>> Lanisa Kitchiner: Freedom,
hard fought and hard won.
It didn't happen in 1863
when Abraham Lincoln signed
the Emancipation Proclamation.
At least not for all
of the three million plus
enslaved African-American men
and women in the United States.
For many, freedom came two
years later on June 19, 1865.
Juneteenth.
Jubilee Day, Emancipation
Day, Black Independence Day,
the date in American history
when enslaved African-Americans
in Galveston, Texas
were made aware
that they were a free people.
A people no longer in bondage
but instead with the power
to act, speak, think for
themselves without hindrance,
restraint, or fear of death.
Today's program a film
screening followed
by a discussion entitled
Prince Among Slaves.
The amazing true story of
Abdul Rahman Ibrahima Sori,
an African prince enslaved
in the American South.
Is offered in commemoration of
the historic day, Juneteenth,
when all enslaved
African-Americans were freed.
Today's program would not be
possible without the support
of our colleagues in the field.
We owe special thanks to
education specialists,
pure [inaudible], to the
panelists and to Daniel Tutt
and the entire Unity
Productions Foundation team.
The program includes
a remarkable lineup
of a filmmaker, a formal
scholar in the field,
an emerging scholar
and a community member.
We have with us today Michael
Gomez, Silver Professor
of History and Middle
Eastern and Islamic studies
at New York University.
Zaheer Ali, Executive Director
of the Hutchins Institute
for Social Justice at
Lawrenceville School.
Fatimah Fanusie, lecturer
in Islamic studies
at Johns Hopkins University.
And Alex Kronemer,
Executive Producer of the film
and the focus of
our topic today.
Prince Among Slaves.
Today's program promises to
spark thought and dialogue
about the enduring legacy
of Americas complex past.
I hope it also encourages you
to visit our vast repository
of research materials, many of
which are available at loc.gov.
I'm Dr. Lanisa Kitchiner,
Chief of the African
and Middle Eastern Division
of the Library of Congress.
It is a pleasure to
have you with us today.
Please let's begin.
>> Daniel Tutt: Good
afternoon and happy Friday.
Happy Juneteenth weekend.
Wonderful to invite
our panelists to turn
on their cameras and to join us.
And I want to reintroduce
our panelists for you here.
We have an extremely
exciting group of scholars,
community leaders, and a
filmmaker, in fact the filmmaker
who made the film you just saw.
Alex Kronemer.
I'll start with Alex.
He is the Executive Director of
Unity Productions Foundation,
the company that made
Prince Among Slaves.
Alex is an Emmy nominated
filmmaker.
His most recent PBS film is
called The Sultan and The Saint.
He also has directed a
recent animated film called
Lamya's Poem.
Which is inspired by
the poetry of Rumi
and the Syrian refugee crisis.
Alex also has a forthcoming
program called The Great Muslim
American Road Trip
coming to PBS in July.
Second panelist is Zaheer Ali.
Zaheer Ali is executive director
of the Hutchins Institute
for Social Justice at
the Lawrenceville School.
Zaheer is also an
oral historian.
Third panelist is
Fatimah Fanusie.
Fatimah is the Program Director
of the Justice Leaders
Fellowship at the Institute
for Islamic, Christian and
Jewish Studies in Baltimore.
Welcome Fatimah.
Michael Gomez is also with us.
Who is a professor, the
Silver Professor of History
and Middle Eastern Islamic
Studies at New York University.
And who is one of the foremost
historians and scholars
of transatlantic slave trade,
as well as the role of Islam
in the slave experience.
And I would like
to kick us off by,
greetings everyone,
good afternoon.
I'd like to kick us off
if I could with Dr. Gomez.
Dr. Gomez, we just saw
this incredible story
of Abdul Rahman.
Can you give us a little
context of Abdul Rahman himself
in the kind of wider
spiritual, I think, you know,
the film suggests and a lot
of the scholars that are
in the film suggests that
in fact there was a vibrant
spiritual and religiosity
of the enslaved Africans.
Can you fit Abdul Rahman within
that and speak a little bit more
about this broader context
of spirituality in the lives
of enslaved Africans
in this country?
What was that like?
And what do we know about it
from historical point of view?
Can you open us with
that please.
>> Michael Gomez:
Thank you Daniel
for the question,
can you hear me okay?
Greetings to everyone.
I think it's important
to begin the conversation
with some consideration of the
context and then we can move
from context to the Rahman.
And I'd like to begin by noting
what everyone here understands,
that is to say we're
talking about, about 12
and 1/2 million people
being transported
through the transatlantic
slave trade.
Between 1501 and 1886,
about 10.7 million
survived the middle passage.
And what's really interesting
about that is two things
for the purposes of
our conversation.
One, less than 4% of all
of these Africans came
to what becomes the
United States.
The vast majority of them go
elsewhere in particular Brazil,
that takes in nearly 50% of all
the Africans during this trade.
Secondly, the collective
profile for the Africans coming
into what becomes the
United States is very unique
and very different
from what you see
in other parts of the Americas.
For example, if we take a look
at Saint-Domingue
what becomes Haiti.
About 44% of the
Africans come from,
came from West Central Africa,
26% from the Bight of Benin
in what is now Nigeria.
Southwestern Nigeria.
The profile for what becomes
the African-American population
in North America is very
different, it's very unique,
nearly 25% of the
Africans who come
into what becomes the
U.S. come from Senegambia.
Twenty-three percent
from West Central Africa,
18% from Bight of Biafra.
And interestingly, when
compared with Saint-Domingue
where you have 26% from the
Bight of Benin, or Benin,
you have only 2% from
the Bight of Benin coming
into what becomes
the U.S. Primarily
into the Mississippi valley
and principally Louisiana
and Mississippi.
So the profile is
very very different.
Now why is that important?
That's important because
Senegambia was a region
in West Africa in which
Islam was on the rise.
Yeah. And so, the religion
was growing exponentially.
And actually at the same time
as the transatlantic
trade was unfolding.
So, if you take a look
for example at the figures
for enslaved persons brought
into the Carolina's and Georgia.
About 210,000 Africans were
brought in to these places.
About 41, 21% of them
came from Senegambia.
Let's state it differently.
Of the nearly 475,000
Africans who came into British,
North America during the slave
trade, beyond the question
of how many were Muslim, quote
unquote, is the fact nearly half
of them came from regions
that were influenced by Islam
through trade and
so forth and so on.
So, this is something
to keep in mind.
There are those scholars
who seek
to quantify how many Muslims
came into what becomes the U.S.,
I am one of those who resist,
but I'm certainly amenable
to the notion that
probably tens of thousands
of African Muslims came into
what becomes the U.S. Now,
with respect to Abdul Rahman and
I'm racing, Abdul Rahman comes
from a very interesting and
critical part of West Africa.
As a whole and to the
story of the unfolding
of Islam in West Africa.
In that he comes from Futa
Jallon, Futa Jallon was one
of the first Muslim theocracies
established in West Africa.
Yeah. And prior to the rise
of the Iotola Komani in Iran,
you have a very similar kind
of phenomenon taking
place in West Africa.
Across the expanse
of West Africa
from the late 17th century
into the 19th century.
Where you have a series
of theocracies established
from Senegambia all
the way to Lake Tshad.
And, so Futa Jallon was
certainly a part of that,
a very very important early
part of this development,
you have holy war taking
place in Futa Jallon,
this is in the massif of what
is now Guinea in the 1720s,
establishes a theocracy, what
was referred to as an Imamate.
You know. And so what
happens is that it's,
the name itself Futa
Jallon is a conjunction.
It represents a coming together
of both the Fulbe
and the Djalonke.
The Fulbe or the Fulani,
or the [foreign word],
they go by different names.
You know, and then the
Djalonke who are Manda speakers.
Very quickly, this falls apart.
Okay, this arrangement
between the, between the Fulbe
and the Djalonke falls
apart in the 1740s.
There's a lot of instability,
war and it is compounded
by a kind of anti-Muslim
response in the region.
And at least for
a lot of warfare
and this is precisely what
Abdul Rahman gets caught up in.
And so he is routed, he's
captured in West Africa,
he's routed and winds up in all
places in New Orleans in 1788.
Yeah, what's interesting
about it is that,
another fellow very important
person Muhammad Kaba.
Who's also born in Futa Jallon,
he's about six years
older than Abdul Rahman.
He's also captured and sold
into slavery in 1777, 1778,
basically the same time.
He winds up in Jamaica.
And these stories just
go on, and on, and on,
if I had time I could just go
through a litany of examples
of Muslims who come out
of this period in place.
And so, so the context in West
Africa explains what's happening
and how they wind up in
places like Mississippi,
and Jamaica, and Brazil.
>> Daniel Tutt: Incredible.
So, thanks for that
broad, broad context
and I want to turn to Zaheer.
And, you know, if you go
and you in Washington,
DC there's so many
African-American people have
names that are of
Islamic heritage,
even if they may not be
practicing the Islamic faith.
And Zaheer I want to
open up a conversation
about how people today,
specifically the black community
and the Muslim-backed
community, etcetera.
How are people relating
to this history?
When was it discovered
that this history
of the Islamic presence was,
when did it become known?
Can you walk us through
that, how people live
and how they relate to
this period, this history?
In some of your oral
history work.
>> Zaheer Ali: Sure,
sure, thank you.
So it's interesting because
the knowledge of people
like Abdul Rahman, Bilali and
his diary and Job Ben Solomon
and some of the other, some
prominent names that we've come
to know as examples of enslaved
Muslims in the United States.
Was the knowledge of like
specialist, and you know
like historical journals, but it
wasn't really popular knowledge.
And you had African-American
Muslim revivalists organizations
in communities like
the nation of Islam,
like the Moorish Science Temple,
and other communities
in the 20th century.
Who as part of their missionary
work to promote Islam,
called people to return back to
Islam, that this was a recovery,
this was a return to a heritage
that was lost or stolen.
And in that sense
the people led,
the popular memory led
the historical discovery.
Because, you know, in the 1930s
as someone like Fard Muhammad
and Elijah Muhammad
are spreading this idea
that Islam was the
religion of the ancestors.
At that same time you have oral
histories being recorded amongst
the WPA project, the Works
Project Administration,
writers project of people
of were traveling down south
and recording the memories of
enslaved, formally enslaved,
or people and their descendants.
Who talked about, you know,
my ancestor, or my mother,
or my father had beads in their
hand, or they prayed on a mat,
there was no detailed
explanation what it was.
And the people who recorded
these stories did not know
Islam, did not know about Islam
and did not make
that connection.
So either you had so much
of black history was shaped
by the tradition of the church.
Or so much of the history
of Islam was shaped
by an eraser of black people.
So that heritage was never
connected, but it was connected
by African-American Muslim
communities in the 20th century.
And so, in the 1960s as
Malcolm X, as a spokesperson
of the nation of Islam who
helped popularize this idea
that Islam was the
religion of our ancestors.
And popularized that with
Alex Haley who was working
on his autobiography, which
of course motivated Alex Haley
to write Roots.
It was, there were journalists
who began investigating
these claims
with the intention
of discounting them.
Right? And actually said, oh,
there actually might have
been some Muslims among the
enslaved people.
They might not have been the
Muslims like these Muslims,
but they were some Muslims.
And so, when we think about
how these stories function,
there was a historical function
and then there's a
cultural function,
there is a spiritual function
and there's the power of memory.
And, you know, I was really
moved by the closing of the film
where you see that, if nothing
else the names were passed on.
It's like maybe we couldn't
pass on the full tradition
as it would be recognized
in the classical sense.
But we're going to
leave this marker.
And that's exactly what happens,
so that generations later people
began picking up those markers
and building on it to
recreate, and recover,
and revive these traditions.
>> Daniel Tutt: Beautiful.
I want to return to
this, but I want to move
to Alex the filmmaker.
Alex, what made you
want to make this film?
Where did this come from?
What gave you the idea for it?
>> Alex Kronemer:
Thank you Daniel
and boy this has been an
interesting conversation so far.
Let me start by saying, so
as a filmmaker I'm interested
in the human condition.
And I don't know, 20 years ago,
some period of time ago
a book came out reporting
to be the first book
ever written
about Abraham Lincoln's
spiritual life,
or what was his spiritual
life all about.
And it just got me to
thinking about the stories
of spiritual lives
from this period
that we knew nothing about.
And the one that I gravitated
to thinking about the most was,
the enslaved Africans.
I mean after all, I mean, you
know, people under great duress,
under great stress, under great
pain losing their whole lives,
their families will
naturally turn to religion.
Would naturally seek some
kind of comfort or support
in the religious spirituality.
And so my first question in my
mind was, I don't know anything
about the enslaved African
spiritual life, what was it?
And, so I, not really
with the intention
of this becoming any kind
of film, I was just curious.
And began doing some research.
And discovered as some
of the panelists are
already discussing that,
quite a large number of
enslaved Africans were Muslim.
And that was a surprise to
me, I didn't really think
that being the case actually.
And so, my interest peaked,
I continued to do a little
more research and then I came
across this really incredible
book written by Terry Alford.
Whose name was already
been mentioned,
called Prince Among Slaves,
which became the
name of the film.
And was introduced to the
story of Abdul Rahman.
And I was just bowed over by it.
Not only because of
its particularities,
I mean it's like, when I
read this biography it read
like a novel, most
biographies don't.
But this is read like a novel.
So first of all, I was
just taken by the story.
I was taken by the insights
that this story offered
on to this period of history
that we don't often think
or know very much about.
I mean there's quite
a lot we know
about the Civil War period
right before, right after,
but not really very much about
this early American history.
And, you know, what the story
of enslavement was then.
So first of all I thought it
was interesting and important
to tell for that reason
but, again like I said
as a filmmaker I'm interested
in the human condition.
And I felt like this story
also had some universal themes.
Applicable to everybody.
You know, all of us at
some point undergo loss,
all of us sometimes great loss.
And what I was really taken by,
by his story was how this
person who lost everything.
I mean not just the average
things like his family,
and his freedom, but he also
lost a royal inheritance.
This was a person who was
going to be a king someday.
And his kingdom Futa Jallon,
at that time was larger
than United States of
America, as it was formulated.
Was richer than United States,
I mean this was a
significant place.
And he lost that too.
And yet he found a way to
persevere through 40 years
of enslavement, so much so
that when, as the story is told
that you saw in the film,
when he gets the opportunity he
can be acting very strategically
in an effort to try
to free his family.
And I thought that that was
a story that offered a lot
to a general audience as well.
An audience who might be
interested in history,
but an audience just
human beings.
Who struggle with this same
kind of questions and issues.
>> Daniel Tutt: That's
amazing and we'll come back
to the impact that
the film has made
on the community
in the present day.
But thanks for that
background Alex.
Fatimah I want invite
you to jump back
in on this conversation
of the Islamic faith
within the wider
African-American community.
Fatimah has completed her
PhD at Howard University
on late 1800s turn
of the century Islamic
revivalists movements and kind
of the introduction
of the Islamic faith amongst
African-American people.
And Fatimah, could you
build perhaps a bit
on the conversation we had
with Dr. Gomez and with Zaheer.
How do you make the
connection there?
>> Fatimah Fanusie: Yep.
>> Daniel Tutt: How is that
connection made for you
with this rich, what we
know now of the religious
and the spiritual
experience during slavery
and then how was it then picked
up in the reconstruction era,
and later, pre-Civil Rights?
>> Fatimah Fanusie: Right.
So yes thank you.
I think, I guess the best way
to get in and out pretty briefly
and Zaheer did mention
many of things
that I would have discussed.
But, I want to point
to two things.
One when we talk about,
and Professor Gomez
give a wonderful context
to understand this world that
Ibrahima was coming out of
and the other Muslims,
African Muslims
in America were coming out of.
I think it's really easy
if we look at two things.
One was the 19th century
Sapelo Island community.
And the reason I like to point
to that is because there's
so many untold stories of
course of African Muslims.
And then we have those
that we do know of.
And then as Professor Gomez
mentioned we have even more
outside of the United States
in Brazil and other countries
where the majority of
African captives were sold.
But, with Sapelo we
have the establishment
of a Muslim community
among African Muslims.
And then when you start talking
about teasing this out to look
at links, or to look
at connections
between 19th century
African-Americans
and spiritual practices
and what will develop
in the 20th century.
I like to just point to
the fact that the building
of the first African
Baptist church
that Muslim craftsman
were actually involved
in building this and this
is evidenced in the cut-out,
on the pews where you see
the one finger raised,
and on the headstones.
So we have the evidence that
Muslim Africans were there
and we know that we
have that community
with Bilali Muhammad was
actually an Islamic scholar
and others.
Who actually did establish
a Muslim community.
But, when we look at that
first African Baptist church,
it's being built nonetheless,
even though Muslim
craftsman's are a part of it,
it's being built to bring
together a community
for the purpose of
christian worship.
So you have right
there the bringing
of the community together
through the establishment
of this historic church.
And I think that
kind of represents
at the same time
you see a little bit
of a Muslim community, it
also represents the sunset
of the African Muslim
community in America.
So you certainly have the
descendants of African Muslims
who remember praying on the
bead as Zaheer mentioned.
But they didn't have Islam as a
religion as their forebears did.
So when we move into
the emancipation period,
by emancipation we can
certainly the blossoming
of Christianity among
African-Americans.
And then there's, and this is
one of the things that I start
to tackle on my research, but
that late 19th century cultural
and spiritual Melu
throughout America,
not just concentrated
among African-Americans,
but was one where you had
spiritualism, new thought
and other millenariansim
and other competing,
and intersecting
threats percolating
about in the society
at that time.
And I think that
it's looking here
at this late 19th century
spiritual millennial
that we can find more
of the connective thread
to connect early 20th century
Muslim, Islamic, Proto Islamic,
emergence among
African-Americans
to their African-American
culture.
And so one of the things that we
have of course most of you know
that early 20th century
religious movements included,
you know, this seeking.
And you had people like
Daddy Grace, Father Divine
and of course WD Fard Muhammad.
But there are two things that
are important to recognize.
That in this environment
Islamic knowledge wasn't there.
So, the Moorish Science Temple
uses a new thought bible
and they call this the Quran.
But this illustrates
again that the memory
of Quranic knowledge has
been pretty much erased among
African-Americans
who are searching
in their dissatisfaction with
doctoring their Christianity.
So you do have this
movement of African-Americans
who have the emergence and
establishment of the church.
And then you have this
movement of African-Americans
like late 19th and early
20th century really looking
for something else.
And so, yeah those are just the
two things that I like to point
out regarding the spiritual Melu
of, and that cultural and search
for religious identity
among African-Americans late
19th century.
>> Daniel Tutt: That's
brilliant Fatimah, thank you.
I want to pivot in a
moment to Juneteenth,
but I want to invite Dr.
Gomez to say anything else
that may be percolating in
your mind on this broader theme
of the kind of, how we gauge
or how we measure the legacy
of Islamic cultural
and spiritual practice.
And what survived?
What survived, I'm
reminded of course
of that incredible presentation
that your fellow historian
Sylviane Diouf does with a call
to prayer and slave
chants for example.
But, Dr. Gomez you've written
quite a lot about this,
I wonder if you have any
thoughts for us right now?
>> Michael Gomez: Well sure.
I like what Fatimah is saying
there and I think that so,
I think what I would offer as an
observation is, it is striking
to me that the two countries
in which Islam reemerges
in the 20th century are
precisely the countries
into which most of the
Muslims were brought.
United States and Brazil.
And, you know, we have to ask
the question, well why is that?
Once again, Muslims was strong
all across the Americas.
As a matter of fact
if you look some
of the documents I was
working on some time ago,
there are references to amulets
in the Haitian Revolution
in Saint-Domingue, there
were Muslims there.
But they were quite
a small group.
But in Brazil, in particular
in Bahia, in Salvador, you,
these are Muslims coming in
from what is now Nigeria,
not Senegambia.
And coming out of a
different kind of context.
But, it's still related to the
whole business of theocracies
and so forth and so on.
And in that case there
was this whole business
with what was happening
what is now Northern Nigeria
and the establishment of
the Sokoto Caliph fade
and the movement of the Slam
from the house of Fulani South,
to the Yoruba's and so forth and
a lot of people are caught up in
that conflict and
wind up in Brazil.
And it's precisely
in those places,
now Islam will be
severely repressed
after the 1835 Mali
Revolt in Salvador.
But it continues on,
so this brings us back
to the question that
Fatimah raises.
And this is where the research
will be very interesting
and I totally agree with her.
Because it's in this seeking,
Moorish Science Temple,
the nation of Islam, so
forth, there's a sense
that there's something there,
there's something
in the background.
You know? That there's
a heritage
that we really don't understand.
So they don't have
the exact knowledge
or the precise knowledge for it.
But they have a sense of it.
And I argue that it's precisely
those mechanisms Moorish Science
Temple, nation of Islam, and so
forth, that those are mechanisms
that move, that allow
for a kind of recovery
of orthodoxy if you will.
And they're working with
what they can work with.
And, so that's important.
So, but I think that they are
drawing upon this sense that,
and as Zaheer was saying, you
have all of these stories.
I have a colleague who has,
who's now writing
on the Malagasy.
And, you know, there are
these connections with some
of the Malagasy in East Africa
and so forth, in the northeast,
in New York, and
so forth and so on.
Where people have stories,
families have stories
about these Muslims.
Way back when.
And so, yeah.
>> Daniel Tutt: There's so much
to be said about this topic,
I want to recognize we
also have a large audience
that have already posed
several questions.
I want to, actually Dr.
Gomez if you could briefly.
Can you tell the
audience a little bit
about the significance
of Juneteenth,
which is now a federal holiday?
Which is incredible
and that's excellent
and we're celebrating
it this Monday.
What is it come from
historically
and how would you
contextualize the importance
of Juneteenth to start off?
Can you give us that please?
>> Michael Gomez: Well just
very quickly, you know,
I think it's June 19th, that's
when folks in, black people
in Texas in particular,
western Texas were told
that they were free, 1865.
So that was, you know, you
know, some time actually
after Robert E. Lee
had surrendered.
Robert E. Lee had surrendered
earlier in 1865, some months,
a couple of months before that.
And of course the
Emancipation Proclamation,
which didn't free black people
except unless they were in,
you know, states that
were in rebellion,
which would've included Texas.
That was promulgated on the
1st of January, 1863, right?
So, arguably black folk in
rebel states were free two years
before the black folk in
Texas found out about it.
And, now the 13th Amendment
will come along in December
of 1865 and abolish slavery.
So that's when you have
the abolition of slavery.
With the 13th Amendment.
So, it raises all kinds
of questions Daniel.
It raises all kinds of questions
because what did this,
what did it mean?
Because after 1876, '77 and
the end of reconstruction,
black folk were in
a world of trouble.
And you basically had a
kind of second installment
of slavery in the south.
So, I think that as a marker
it's important to say,
okay at this point,
this is just my opinion,
others may feel very
differently about it.
You know, but there is the,
there is the juridical aspect
of it that on this day, you
know, the 13th Amendment,
or Juneteenth, or whatever
at some point black people
were suppose to be free.
And that's important.
But, there's a, but then
there's whole sorted experience
that black people
continue to go through.
Precisely because they
were suppose to be free.
And, so we can talk about that.
Yeah, I don't know if you
want to talk about that.
>> Daniel Tutt: I do, I want to.
>> Michael Gomez: Okay, because
you know, there are those
who will maintain that black
people really don't become,
they move into a kind of
second class citizenship
in Civil Rights movement 1960s.
And that's a very very
strong argument to make.
I'm done.
>> Daniel Tutt: Zaheer would
you like to jump in please?
>> Zaheer Ali: Sure.
I feel the same way
as Michael does.
I think and even the film
reinforces this idea the
contingency, the
contingent nature of this,
quote, unquote freedom.
You know, when Abdul
Rahman gets his freedom,
how free really is he?
He doesn't have the freedom
to reconstitute his family
or to take his family with him.
He pretty much has
to leave the country
because his freedom
undermines the logic,
or some of the white
supramace logic of slavery.
And so, you know, it's
important to talk about freedom
as something that, yes had
to be legally established
and sanctioned, but something
that came self, you know,
out of a kind of
self-determination.
That black people were
not sitting around waiting
for white people to tell
them they were free.
And I think that
narrative around Juneteenth
that doesn't point out the ways
that black people had already
begun constructing the idea
of what freedom should look
like, what it should mean,
the cultural practices
that would survive
and be transmitted.
Like this, you know, I
don't ever want Juneteenth
and especially when it becomes
a federal holiday, as something
that is granted, that is given.
Because whatever is granted
or given always has this
kind of contingent nature.
And I think, you know,
Ibrahima's story reflects that.
The stories of so
many reflect that.
And so, you know, for the, you
look at the traditions of Islam
that really thrive in the black
community in the 20th century,
not only is Islam or the
embrace of Islam a recovery
and a revival, but it's
also a form of resistance.
It is the way to counter a
narrative of white supremacy.
And, yes that narrative, that is
used to counter white supremacy,
there's a whole conversation
to be had, like how much
of this was Islam, how much
of this was black nationalism,
how much of the, but the
point being it is part
of a freedom narrative.
A desire to step out of the
racial hierarchical system
that was imposed upon
black people in America.
Which is why he has
to, he's like, oh okay,
if calling me a Moor is
going to help me get out of
that box you want to
put us in, I'll take it,
I will put on the
dress of a Moor
because apparently that's
the only way you're going
to see me the way I need to be
seen to do what I need to do.
And so, you know, that
is part of this story,
is a story of
self-determination.
And the struggle for
spiritual self-determination
as a form of resistance.
>> Daniel Tutt: Beautifully
said.
We have about 15 minutes
left in our program
and I have questions
piling up from the audience,
many of which dovetail
quite nicely
with what we are discussing.
I want to invite Fatimah
to jump in, I don't know
if her video got lost.
Maybe we can actually move
quickly to a question for Alex.
Alex, several people
want to know more
about how you ascertained
the facts of the movie?
And also, and I think perhaps
Professor Gomez could answer
this, what are historians,
not only historians,
but are there archaeological
discoveries going on here?
And talk Alex to begin with,
who did you work with to sort
of get the facts right?
Get this historical
facts right for this?
>> Alex Kronemer: Yeah.
I mean, well as I said, you
know, the original document
that we worked out of was Terry
Alford's book Prince Among
Slaves, he did an
extensive amount of research
and quite a bit of the
story is research there.
However, we also employed a
pretty significant contingent
of our own researchers.
Both at Unity Productions
Foundation,
but also at our production
partner
in this project Spark Media.
Who's headed by Andrea Kalin.
So we dug up, I mean there
were just a huge richness
of materials.
I mean, we have letters,
we have speeches,
we have newspaper articles.
And I can say that
most of the dialogue
in the film is not
fictionalized.
It was dialogue that we pulled
directly, Abdul Rahman did a,
sort of a, he spoke
out his whole story.
And so, almost every time
that he's speaking in the film
as a narrator, that
is what he said
in his own kind of testament.
For what he experienced and what
he did and what he was thinking.
And of course, as I said,
we had so many other
documents to pull from.
Most of what many of
the characters say is
from newspaper articles that
we collected and so forth.
So though we have reenactments
and you know we purposely wanted
to capture the drama of
the story and so we did it
in the way that we did with, you
know, acting and reenactments,
the actual, what you're hearing
throughout the film coming
out of the mouths of the
characters is actually words
that they actually spoke
at one point or the other.
>> Daniel Tutt: Yeah.
>> Alex Kronemer: In the film.
>> Daniel Tutt: And then
Dr. Gomez are there other
disciplines outside of history
that are helping us get a more
rich and full picture of the?
>> Alex Kronemer:
Actually I want to come,
before Dr. Gomez comments, I
wanted to say also, we also drew
from a pretty rich
oral tradition.
I mean that was actually one
of the really interesting
things we discovered
when we got to Natchez.
That there were a
number of people that,
they haven't published anything,
they're not historians,
but the story of this
man had been passed
down from generation
to generation.
And so we had, I mean we took
down quite a lot
of just dictation.
As people recalled the story
that their great-grandparent
had told them.
Who may have known some
of these characters.
Not only on the African-American
side,
but also on Thomas
Foster's side.
We also had people who were
descendants of Thomas Foster.
Who actually knew quite a bit
and had, and again, not written,
but stories that had been
told through their families.
So there was also quite a lot of
the oral tradition that we drew
from in making this
story that we did.
>> Daniel Tutt: Uh-hum,
uh-hum, uh-hum.
>> Michael Gomez:
Yeah, going back to,
so getting to your
question Daniel.
If I can preface it
because the question,
it's a wonderful question.
I think there could be
something behind the question
because this story is so
extraordinary and so unusual.
And a number of the
elements are so, you know,
what is the likelihood of
someone meeting a physician
that he met in West
Africa, you know,
in Mississippi some years later.
I mean some of this just sounds
just really unbelievable.
So it's an extraordinary
story granted.
Let me say this and then I
want to get to the specifics.
You know, Abdul Rahman's
story is important,
not only to African and
African descendant Muslims,
not only the Muslims in
general, but to all Africans
and their descendants.
Because he's a part
of the collective story
here in this country.
And, you know, I just want to
caution us, I think the title
to the film is wonderful,
Prince Among Slaves.
But, the title can be taken with
a certain kind of connotation.
And I want to kind of just, so
I'm not criticizing it at all,
but I just want to say that,
you know, one of the objectives
of historians working
in slavery studies
over the last 40 years has
been to restore dignity
to the enslaved, to see them as
human beings, with backgrounds,
they were not just slaves.
Which has the effective
dehumanizing them.
So the phrase prince among
slaves could be seen as,
at cross purposes
with the effort
to fully humanize
everyone who was enslaved.
I mean it infers, not that this
was the intent, but it infers
that a kind of mistake was made.
That this, that Abdul Rahman's
station was so far elevated
above everyone else's that he
should not have been enslaved.
Now these other people, but he
should not have been enslaved.
And I just, you know, I just
want to caution us to not,
to really think about
that because,
that should not be the inference
that's, you know, that's drawn.
>> Alex Kronemer: Absolutely,
let me comment on that
since we named the film.
>> Michael Gomez: Yeah.
>> Alex Kronemer: So, there
was sort of a subtlety here.
The slaves that are
being referred
to in the title is actually
everyone who's caught
up in the slave trade.
The white people, the enslavers,
they're enslaved by the economic
and that's why we brought
that into that, you know,
this is the way the
economy functioned.
And they were sort of
enslaved by those things
so that their moral
compass was sort of lost.
And our guy was, one
of the characters
who's navigating this.
I mean in fact because, in fact
and again it's a subtle point,
I mean, he was engaged in
warfare in his home countries.
And was himself someone who
captured people and sold slaves.
So, he was also engaged in the
slave trade in his early years,
but he came, in my
reading of him he came
to be freed from that.
And that, from the
shock was of accepting
that as being the
way things were.
And so, for me it was a play, it
wasn't exactly we were talking
about the other enslaved
Africans as the slaves.
But really everybody who
was engaged in the story
as in some ways enslaved by the
political economy of their time.
It's a subtle point, but was
the idea behind the title.
>> Michael Gomez: I
accept that, I accept that.
And, and so far as
the whole business
about Abdul Rahman being
involved in enslaving
and so forth of West Africa.
There's a growing
historiographical debate
about the role of
Muslim communities
in the transatlantic,
trans-Saharan trade.
And so, I would just note
that there's a lively
debate over that.
Basically it boils down to where
these communities simply trying
to protect themselves
or were they predators.
So there is a debate.
But going back to Daniel's
question, very quickly Daniel.
Yes, there is growing evidence
and it's just mounts, you know,
regularly with respect to
what we know about Muslims
in the Americas from the
17th thru the 19th centuries.
My most, my more recent activity
has been in West Africa itself,
so I need to get back to
some of this, but yes.
I mean, there has been work
on, you know, cemeteries
and the direction in
which these coffins are,
in which people are buried.
And, you know, discussions
about,
so you do have this
archaeological digs.
But also, also there is mounting
literary evidence with respect
to what Muslims were up to.
And one of the, so I understand
that as we now speak West
Africa as, in many parts
of the Muslim world, in
the throws of controversy
over what constitutes
Islam and what does not.
But, I think it's
still fair to say that,
at least up until the
last 10, 20 years,
Islam in West Africa
was largely organized
around Sufism, around
Sufi orders.
And that is really interesting
because we're seeing more
and more evidence about the fact
that some of these individuals
like Muhammad Kaba in
Jamaica was actually following
[inaudible] principles as
he organized his community.
And there's more really
exciting evidence that's coming
out about that.
That has just really
been overlooked.
And so, so the literary
evidence is growing, yeah.
There is archaeological
evidence, yeah.
So, I think if anything more
and more is being uncovered.
One final.
>> Daniel Tutt: Please.
>> Michael Gomez: Note.
When I was doing my research
on Muslims in the Americas.
I was in Salvador, I
was in the archives.
And there are actually amulets
from the 1835 Mali Revolt in,
so as you're going through
the papers, out falls amulets.
That the people who
were participating
in the revolt were using.
And so the authorities they
just simply gathered all
of this stuff up and they
just put it in the archives.
And if you're not working
in the archive you don't
know that it's there.
So, my sense is that it's going
to be more and more information,
you know, coming to the foil.
>> Daniel Tutt: We have
about five minutes left.
People are dying to know
what is the next film of UPF
and Alex we'll close
with you on that.
I want turn to Zaheer
before we do that
and Zaheer just invite you to
offer some closing thoughts
for us on this Juneteenth
holiday.
We didn't get around to
talking about the importance
of liberation as a
theme, as a motif.
I know that I asked
you to think about that
in preparing for this panel.
But any final words
you have for us
as we close are totally welcome.
>> Zaheer Ali: I want
to yield to Fatimah
because I know she has been kind
of off and on and I see her.
So I'm going to yield to her.
>> Fatimah Fanusie: Thank you.
There's a lot I want to say,
I know I won't be
able to say it all.
My connection is really unstable
and I'm fighting a
really bad case of Covid.
So when I am here it sounds like
you all are speaking underwater.
But I wanted to say
quickly just two things.
Like one is, something
about liberation.
But I have to just,
the one thing I want
to say Professor Gomez, I want
to push back just a little bit
on the title and I'm upset
that I'm wasting time on this.
But, if we take slavery, that
slavery experience out of,
if we take that slavery
experience away,
we detract from the humanity
of, I don't feel that we,
I understand that there's
all of this talk in academia
about not using the word slave
and not robbing them
of their humanity.
But when we look at the reality,
to not talk about slavery
and slaves, that's, there
was an entire system designed
to make that.
To make a human being a slave.
But, if we look at the actual
history and the scholars
and historians like yourself
continue explicate it,
then we understand that
it really is a testimony
to the resilience
of the human spirit.
So I just, I wanted to say that,
that I don't think we have to,
you know, quibble
as much over the use
of the word slave although I
understand why you bring up.
And then the second point,
are you guys still there?
It looks like everyone's frozen.
Can someone give me
like a thumbs, okay.
And then just quickly
on liberation.
I don't, there's no way I could
really talk about that theme
and do justice, I find
myself kind of talking
about this every Juneteenth.
But, two things.
I see a significant, in
the story of Ibrahima,
we know that Islam has played a
defining role in the formation
of African-American identity
and African-American culture.
And so Ibrahima is this
spiritual ancestor,
that's accessible
by all African-Americans once
we're aware of his story.
>> Daniel Tutt: Zaheer
feel free if you would jump
in for some final thoughts.
>> Zaheer Ali: You know,
just that, you know,
the lesson of everyone, from
Ibrahima to all of those
who resisted slavery
in its various forms,
whether it's the physical, the
spiritual, the educational,
the economic and all
of its afterlives,
that freedom too has afterlives.
And so, I think that
is to me the importance
of Ibrahima's story is that,
freedom can't be granted
and if it is it's
only contingent.
>> Daniel Tutt: Dr. Gomez if
you want to jump in on this
as a final comment and
then we'll close with Alex
and what he's got next
in terms of films.
>> Michael Gomez: Extraordinary
story, extraordinary story.
And, one of the reasons
why it resonates is it
because it disrupts, it's
disruptive of what people think
about Africans and, you know,
the fact that this man literate,
he practiced [foreign word],
he came from an urban culture.
It just, it's so disruptive.
So it's an important
story to tell.
>> Daniel Tutt: Speaking of
important stories to tell,
Mr. Kronemer tell us
about what you got next.
>> Alex Kronemer: Well,
speaking of disruptive.
Our next film is a
three-part series,
it's going to begin
airing on PBS on July 5th.
It's July 5 at 10 pm nationally.
And it's called The Great
Muslim American Road Trip.
And it's an expiration of
Muslim American history,
American Muslim history
that goes back actually
to the 1400's.
Talking about disruptive.
You know, who knew that there
were Muslims doing actually
important things
as early as that.
And it's structured
with a Muslim couple,
a young Muslim couple, in
fact the, Mona Haydar is part
of the couple, she's a rap
star, some of you know her.
And they are taking a 3,000
mile trip from Chicago
to LA on historic Route 66.
So the, we're learning
about Americas Muslim
roots on Route 66.
And by the way many of the
things that we were touched on,
in terms of the African-American
experience, African-Americans,
there was a rebirth of
Islam in the community.
Immigration, Muslims
doing things today
and the past it really covers a
vast amount of important history
and contemporary
reflections on who Muslims are
and what American Muslims
are trying to do in America.
Watch the show.
>> Daniel Tutt: Great
Alex, thank you so much.
I want to thank our
panelists, invite everyone
to give them a virtual
round of applause.
This has been a wonderful
discussion,
I wish we could've gone
for another hour or more.
We touched the surface.
I want to turn it over to
our colleagues at the Library
of Congress to Anchi
Hoh to close us out.
And thank you all again for
spending the afternoon with us.
>> Anchi Hoh: Yes.
Good evening my name is Dr.
Anchi Hoh, Program Specialist
in the African and
Middle Eastern Division
at the Library of Congress.
So on behalf of our division
chief Dr. Lanisa Kitchiner
and the entire division, we
want to thank our moderator
and panelists and all of the
colleagues who worked so hard
to put this program together.
We want to thank you for a
very very extremely insightful
and inspirational discussion.
And of course we want
to thank our audience
for your participation today.
So following this program
we invite you to contact us
in the African Middle
Eastern Division.
To learn more about the
library's collections
and resources on today's topic.
So please contact us using
ask a librarian service
at ask.loc.gov.
So thank you again
everyone and good night.