>> Mary Beth Albright:
Hello. Good afternoon.
Thanks. I'm Mary Beth Albright.
I'm a correspondent and editor
at The Washington Post.
And I'm really thrilled to be
here today because I feel that
"Do Nothing" is a book for our
time right now.
I don't know if you were just
at the last session about
anxiety, but this is like--it's
a very good through line that
we're working on right now.
And it gave me reading-- "Do
Nothing" gave me layers of
appreciation for this basic
human truth that our speaker,
Celeste Headlee, is going to
tell us about today, which is
that as humans, we have an
innate need to create and to
make things better.
And at the same time as humans,
we have an innate need to rest.
And if we don't have a society
that supports that, we really
need to navigate those waters
ourselves.
And that is part of our work as
humans.
And as you can see, as we
talked about, Celeste Headlee is
here today with us, I'm a
little fangirling right now over
her, to talk about the book and
then to take a lot of your
questions, so get those ready.
Celeste Headlee is an award
winning journalist with 20 years
in public radio, including the
anchor of "Tell Me More", "Talk of
the Nation", "All Things
Considered", "1 A" and "Weekend
Edition". Never heard of any of
those, right?
It's like all the greats.
She is the bestselling author
of "We Need to Talk", "How to Have
Conversations That Matter".
And to that point, her TED
talk, Her TEDx talk on having
better conversations now has
more than 34 million views,
including one of my just this
morning I watched it again and
it really is fantastic.
It's one of those talks that ends
and you're like, it's finished?
How could that have
possibly been 20 minutes?
So she's--she's helped
a lot of people with
the book "Do Nothing,"
and with that TEDx talk.
And she's here today to
continue to do that.
So, Celeste, come on up and
tell us how to live. [Applause]
>> Celeste Headlee:
Hello. Every time I talk,
there's always a lot
of questions, so I'm
only going to talk for
10 minutes, and then
we're going to take your
questions. I find that there's
often a lot of pushback on "Do
Nothing."
And I want to talk about why I
believe that there is
resistance. But first, let me
begin with why this book was
written, because I actually
when I began researching for "Do
Nothing", I--I wasn't writing a
book.
I was writing a different book
entirely.
But I myself was
exhausted. [Laughs]
I was worn out. I
was overwhelmed.
I was frustrated.
I was not happy.
And the thing of it was, is
that I had finally reached--
finally reached financial
stability.
Like my very first book
advance, I paid off my student
loans and I had finally reached
a point where I had gotten the
kind of success where I could,
you know, feel, I guess, stable.
And I--I had my
whole life thought about
that moment, what
that would be like.
And I had all these, you know,
thoughts that, you know, when I
pay off all my debts, I'm going
to go to New Zealand and I'm
going to learn how to salsa
dance.
And instead I was just working
more all the time.
And so then--so then I thought,
well, it must be my boss, so I'm
going to quit my job and I'm
going to become self employed.
And anyone who's ever been
self-employed knows how stupid
that decision was.
[Laughter]
So that even when I had control
over my own schedule, it got
exponentially worse.
And at one point I got so sick,
and I'm a very healthy person,
but I got so sick I was out for
like ten days, like out.
And so that's when I started
the research.
I was like, something--
something core
is wrong and I
need to figure it out.
And so I thought that the
answer was going to be
technology. I thought that, you
know, I was just addicted to my
smartphone and my smartwatch
and my tablet and my laptop and
my Twitter, and that once I got
that under control, it would
solve things. And I actually
became a Luddite for over a
month. And I just--I got one of
those dumb phones that, you know
what I'm talking about, and I
let go of my technology.
And it I mean, it didn help a
little bit.
I mean, quitting Facebook was
revolutionary, but that wasn't
the core of the problem.
So I went and sought out the
best librarians I could find.
And I was like, I need to start
peeling back the layers of this
onion. And I kept going back
and back in history to try to
figure out why I felt
guilty any time I sat
down at the on the couch
to watch a movie and
didn't also check my email, why
that made me feel bad about
myself. And the--the aha moment
for me was when I realized that
before the Industrial Revolution
and for most of Homo sapiens,
300,000 years on this
planet, we lived a very
different way for most of our
human history.
We lived one way and then the
Industrial Revolution came along
and changed almost everything.
I mean, I don't know what your
education was like in high school.
Mine was very good, and
yet I really don't think they
impressed upon me how much the
Industrial Revolution changed.
Up until like 1920,
1930, the majority of
people on the planet
lived in the country.
It wasn't until very recently,
like less than 100 years ago,
that people really began to
live in cities.
It wasn't until the Industrial
Revolution that time began to
equal money. That
was when that all started.
In other words, if it's, you
know,
1650 and your
wagon wheel breaks.
You go to the person who makes
wagon wheels and they make you a
wagon wheel, and
then that job is done.
But when you have a factory,
you just keep making wagon
wheels. It never stops.
Which means, A, your work is
never done, but also it means
it's not how well you do work,
it's how long you spend doing it.
So we had-- if you go back
and look at some, even some of
the buildings that surround us
and look at the craftsmanship of
the way some of these buildings
were made, the carvings in the
wood and the
mosaics and the tile.
We can't do that today because
it's too expensive.
Why? Because we don't have a
Craftsman class anymore.
Because when factories came
around, that person who did
mosaics for a living couldn't
outbid the person who's just
making tile
after tile after tile.
And so they gave up their
tools, meaning they no longer
even owned their own tools to
make a living and went into a
factory where they were no
different than the next person
beside them who didn't have 40
years making tile.
Because what was important at
that point was not how good they
were. It was how much time they
could spend on the line.
And in fact, some factory
owners at that time, we have
documented, they
would literally steal time.
They would sneak in and change
the hands on the clocks so they
could steal the time of their
workers.
And when you think about it
that way, that this idea that
time is money is a complete
construct.
And evolutionarily speaking,
it's a very recent construct.
It begins to make sense that
when we are not working, it
feels like we're wasting money.
It feels like we can't afford to
sit and watch a movie without
also checking our email.
And the more money you make,
the more likely you are to
believe that you can't afford
to waste any time. Because, of
course, your time is more
valuable. It used to be that
people who are in the middle to
the lower classes, they worked
really, really long hours.
Now the lower your income, very
often, the fewer hours you work.
And the most-- the most
overscheduled people are the
people at the highest end of
the income scale.
And here's the
other thing, is that
there's literally no
reason to be working
that hard when you're
making that money.
I mean, good 25
years worth of research.
Good, solid, fact checked,
peer-reviewed research shows that if
you make more than anything you
make above, say 78,000 a year,
doesn't make you any happier
and it doesn't make you any
healthier. So we trade away our
time checking Slack and email at
8:00 on a Saturday night, and
it's not going to make us
happier, and it doesn't make us
healthier.
So why?
Why? Also people who work
excessive hours,
that's like more than 50, 55
hours a week, only get on average
about 6% more in salary.
The thing of it is.
This situation that we're in
right now in which
Religion and capitalism and
government have all conspired
together. And I use the word
conspire very intentionally.
To make us believe that our
worth depends on how hard we work
That was very intentional.
That didn't happen by chance.
And this is one of the things
that I discovered as I started
to pore through
these, let's be honest,
incredibly boring
texts. [Laughter]
about work habits
and work hours.
I mean, honestly,
I mean, you all
owe me a debt of thanks,
because [Laughter]
you don't
have to read about
the labor hours
of the Greek serf.
I don't recommend it. But this
is what I found out.
And one of the big--another big
eye opener, frankly, this whole
research was just epiphany
after epiphany, was that there--
there rose this huge movement
to limit our working hours
during the day to 8 hours.
And it was global.
In fact, it was a South
American country that first
instituted that as
a--as a--as a law.
So there was this massive
movement to limit our working
hours to 8 hours a day.
And it took a very long time.
People lost their lives.
They put their lives on the line
to earn us the eight hour day.
And at that point, we still
have the documentation showing
that business owners said,
okay, we've lost this.
So what we're going to do is
we're going to choose another
way to get people
to stay longer.
And they learned a really,
really great lesson from some of
the people who did covert
operations and propaganda during
World War One and World War
Two, and they realized
we don't have to have
a law saying you can
work 8 hours a day if we
convince people that good
citizens and good people, and
good people who are going to
heaven, are the ones who work
longer, if we can really drill
in the Protestant work ethic,
if we truly make people believe
that you earn your position in
life, that if you're unemployed,
you deserve to be.
You deserve to be poverty
stricken.
If we can convince people of
that, we don't need the law, they
will choose to work longer
hours.
And that is exactly what has
happened.
In fact, every generation since
then has leaned into this.
So much so that Americans, on
average, donate over
a trillion dollars to their
employers every year by choosing
not to take paid vacation time.
I'm going to repeat that.
This is only for Americans who
have paid vacation time.
And yet, even among that number
of people, we donate over
a trillion dollars to our
employers.
You are giving them money, even
though those who take all of
their vacation time are double
digits, more likely to be
promoted, double digits more
likely to get a raise in salary.
That is the end of my 10
minutes and we're going to move
to questions. [Applause]
The last thing I will say as we
go to questions is that I get a
lot of resistance, especially
from some of the older
generations, who really want to
believe that anyone who
complains about not succeeding
is not working hard enough.
And let me just tell you, the
evidence doesn't support that.
That's bunk. So, questions.
[Applause]
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
I have two quick questions.
What would you say to the person
who says they love their job,
They get fulfillment from their
job, so working long hours
is okay? And do you think the
four day workweek is inevitable?
>> Celeste Headlee:
I love my job, too.
But the thing of it is, is that
there is a law of diminishing
returns when it comes to focus.
The human brain can only focus
for a certain number of hours a
day. And for the average person
at somewhere between 3 to 5
hours a day, that's all you
got.
Now that's enough.
Charles Dickens worked maybe 4
hours a day.
Charles Darwin worked maybe 4
hours a day on Henri Poincaré.
If you look at the people who
are incredibly productive and
accomplished through history,
they worked on average about 4
hours a day. So working longer
actually makes you less
productive because you make way
more errors, you're less
innovative, you're less
creative, and you end up just
having to redo a bunch of work.
So that's number one. Stop
working. You love your job.
Great. Love it for a few
hours a day. [Laughing]
Second, what was the second
question again? Four day work week.
We really should be working
at two or three day workweek.
[Applause]
Next question. Oh, next
question.
>> Shonda: So I'm
interested in a timely way,
in the way that "Do Nothing"
speaks to or speaks against
this quiet quitting.
>> Celeste Headlee:
Oh, my God. [Laughter]
>> Shonda:
What are you doing with it? What
should we be doing with it?
How did it become a thing?
[Laughing]
>> Celeste Headlee:
This is a book festival.
I'm not going to swear. [Laughter]
Quiet quitting is crap.
And again, this is just a
manipulation.
And it's mostly targeted to make,
yet again, young people look
like they're irresponsible.
Quiet quitting is people
establishing healthy boundaries.
We-- and it's not new.
We have been talking about work
life balance for a very, very
long time. And somebody
saying, I'm going
to work only the
hours you pay me for.
That's not quitting.
That's working the hours you
pay me for. And quiet "quitting,"
trying to make me feel guilty
for establishing a work life
balance is ridiculous. Here's
what I say to everybody.
You need to treat yourself like
you're the shop.
What's your name?
>> Shonda:
Shonda.
>> Celeste Headlee:
If Shonda shop has
hours, when does it open
and when does it close? Right.
When do you flip that thing to
open?
At which point you have done no
work in the day before then?
And when does that sign flip
over to closed and then the shop
is closed?
[Applause]
So quiet quitting.
Next.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi. I'm a workaholic. [Laughing]
And my question
is, do you see this
work--workaholic going
into our personal life?
Workaholic? Like I get home and
I have to do these 25 different
things. I can't sit in front of
them. I'm sitting in front of
television. I'm going, Why
aren't you doing these 25 other
things? Do you see the two
lending?
>> Celeste Headlee:
Okay, so it's not you, it's us.
That's all of us.
Not just psychologists, but
sociologists have noticed that
this trend in so many different
ways, for example, the size of
our houses have grown
exponentially, meaning that
we're creating spaces to, we
can say inside more.
Our yards have shrunk.
Right? Think about
that for a moment,
how much that affects
our personal lives.
Yes, of course you feel that
way.
And it is no surprise and it
makes perfect sense that when
everything around you is
telling you that somebody who
has the idle hands are the
devil's playground, that you
earn your way, that people are
getting on Twitter in the
morning and writing Rise and
Grind. [Laughter]
Right? I mean, this idea that
you're some kind of wetstone,
you know, that,
come on, of-- that
has been drilled into you and it
takes a really long time to
break that.
It takes it-- just like any other
addiction.
And it's you know, originally I
was going to call the book "The
Cult of Efficiency", because I
truly do believe it's a cult and
you have to be deprogrammed.
So it takes a little
time. Sorry. Yes.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: You talk
a lot about like how capital
and jobs and like work
hours and how executives want
you to, like, work more.
I'm personally a student, and I
have I feel like the workaholic
a lot, but I don't have
necessarily the boss or the
like. I'm not getting paid to
be a student.
So, like, how--how does that
interact?
Like, is it just the the
culture, more than just like the
capital? Like, why
do students feel so
under pressure to work so hard?
>> Celeste Headlee: So
Gen Z has the highest levels
of perfectionism
ever recorded
of any generation. So much so
that we have a lot of documented
cases of people in that
generation being paralyzed by
unable to begin trying, doing
some working on something
because they're so afraid of
making a mistake.
Where does that come from?
It doesn't matter if you're
being paid for it.
Our entire society has become
focused on achievement, where
you're not supposed to start
baking unless you can have
sourdough breads that are
worthy of Instagram, right?
You come home and you're like,
Oh, I don't have a you know, I
don't have to pick up my kids
until three.
I can make some quick
curtains. [Laughter]
But this is the same that is
true for young people,
also. This is we are the filter
generation.
It's never good enough.
And so I absolutely encourage
young people to in every aspect
of your life and actually I am
going to swear, embrace and
lament paradigm of
the shitty first draft.
Just get it on paper, whatever
it is, just dump it out of
yourself that very first time
you try something.
Don't edit, don't filter, don't
Photoshop.
Just embrace that as a life
philosophy, because you don't
know what you're good at unless
you try it and you find that
you're good at it. But we find
this very high levels of--of
among students, of
perfectionism and defeatism and
cynicism and depression.
And we have our generations
that have come before you have
done that. We have created a
society in which.
What else are you to believe?
That's the values of the people
around you.
>> Celeste Headlee:
Next.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Hi.
You hinted at it
with your answer to that young
woman's question, but I'm curious.
Intergenerationally, you know,
family going.
If there's any correlation
about, you know, your father is
a workaholic, parents were
workaholics. If there's any--
>> Celeste Headlee: Yeah,
absolutely. Is it intergenerational?
Of course it is.
If that's the way--
if the values of your
parents are that--that
hard work makes you a good
person, then any child, when
they're quite young, is going
to want to earn the esteem of
their parents by working hard.
Right. I don't care if you're
good at it as long as
you do your best. Right?
I'm okay with you doing your
worst. Like I'm okay with that.
That's fine with me. Just--
you're a child.
But yes, you are going
to try to impress people
and earn your place
in people's affection.
I mean, think about how
ridiculous this is. That you're
supposed to work hard
enough to earn love.
Or value, like your value
depends on how well you work.
Do you know how many incredibly
famous people like Sophocles
just screwed around all day?
I mean that the current value,
especially between parent and
child, of focusing on how
you're using your time and
making sure, in fact, the
helicopter parent phenomenon is
a byproduct of this
very value system.
And that also we have the
evidence now to show how very
destructive that
is. So, yes. Next.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
So I have a question for you.
I loved what you said
about the conspiracy
between government,
religion and capitalism.
I'm a sociocultural
anthropologist, so we know there
are lots of societies
around the world
that are not
shackled by that trio.
What do you think it's going to
take for the US and constituents
in the US to break that trio of
shackles?
>> Celeste Headlee: It's going
to take a form of revolution.
I'm not talking about violence.
I'm talking about, at some
point,
you know, it's interesting
if you look at the,
um, major
causes of burnout.
If you look at the
W.H.O., and they have like
four major causes of
burnout, maybe five,
literally none of them can be
solved with self care.
Zero. Now, some things that you
can do as an individual can
help, and I document them in
the book.
But the other thing I say is
this only goes so far, and at
some point we as a society have
to stop shaming people and
calling it quiet quitting, and
say, absolutely, I support this
person's effort to establish
healthy boundaries.
And not only that, but I'm not
only going to say that I want
you to have work life balance,
but I'm not ever going to email
a coworker after hours.
It's going to take that.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:  What do you
think will trigger the societal change?
>> Celeste Headlee: I kind of feel
like the millennials and Gen Z
have had it. I feel like
they've had enough. [Applause]
And I--I have a lot of hope for
the younger generation because I
feel like they don't have any
tolerance for it.
And I say more power to them.
I mean, I will support
absolutely every single effort
to avoid burnout by reclaiming
your time.
Reclaim your time.
[Applause]
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi. Speaking of reclaiming
my time,
I quit my job, and Friday
was my last day.
>> Celeste Headlee:
Wow. Congratulations. [Applause]
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
That's a story for another time.
I actually wanted to ask a
similar question,
and you're leading into that.
The future of trends-- or what's
the future going to
look like, especially with
technology evolving so rapidly?
Automation coming into the
workforce, how are those-- that
going to mix in and where do
you see the trends going?
>> Celeste Headlee:
So I don't think either AI
technology or automation is
going to automatically reduce
the number of hours that we
work. And I put it to you this
way, imagine a bookkeeper in
1970, and it took that
bookkeeper, probably he, 40 hours
a week, 45 hours a week to get
his work done.
Right? That same bookkeeper can
get that work done now in
12 hours a week,
probably with technology.
And yet he's working now 50
hours a week.
Why? Why is he
working 50 hours a week?
Right. It's because people have
now added 14,000 meetings,
probably, and people are
sending useless, unnecessary
emails that they have to
respond to.
And we have inbox zero as some
kind of value.
That's why if--if we were all
about just getting your work
done and going home, we would
all be working very few hours
right now because we can get
our work done now in a very
short amount of time.
So I don't think automation--
that's always going to be
resistance. For some reason,
executives, en masse, still want
to manage workforce as though
it's 1850, as though how much
time you spend with your butt
in the office chair is how
valuable you are as an
employee. It's ridiculous.
So I think that force, that
habit to do things the way they
have always been done is so
strong.
It's going to take real conscious,
intentional change. Yeah.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi. My question is about
unlimited paid time off and how
that's becoming such a trend,
especially amongst it seems like
younger companies, and how
that's like fairly understood to
be bad policy, especially for
marginalized people, and how that
is impacting people across
different spectrums.
So I'm curious what your
thoughts are on that and how it
can be implemented like evenly.
>> Celeste Headlee: I actually
don't know the answer to that.
And the reason is, is because I
haven't seen the research
showing that that
disproportionately affects,
impacts marginalized people.
It doesn't surprise me because
it seems like everything
disproportionately impacts
marginalized people.
So unlimited paid time off is
kind of a weird concept, right?
The--I didn't do that.
I just said, look, you know,
with my producers, like on a
radio show, I would say this is
your salary regardless of how
many hours you work. When you're
done with your work, go home.
I don't really care to
see you. [Laughter]
So when you're finished, leave.
And here's the thing.
I had to force them to leave
the building.
I would literally have to go
out there and I'd be like, it's
4:00. Why are you here?
Get up and get out.
I would literally have to force
them to leave the building.
That's how powerful this
impulse is, to prove to me, even
though I'm literally telling
them I don't value your butt in
the chair, they still feel like
they're proving their worth to
me by working long hours.
So I don't actually
know the answer to that,
though I'm going to look it up.
But unlimited paid time off
should just be go home when
you're done. [Applause] Hello.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi. Um, well, it's really nice
to hear the things
that you're saying.
I have a little question,
so I'm a research
assistant. I'm 34.
And, you know, research is--we
work all the time, and it's, uh--
>> Celeste Headlee: Because when's
research done? When is that job done?
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Exactly. Uh, it's, actually
like, a really
established path.
And, you know, it's like I'm a
research assistant.
I need to go to grad school, I
need to do a PhD, I need to do a
ton of things before I kind of
became someone in the industry.
And so sometimes I get the
feeling that I'm behind all the
things, especially when I'm
resting.
Like maybe I should be writing
my own ideas, my own research
ideas, my own, like advancing
work and everything.
Because most research people
have their research projects for
work, but also our own research
projects.
like you're working all
the time.
And since I still feel that I
have this long way to go, I
don't know what to do with--with
that feeling, you know what,
what would you recommend?
>> Celeste Headlee:
So there's two things here.
One is that you're coming up
against a reality, which is that
regardless of what I
would like the world to
look like, that's not
the world we're living in.
We're still living in a society
in which working those long
hours is what people
demand of you.
I went to my boss at one point
in time and said, we need more
people. My my team is working
15, 16 hours a day.
And she said, I did,
too. That's how you--
that's how
you earn your place.
And I was like, hm. I'm not there
anymore.
But that is--that is the current
state of mind, especially among
the executive class, and,
obviously, among many academics.
So you're working against this
reality in which, yes, people do
expect you to work that hard to
earn your place.
And that's. Sadly, at this
point, what you're going to
have to do. On the other
hand, this thing that
you're talking about of
this voice in your head.
There's a couple of things I
want to tell you about here.
That's a delusion.
That voice in your head.
And it's preventing you from
actually being productive
because we know that when you
are.
Does that mean 15 left?
Thank you. So it's preventing
you from being productive.
It's actually preventing you
from being innovative. In order
for you to actually have the
kind of ideas and make the new
surprising neural connections
that you need to be a great
research assistant.
You need to be rested,
but you have been
inculcated into this idea that
you're wasting time when you're
resting. This is one of the
reasons why the book is full of
research, because I found it
takes that much research to
convince people. It's kind of
like, you know, those 3D
pictures where you stare at
them forever and then eventually
you see the picture and then
you can't unsee it.
I'm asking everybody
to take the red pill,
[Laughter] and once you see it,
you can't unsee it, but it
takes a little while to turn
that off. So I'm going to--the
advice I'm going to give you is
coming straight from the best
knowledge that we have in
psychology and sociology, which
is that
the--the--the quality that is
going to make you the most
resilient is not self-esteem.
It's self compassion.
And when you hear that voice in
your head, I want you to give
that voice a name, because that
voice is not your friend.
That voice is a critical,
judgmental
person. And I want you to imagine
in your mind, doesn't matter
if it's a real person, just
imagine your mind the most
nurturing and kind person
you've ever known.
Right? And when that voice
starts criticizing you for
resting, I want you to let this
other person respond to them.
Because this is your best
friend, right?
And if it were your best
friend, that was like, I can't
rest right now. I'm
wasting my time.
I'm a waste. I
have so far to go.
What are you
doing? You're a failure.
What would you say
to your best friend?
You'd say you're tired.
Sit down, watch Parks
and Rec. Eat some popcorn.
Right. That's what you'd say to
your best friend.
So I want you to let that best
friend respond to them.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Thank you.
>> Celeste Headlee:
You're welcome. [Applause]
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: So you've
been talking a lot about, like,
salary and office workers. What
would you say to somebody who--
because I'm a nurse, so obviously
I have to work 12 hours.
And sometimes it's three
days a week, hopefully because
I'm a new nurse. So hopefully
it'll stay three days for a while.
But what would you say to
medical workers who actually
have to take care of their
patients because we are taking
care of other people, so.
>> Celeste Headlee:
So a couple of things.
The American view of how many
hours a medical worker is going
to work is completely dysfunctional
and it's leading to mistakes.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Oh, yeah.
>> Celeste Headlee: We have
really good, solid research,
and I include at least
a couple of them,
including one at
a large hospital in
Sahlgrenska in which they had
an orthopedic unit that was so
overwhelmed that they-- people--
patients had to wait months to
get surgery, and they brought in
a research team and they said, I
wonder what if we
cut down everybody's
hours down to a
six hour shift a day?
Yeah. [Laughter]
And they, they had
hired all these
people to fill in.
They assumed they were going to
need people to--to--to fill in
those hours and make sure
everything got done.
But in fact, that unit became
so much more productive that
without bringing in extra
workers, they brought that wait
time down to like ten days.
So that is not the world you're
living in.
But I would say this. If you
have to work 12 hour shifts,
then you need to be extremely
protective of the rest of your
time. You need to start
curating your phone.
You need to make sure it's not
giving you notifications unless
it's absolutely necessary.
You need to turn away from the
screens as much as possible.
Not because I hate tech, but
because we know, neurologically
speaking, that--that's
incredibly stressful even when
you have a screen in your
peripheral vision, stressful to
your cognitive processes, you
need to make sure that, that time
when you are not at work is
rest. And you are not
responsible for what happens to
your patients when you're not
there.
And no amount of working or
checking your email inbox is
going to make them healthier or
prevent a downturn.
You're welcome.
And thank you. Hello.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: For
certain segment of the workforce,
hasn't the pandemic
actually pushed us
towards the vision
that you have, where we revert from--
I'm talking about, especially
if you're in the office, like an
office worker, for instance,
myself.
We are doing hybrid work now,
and like, I only have to be in
two days a week
in order to keep my
office so that they
don't hotel it out.
So two days a week, I go in. For
three days a week, I'm home and
I get more productive at home
because when there's no urgent
emails between things that are
more urgent, I can do the
laundry or the dishes or
whatever and have my entire
evening free, my weekend free
while if I was at work I would
be sitting there all day, 8
hours or seven and a half and,
you know, just making work for
myself, and then go home and have
to do all the housework and on
the weekends, the housework or
whatever. So I think that the
the pandemic is for a certain
segment of the workforce has
pushed us into what you're
saying. And I've told my
company, they've asked us to do
surveys, that I'm actually more
productive, a more productive
total person, not just a work
person, but like work at home
because of the kind of
structure I now have in my life.
>> Celeste Headlee: So that is
awesome that, that's working for you.
[Applause] I think
the pandemic has
made more and
more people aware of
how dysfunctional our habits leading
up to the pandemic have been.
[Applause] But we made
mostly the wrong choices in 2020,
so much so that at this point
most people.
Are not working from home.
They're living at work.
Here's the thing.
If you have insomnia, right?
The doctor will tell you do
nothing in your bed except
sleep. Don't check your phone,
don't read, don't eat.
You need to train your brain
that the bed is for sleep
because that's the way our
brains work, right?
We go into different
environments and your brain will
change its functioning,
in order to adapt.
Most people have now picked up
their laptops and take it with
them into the kitchen and into
the bathroom and into the
bedroom, obviously.
And then they're like, I need a
little sun.
I'm going to go do my work on
the front step.
And they have allowed work to
claim every part of their home.
And that means that their brain
is never not on alert.
Even if you're not aware of it,
you're on call 24 hours a day
because your brain now accepts
the home as a workplace.
That doesn't mean you can't work
remotely in a healthy way.
You absolutely can, and
I totally support remote or
hybrid work, but it means you
have to choose where in your
house is the place for work.
And when a call comes in, you
go into that spot.
You may feel like an idiot, but
that's what you have to do.
The call comes in, you say,
Hang on a moment.
Yes. And you don't pick up that
laptop and take it with you in
the bathroom, and
you don't take it to the
basement, and you don't
take it anywhere else.
There's a spot for work, and
that's the spot.
This is something that a New
Zealand think tank referred to
as polluted time, meaning that
our time has crossed the
boundaries both ways.
We--we are at work shopping for
boots on Zappos and buying
Christmas presents,
but we're also working.
We're at home, but the direction
has mostly gone this way.
And it is awesome that
people are beginning to realize
that our work habits were
completely toxic.
But we have to be more--
we have to be
smarter, now, about
making sure that
we recover from this,
rather than just being
like, yay, they're "allowing me"
to work from home.
Yeah.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: I'm
asking this conscious that I'm a
cis white woman,
but I'm wondering if you
can talk a bit about
how diversity, especially
for black people and
black women in particular,
who I know there's the
whole idea that they have to
work twice as hard
to get half as much.
I'm wondering if you can
speak to that and how that
affects the reality of people
being able to do their work.
>> Celeste Headlee: So
regardless of how I look,
I am a black Jewish woman.
My grandfather was the dean of
African American composers.
And it's not just that there's
the idea that black women have
to work twice as hard. That's
just what the evidence says.
There's also some really good
evidence showing that black
women in general don't want to
go back to the office.
Why? Because when they go into
the office, they're subjected to
so many microaggressions that
the stress level just goes
through the roof. So to a
certain extent, remote work and
hybrid work is a
civil rights issue.
Until we can get ourselves
together and stop subjecting
people to that kind of
treatment in the office place,
their home is the most comfortable
and safe space for them.
So when we talk about
work hours, absolutely, we know
and it's not just--
there's a whole chapter
in the book that's about gender.
And the last line of that
chapter is "Lean out ladies,
because-- [Applause]
Because almost every aspect of work
shows that it's not just women--
For everything that I'm about
to tell you about gender, you
can just say it's worse for
black women.
And of course, it's worked
worse for almost most people of
color and people who are
differently abled as well.
Let's just group this all
together, those who are
disadvantaged in
one way or another.
But even in gender, men are
more likely to take lunches
outside the office. They're
more likely to take lunch
period. They're way less likely
to get non promotable work.
So women ended up having to do
much, much, much more work
because they have added on all
the non promotable work, the
stuff that does not have value when
they do their performance reviews.
This is
true of black people
as well. But here's
the other thing.
It's that when-- the people
who are most likely to object to
unfair and unjust treatment are
people of color and women,
they're also way more likely to
be punished for it.
The people who are least likely
to object to unfair treatment
are white dudes, and they are
also the most likely to be
rewarded for it.
So there's a really easy
solution here, right?
We just have to be aware of it.
And again, it's like we're
fighting against some really
tough forces. This is one of
the reasons why it's going to
take really concerted action
where we all say, you know what,
I don't want this treatment for
myself, and I don't want it for
you either. I don't want you
to be in this either. [Applause]
So let's make it just better
for everybody.
That's essentially what it's
going to take.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Good afternoon.
And I know that you've mentioned
through your talk, from
what I've heard, is that
because of shame that
we induce into people, we,
indoctrinate these destructive
narratives into their head that
we have to work 24-7.
As a sociologist, how do you
suggest that we encourage and
educate people to
have empathy for others?
Because I feel that having
empathy could be one of the
solutions to pushing back against
these destructive notions.
>> Celeste Headlee: Totally
agree. Although there is
a limit to empathy,
and I say that being as
someone who really pushes
empathy, I am a pusher of
empathy. On the other hand, we
tend to have the most empathy
for people who are
the most similar to us.
So empathy can actually make
you biased in some ways.
You won't feel empathy for
people who are most different.
And this is true
in this case also,
If you are a really hard
worker, and you've valued hard
work all your life, it might be
very, very difficult for you to
have empathy for someone that
you think is lazy.
So that's why I would--I
want to push compassion.
And, you know, it's
interesting. Let me put it to
you this way. I'm going to tell
you five words that I want you
guys all to remember
and try to use.
Imagine that you have a huge
pain in your knee, like you've
injured your knee somehow, but
it's not debilitating.
And you have-- it takes you like
three months to get an
appointment with
the specialist doctor.
And finally, you've been in
pain this whole time.
You finally-- the
appointment is coming up.
It's like two days away and you
get a call from his office
saying, we have to
cancel and reschedule.
And you're pissed,
right? This is unfair.
He's clearly not appreciating
the pain that you're in.
So a couple of weeks later, you
finally get in to see the doctor
and you're ready to give him a
piece of your mind.
And he says, You know what?
Thank you so much for
rescheduling. The earthquake in
Haiti happened, and I rushed
over there to help with the the
survivors that they were pulling
out and I was helping in the
children's hospital.
[Laughter]
Right. Where does your anger
go? So this is when we talk
about having empathy for
others. I want you to remember
these five words. What
else could this mean?
When someone behaves a certain
way and we interpret it as them
being a jerk or lazy or
whatever it may be, what else
could be going on? What are the
other interpretations?
We have one minute
left, which is I'm
going to answer your
question super fast. Yes.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: So,
kids nowadays, in public school,
they have to work
six, seven hours per week.
>> Celeste Headlee: Yeah, You
mean in homework, after school.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: And then
that's not including homework.
And then they go home, They
have 2 hours of homework.
So that's 8 to 9 hours per day
that they're working.
What do you think about all of
this?
>> Celeste Headlee: Oh,
I think it's bad. [Laughing]
So here's the thing.
One of the things one of the
whole chapters is on
evolutionary biology and
psychology.
And one of the things I was
trying to answer was, is work an
inherent need? Does
Homo sapiens, does
our species need
to be to work, to
be healthy and experience
well-being?
And the answer is absolutely
not.
The number one need that we
have after food, shelter and
water is belonging. Community.
And in fact, one of our
inherent needs is play.
That's an inherent need.
Work isn't.
So tell that to your teachers.
[Applause]
And then send them
to me. [Laughter]
I have to wrap up. Thank
you all so very much.
[Applause]