know [inaudible] praying to [inaudible] let it be recognizable. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: So, I know that all three of you participated in this wonderful campaign and then later the Veterans History Project oral history. Suzanne, I understand that your participation was a transformative experience, as you've shared a little bit, and even impacted the outcome of your later Veterans History Project oral history. Would you please share with the group the details of that experience? If you're okay with that. >> Suzanne Brick: Sure. Sure, sure, thank you. I don't mind sharing at all, and actually, you know, this campaign has allowed me to be comfortable with sharing, and so I'm happy to do so. As I had previously mentioned, having gone through sexual trauma as a child and as, again, while I was on active duty, and, you know, there were times even after I left active duty that I was still assaulted again in different situations. And when you've been assaulted or you encounter something of that nature, that traumatic, you hide yourself, you hide within yourself, trying not to be seen so that it doesn't happen again. And I just found myself continuing to do that throughout my entire life, and my career choice as an administrator and most of my active duty years were assignments, serving in offices behind great leaders, where you're in their shadow. You're just in their shadow. You don't have a voice. Nobody's asking your opinion. Nobody wants to know your thoughts. So professionally, I even made myself invisible, and it was a hard balance to strike that I knew I was strong, but yet I also wanted -- I had become a shadow of myself, and I didn't know how to break free of that at all. And I had really just resigned myself to feeling that way, and when I was afforded the opportunity to participate and to take that photo, we had to go through a few takes on that one. Thank you, Jean Russell, for being patient. I found myself releasing layers and layers and layers of the shell that I built up around myself within myself out of protection, and at that last photo, I broke down and cried. Because this is how I felt, but I felt so good. It felt so good to be free, and I went home feeling mixed, because I was seeing all of these photos. Look at the beautiful smiles, these vibrant women, and yet I was so conflicted because of the traumas that had just been unearthed. How could these women be smiling so big and so bright, but yet I felt so torn? And I went home, and I pulled out my box of all of my Marine Corps treasures and papers and ribbons and medals and letters of recommendation and citations, and I touched them all. I reread them all, and I saw me. I saw the Marine that was shining back then, and I let her come forward. I brought her forward to today. I don't carry those shells. I don't carry those walls anymore. I carry my five-year-old self, my 12-year-old self, PFC, lance corporal, corporal sergeant, staff sergeant, the civilian Suzanne, I carry all of them with me now proudly, because that's them right there and right here. And I decided that while I may have held jobs that require me to be invisible, I'm not. I'm not going to allow myself to be invisible to myself. I can't control how somebody else sees me, but I know I am not invisible anymore, and I have a voice, and I'm going to use my voice now, and it's interesting, because just after I participated, I was asked to speak to a group of community leaders that are putting together a program for young girls. And it was the first time anyone had ever asked me to speak about my military experience, why I joined the Marine Corps, and that night, I thought of all the safe story to tell, the PC story to tell, but I didn't want to. I didn't want to tell the PC story. I wanted to tell my story, and I was proud to tell my story, and while I had traumatic experiences, I continued to believe in myself, and I didn't really notice that and appreciate that until now. And I don't remember what the question was. [ Laughter ] >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Well, you answered [inaudible] full job answering it, Suzanne. Thank you. You're killing it up here. >> Suzanne Brick: Only because I have these sisters that I never knew I had. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: And here they are. >> Suzanne Brick: And, you know, leaving the military and from my experiences, I didn't trust women. I have not trusted women as friends. They've always let me down, and it wasn't until this campaign that I was embraced as a sister, and now I know I have sisters, and it's almost like being in Marine Corps boot camp all over again with my sisters all around me, and we're all going through the same battle together. But while I have my team, my tribe, I also have myself. So, even if they can't be there with me to help me, I know I've got it within me, and I know I have them within me. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. >> Suzanne Brick: Thank you for letting me. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Fabulous story. Fabulous tale of your truth. I appreciate it. >> Suzanne Brick: I like her. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: So do we. Thank you for participating. >> Suzanne Brick: Thank you for having me. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Wow. So Sheila, back to you. So, I know that you, like many women who have been in the military, have experienced triumphs and traumas, as we've heard, and that has left you perhaps with some residual post-traumatic stress. Would you be able to or willing to share your experiences And also with that, what have you learned and how have you been able to manage that? And, you know, and if you don't want to share your experiences of trauma, what would you like to talk about with your triumphs and what your experiences in the military were? >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: Suzanne, your story really resonates with me. I, too, have worked with some very powerful people, who over -- destroyed boundaries that were in place. I had been raped, and I was the only female in my AIT course, and that came with some challenges. I loved my time in the Army, despite the good, the bad, the otherwise. The traumas I've experienced, the rapes, sexual harassment, the sexual assaults, both while I was single and even continued while I was married and very pregnant, it affected me, it affected my husband, and I believe trauma, I think, we kind of come to a crossroads. You can take that trauma, and you could try to make it into something more positive, or you can let it destroy you, and I think you guys have already figured out I'm pretty damn tenacious. I was determined that I wasn't going to let my trauma define me, and I wasn't going to let it destroy me either. I went through a lot of soul searching. I got divorced about six years ago. I never faced by PTSD. I was in the intelligence field, where I couldn't even go to a counselor with fear I would lose my career. Unfortunately, when my marriage was [inaudible] in 2013, I had to face my trauma. I had to face what those effects had done to me, and that was before the changes in 2014, so security clearances. But I've realized, as much as I wanted to hold my career, I needed to -- I need to find myself again. I needed to come to terms with that. So, I did what I had to, and that was risk my career to survive my trauma and come to terms with it. Again, don't let it define who I am, don't want to destroy me. I spent about 10 months off and on in a metal facility. People that know me are like, she's strong, and it shocked a lot of people, but again, I was going for broke, because I had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. I learned about the trauma. I confronted it. I learned how to cope with it. It doesn't mean that I'm better. It shouldn't say better but that I'm cured, I guess that's what I'm looking for, and better, but I'm not cured, and that's okay. It's made me who I am. I feel very open about that part of my journey, and I realized that it has helped many of my fellow veterans, not just female veterans, but male veterans, and I'm not ashamed of that anymore, you know? It's who I am. It doesn't define who I am going to be moving forward. It's really, I mean, I'm so thankful that the rules have changed, allowing so many to be able to seek help. My own spouse has struggled. My ex-spouse has struggled with that and many of my friends, and I'm a huge advocate for, it's okay, don't feel the shame. The stigma is not there as it once was. It's important. It's important to get help, and you realize you don't suffer in silence anymore, that you are not alone, and it's rare to have the different phases in life. Dealing with the trauma and facing it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done. Forget, you know, being -- only working with men, and, I mean, that is hard, especially in the late 80s, early 90s, right, and jumping from planes and, you know, doing the [inaudible] mission, but facing my trauma was the hardest thing, peeling back those layers, reliving what happened. But I'm better for it. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you. Thank you. I want to thank you especially for your honesty and for talking about the healing and getting -- seeking help and the stigma, and I hope that a lot of the listeners take that to heart, because it's not our shame to bear, and so thank you. >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: Thank you. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: So Robin, you're our longest-serving veteran of the panel with 30 years of service. You have seen the changes such as women being able to serve on combat ships and fly fighter jets in 1993, to the decision to give women the opportunity to fill US military combat positions, very long in the making. We have made remarkable strides, perhaps in part thanks to those men who have served alongside women and experienced the significance of their unique skills and abilities, their value to the mission and their sacrifice. What can we all do to further this growth? >> Robin Fortner: I wish I had that magic wand, Liz. I sure do, but there's, you know, there's just so much to do. I think just to go back and highlight some of the triumphs that women have. So, I like this question, because it does kind of show evolution and growth from the tactical side. You know, we can't forget we joined the military, right? So, there's still some growth there that we have to be a part of, and that's one thing that I loved about my career is I was able to see some of those things and be a part of that and influence that at the same time as well. I'm going to stomp on the combat roles piece. So, I did get an opportunity to serve as the sergeant major for a unit called the Ground Combat Element Integrated Task Force, and that was the Marine Corps push to validate women in combat roles. I'll say that, if you recall, this is back in 2014 or so, the Secretary of Defense had already lifted the exclusion policy, but gave in like a period of time where the services can come back and put an exception to that policy. So, the Marine Corps put together this unit, which nobody understood what it was about, nobody understood how to put it together, but they wanted to validate the exemption, if you will, and not let it just be on a subjective notion or what we've always done. And that was historical, and it was absolutely an eye-opening to how women stepped up and were very tenacious and what they was called to do, and they knew that. They knew that. So, this unit was mostly men. So, it was the first time we actually put women into combat roles and where they actually got the MOSs themselves. We didn't just give it to them. They had to go through the exact same pipeline as an entry level and go through it and earn the MOS themselves. So, I love that. I love that, because when they got into the unit, that confidence was there. They went through the same training as a PFC would do, right? Even though they were NCOs actually, most of them, but they still had to go through as if they was a PFC, and they chose, raised their hand in the air, , nd they chose to do it. Why? Because they knew 10 years, 20 years later, it's going to affect somebody, right? It's going to make the difference between not being included or not, but to your point about what we can do, what I love about that unit is that we didn't accommodate the women, and I'm going to use that word again, because that's been somewhat of my mantra as well. I heard -- General Reynolds's is her name. She talks about that, that many, too often, in any service or any place where we're trying to integrate or we're trying to add more, we're trying to boost our numbers or whatever the case may be, we accommodate women, right? We just make a way for them to put that check in a box, and we accommodate them being there. In this case, instead of them actually having to just be sent to the unit, they had to earn a place in the unit, right, so that they can be included and stand right next to their male counterparts, showing them that they could do the exact same job. And we -- there was no special treatment whatsoever, and they had to get pushed through that training for over 14 months to prove or to validate women in combat roles and let the leaders do what they're going to do. That wasn't our concern at the time. Our concern at the time was to ensure that we had a fair and equitable system, that we didn't make provisions, because they were women, whatever the case may be, but as a sergeant major getting us to that platform was eye-opening, right, because you had to get the males on board for women to be in their infantry, right? This is a male's army. I forgot what you said, right, but to that point, so breaking down mindsets and mentalities, and the more they serve next to hardcore women who put that pack on their back just like they did, right, or who show leadership, just like they did, the more that mindset began to chisel away and away and away to where when we ended that unit and even to this day, many of them are brothers and sisters. They are tight. I stay in touch with many of them, and they are tight, you know, forged through adversity, right? They're tight. So, you take that example, and you take it to leadership. So, any kind of mental mindsets that's entrenched into what you just know normal to be and [inaudible] like this that normalizes women in certain roles, you begin to chip at the mindsets. So, if you asked me off the cuff, what's the best thing to do, first thing is get to a mindset. Policy after policy after policy is superficial. It's going to wither away. It's like sand, it's going to blow away, but if I continue to chip at the mindset or the mentalities, as we continue to push forward, so that the women who come after us are not accommodated for, right, but actually included in and have -- and included at the seat at the table, their voice is heard equally, not just let her, okay, we have a woman there now, you know, whatever the case may be. And I don't think it's always malicious. So, let me back up a little bit. I want to make sure that's clear. It's not always malicious, but it is what happens, right? But if we constantly chip at the mindset and get it in that there's an equal part that they can play and there's value in that diversity, and I think that's the biggest thing going forward. Too many policies, and everyone's tired of another policy that an IG comes in and inspect, and, you know, and we have to pass it. I know they're important to some degree, but I think the effort and a lot of our focus needs to be focused on what's the mindset and really chip in at the culture of the military or just society period. We still have a lot of ways to go for equality and just society. So, very, again, this project serves as that, right? So, whoever's listening, we can push it out as far as we can, these stories are not heard. They're not heard. They have no -- many don't really realize some of the trials and tribulations that it takes for a woman to even remain in uniform, right, even to stay as long as I stayed. Many people [inaudible] out for stories that they don't get to tell leaders, and they don't understand or know, because they don't hear the stories. So, for me, staying as long as I stayed, that was one of the reasons I stayed, and I think I shared that before is that I recognized that everybody's voice is not heard. So, if my butt can go into a room and be a voice of some sort or at least be there, I thought that was important to stay the course, you know, because again, it's just not that many at the higher levels. There's very little sitting at the higher level, sitting at the seats that make decisions. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you. I appreciate you talking about, like, I think you just did a lot to kind of hammer at the myth that women can't do it or that people are accommodating women, because I think a lot of people don't realize that women weren't accommodated to get into those roles. So, thank you for that. I know that when I went into Fort Jackson, into that coed basic training, we were not accommodated, and people make -- there are a lot of people making assumptions still, that women going into those were accommodated. So, for all the listeners out there, thank you, Robin. >> Robin Fortner: And we don't want to be accommodated. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: And we don't want to be accommodated. >> Robin Fortner: That was [inaudible] don't drop a standard. We don't want the standards dropped-- >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Because when women can, we do, and study after study has proven, and we see it in the Olympics all the time and in athletes and in sports, women can do that work. So, on to the next. Suzanne, as Monica mentioned, many women who served in the military don't identify as veterans, simply because they served in a support role. Why is it important for their story to be told and preserved as well? >> Suzanne Brick: Today's society -- well, and I shouldn't start with today's society, because that's not fair. Historically, women in support roles going back to the Revolutionary War, we did whatever we could to contribute. We did what our service, what our country asked us to do to make a difference to be part of something greater. And the women that have come after me, the women that came before me that blazed trails, the women that came after me that have broken ceilings. I didn't blaze a trail. I didn't break a ceiling. I served. I served my country. I did what the Marine Corps needed me to do in the role that they needed me to perform it at, and most of my career, like I said, was at a headquarters level at senior leader level. And when people asked me, so what did you do in the Marine Corps, and well, I was an admin chief, and well, where did you serve, where you deployed, I served in different roles, especially at the Pentagon, because, similar to Sheila, I had a clearance that was needed. And so, that's what the Marine Corps needed me to do, and many times, I was the only service member in that office or I was the only Marine. In one particular assignment, there was a representative from each of the services, and I was the Marine Corps representative. I was brand-new in the Marine Corps, not even a year, actually not even six months, and there I was, representing the entire Marine Corps. So, when people came into the office, I was the only Marine they saw. So, while I may not have broken a glass ceiling or blazed the trail with all of the great work that was being done with the task forces that Robin had mentioned and those that had taken place before, the men at the table may not have ever been around any of these women that have participated in these exceptional roles. But maybe they've remembered me as the only woman Marine that they had seen and how I carried myself and the job that I did. Maybe that was their only point of reference, and so I didn't see myself as being a veteran that people understood, just because I didn't go to combat. I wasn't in any spectacular role, but to me, my job was spectacular, and I'm proud of the positions that I held, the assignments that I had. They were very unique, that most Marines, most service members don't get the opportunity to do, and I treasure that, and it did take me a long time to say, you know what, I am a veteran. You know, you go to events, and they ask for everybody in the room who's served in the military to stand up. Those were the only times I stood up, because any other time, everybody automatically looked at men, and this campaign really helped me to bring out my veteran status. My veterans status, I am a veteran, and no matter what my job was, how big or small it may have been to someone or to anyone else, it was mine, and I'm proud of it. And I know that, you know, I changed somebody's opinion of the Marine Corps just by who I was, as I know Sheila did anybody that encountered her. They changed their opinion of the Army and same with you Liz. Even in your time, whether it was while you were in uniform. After you left the service, you have changed someone's mind about women as veterans. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. So, let's all -- I hope people stop, because sometimes we get caught up in that did you deploy idea, and that leaves out millions of people who've served, when we focus on the deployment instead of the service, so thank you. Robin, you recently transitioned out of the military and started your own consulting business. Can you speak to how you continue to link back to your woman veteran legacy through your work now? >> Robin Fortner: Yeah, so just [inaudible] I started a leadership consulting, but underneath that is a lot of speaking at the same time. So, I do a lot of focus now on veteran events, if you will, not just women, but veteran events. The things I'm doing for women is the ones I talked about, as far as the Women Marines Association, we're getting ready to go down there and lift up that time capsule. But a lot of focus has been, because I tapped back into my network. Being recently retired, I was able to tap back into the network, and I knew who I was. So, I'm leveraging that contact or those contacts to keep pushing the message, changing the narrative, right? So, that's one of the things that I speak about is changing a narrative and a mindset of what a veteran is supposed to look like, because, you know, I think society has deemed what that looks like, you know? I don't know, you know, and I think it depends on where you come from. Does it -- do I have to wear a red hat with buttons all over it? Do I have to do that for you to know that I'm a veteran? Do I have to have a lot of tattoos? Do I have to, you know? So, just things like that, everyone doesn't -- don't always know that we have served, and I think that's true for some men. You know, just listening to that piece of it, whether it's combat or not combat, there's still a big stigma about whether you deployed and how proud you are of your service, if you deployed or not. So, that's changing the narrative of how important everybody's piece of the pie is, everybody's piece of the pie, no matter which way -- if you served. I mean, we are a small portion of the military, no matter what service you're from, and yet the military has been going for a long time. Who you think pushed those papers all those years? It wasn't always women, right? We wasn't always free in the fight. So, men do the same exact jobs, and that's something not to be ashamed of, is changing that narrative and standing tall, so appreciating that, you know, because it takes some people a little bit time to get out there. So, I just got a call this morning. That's what I love to do, go out and say, being proud of your service, whether it's two years or 20 years, whether it's 20 years or 40 years. Everybody, 1% of America choose to serve, 1%. We are all a small elite and should be proud of that. So, that's huge for my business, to actually push that narrative, but more from the speaker of me, which is what I just love to do, more from the speaker side, and then we also do women empowerment. So, that kind of ties in veteran women, and it just ties in. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Wonderful, and, of course, we need, I think, to help, you know, when it comes to women veteran empowerment in businesses, that fewer women of color and black women in particular having support and getting access to contracts and getting support for their businesses, so-- >> Robin Fortner: Liz, you want a whole nother panel [inaudible] on that subject. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Whatever we can do to support you through women veterans, you know? >> Robin Fortner: Yeah, that's a whole nother panel [inaudible]. Done. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: As far as the tattoos, some of us got that for you, so. >> Robin Fortner: I got you. I will leverage, but this has been great. I kind of mentioned before, those who know me know I wear a mask. I talk about this mask sometimes, because I actually got the mask for my family, but on one side of the mask is the Marine Corps emblem, on the other side of the mask is a sergeant major rank. And yeah, this -- what does a veteran look like? I believe we started this whole service, like who's a veteran in here, right? And everyone's not going to look the same, but when I put that mask on, I tell you, man, it's like a superpower. You become visible automatic, and it's not always for the right reason. It's more like, so who served, who you know. It's [inaudible] me. It's so whose mask is that, you know? So, but it's a conversation starter, and I love it for that, because then I start talking and talk about chiseling off the [inaudible], chiseling down the bricks, right? Some people -- you -- we are creatures of our own society, and we are shaped by society. If all I see on TV is what I think a veteran is supposed to look like, if every one movie shows the hero, right, if every last one of them show that, and the only female hero is out there not necessarily in a uniform, you know, they could be CIA or something like that, you know, it shapes minds. But when it's like it's that African American six foot woman get on a plane with this mask on, we're going to start a conversation, and I'm going to let you know who I am and how long I served, but my joy, too, was their eyes, like wow, you know, because maybe they only served four or whatever the case may be. But I'm like, hey, Sir, thank you for your service, because every second counts. If you take a stance, to me, raise your hand and say, I will defend this country, you deserve respect, no matter who you are, you know? So, and that's just important. So, that's the message, too, I think is not just from the gender side. It's I'm not invisible, and we got to let people understand a veteran looks differently, depending on who the person is, yeah. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you. >> Robin Fortner: Yeah. >> Suzanne Brick: So true. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Sheila, you were previously married to another military intelligence soldier and had two children. Did you notice a difference in how you were treated once you were both veterans? >> Robin Fortner: Good question. >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: That's a great question. Veterans Day, for our family, people always thanked my husband for his service. I know you all will be surprised. I have really strong daughters, internal strength. Even, I remember being the [inaudible] five and seven years old, they would pipe up and go, excuse me, what about my mother, she served too, and I'm just like, proud mama moment, right? Proud mama, but the look on their face, first of all, shame, and then they're like, women are in the military? Yes, Sir, we've been around for a while. Yep, I think I completely forgot your question. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: How you were treated as you were both veterans? >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: So, that story, I love that story about my daughters, and I've shared that a few times recently, because it just shows like in the -- from the mouths of babes, like they get it, right? And they wanted to make sure, like that that person didn't forget, we have more than one veteran in our household, but driving the car and, you know, if you have anything that might indicate that you're affiliated with military, people always asked me about my husband's service. That always pained a little bit, and even -- and moving into the support role as a senior spouse, I mean, I don't know if I willingly took that role. I just moved right to it, because I still wanted to care for my Army family, and his soldiers were mine. They were, I mean, I'm still close to so many of them, but they, even they didn't see me as a veteran. They just saw me as Mama Clark, you know, I'm a mama, but I think people that see this that know me are probably going to be shocked and go, she's a veteran, even today. And thank god for this campaign. Again, it's helped me reconnect and go, I am a veteran, and I'm proud I've served. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: You know, I always -- one of the things that I always say is people assume men are veterans, and they assume women are not, and that's the default. I just, I always tell people, just like, I'm not asking you to change that vision of the man you have in your head, just scooch him over and make room for the woman. That's all I want you to do, just scooch him over a little bit and put the woman up there with him, right? So, thank you all again. At this point, we're going to have to open the floor to a few questions from the in-person audience. If you have a question, please come forward to the podium. Should anyone watching online have a question, please enter it into the comments section. So, we have somebody from the audience, Mr. James Albino. >> James Albino: Thank you, all. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you. >> James Albino: My name is James Albino. I am the executive director of the Center for Minority Veterans at the Department of Veterans Affairs. I'm a Navy veteran, the son of a World War Two veteran and the grandson, I recently learned, of two World War One veterans. I have a simple question. There was a report recently, I believe it was an Air Force Report, that commented that women service members experienced disciplinary action at a disproportionate rate versus their male counterparts. Perhaps related to that, they also experience barriers in career opportunities that limit their opportunity to grow in the career fields that they need to grow, perhaps because of these disciplinary activities. Have you -- did you experience that? How -- what was that like? How do you overcome it? How do you get past it? Thank you. >> Suzanne Brick: I -- thank you for the question, James, and thank you for being here. That was something that I had not encountered. So, I don't have a point of reference from my own experience. There have been friends that I served with that had encountered that, but from my own experience, I had not. I had not, and I was very fortunate and very thankful. >> Robin Fortner: Yeah, first of all, again, thank you for the question. I would like to see the whole report. I know you don't have it on you. Don't get me wrong. I'm just thinking to myself, like what context is that in, because I think it's broad, just a little bit, but I can see truth in it, absolutely. I have not experienced the disciplinary piece on my own. Don't get me wrong, but I do think I go back again to understanding, right? So, we talked a lot about MST here, and if there's not a good understanding, these ladies who go through MST can also be victimized at the same time or, you know, there may be more more push to one part of their actions that could be disciplinary and lose focus on the true issue, which is the MST. So, there's things that a lot of women are going through now and have gone through where leadership -- there's not a lot of understanding. I go back again, there's not a lot of women in leadership roles that make decisions and things like that. There's been several times that I've -- a leadership role has been called to bounce something off or to understand something or to talk to another female or whatever the case may be, because we're not speaking the same language all the time, right? And it's just imperative that we understand our people, if we're going to lead them. So, from the disciplinary side, I can see that happened for many different minorities and not just women, right, where they feel that way, because I go back to the accommodating piece again and not feeling inclusive. Well, you know, it's a good old boy network. That's the mantra out there, right? If I don't fit in a good old boy network, but men also don't fit in every good old boy network, right? So, the ones who's making those decisions is -- could be perceived to be in the good old boy network. You know, out of sight, out of mind, so I do think that there's a lot of truth to that. I could say I definitely watched it, as a command sergeant major, and one thing I would try to always be -- any commanding officer, we're firm, we're fair, we're consistent, you know? What are we pushing out so that we can be firm, fair, and consistent and get the whole story and not just go off of any type of emotion. The second half is barriers. That's been reported for years, which is one of the reasons why they kept knocking on the door for the combat roles. For -- I can't speak for every service, but if you look at the Marine Corps, a lot of the leadership roles are infantry-fed. They -- many of them come from the infantry side. So, getting women into that circle, knowing that god has a crystal ball, we don't know what's going to happen in the future, per se, but it opens the door for opportunities, and if we just break the barrier down. We [inaudible] have to flood the doors with any one type of anything, but giving them the opportunity to resources and making sure that they have an equal footing, if you will, if they want to choose to take that path was important. So yes, that's definitely true. There are definitely barriers. Suzanne talked about glass ceilings. There's definitely barriers there. If you are not walking a path that is, you know, like not necessarily in black and white, but maybe under the table the rules to walk, then it's highly unlikely you're going to be able to go far in that chosen path. Not impossible, right? There's many people, who, just like anything else in our history, somebody has to be the first, right? It doesn't happen -- this never happens until it does, right? So, at some point, it has to get to that point, and I think that's what we are. What I took away from this is also we're all living history. I go back to 1943 officially being accepted into the military. So, I keep using that date, although we served a long time ago, we also got kicked out after -- I can't say kicked out, but we got released after World War One, after World War Two, those kind of thing. And then [inaudible] we officially, so that's not that long ago. We still have living histories walking around, right? We talked about the 6888 still walking around, Montford Point Marines still walking around. So, if we still have living people who lived through those things who were breaking down those glass ceilings, that means we are still part of history, and what we do here and the decision we make and the advocacy that we do hear matters, because we're still writing this chapter. We haven't even been a century yet, in comparison to the world, right? So, I say that to say that, although we've taken all exclusions down for just about every service, what we do and how we implement it, that's the most important part right now, which is why I talk about mindset. And if we get the right mindset in there, then it's easier for them to scooch the men out the side and understand we all look different, short, tall, skinny, big, whatever the case may be. Can they bring us to the table, keeping warfighting at the forefront? I noticed a lot of things, because I told y'all I was speaker. So, I'm ready to take the podium, but I'm going to pass it on, but to that question, I would love to continue a conversation afterwards, but that is an absolute question. There's truth to that. Those watching, please understand this truth. No one's complaining. We just want you to be aware, and when you're at this table that can make a decision, do the right thing. Understand inclusivity versus just this is just the way we've always done business. Thank you. >> [In Unison] Thank you. >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: I hadn't really dealt with the disciplinary action side of the house while I was in the Army, meaning I was a pretty good soldier and didn't get in a lot of trouble, but I will say that in my rape, when I was a young soldier, did go to my command. I was discouraged, I was pressured, wasn't threatened, but I wanted to be, I wanted to ensure I was still part of the group. I wanted to show that I can still -- I'm part of the Army, I belong here, and I, you know, at that time, I chose not to move forward with more formal -- a more formal complaint or investigation, because, for me, at that time, and in our history, it was my way of surviving, meaning, you know, remember I was only -- I never worked with women. So, being the token female, it was my way of coping and be able to show them like, I'm not going to give you a reason to put me out. So, I did squash that, but I will say that, you know, fast forward a couple of decades as a senior spouse and federal employee, I was attacked by an Airman that worked for me, and my husband and children had just moved on to the next assignment. I was to follow them, and that I did report, and I was polygraphed, interrogated. I finally let it go, so I could join my family, and given the choice now, you know, reporting, not reporting, I like to say that it's, you know, I, my hope is that it gets better for all those that come behind us, and we should never suffer in silence. And I'm an optimistic person. I've seen a lot of changes in the military. I had, I mean, I was a single pregnant soldier in the early 90s, and I had to -- I had a choice if I wanted to stay in the Army. I could abort my child, I could leave the Army, or I can give my child up to my parents or friends for adoption, because I wanted to continue to serve. Thank god, we don't have that today. I think the Army's made a lot of changes over the years for the positive, and when it comes to sexual assault, I have faith that we are on that same path. It's going to get better, and there won't be that stigma, that sometimes comes along with being that quote, victim, that survivor. You're welcome. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: All right, next question. Thank you. >> Lacrisha Parker: Thank you, ladies, for just sharing your story and coming out and letting everyone know. My name is Lacrisha Parker. I am a 28-year Army veteran and spouse. I am the community engagement manager for the Military Women's Memorial. So, my question to you, ladies, are we putting more work and creating more opportunities and services specific to women, which are very critical and crucial, that we are unknowingly always separating ourselves from the larger population that we are -- have been fighting to be equal? Two, and because we have different needs. So, are we doing too much or not enough? >> Robin Fortner: I'll take it, Ma'am. I think that's a great question, and I think it's starting to come up more and more. Again, just recently being retired, I will tell you, we are talking several different generational perspectives. Many of the young ladies, and I can't speak for all, so when I say many, I'm just generalizing, but there's a deep consensus still of the equality piece. They're yearning for equality, just like you're saying, right? They want to be equal in every aspect that even the lord hasn't made us equal, and so we have to be careful of that, and some of them are shying away from the doing too much, right, from really truly understanding or not understanding from a preservation standpoint. They just don't want to be a part of it, because it takes them away from their male counterparts. Everybody's integrated now, right? So again, different perspectives that I think we need to just be cognizant of. My personal opinion, I don't think we can ever do too much. I -- just it's not about what we do, it's how we do it and the way we go about doing it, right? I used to sit in a lot of different women maybe speeches and events and things like that, and I always said, I was like, hey ladies, we know this stuff. What I would love to see is men in the audience, right? So, when we tell these stories, we're not just talking to ourselves, because we know it a little bit better. What I would love to see is to get the men sitting right next to us. So, it's not about having too many events at this point. It's how do we do it and how, because right now, if we don't include them just as much as we want them to include us, they're going to feel like, you know, let's practice what we preach. Again, not malicious, we just, again, we have to be cognizant of it, but when we do events, you know, I'm always grabbing, I can't say always, but you try to think of what males can I invite or what males can I bring, what -- I mean, whether it's your husband or whatever the case may be, because that's how we chisel the mindset. Otherwise, this is becoming an elite group, and at the same time, they should still feel the sisterhood. How many times we [inaudible] sat in, and I felt brotherhood all day long way, right? I don't hunt, but, you know, right on it. We're talking about hunting, teach me something, you know, incorporate yourself into what they're talking about at the same time. So, a long way to just say, in my personal opinion, no, I don't think we're doing too much. I do think we need to be cognizant of the perspectives that's out there of the people that will benefit from this and always from the senior ones who they want to preserve that. And how do we intertwine both or intersect both agendas? I want to preserve that, but I also need to understand that if I preserve this too strongly, that I'm not growing. If I stay here too long or too strongly, I'm not growing. So, let me intertwine a lot of these younger perspectives, because the younger generations, they are a lot more about equality than we were, because they live in it just differently than we are. Just differently. >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: I agree with you on that as well, Robin. I'd like to see more men a part of that conversation as well. I actually spoke to a friend of mine, who's a retired Navy commander about this very topic, and, you know, and sometimes I think it might be a bit of a slippery slope. I mean, obviously, I want more opportunities for women, women, you know, soldiers and veterans, I mean, that's what I had, but at what cost to them? I want them to be a part of that conversation. I want to be a part of, you know, I want them to have a say in that. I don't want that pendulum to go too far, where we got to move it back. But, you know, like he had told me, I guess, yeah, I was there when they were talking about putting women on subs, and, you know, I was really concerned about like, physically, I'm not that big, strong guy to close that hatch, and like I get it. I get it, but you know what I'm really proud of is, he said, you know what, I was wrong, women do serve on subs now, for instance, right? And they do it well, and my hope, here is that optimism in me again, my hope is one day we don't have to talk about that equality, that that is just an inherent right for all of us. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Perfect, thank you. >> Robin Fortner: Okay, thank you for that question. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: Thank you. So, next question. >> Amy: Ladies, I just want to thank you for your vulnerability, for your courage, and your honesty, and addressing all of us today, and I'm wondering for you, having experienced the Veterans History Project and being a part of this, I Am Not Invisible project, what will be the lasting impact on you and what you hope that the viewers will take away from this experience haven't been able to hear your stories today? >> Suzanne Brick: I'll let Sheila start. >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: Okay. First of all, Amy, thank you for your service. >> Suzanne Brick: Yes, thank you. >> Sheila Kensinger-Clark: And your continued service. The one thing I'd like to leave about this project and has most affected me, I mean, I don't know how many times I've said, I'm a veteran, I'm a veteran. I think I keep trying to convince myself that, you know, get used to hearing that, but it has reconnected me to that young lady that put the uniform on. But it also connected me to my heritage. Like I mentioned, my mother recently passed, and she was -- her last day on this earth, she was very proud that at the time I had my photo taken about three years ago, Jean was working on the Native American collection. And I chose to be a part of that collection, honoring my mother, who was an elder in our tribe, but to also honor my tribe, and this campaign, I never would have thought it would have reconnected me to my Native American heritage, but this campaign was something my mother spoke about her very last day on this earth. And she reminded me, be proud of who you are, be proud of where you come from. I feel just very blessed. I think without this campaign, I would have been one of those that said, yes, I'm part Native American, but tying my photo to my tribe tied me back to people, that never really accepted me, because, you know, red hair, half-breed, right? So, I'm grateful for the campaign, not only being able to honor my mother, her heritage, my heritage. Without it, I just don't think that would have ever occurred in my lifetime. Thank you. >> Robin Fortner: Again, thank you for the question as well. Thank you for the Women Marines Memorial as well, too, and the job that y'all do over there. Back to the campaign, I can't stress enough the vision, right? I think this is something I think I've said to myself several times, you know, throughout my career. Again, just being freshly retired, I just took this picture less than a year ago, right? So, freshly retired, I was actually at a place for a different reason. I'm walking down the hallway, and the photographer said, come with me, right, and so just like a Marine, okay, where are we going, but I went, and I had no idea the impact of this campaign. I think a lot of people in uniform don't realize this is going on. So, I didn't realize this was happening to the magnitude that it's happening, but it gave a voice to what you've already said. I was like, perfect, how perfect is that? That is so true. I know this is something a lot of veterans have said before, like and want to say out loud and didn't know that they had the support to say it or not just say it, but to scream it. I'm not invisible, almost like I'm talking. You know, it's almost like that, it's like a movement, more so than a campaign, it's like, see me, look up and see me. So, for me, it was great, because it came at a time where I was transitioning out of uniform and into the civilian life, and I can -- it's like the voice is not hidden behind a uniform. It's like I'm very proud to say it out loud. I stopped my -- whether it's the business or the social media, or every time I speak, it is, I'm a 30-year Marine Corps veteran, loud and proud, upfront, if you ask me to introduce myself. So, those, I think, helped me to propel in this next chapter, you know, a lot of things that was hidden from hiding behind a uniform at times that you felt throughout your career, but you don't always have that support system to yell it. So, I really appreciate what the collaboration has been between, again, Liz, yourself, the Center of Women Veterans, you know, the VA, the Women Memorial, I mean, there's a lot of people who jumped on and said, I've seen that, I know that, and here this is three years ago, and this is 3.0. I can't wait to 5.0, 10.0. What more can we do, right? It's like, this is just getting started here, but the more we bring awareness to that, and, again, tell our story to the fact of hey, we all look different, right, we all -- and every -- all the pictures, I love to see the lady that they're doing all kinds of things in those pictures, right? And I love the innovative thought for that, but it's showing people we're veterans, too, you know, and to say it loud and proud, and I have not stopped saying it, I think, again, no matter through trials, tribulations, trauma, I am a huge advocate that women come with all of that. And we also come with resilience, and I think that's one thing that I don't want to lose in this chapter is my resiliency. So, for me, it's been that catapult to be in something that I didn't always say this out loud. I said it internally in uniform, when I walked into a room. I knew it internally. I knew when I walked in, I got to own that room internally. I know if I sat at that table, I better have something credible to say internally, so that I'm not invisible, but I didn't say it always out loud. I don't know if my male counterparts, my closest friends even understand that we go through this sometimes, and I have really good close male leaders right now. So, to see this, it's like, yeah, that's some truth right there, man. A lot of people are going through that, no matter how strong they are, always say, check on your strong friends, right? But this is that catapult for me, because I'm freshly transitioning, and I'm -- trust me, Liz, it is everywhere that I can be. So, thank you so much. >> Suzanne Brick: Thank you. Thank you, I mean, thank you for all that you're doing and continue to do and all that you have done and accomplished, and you're not invisible, and thank you for making sure that women that have served throughout this nation's history never become invisible through the work that you do. So, thank you. If I was to say anything about this campaign and to somebody who didn't know anything about me, it would be, where do I begin? What do you want to know about me? You know, Robin touched on something, as did Sheila, is that we work with so many men constantly, and a lot of times, we are the only women in the room. And those men have accepted us, and they don't see us as a woman. They see us just as one of them, meaning a collective group, not seeing us as a man, but just seeing us as part of the same group. We're all green, right? We're all green, but I think in that seeing us as green and seeing us as one, we are not seen as women, and we are dynamic soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Coast Guardsmen, Seamen, you know, we are dynamic, because we are women, and the community that sees us and learns at the last bit that we also served in the military, they now look at us differently, wow, you are so much stronger than I ever knew. There is so much more to you than I ever knew, because you've only known me since I've left the service, and so I appreciate that this campaign lets us be 100% dynamic and lets us shine because of it, and it reminds us to shine as mothers. I'm not a mother myself, except for, you know, I do have a four-legged child, but so many times we fall back into roles, different roles that we stand in, and we forget the number one role that we were born into, and this is the number one role that we were born into is to be these strong, dynamic women, and may we never forget it. That's what I always think of from now on, and I hope that answered the question. But that's what it-- >> Amy: Beautiful. Thank you so much. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: I can't thank each of you enough for being here today and sharing your stories and for your, as Amy said, vulnerability and your truth and for your service. Thank you for your service, each of you. >> Robin Fortner: Thank you. Yes, Liz. >> Elizabeth Estabrooks: So, over one and also, I, again, want to mention the strength and resiliency that you talked about and that you showed today and that you developed before your service, during your service, and since your service. Over 3 million veterans have served since 2001, and we have to acknowledge that many of these people will be coming home, and that will be our newest group of incoming veterans. And I hope that this International Women's Day, each of you watching thinks about the woman veteran in your life, and whether it's the grandmother that you didn't know served or forgot served or the auntie or the mother. Ask them to share their story with the Library of Congress Veterans History Project, so that we can all learn from their memories and continue to build better futures for our next generation. The VA Center for Women Veterans and our amazing volunteers did just that. I'd like to ask Monica and Lourdes to join me up front for us to contribute collective stories of service from women veterans to this ever-growing collection. >> Lourdes Tiglao: Have to be safe. Thank you. So, we may never be able to absolutely repay the contributions that all of our veterans have done for us all throughout the years ever since the Revolutionary War, however, through this project, we hope that we can genuinely honor and acknowledge their service and contributions. Today, we're going to be contributing these living touchstones to the Library of Congress as part of the Veterans History Project. [ Applause ] >> Monica Mohindra: It is my humble honor to accept these living testimonies to all the courage and bravery that you displayed today and that all the people participating in this project display by sharing their experience. I humbly accept these on behalf of the Library of Congress and of the American people and the users, those who will take advantage of these collections today and for future generations to come. We are so honored. Thank you for this contribution and for all the others that you'll be helping us bring in. Thank you. [ Applause ]