>> David M. Rubenstein: This is your latest book, River of the Gods. And it's about the search for the source of the River Nile, where the water originally came from. But before we get into that, you began your career not as a book author, but working at National Geo. Is that right? >> Candice Millard: That's right, yeah. I—I worked at National Geographic for six years, living here in Washington. >> David M. Rubenstein: And was that because you're interested in the outdoors or interested in wildlife? What was the reason? >> Candice Millard: You know, I was always interested in stories about people. And, you know, National Geographic was a favorite of mine, as is for many people growing up. But, but when I got there, I was very lucky. They let me help them find stories about people, stories about history, about biography. And so that was always my interest. But I, I also always say that's really where my real education was, at National Geographic, because I learned how to tell a story and I learned how to research something, how to deeply, try to deeply understand something. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So you left National Geo and you said I'm gonna go write books. And did you worry that was going to be maybe not as productive as working on National Geo? Do you ever worry whether your books would--would sell or not? >> Candice Millard: [Laughs] Yeah, absolutely. I, um... So I wouldn't have left National Geographic, but I got married. My husband has a company in Kansas City. And even eight months after we had gotten married, I was still living here. And then I was pregnant with our first child and I thought, well, we should probably live together at some point. [Laughter] It would be very traditional of us. So... but I didn't want to leave National Geographic because I loved it so much and I had worked really hard to get that job. And I didn't know what I could do in Kansas City that I would love as much. And my husband, who had been... he had been a foreign correspondent with The New York Times, he said you should write a book. And I was like, oh, sure, you know, that sounds great, but how do I... how do they make that happen? But then I got lucky with this idea about Theodore Roosevelt and the Amazon, and it had nothing to do with me. It's just this incredible story. And so it sold pretty quickly. >> David M. Rubenstein: That was a story about Roosevelt. After he ran for president and was served as president, he went to the, uh, to the Amazon looking for, uh, basically to explore one of the r--rivers that hadn't been explored, just completely on the Amazon and how he almost died there and almost came close to committing suicide. >> Candice Millard: That's right. >> David M. Rubenstein: So all right. And that's a great book. And the next book was which? >> Candice Millard: It was, um, Destiny of the Republic, about the assassination of James Garfield. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. And this point there, and you and I have talked about that before, was that Garfield was shot and he didn't die right away. Doctors came in and they put their fingers in his hole to kind of see what, where the bullet was and so forth. And Alexander Graham Bell was saying that he was going to help find the bullet. So how did you come up with the idea for that story? >> Candice Millard: Um, I... It wasn't... I wasn't interested in writing about another president necessarily. And like most Americans, I didn't know anything about Garfield beyond the fact that he had been assassinated. I wanted another story with a lot of science in it. And so I was researching Alexander Graham Bell. And as you said, I stumbled on the story of him inventing something called an induction balance, which actually, by the way, you can see they have the induction balance at the Smithsonian Museum of American History that he developed. And so I thought, why, why did Bell, he just like, he, he threw everything aside, he put everything he had and really risked his own reputation to try to help the president. And I thought, I wonder what Garfield was like. And I started researching and he was extraordinary, brilliant and kind and brave and just an incredibly decent human being. And that's when I decided I really want to try to tell the story. >> David M. Rubenstein: And then after that, you wrote a book on Churchill and the Boer Wars? >> Candice Millard: That's right. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. So, Churchill, Roosevelt, Garfield, prominent people. People would know their names. This book is a great book, but doesn't have people quite as famous. Were you worried that without having a protagonist as well known, that might not sell as much? >> Candice Millard: I'm always worried. I just look for a story that I find fascinating. It takes me about five years working on a book, and so it has to be a story that deeply interests me. And I had heard the story of these two men, Richard Burton, Richard Francis Burton and John Hanning Speke when I was working at National Geographic 20 years ago, and I was fascinated about this story of these two diametrically opposed men, they're incredibly different, and the story of their friendship and the betrayal of that friendship while trying to solve really the greatest mystery in the history of human exploration. But, but then fast-forward 20 years and I'm thinking about this story, and I think I don't want to tell a story about Europeans going into another continent and, "discovering a place where, you know, millions of people have lived for hundreds of thousands of years." And then I ran across the name of Sidi Mubarak Bombay, the third central character. And I thought, okay, this is a story I want to tell. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. So, to set the tone and the context, basically for much of organized history in Western civilization, people didn't know where the river source was for the Nile River, right? >> Candice Millard: That's right. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, people in Egypt are... they're building their civilization. The Nile was coming there for, you know, millions of years, but they didn't know where the water came from. Why were so many people in England, or Europe, so worried about or interested in where the water came from? What was the reason for their interest? >> Candice Millard: So, as you say, this has been a mystery that had sort of tantalized and frustrated people for thousands of years. You know, ancient philosophers, Egyptian kings, had all wondered where is the source of the Nile? Because, you know, this is the longest river in the world. It's more than 4000 miles long, and the most storied river in the world. And it, as you say, it, it gave life to one of the oldest and richest civilizations in history, Egypt. And, so it was just this tantalizing mystery. And... But people... And people had tried for many years to solve it by ascending the river beginning in the north and beginning at the Mediterranean Sea, and trying to make their way toward the source. And the problem was they very quickly ran into a huge area called the Sudd, S-U-D-D, which is... it means barrier. It's a huge swamp and nobody could get past it. And so it wasn't until the 1850s that they finally thought, okay, wait, what we need to do is we need to start on the eastern coast of Africa and head inward and try to find it that way. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. And was there any financial incentive to go discover this, or was there somebody saying, if you discover the source of the Nile, you get $1,000,000 or something like that? >> Candice Millard: Well, for the explorers, it was the prestige, right, and believing that they would go down in history. And they're obviously working with the Royal Geographical Society, which was the, the sort of most admired and esteemed society. And Charles Darwin was a member, David Livingstone was a member, and supported these huge, huge expeditions. But obviously the British Empire was very, very interested in it, as so much of Europe was at that time, very interested in Africa. They want to explore it, they want to map it, and they also want to own it. And, and the thing we have to remember with these expeditions, they were fascinating and, and incredible things happened. But the, the direct and intended consequence of these expeditions was colonization. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, they didn't think about using drones or, they didn't want to... [Laughter] They didn't think about that? >> Candice Millard: No, they didn't. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. So, Mr. Burton, who is the one of the two protagonists, what's his background? >> Candice Millard: Burton was one of the... and he's the main reason I was interested in this at first. He's one of these once-in-a-century characters. He was absolutely brilliant. He wrote dozens ofof books, essays, poems, translations. He, he was an incredible classicist. He spoke more than 25 different languages. And, and he was already, even before he began searching for the source of the Nile, he was an acclaimed explorer already. He had been the first Englishman to enter Mecca disguised as a Muslim, because his Arabic was so incredible. But he was... I always call him an equal opportunity offender. You know, he, he studied every religion and respected none. And, and so... And he was also interestingly, no matter what he accomplished, I mean, he was very famous right away in England, but he was always considered an outsider. He was always looked at with suspicion and distrust. And part of that was because he had been born in England. His parents were British, but he had grown up on the continent. So, he moved 18 times before his 13th birthday from Italy, to Greece, to France, just picking up languages and cultures along the way. And he also, to the British, he didn't look particularly British. So he had his English-Irish father's black, black hair and black eyes. And he was said to use to hypnotize women, to try and control them. But, even Bram Stoker, who would go on to write Dracula, was obsessed with him. And he wrote... and he met Burton before he wrote Dracula. And he talks about him. He was like, he was mesmerizing. He would... he said he was like steel. He would go through you like a sword. And he even talked about Burton's teeth. He said that when he spoke, his, um, his canines shone like the gleam of a dagger. [Laughter] >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So... And he was a person that, didn't have a wealthy background, really. He didn't come from a lot of wealth. Okay, so he decides at one point he wants to discover the source of the Nile? >> Candice Millard: Right. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, does he put a team together? Who backs him to do this? >> Candice Millard: The Royal Geographical Society, because... and as you say, he doesn't have any money. He doesn't have a title. He seems kind of strange and scary, but, but he is incredibly accomplished and incredibly knowledgeable. So the Royal Geographical Society understands that this is the right man to try to find the source of the Nile. So, they, they choose him to do it and they're going to sort of give him their backing, but, but very little funding. They were only able to give him £1,000, which is... you know, he needed five times that amount for, for a journey like this. >> David M. Rubenstein: So he begins to build a team to go. Who is the number two person on that team? >> Candice Millard: It's really just him. And then he's chosen a few friends. He chose a few other friends who had various, um, specialties, you know, that, that would be helpful on the trip. But they... they're going to start in Aden on this expedition. And he's waiting for one man, a good friend of his, to join them. And... but when the boat arrives, his friend's not on it. Instead, he receives news of his friend's death. His friend was only in his thirties and he had died suddenly. And so he has a... he's missing a member of his expedition. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, who does he get to replace that person, or does he have a one person who he relies on a bit? >> Candice Millard: So, he meets while he's in Aden, he meets a young man named John Hanning Speke, who's about 27 years old at the time. And Speke was the complete opposite of Burton. So, he, he was everything that Britains expected their explorers, their heroes to be. He was blond and blue eyed. He had born... been born into the aristocracy. He was an officer in the British army, and he loved to hunt. And so he, um, had, had taken a leave, and he was going to Africa. He wanted to go to Somaliland to hunt. But when he gets to Aiden, the British official there says, no, you can't. It's too dangerous. You can't go by yourself. And he's shocked because usually his way was paved and everybody said, of course, whatever you want to do, and so he won't give up. And finally, this official says, well, maybe talk to Burton. He's getting ready to go. Maybe he'llhe'll take you with him. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So they go together ultimately. And where do they kick off the effort to get to the source and... What country do they begin in? >> Candice Millard: So they're in what was then called Somaliland. And, and of course, you know, these people, they were not invited to this land. They are potential threat, and in the long run... or were certainly dangerous to the people who live there. And so it's, it's a risk. So one night they're, they're camped out. They haven't even really begun. >> David M. Rubenstein: They're in Somaliland. [Crosstalk] Which is now Somalia. >> Candice Millard: That's right. It's now Somalia. It's right on the Horn of Africa, right across from Aden. And, um, they're attacked one night by hundreds of Somali, and one member of their expedition is killed. Speke is kidnapped and stabbed 11 times. It's really incredible that he survived it. And Burton has a javelin thrust through his jaw. He was impaled from cheek to cheek for hours. He couldn't get it out and it gave him this incredible scar down his face, which made him seem even scarier and more interesting than he did before. And, so, the... but the expedition ended before it could even begin. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So they're lucky they were alive. And so they had to retool and go back again. Is that right? >> Candice Millard: That's right. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So they go back and, how much longer is it before they are ever to go back the second time? >> Candice Millard: Well, there was a break because the Crimean War had started when they were in Africa. And so they go back and they take part in the Crimean War. And so it's not until 1856 that they're able to return to East Africa. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So, 1856, they get more money from the Royal Geographical Society. They start, they use as a jumping-off point... Zanzibar? >> Candice Millard: That's right. >> David M. Rubenstein: And Zanzibar was... that's right across the water from Somaliland, more or less? So they... they have... >> Candice Millard: Farther south from Somaliland. >> David M. Rubenstein: They have the provisions, they have the supplies. How many people do they have on that expedition? >> Candice Millard: They end up with right around 150 people. It's always come and go. They, they needed a lot more than that. So these expeditions, I mean, it's kind of hard for us to imagine, but, you know, they're traveling... So they were wanting to go all the way west to Lake Tanganyika. So it's a round-trip trip, round-trip trip of almost 2000 miles. So, it's a long and... so it takes them years, they're there. So they need... and they're trying to bring, yeah, all their supplies and food and everything with them. So, yeah, they have about roughly 150 men and as many donkeys as they can get. >> David M. Rubenstein: And they need a lot of donkeys, because they need somebody to carry all the supplies. And the donkeys are happy to carry the supplies? >> Candice Millard: [Chuckles] They're not happy at all. [Laughter] No, they they're constantly running off or dying or being attacked by hyenas or, you know... They... yeah, just tipping things over. And yeah, it's a constant disaster for donkeys. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So they... they're going along, and after how many months or so do they actually get to a place where it's near where the source of the Nile is? >> Candice Millard: Well, so, just to explain a little bit, so they... Again, they thought... At first they used to think that there was just a desert in the middle of Africa. And then these German missionary explorers said, no, it's actually one enormous lake. And they drew this famous map that looks like a huge slug. It was called the slug, the slug map. Um, and so when they get in and they start talking to people, they're talking to Africans, talking to Arabs who have lived there, they're like, actually, no, there are three different lakes. And so they don't know which one. But Burton thinks that it's probably Lake Tanganyika, far to the west, and so it takes them not quite a year to get there. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So they get there and ultimately see this lake. But, then Burton is so injured and so hobbled by the mosquitoes and the other animals that hurt him and other diseases he got, and malaria or whatever else it might be, he is not able to go much further than seeing that lake, is that right? >> Candice Millard: That's right. He had such severe malaria that he was paralyzed, could not walk for nearly a year. He couldn't even use his hands to write with. So he's so ill he can't get into a boat. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, he's sitting in kind of a hammock, and people have to carry him there. >> David M. Rubenstein: But his... Mr. Speke, he says, Well, I'll go ahead and keep exploring and I'll let you know how things go. So then what does Mr. Speke do? >> Candice Millard: Well, they have real trouble because they hadn't, they didn't bring their boats along with them. So they have to try to rent boats from the people who live there. And there are wars going on. And so, they never are able to completely circumnavigate this, this whole, this whole lake. And, while they're there, they're... poor Speke. So he... they've both been also blinded by infection for months at a time. And Speke, one night, um, when he's trying to circumnavigate Lake Tanganyika, he, um, his tent is blown down in a storm. And so he lights a candle to try to erect it. And it attracts this horde of beetles. Hundreds of beetles are filling his tent, and he's desperately trying to fight them off. And then, finally, just out of pure exhaustion, he lays down and one of the beetles starts climbing into his ear and burrowing deeper and deeper into his ear. And it's angry because it can't get out, and it's burrowing deeper. And he's desperate. So he's trying... He's pouring butter, oil salts, anything to try to get it out. And finally, out of desperation, he takes a pen knife [Audience gasps] and he digs it into his ear. He just stabs himself in the ear and he kills the beetle. [Laughter] But he also deafens himself in that ear for the rest of his life. And for the next few weeks, bits of the beetle come out in his ear wax [Audience murmuring] like a leg and a wing and... yeah. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So, after he overcomes that modest problem, [Laughter], he then decides, I'm going to go and see whether one of the three legs is actually the real leg, not the one that they've seen, but another one he thinks might be the real source of the Nile. Does he get to that lake? >> Candice Millard: He does. So they're, they're heading back. And they have heard stories of an even larger lake to the north and east of Tanganyika. And, so... and Burton is still, can't walk still. And, so Speke says, let me take Bombay, who had become really the center of this expedition and see what I can find. It's another >> David M. Rubenstein: Bombay is an African-by-birth person who is more or less... Was he a slave at one point, or...? >> Candice Millard: He was. So, Sidi Mubarak Bombay, he had been kidnapped from his village as a child, his village in East Africa, and dragged to the coast and taken to Zanzibar where he'd been sold for cloth. And then he had been taken to western India, where he was enslaved for 20 years. And he made his way back to Africa, and Burton and Speke meet him and immediately know that they want him as part of their expedition. And as I said, he... I mean, he's a porter, he's a translator, he's a nurse. He's, you know, he comes from this unbelievable loss and tragedy and he comes out of it not with bitterness, but with kindness. He was unbelievably kind and, and generous, and, and Speke relied completely on him. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So, Speke and Bombay, go to this other lake. They see it. They don't completely circumnavigate it, but they see it and they say, hey, this is probably the source of the Nile? >> Candice Millard: Speke does. Yes. He goes to the southern reaches of it, it's called Lake Nyanza, and it's, it's more than 26,000 square miles. It's the largest lake as an area of more than 26,000 square miles. It's the largest lake in Africa, the second largest lake in the world. >> David M. Rubenstein: It's been renamed by Speke, what? >> Candice Millard: He named it for, this African lake, for his own queen, Lake Victoria. >> David M. Rubenstein: So... Okay, he comes back, he picks up Mr. Burton, and they go back to, uh, civilization or Western civilization. And then what happens? They go back to England and say, guess what, we failed? Or, guess what, we actually discovered the source of the Nile? >> Candice Millard: So they get back to, um, Zanzibar, and Burton is not well enough to head back to England. But Speke is and he's very excited, and he feels that he has just discovered the source of the Nile. And Burton says, maybe, but we need a lot more information. And Speke says, okay, I'm gonna go back to England, but don't worry, I won't talk to anybody until you can join me. But he gets on this ship and he meets an old friend of his, this guy named Lawrence Oliphant, who's this young, wealthy, kind of bored guy who kind of likes to make trouble. And he starts talking to Speke and he essentially says, look, you know, Burton's brilliant, Burton's famous, Burton has all the experience. The only thing you have is that you're going to get there first. And, so Speke gets back to England. He goes right to the Royal Geographical Society, and he said, I've discovered the source of the Nile. >> David M. Rubenstein: And Mr. Burton, when he hears about this, is not thrilled. >> Candice Millard: No, he's not. So he comes back a month or so later and is shocked to find that Speke now has been given his own expedition, and he's going to be sent back to Africa to try to confirm this lake as a source. >> David M. Rubenstein: Can you explain this, because people in Washington may not be familiar with people taking credit for something [Laughter] somebody else did. >> Candice Millard: Right. >> David M. Rubenstein: So Mr. Speke takes credit for discovering the source of the Nile, is that right? >> Candice Millard: He does, yeah. >> David M. Rubenstein: And Mr. Burton is not happy for that. >> Candice Millard: No, he's not happy. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. So eventually the Royal Geographic Society says we want to go back and go back again and really prove this. So they authorize Mr. Speke to go back on another expedition. And what about Mr. Burton? Does he have anything? >> Candice Millard: No, he has nothing. And he's just at a loss of... What he's always had is a challenge, you know, and he was always, whenever he would accomplish something huge, some triumph, he would fall into a deep depression because he didn't have his next challenge. And he always thought, well, of course, you know, I'm going to go back and I'm going to going to solve this mystery. And, um, and he, he doesn't. And so he's really sort of, he's angry, he's frustrated, and he's looking for, what can be my next great challenge? while Speke is, is-- >> David M. Rubenstein: Speke goes back, he takes Mr. Bombay with him again, and they go back and they go through the same route and they go back to the lake. That now he's calling Lake Victoria. And is it clear to them then that this is the source of the Nile? >> Candice Millard: Now they go to the northern reaches of it and they do see the Nile pouring out of it. But there's still a lot of questions because each time they're only there for a few days, and the second time the same things happen, you know? People desert, they're sick, they don't have enough food. It's, it's an incredibly difficult trip. And so they don't, they're not able to take all the scientific measurements and things. So, again, he says, yes, I'm sure, but, but scientifically, they still need more. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So when they complete the mission, though, they come back to London. What does Mr. Speke say? He says, I have discovered the source of the Nile or not? >> Candice Millard: Yes, he does. He's, he's absolutely confident that he has discovered the source of the Nile. But, you know, there... Burton obviously says we don't know that yet. And there are a lot of, there are all these armchair geographers, gentlemen scientists who are there. And there's just, you know, these, these men who have never left England but have very firm and secure opinions about what's going on in Africa. And so they decide to have a debate. >> David M. Rubenstein: So they have a debate. Mr. Burton's view is, you really didn't discover this in a scientific way. You can't know for certain. And by the way, you shouldn't take credit for something that I really discovered. And Mr. Speke is saying Mr. Burton is an old guy, really out of it, and I really discovered it. So they're going to have a debate. And, so, had they talked to each other in the couple of years or so before the debate? >> Candice Millard: They had not. And in fact, um, they see the... The day before the debate is scheduled... So it's, it's taking place in Bath, in England. And it's... The Royal Geographical Society is having its big summer conference and, I mean, it's the huge... it's been called the Nile Debate. And everybody's fascinated and everyone's coming to, to hear what's gonna happen. And they run into each other for the first time in years and and they see each other. And Speke is visibly upset. And he very quickly just leaves. He sort of runs out and he leaves [indistinct]. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, he runs out and he, where does he go? He goes to his family estate? >> Candice Millard: Right. So his family, his uncle has an estate just outside of Bath, maybe ten miles. It's called Neston Park. And it's still, it's still there today. And he had grown up going there and going hunting there all the time. And he... it was a place of refuge for him. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, he goes back there, and he's a skilled hunter, and... he's a very skilled, uh, hunter and knows how to operate with guns and so forth. What happens when he goes back? >> Candice Millard: So as you say, he's an incredibly skilled and experienced hunter and he's also very well known for being extremely careful with his firearms, no matter where. Even in Africa, Burton would write about, you know, they would be on a boat and a hippo would come up under it and upset the boat. And he was always very, very aware of where his rifle was pointing. But his... he was going to go hunting with his, um, his cousin and the gameskeeper. And the cousin notices that he's really wrought up. He, he's upset and he's just not himself. And the cousin thinks, I'm just going to keep a distance from him. And so they're just in this flat field, it's something he knows incredibly well. And they're out hunting, and, and the cousin is ahead of them, and there's this low stone wall that they have to climb over, which is still there today. And, um, his cousin hears the gun go off and he turns around expecting to see a bird falling from the sky. Instead, he sees his cousin Speke falling from this little stone wall, and he runs over and he finds him and he's shot himself. >> David M. Rubenstein: By accident, or suicide? >> Candice Millard: We will never know. And, so there's a lot of questions. And even at the time, people wondered, how is it possible for someone who has such experience with hunting and is so careful with his firearms to have his his rifle cocked and open as he's climbing over a wall and pointing at his own chest, he shot himself in the chest and, um, and he only lived for about 15 minutes after that. >> David M. Rubenstein: So. All right. So there is obviously no debate, but what happens to Mr. Burton the rest of his life? >> Candice Millard: Well, the fascinating... So, this, this takes place right before this debate is gonna happen. And nobody knows. And Burton's at the location for the debate, the Royal Mineral Hospital in Bath. And he's waiting and he's waiting to finally have his opportunity to speak, right, and, and say what he knows and what he believes and to finally to debate, openly speak. And he's waiting, and there's a room to the side with all these officials of the Royal Geographical Society. They're getting ready for the debate. And a messenger comes in and hands a telegram to the president of the society. He reads it and he passes it on, and it's passed all the way around. And finally someone says, "Someone needs to tell Burton," and they pull him in and they tell him that John Hanning Speke is dead. And he is grief stricken, he is shocked and grief stricken, but he also knows that Spekes's death is going to silence them both. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, Burton, we didn't talk about this, but he... there was a woman he met much younger and he marries her. And essentially, they have a very good marriage, I think, for quite some time. And then what, what happens at the end of his life is, he does he fall ill, and what happens? >> Candice Millard: So he married Isabel Arundell, and she, as you say, she was ten years younger. She waited nine years to marry him. And she was raised in this very strict Catholic family, very strict mother. And she was Catholic, but still in the British aristocracy. And, but she had had this very insular life, and she dreamed of a very different kind of life, of a life of freedom and adventure. And she says, I wish I were a man. If I were, I would be Richard Burton. As I am a woman, I will be Richard Burton's wife. And so she, when she finally is able to to marry him, she does everything she can to be the perfect wife, you know. She learns how to ride a horse, she learns to fence, you know, hoping that someday she'll be called on to save her husband's life. But, unfortunately, in the end she decides that what she needs to do is not try to save her husband's life, but to try to save his soul. And she all for years had tried to convince him to convert to Catholicism, but he was an open, adamant agnostic. Um, and near the end of his life, when he's ill and weaker, she's now kind of in control and sort of controlling his life. And, um, and when he dies, he's working on one of his translations. He starts at the end of his life translating the Kama Sutra. He was he was the first to translate the Kama Sutra into English, Um, Arabian Nights... So, all of these books that-- >> David M. Rubenstein: He seems to have an obsession with translating-- he's pretty good in language. He translates a lot of pornographic, uh, material, some people would say. >> Candice Millard: Yes, yeah. And you can imagine Victorian England, so everyone's shocked and appalled and secretly buying every copy they can. [Laughter] So he thought it was really funny because he made more money doing that than anything else he had ever done. But Isabel is really concerned about this, for his soul, about, about translating these. >> David M. Rubenstein: And, at the end of his life, as he has a heart attack, more or less, and he's dying. >> Candice Millard: Right. >> David M. Rubenstein: Um, he just about finished another major translation of a pornographic book, which will sell lots of copies to people who don't want to admit that they're buying it. What does she do with those pages of the book that he's written? >> Candice Millard: So he tells her he's just about to finish his... it's called The Scented Garden. And he just, he says, tomorrow I'm going to finish this. And this is my master work. This is the, the work that I am most proud of. But it's, this is also for you because this is going to sell well and this will support you in your old age. And the next morning he dies before finishing it and she is bereft. You know, she for 40 years of her life, she had built her whole life around him. Um, but she insists on a Catholic funeral for him. And, um, when she gets home, she goes into the, into his room where the pages of this, of this book are, and knowing how he felt about it and the pride that he felt, and it felt... feeling that this was a big part of his legacy. But she thinks... it's very different to say, this is what I want to do, this is what I'm proud of when you're here on Earth. But when you have died and heaven and you have to answer for your sins, how would you feel? And so she takes this book, and there's a roaring fire in the room, and she feeds it page by page into the flames. And she says, "If he could see me now, would he rise up from his grave and bless me or curse me? The question will haunt me to my death." >> David M. Rubenstein: So, what is the source of the Nile? [Laughter] >> Candice Millard: The principal source of the Nile, which feeds by far the most water into it, is Lake Victoria, then the Nyanza. However, there are, as with any huge lake, many, many feeder rivers. And so, and I think it was in 2006, a modern day explorer followed it as far as he could to a small lake in Burundi, which is now considered the true farthest source. But again, the principal source is Lake Victoria or the Nyanza. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, the Nile is also the longest river in the world, but also it goes counter to the way most rivers go. It goes south to north, right. So most go north to south. So anybody ever figured out why that is or... >> Candice Millard: No. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. All right. So, what is the... The message that you want to give readers of this book is, if you're trying to discover the source of the Nile, keep looking? [Laughter] Or be careful of people who you think are your good friends? What is the message that you want to convey to people from this book? >> Candice Millard: Well, what I took away from it, and I hope readers do, is the, is sort of a recurring theme throughout the book is danger. And there's a danger of obsession. There's the danger of envy. But to me, the real danger is the danger of arrogance, of, you know, of believing that you can discover again, discover a huge, huge feature in a different continent where, you know, millions of people have lived, the danger of thinking that you can somehow improve the lives of the people who live there by, by taking their land and their resources and appropriating their history and their culture. So to me, and I think about this as history in general, I think that what we owe ourselves and we owe the future is to, um, it's to be honest with our history, to appreciate it and to talk about it, but, to, to be honest about it and to go back to it again and again and use it to, to try to correct our course today. >> David M. Rubenstein: So if you had a chance to speak to Mr. Burton, what would be the one question you want to ask him? >> Candice Millard: I would ask him what he would do next, what would be his next great adventure if he had the time and the, and his health back, what would he have... what would he have done? >> David M. Rubenstein: And Mr. Speke, what would you ask him? >> Candice Millard: I would ask him if he had done it on purpose. >> David M. Rubenstein: Purpose. And Bombay? What would you ask him? >> Candice Millard: I would love to meet Bombay. And let me just say really quickly about Bombay, if I can. So as I said, so, you know, he went with Burton and Speke to, they were, may have been the first Europeans to reach Lake Tanganyika, took Speke to the Nyanza, Lake Victoria. He also was with Henry Morton Stanley when he found David Livingstone. You know, "Dr. Livingstone, I presume?" That was Bombay, taking him back to Lake Tanganyika. And then he was with Verney Lovett Cameron when they became the... as... what we know of, the first to cross the entire continent from east to west, sea to sea. So I would ask him how you felt about these accomplishments that you made. And, and let me also say again, I worked at National Geographic for six years. I was steeped in stories about exploration, stories about Africa. I had, of course, heard about Burton and Speke; I had never heard of Sidi Mubarak Bombay. And I believe that he is the most accomplished guide and explorer in the history of African exploration. And I wish he knew that. >> David M. Rubenstein: So in reading this book, I think I had a hard time understanding how you could know all these facts from something that happened in the 1850s? Was it letters or diaries? How did you get this information about what people were saying to each other? It's incredibly detailed, and... Where is the source of the information for this? >> Candice Millard: Yes, as you say, letters, diaries, all these men wrote their own books, um, articles. There's a wealth, a wealth of primary source material. And that's one of the main things, before I commit to a subject to write a book about, I make sure that there are just mountains of primary source material, and they're everywhere. So I went to the UK, I went to... the Royal Geographical Society has incredible archives, Royal Asiatic Society, the British Library, the National Library of Scotland and Edinburgh. And then I, um, I had the great privilege and joy of going to East Africa. I'd been there years ago for National Geographic, to do a story on Ethiopia, but I was in Zanzibar, Kenya, um, Tanzania, Uganda. And when I was in... I'll tell a quick story when I was in Tanzania. Lake Tanganyika, it's it's this really long, huge, huge lake. And it's like 4000 feet deep. And, um, and I was trying to cross from one bank to the other, and there had been a big storm. And so the boat we were waiting for was later and later; it was getting really dark and nighttime fully by the time it came. And my husband was with me, and we get on this boat and it's, it's small, it holds maybe eight, ten people, and it's an open boat. And these lakes are so huge, you feel like you're on the ocean when you're on them. And again, there had been a big storm, so it was really, it was like being on a storm-tossed sea and this little boat, and the boat's just tipping wild, like, all the way over. And I'm terrified. And I said to my husband, I was like, look, look how far that other bank is. If we capsize, there's no way we'll make it. We can't, we can't swim that far. And he was like, don't worry about it, the crocodiles will eat us before we get there. [Laughter] >> David M. Rubenstein: So, I've enjoyed reading this book and talking with you about it. And when you write a book like this, uh, it takes you a couple of years of research and a couple of years to write it? You research all the research, then write it, or how do you do that? >> Candice Millard: I do. So again, it's about, this was about six years and, um, 80 percent of the time is doing research. So, I just cast a very big net, get everything I can, and then try to organize it, and then I spend a year outlining it. I spend a lot of time on the outline. When I talk to high school students, they don't like to hear that. [Laughter] But to me, at least, I can't do what I what I do, the way I write without outlining. And then I find holes in my research. I go back and and do more. And, so it's not until the last year that I start writing. >> David M. Rubenstein: And there are no descendants of either Speke or Burton, right? They neither had children, right? So there are no descendants from collateral relatives or anything like that, there's nobody to talk to? >> Candice Millard: Well, as I said, at Neston Park, which is where Speke died and he was visiting his cousin, the Fuller family still owns that. And I was able to go there and, um, and go through the house and walk the fields where they were hunting with him. And he actually gave me a pace, the wall that he was climbing over is this loose flagstones. And he gave me one of the stones from that wall that I have in my office. >> David M. Rubenstein: So there was another Richard Burton later who married Elizabeth Taylor. They're not related, right? >> Candice Millard: [Laughs] No, they're not related. Not that I know of. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. All right. Well, look, this is a really interesting story. And as you said on the cover, it's a story of genius, courage, and betrayal in the search for the source of the Nile. And, Candice Millard, it's a terrific book. Congratulations, and, uh, I look forward to your next book, okay? >> Candice Millard: Thank you. [Applause] It was an honor. Thank you, everyone.