>> Jonathan Capehart: Welcome,
everyone,
to the Library of Congress
National Book Festival,
and this session
with the author of Deaf Utopia,
a memoir and a Love Letter
to a Way of Life,
Nyle DiMarco, who is
joined by his interpreter,
Gray Van Pelt.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Hello, hello.
Thank you so much
for coming today.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Nyle,
I can't wait to have
this conversation with you
because your book truly
is a love letter from
its very first paragraphs,
but it's also an education
on a life so many
don't know or didn't
realize existed.
My name is Jonathan
Capehart,
associate editor at
The Washington Post,
anchor of the Sunday Show
with Jonathan Capehart
on MSNBC and an analyst
for PBS NewsHour.
Well, thank you.
[laughs]
We will have a Q and A during the
last 15 minutes or so
of our conversation.
So start thinking about what
you want to ask right now.
And don't forget that
Nyle's book signing
is from four until five.
So, Nyle, real talk.
From the opening pages,
you open my eyes and fill
the void of understanding.
I didn't realize I had about
being deaf and deaf culture.
Was that your goal?
>> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely,
absolutely.
I think really, first
and foremost,
I want people, when
they're reading my book
who are full of questions to
greet it with their curiosities.
I want to, first of all,
open people's minds
to the fact that we
have a culture
and we have a community
and that we have a language,
but that our community
is incredible.
I mean, those really are
the three main things.
I think one of the biggest
misconceptions out there
is really that deaf people
don't have a culture.
And so I wanted to change
that mindset first.
I wanted to open people's
eyes and really invite them
to fall into the book.
>> Jonathan Capehart: All right,
and language and culture
I want to get to in this
conversation a little bit later,
but talk about that title,
“Deaf Utopia”.
what were you trying to
immediately convey
to the reader?
>> Nyle DiMarco: Well, it really
starts with a bit of time.
It took me months
and months and months
to figure out the title
of the book.
It's got to be the
most difficult part
about writing a book.
I mean, deciding what's going to
go on the front is a
really big task.
But I worked with a ghostwriter
who's an incredible
friend of mine,
Bobby Siebert,
and in the process
of writing and thinking about
what we wanted to convey,
I realized that I wanted to add
some sort of fun undertones,
but also keep it a
bit on the nose.
Now, Utopia is one of my
favorite words because
it gives me an opportunity to
play with juxtaposition.
So many hearing people
out there greet
the term deaf with pity.
They want to be sensitive
to people's hardships.
And so I wanted an audience
that largely sees deafness
as a negative, right, to also
have a positive within
that juxtaposition of
“Deaf Utopia”.
While we're often seen
as being broken
or handicapped or
lacking hearing ability.
This gave me an opportunity
to reclaim that title,
to make it positive,
but also to make it mine.
And Utopia always has a
positive connotation, right?
So putting that negative
and a positive together,
I think really bends the reader
and I think really bends
the mind of people
who might see it on a shelf.
I think it really
piques curiosity.
And with those two simple words,
we came with a title that
really reflects what it means
to come from a
fourth-generation deaf family.
It reflects my childhood
and my upbringing
because it really was utopian.
And I always try to use that
in comparing my life
with, say, a hearing person.
You grew up with hearing people,
right, with your parents.
So being born to deaf parents
is a deaf person.
Our lives were exactly the same.
I didn't have language
barriers in the home, right?
So it gave me a really
great opportunity
to frame it that way.
>> Jonathan Capehart: One of
the things and you got
to this in the answer
to that question,
one of the things
I love about your book
is how you bring
the reader into deaf culture.
You give us its history and
the evolution
of how you communicate.
Did you decide to write your
book that way
because deep down,
you're a teacher.
I mean, you were planning
on becoming a teacher
before the whole modeling
thing happened.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely
 I was --
I mean, by first, then, yes
it was absolutely to teach math.
But my life absolutely
took a 180.
I mean, but I'm still teaching.
If you look at my career now,
this is just a bigger
classroom, right?
So, yeah.
And really, I think that in the
process of figuring out
sort of how I wanted to
structure the writing
and figuring out what my
memoir would actually look like,
I did a lot of reading
of other memoirs.
The biggest one that
stuck out to me was
Trevor Noah is Born
a Crime,
which highlights his experience
growing up in apartheid.
Now his ability to be able to
pull the history of Africa
through the apartheid and be
able to weave that into stories
of his parents and
his grandparents
as well as his own
lived experience,
was really touching to me
and really inspiring to me.
I wanted to structure
, it that way,
essentially to emulate
a similar experience
of deaf culture, of
discrimination and oppression
that my family had
experienced and made
a very large impact on who
I am as somebody
who is fourth generation
in a deaf family.
I wanted to tell history
not only my experience,
but I also wanted to honor
my parents’ experience
and my grandparents
experience along
with the larger community
as a whole.
And it just made for a
really good story.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Okay.
I'm going to jump ahead.
Since you talked about your
parents and your grandparents,
you mentioned before you are
fourth generation deaf family,
although now there are
five generations because
you now have I think it's
a little nephew, right?
>> Nyle DiMarco: Yes,
>> Jonathan Capehart: The nephew
is seven months old.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Yes, yep
seven months.
His name is Brooklyn.
And funny enough, actually,
so if you remember
from my own book,
if any of you read it that I had
talked about the experience
of being in a labor room with
my mom and having
the doctor inform
her essentially
that I had failed
the hearing test.
And my mother
was very excited.
My dad coming from
a hearing family,
had a lot to really unpack with
his own sad reaction to it.
But the doctor was really
confused as to why
my family would be celebrating
the fact that I was born deaf.
But it shows what
a huge change, right?
I mean, I'm 33 years old,
so I do have to sort
of tell you my age.
But my nephew, Brooklyn,
when he was born,
shows such a huge
change because
the doctor came in and
informed the parents,
Congratulations,
your baby passed
the hearing test and they said,
does that mean that he's deaf?
And they were like,
wait, what?
He passed the hearing
test and they said,
Yeah, that's not a failure.
That's a pass, right?
It just shows, I think,
that doctors are becoming
more culturally aware, right?
They're starting to understand
what deaf families want
and what deaf families are
able to do and really be.
So I think it shows how much
the mindset of hearing people
have changed over the last
few decades, let's hope.
>> Jonathan Capehart: And I
love that story
in the book,
because for me it was
a learning experience,
an educational experience
to read about your parents’
reaction with the thumbs up
and being very happy that you
and your twin brother Niko,
were both deaf.
But also, the reaction of the
doctor who you say frowned
at your parents’ reaction after
he delivered the news.
And it stuck out at me not only
because of what it taught me,
but it stuck out to me because
that scene seems to be as
indelible as it is emblematic
of how the deaf
community is viewed.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely,
absolutely.
I think the world is really
built for hearing people.
There's no denying that.
But the perception is so often
that deafness is a negative
within a larger hearing society.
And most of the time,
it's not their fault.
It's a lack of awareness, right.
We need a lot more media
attention and we need more
positive framing of deaf people
and our experiences.
That's what I'm doing in
TV and film.
I mean, if you look at the
history of TV and film,
it is historically been negative
and reflective of struggles,
which is so reflective of what
hearing people have often
associated with us, but again
media is the number
one real driver of what
people think
and where people's mindsets
are established certainly
in marginalizing communities
and that's what we're
trying to shift.
It's one of the biggest
reasons really
why I started working in
the entertainment industry,
because I feel that I can make
so much more of an impact there.
>> Jonathan Capehart: You
write in the book,
doctors often think of deafness
as a problem
that needs to be corrected
instead of a natural difference.
One beautiful dot
among m ny
on the brilliant spectrum
of human diversity,
one that was also the
crux of a culture,
language and community,
a way of life.
Now, in sharing the history
and story of the deaf community,
you aren't shy about
pointing out heroes
and the villains of deaf history.
And I want to start
with the villain.
You say, “Was a treacherous
man who espoused
many ideas that deeply
harmed my community.
That man was
Alexander Graham Bell.”
What were those ideas?
>> Nyle DiMarco: Well, it was,
in fact, AGB, you know.
In the school system,
how people teach about
Alexander Graham Bell is
often that he was wonderful,
He was an inventor,
he was a provider
and an innovator
of the telephone.
Wow, what a great man.
But first of all, he actually
stole the patent for that phone.
He didn't even come up with it.
Second of all, he was one
of the biggest leaders
in the eugenics movement, which
worked against my community.
So in seeing that, how he
looked at deaf people
and believe that they
shouldn't be able to marry,
I mean, he married
a deaf person,
but he believed that deaf
people shouldn't be able
to marry other deaf people.
He wanted to prevent
those marriages essentially
to eradicate a community, right.
He wanted to prevent
the spread of deafness,
and he didn't want anyone
to procreate deaf babies.
He was a leader that banned
the use of sign language
around the world and worked
at a conference
in Milan in 1880, essentially
to invite hearing educators
to take over the deaf
education system
in a very paternalistic
way and say,
we're not going to teach
sign language anymore.
And that caused
a very real decline
in the use of our language.
And it was a very sad
era for deaf people
and for deaf education.
For 100 years we were
teaching in deaf schools
and banning sign language.
And it prevented people
from being able to
achieve real career goals.
Deaf people were fired
from their jobs.
They weren't able to go out
and start their own businesses
because it changed the
view of deaf people
and those schools
started shrinking.
And that's all thanks
to Alexander Graham Bell.
And those thoughts are still
very pervasive in so much
of the structure of
education and
with how society really
sees us.
he was behind killing
a lot of bills that
were brought up at
a state level,
essentially to provide,
more language access.
We now work to provide more
language access at a state level
and providing that legislature,
the biggest villain is
the Alexander Graham
Bell organization.
They're actually against
that and providing
baby’s options essentially by
which to use.
I mean, you're looking at
hundreds of years of oppression
and we've really sort of
twisted  that over history.
And I want to bring
a much better--
it's a very deep conversation,
I will be honest with you.
But I would like to see a bigger
improvement away from him.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Well,
this is interesting.
It's 100 years of oppression,
but the impact of
Alexander Graham Bell
was still being felt  by you
when you were starting to
go to school in the nineties.
Which brings me
to the hero,
the undisputed hero
of Deaf Utopia,
and your personal hero is
here with us this afternoon.
Your mother
Donna DiMarco.
Please stand up,
Mrs. DiMarco.
[applause]
So, Nyle’s mother is here.
Nyle, why is she a hero?
And this gives you an
opportunity to talk about
the incredible work your mom
,did as a as a loving parent
to turn the tide of all the
things you just talked about
that Alexander
Graham Bell did.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely.
I think that's one of
the biggest advantages
for me of coming from
a generationally deaf family.
My mother, her parents,
my grandparents are deaf, right.
So you know my mom,
myself and her parents
all have the experience
of going to a deaf school.
My grandparents were
educated in an era
where sign language
was banned,
which had very real
effects, but they
were often physically beaten
in school for using it, right.
They had a very hard time
in school and were forced
to really assimilate in
an oral environment
that wasn't built for them
to thrive.
My mother had seen
sort of what had happened
from that and the repercussions.
And my mom experienced
that all the way until she got
to high school when
she was finally allowed
to use sign language on campus.
So it showed a shift over
time that I think my mom
was able to see, right.
And being from a deaf family,
she was able to see
the change and see how
much she could make
for the next generation.
I think that really ignited
a fire in her
for her own deaf kids,
but not just for her
own family,
but for kids nationwide,
which she's been working
to advocate for our
entire lives.
And she advocated for our
access to an incredible link,
to an incredible
education, right,
all the way from kindergarten.
I remember when I first got
into kindergarten,
my classmates couldn't
sign well, I was fluent.
My teacher couldn't sign
as well as I could and often
was lost when I would try
to answer a question
or ask a question, I wasn't
really able to participate
because I couldn't
understand them that well
and they couldn't really
understand me.
Any time that I would offer
a solution to something
on the board, they'd say,
now you're way too fast for me.
Slow down.
What is that? What, what, what?
And it was a huge waste
of my time, right?
And I mean, if you count
all those days
that I spent in a school
not learning,
you really start to see
the effects.
And my mom saw that
and she worked as a
proponent of change to force
the school board to change
things and to provide ASL
and to create
an improved education system.
it wasn't just that, but
my school also required the use
of hearing aids when
I was a kid.
Going into school, we weren't
allowed to participate in
lessons or lecture without
hearing aids, which is really
odd if you consider that I
went to a deaf school, right.
I imagine that the view at
the time was in order
to learn, you have to be
able to hear at a deaf school.
That's a very dangerous
idea that we're talking about.
My mom worked tirelessly
to advocate for that to change.
And so much of the work
that I was able to watch her do
is what I'm working to
emulate every day.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Okay.
Because you brought
up hearing aids,
I want to bring up ignorant
question number one
from the hearing world
that I have here,
and that is why--
>> Nyle DiMarco: No
dumb questions.
I'm here for it.
>> Jonathan Capehart: And this
I kept thinking about this.
Why were you forced to wear
hearing aids if you're deaf?
What's the purpose?
What is the point?
>> Nyle DiMarco: Right, right.
[laughs]
I mean, it's wild.
But in general, the view from
the hearing community or the
hearing world is that deaf
people need to be fixed, right,
and that we need to
assimilate that we need to be
like hearing people,
that we need
to belong in hearing culture.
So in going into the school,
essentially,
they were saying your
practice starts now
for you to learn how to be
a hearing person
and work in this society, right,
and to be able to
understand these words that for
me are almost
impossible, right.
They wanted me to be able
to speak like them,
which again, is almost
impossible.
I think so much of it is
really brainwashing
and very detrimental to
a child's development.
at the end of the day,  you're
looking at my own education
being taken away from me.
I'm being deprived of
education and from language.
That has very real
long-term effects on my ability
to succeed later in life.
And I think honestly,
that's the biggest reason
why they want us to assimilate.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Now,
you consider yourself
bilingual English,
but also ASL.
And I want you to talk
about why folks spend
so much time trying to
prevent American Sign language
from even being used
in the classroom?
>> Nyle DiMarco: Right.
I mean, again, that's
the thing I still don't get.
I still don't get it.
Like, what's wrong with it?
People really value sound.
Certainly, it’s a
larger currency, I think,
the ability to hear sound
and the ability to speak
I think is valued with 
higher currency
than the ability to sign,
which is funny in
my own experience.
I don't get it.
I don't understand why hearing
people are so radically
against ASL when it's such
an incredible language
and has so many benefits.
But yeah, I mean, I wish
I had a better answer,
but I just don't get it.
I think they're just
kind of clueless.
It's sheer cluelessness,
I guess.
>> Jonathan Capehart: So then
if you then--
for those in the hearing world,
once you once you wrap
your mind around the fact
that American Sign
language is a language,
then you are open
to understanding.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Right,
absolutely.
And that's one thing
that I will add.
Now, I'll tell you a story.
I remember I had
an interview
with the big Larry King, right.
And Larry King has interviewed
and met so many people
from so many different
walks of life
from all corners of
the world, right.
But I remember at
one point when
we were having a conversation,
I had to double check
him for a second
because he said ASL
is not a language.
Now, this was on an interview.
They did cut this out,
lucky for them.
But I said, wait, what
do you mean it's not a language?
And he said, well, it's gesture.
It's just gesture.
Like, what you're doing is
a system of gestures.
It's not actually a language.
And I said, wait, so you
think this entire 25 minutes
of our conversation I've
been miming, right?
And the interpreter is just
like guessing at it.
He's like, yeah, pretty much.
I was like, what?
So I tried to educate him
as ASL is absolutely a language.
It is a formally recognised
language in the US.
And I think, you know,
Larry King of all people, right,
really reflects on majority of
what Americans see
and think, right?
They see ASL and they
believe that it's a system
of gestures in order for us to
sort of get by in communication.
But in fact, our language
has a structure,
it has its own complexities
and its rules and syntax
and grammar.
So I think we just need a lot
more education on the topic.
>> Jonathan Capehart: But
it also has its own dialects.
And you write in your book
“Deaf Utopia”, that--
>> Nyle DiMarco: That's the
best part.
>> Jonathan Capehart: That
you can tell where
someone is from by
how they sign.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Yes,
yeah, absolutely.
So sign the sign for a
park, for example, right.
There's a few versions
in New York.
It's not like a car park,
right?
It's not to park your car,
but like a park that
you would go and play.
And for New York
it's this, right?
It's up here on the forehead.
But let's say in Texas, right,
for park, they sign park
like this, right.
So in New York, it's different
than obviously in Texas.
So if somebody
signs park, I'm like,
you're from Texas, right?
And they're like, yeah,
how do you know?
I'm like, because that's the
sign that you choose, right?
If you see enough dialects
in enough regions,
you can immediately tell if
they put on their forehead.
I'm like, hey,
it's a New Yorker.
It's kind of interesting
that way, right.
People from New York typically
sign much faster.
[laughs]
>> Jonathan Capehart: Shocker.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Yeah, shocker.
Yeah, we signed
much faster.
people from the
Midwest in Ohio,
I wouldn't say that
they signed fast,
but it's a comfortable
pace, right,
It's not so rapid,
but I'm from the city,
so I sign a little faster.
>> Jonathan Capehart: And then
what about sign language
from other countries?
You then have to learn a new--
you do; You have to learn
a whole new language,
let's say if you go to,
say, Sweden.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Right, right.
Completely different.
Especially Sweden,
they are so different.
Their ABCs almost don't
even make sense.
It bends my mind,
but I love it.
I can finger spell in the
Swedish ABCs fluently,
which is nice. I have
a lot of friends in Sweden,
which is really nice.
But we have over 300 different
 sign languages globally.
For example, in the UK
people speak English.
We also speak English,
but our sign language
is completely different.
British sign language
in and of itself
is a totally different animal
than what ours is,
but a lot of our ASL is actually
borrowed from France,
is a totally different animal
than what ours is,
but a lot of our ASL is actually
borrowed from France,
from LSF, and so we have
a mix of that.
We have a mix of
various signs like
Martha's Vineyard
Sign Language.
Back years ago, on the Island
they were using--
even the hearing people there
had acquired sign language
and they had developed
sort of their own community
with home signs, which is
really great if you look it up,
it's a very fascinating story.
But it's very interesting
and also kind of beautiful.
Sometimes, America will
borrow another country sign
because it makes a little
bit more sense
and we'll play it that way.
>> Jonathan Capehart: But
you also write about
the acronym is BASL,
Black American Sign Language.
Do I have that right?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yes, yes.
>> Jonathan Capehart: And
you note the importance
of Black American Sign Language
in the overall scheme of
American sign language.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Definitely
definitely.
So BASL is pretty
much ASL, but it's again
with Milan, 1880, like
I mentioned before,
the educational
conference in the banning
of American sign language.
In the United States, we
weren't allowed to sign anymore,
but the black community
had their own schools, right?
This is during segregation, and
so they were still practicing
the ASL, they were still
developing signs
and were evolving
their own language
while white deaf people had lost
so much of our language
because our schools were
being shut down and oralism
was heavily pushed in
the classroom.
And so ASL did have its
come back, don't get me wrong,
but BASL was still there and
was still growing and thriving
and really gave a saving
grace to ASL.
It's one of the biggest things
that I’m thankful for
from the black community
is really their ability
to provide us with
the language.
And there's so many
interesting things that come
from the ASL and so much
of it is born generationally
the way that I’m the
fourth generation of my family,
and we have our own signs.
It’s the same with BASL.
It survive generations and
I would say I understand,
I don't know, maybe like
half of it,
but it's a really
incredible language.
>> Jonathan Capehart: You
write in the book
that your grandfather had
his own made up sign language
from Italy within the family
so when friends would come over,
I guess at dinner and your
grandfather would sign,
your friends
would whisper to you,
which is signing 
under the table.
What did he say?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Exactly, exactly.
It's interesting, actually,
because my grandfather
was born in New York,
but my great grandparents
had emigrated from Italy
and they didn't speak English
well at all, but could
speak Italian.
And so my grandfather
being born deaf and having
a hearing family who
didn't know ASL,
they ended up with this mix
of some Italian gestures,
some Italian sign, home sign
that they had developed
and it eventually was
just passed through
my bloodline and
my family.
So a lot of times, people
don't understand my grandpa
and they're like, what
is he talking about?
Like how he uses his
elbow instead of his palm,
or he'll use an Italian
gesture,  which means like,
perfect or beautiful, and
my friends would be like,
I’ve never seen this before.
It's kind of fun.
>> Jonathan Capehart: I want
to sort of
fast forward a bit
in your memoir.
You write early in the book,
and I quote,
“Any time I meet
someone new,
I know the first fact that
registers in their heads
is that I’m deaf.”
Really?
[laughter]
Because, I mean, let's just
come on, let's be serious.
Everyone's laughing
because they know
what I’m getting at.
Come on, he’s a
handsome guy.
[laughter]
And I bring that up
because that runs counter
to how you got involved
with America’s Next Top Model.
I remember in an
interview you did,
I can't remember
who you told this to,
but you said in this interview
that America’s Next Top Model
sent you a message
on Instagram 
that basically said,
we think you're hot,
we want you to try out
and you thought it was a scam,
but they kept sliding
into your DMs.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Right,
right, yeah.
So now keep in mind, at that
time, Instagram was really new.
I mean, it was just really
rolling out the DM features
so to get a DM, I was like,
this is a scam for sure.
But they did.
They were persistent.
They reached out a few
times they said,
hey, we think you have
a really good look.
Why don't you try out
for the show?
And I was like, hey,
I’m deaf.
I’m not really sure if
your TV show
is really prepared for
something like that.
And the casting director  said,
oh, I didn't realize that.
But you should go ahead
and just audition anyway
and see what happens.
So at the time, I had just made
a career change, right?
I decided I wasn't going to
teach math anymore
and what I wanted to do
was actually work in
the PR department of
Gallaudet University.
I wanted to work to pull deaf
kids from all over the world
who didn't have the same
experience that I did
and have the same access,
whether that was because of
international barriers
or because of language barriers
or just experience
with the community,
I wanted to bring them to
Gallaudet and really help them
find their identity and
give them a place
where they could thrive
and where they could grow
and find success.
So having just made that
big career change,
when America’s Next Top Model
reached out to me,
I was starting this job.
I was like, oh, I mean, I
thought I would give it a shot.
It was a TV show, plus
it was reality TV.
And all they want is for
you to get on there
and cause some drama.
That's the whole point.
But I thought okay,
I’ll give it a shot
and I auditioned
and I thought,
I probably wouldn't
get through the process.
But two weeks later, they
said, Nyle, pack your bags.
You're coming to L.A.
We're going to fly you out.
You're going to stay
here for a month.
Are you ready to go?
And I was like okay.
And then which is funny
because at the same time,
by happenstance, another
TV opportunity reached out.
It was Switched At Birth
and they said, hey,
you should come shoot with us
and I thought, maybe
this is fate.
maybe I should give
this a shot and then
I talked to my mom
about it, obviously.
And my mom said,
go you're young.
Why not, go to California.
You can always go
back if it doesn't work out.
And I said, okay.
So after America’s Next
Top Model, I won.
>> Jonathan Capehart: But I
mean, yadda a yadda. I won.
[laughter]
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah,
I mean honestly,
it was hell, I will tell you.
America’s Next Top Model
was absolute hell.
I won and to be honest
with you,
I didn't think that I
was going to win.
I didn't think that I was going
to win because I thought
from a producer's perspective
having a deaf person
on the show is a win in
and of itself.
They did it, they get their
TV gold star
and they get really
great ratings.
So I just thought that a win
wasn't actually possible
but winning the whole thing
was a huge shock to me.
And then after that, I thought
I would just go back
and I would work in
the recruiting department.
I didn't really realize how
big the show was
because I never watched it
before I was on it.
So my platform exploded
and it just grew overnight.
And I realized there
was no turning around.
It was one way forward.
I was going to have to find a
way and be creative and shift
and adapt myself within
a larger industry
that I didn't know much
about at the time.
And the entertainment industry
I will tell you, is cutthroat.
So, I mean, I’m incredibly
grateful
for America’s Next Top Model
and the entire experience.
>> Jonathan Capehart: You
also won dancing with this--
you won America’s Next
Top Model in 2015.
Then you went on to win
dancing with the stars in 2016.
but I want to hang on to
America’s Next Top Model
because and this is why
I brought up Sweden.
And for those of you who
have not read the book,
I’m not going to tell you
where you'll find it,
but it's in there.
At the time that the episodes
of America’s Next Top Model
were finally running, you
had already done
a backpacking trip in Europe
you were in Sweden
at one point so far, so good,
I got this right.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yes.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Then,
you're with all these folks
and you thought that Sweden
was the country that had sort
of an open culture no clothing.
And so you ask around
and everyone's like,
no, no, no, that's Finland.
[applause]
But you're like, hey,
I’m going to do it anyway.
So you take off your swimsuit.
You're in the sun,
everyone else joins in.
The cops come and
bust everything up,
but what ended up happening
and this was fascinating,
the deaf community is so small
and I believe Facebook Messenger
was just getting going,
that anywhere you traveled
in the world,
people would see it.
Because someone put on
Facebook Messenger, I guess,
a video or a picture
and everywhere you went
in the world, people
would say, oh, you're
the American who got
naked in Sweden.
>> Nyle Dimacro: That is true.
>> Jonathan Capehart: And
this was happening
as new episodes of
America’s Next Top Model
were happening, so you were
dealing with it at the time,
and now, you're getting
this level of fame
and now everybody
is seeing this.
Talk about Sweden.
[laughter]
>> Nyle Dimacro: Good God.
In Sweden, being in Sweden,
it was my first time
going to Europe and I
was a solo backpacker
for three months, so
I was excited.
I had some friends from
Gallaudet University
who I was going to be
there visiting.
So we were drinking
and having a great time
at my friend's house
and in the backyard,
they have their own sauna,
which is pretty typical.
And so we went in and
we were sitting and drinking.
And I said, why don't we
have clothes on?
This is Sweden.
We should be naked and
I take my clothes off.
And they were like, that's
not this country.
And I’m like, my bad but
what if we did?
I mean, we all went to
college together, like,
let's do it let's have a
good time and have some fun.
And everyone was like,
yeah, okay.
So we ended up stripping in
the sauna, and running around
and drinking and swimming
and the cops did come.
And the next door neighbors
had called,
and they said you
were being too loud.
And mind you, we were
in rural Sweden.
This is a farm the house
is over here--
the other house
 is like without--
you can hardly see it,
but they're apparently
within earshot.
So we're all standing there
naked with these cops
and they've got the
flashlights out
and it's a whole
dramatic thing.
And we were like, oh we
put our clothes back on,
and try to keep it quiet.
But I had traveled essentially
for three full months,
sort of in a circle.
And at the end of the trip,
they had--
the deaf Olympics
were happening.
It's essentially like
the Olympics,
but it's our own version.
And everyone was like,
I know you.
You're the American guy
,that I know from Facebook
who got naked in Sweden.
So that's the widely
known fact.
I’m Nyle DiMarco, .and I’m also
the American naked guy
in Sweden and still hasn't died.
The deaf community has
so many incredible positives.
But if there's one negative,
it's that rumor spread
really quick.
Honestly, faster than wildfire.
>> Jonathan Capehart: And
as you write in the book,
the Facebook Messenger
has been an aid, if you will,
to the deaf community in
terms of communicating.
So as Twitter, but I just
put that out there.
In that chapter
where you talk--
I’m sorry, go ahead.
>> Nyle DiMarco: Oh,
yeah, I mean, definitely.
I think social media
especially Facebook,
has been a great aid
and a great ally
to the deaf community
in so many ways.
It offers us a new way
and new place
to collaborate certainly.
Of course, we do share
our culture,
but we're very spread
out and social media
helps us really strengthen
those ties and those bonds
in a really great way.
I mean I think what's
your question?
>> Jonathan Capehart: Well,
okay.
So that's the positive
aspect of social media.
But in the chapter where
you write about Sweden,
it's also you hearken back to
Sweden because of something
that was happening to you in
that moment and that was
where there was a deaf vlogger
, who took a picture of you,
superimposed the picture on
someone else,
or basically said
that you were on--
>> Nyle Dimacro: Right, yeah.
It's a little bit of a separate
time, but very close era, yeah.
So I was on my journey and
I was really exploring
my sexuality and finding
who I am.
And I was starting to realize
after college that maybe
I wasn't 100% straight,
but I didn't really know.
I was still exploring.
And there was this one blogger,
terrible person honestly,
I hate to say it, and I had
gone on a date.
It was a similar to Grindr.
It was Scruff but I was on
Grindr, obviously.
But that was a long time
ago it was a long time ago.
I tried it out just to
try it out.
But they essentially had
photoshopped face of mine
and put it on Scruff and told
everyone that Nyle was gay.
And rumours started spreading
and circulating really quickly,
and I never got the opportunity
to come out myself.
I never got the opportunity to
have that conversation,
that I’m queer and that moment
is very self-empowering
for members of my community.
And it's really a rebirth
and a starting of new.
And it was a lot of confusing
questions at the time.
I didn't identify as gay because
I was still exploring,
and I was  figuring it out.
But it became very well known
in the community
practically overnight.
And obviously, I never had the
opportunity to tell my mom
or to tell my family or to
tell my brothers.
None of it and that opportunity
was robbed.
I mean, my mom has
a ton of gay friends.
I know that she’s go to
studio 54,
like I know that my mom
would be excited
and would celebrate with me.
That was a moment that
I was looking for.
We'd be celebrating
over mimosas.
It'd be a great day but--
[laughs]
I mean, it's a huge bummer that,
that moment was taken.
And honestly, the silver lining
really is that it did help me
move through the process
and hit the gas pedal
a little bit more and put
myself out there.
And in that time in my life,
I did feel that I wanted
to maintain some kind of
semblance of privacy in my life.
I wanted that and I wanted
that balance.
The TV world, Hollywood in
general requires you to bear
a lot of your soul and risk it
all and give your pound
of flesh.
I mean, they want to twist words
and they want to get
your every moment and your
, every reaction.
So at the same time, I really
was working towards balance
and keeping privacy.
But I realized the importance
of being out, I did.
Sort of in that decision, and
in the sort of acceptance
of a term that would label
me a member of
the LGBTQ community,
I realized how many kids
and how many teens and
young adults out there
were looking for somebody like
me who have reached out
in that time and said, I'm
in the deaf community,
and I’ve never seen
somebody like me.
Somebody who's athletic,
somebody who was outgoing,
somebody who's a bit masculine,
who has come out and
taken on this label.
And my coming out,
I would hope, is a journey
that provides them some support.
Those rumors that happened,
I really hope would
support them.
I mean, that vlogger had
rumors going around
essentially that he was
closeted and he wasn't
in a place where he was
able to come out
and I think a lot of that
was internalized
and I became the
victim of that.
But times have changed
and I’ve moved on.
I’ve moved past it but I do
see the impact on kids,
which is one of the
really nice, I think,
sort of byproducts of it.
But yeah, I mean, I think you
can find a little bit
of balance now that I have
been out here for a while
that I’m very out and proud
I think you can find it.
And honestly, there's
nothing wrong with it
and I love that it gets better.
>> Jonathan Capehart: We've
got our conversation.
We've got less than five minutes
before we open it up to Q and A.
Think of your questions now
and be sure that
they are questions
and they are short.
So we can get to as many people
as possible in those speeches.
Ignorant question number two
from the hearing world.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Bring it on.
>> Jonathan Capehart: So I was-
I think I was at a--
yes, I was at
an apple store.
And the genius who
was helping me was deaf.
The interpreter was standing
right next to them.
So I have a protocol question.
Should one look at
the interpreter
or should one look at you?
And that'll explain the setup
we have here on the stage.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Right.
So it definitely is a question
that I get asked all the time,
and I certainly can understand
how it's easy
when you rely on sound to
look at the person speaking
instead of the person signing.
That makes sense.
But formally, you would
look at me.
It's proper etiquette
certainly.
That's actually why
we have things
set up the way that we do.
We try to structure all of
our conversations
so that instead of the
interpreter standing next to me,
and keeping an eye
line with them,
you're able to make eye
contact with me right now
and you don't have
to be uncomfortable.
It would be very uncomfortable
for you to crane your neck
and look at Gray right now,
which is intentional.
But yeah, this is great.
We're able to keep a really
intimate conversation.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Is there
another protocol question
that I should ask
that folks in the hearing world
should know when communicating
with someone in
the deaf community?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah,
definitely.
I think it's funny a lot
of hearing people will literally
tell the interpreter,
they'll say, tell him,
hey, tell him, tell.
And I’m like,
I’m standing right here.
Hi, that's his whole job.
So, yeah, I just always
say, like talk to me
like there's no
interpreter here.
Often people forget that
they're even in the room.
You don't have to say, tell
him or tell her or ask them.
But yeah, I mean,
I think that's--
I don't know.
It's definitely
it's a learning experience,
but maybe learning
ABCs ahead of time.
That's always helpful.
It makes it more fun
when you can spell.
>> Jonathan Capehart: All right.
we're going to go to Q and A.
I see there's a microphone there
and there's a microphone there.
Again, questions,
short questions, no speeches.
If you start speechifying,
then I’m going to have
to be rude and interrupt you
and I don't like doing it,
but I’ll do it.
So let's start here.
>> I don't know if you
remember me,
but I worked at Gallaudet
many years ago.
I’m going to come up,
if that's okay.
>> Nyle Dimacro: It’d be great.
that's a little hard to
see back there.
>> I don’t know.
Can you see me better?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Perfect
>> my name is Teresa,
and I actually taught you
years ago so good to see you.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Oh,
this is my former professor.
Hi.
>> so, first of all,
congratulations on the book.
I was so excited to watch
the progress and read it.
I read the opening
part, and then,
I noticed that you wrote it --
>> Nyle Dimacro: With bobby
>> I wrote it with Bobby and
I’m curious about your process,
the ghost-writing process.
You said that you signed and
then he watched those videos
and he translated into English,
and you went back and
forth with that process.
So as a writer myself,
I am often thinking
about when I’m writing an
English for a deaf audience,
so when I write in English
for a deaf audience,
often, I’m thinking about
if someone is reading
my words translated 
into English,
I want my English words
and my sentences
to be extraordinarily clear
if they're-- if the deaf people
are reading it with English
as a second language.
so I’m typically signing kind
of in very specific word order
to give clear
English translation.
So I’m curious about
your process
in the ghost-writing process
if you were thinking about
that when you were signing.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Sure, that's
a great question.
Also, great to see you again.
It's actually one of the
toughest professors I ever had,
ladies and gentlemen.
[laughter]
So on to the writing process.
We had to have that kind
of conversation obviously,
Bobby and I and it's funny,
we did come up with
a very different process
that was quite unexpected.
If you've ever played
with glossing,
which is a system essentially
of writing out in ASL structure,
it's not so much for a deaf
audience, but more for
a hearing audience to be
able to read and see
that there is
a varied structure
but also that it's different
than English.
I wanted people to see that
it's not broken English,
but that is how we signed.
We signed in
a different language
with different 
grammatical rules.
And to me, it was a really
fun way to invite an audience
to really be able to communicate
and feel like
they were in community
with us.
It was really fun and
I do hope that the way
that I structured my book allows
access to other writers
to really play around with
their own format and
with their own structures.
For me, I mean, my gloss
is still not perfect.
I certainly have more work
to do in the future.
But I hope that I’m
inspiring more writers
that I can then pull from
and glean really great stuff
and bring an audience
to fall into the community
and to sort of use that
in their own writing.
Yeah, that was pretty much it.
I know that might not
exactly answer your question,
but that's about as close
as I’ve got.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Thank you
for that question.
Question over here.
>> Hello my name is August.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Hey.
>> I recently started school
at Gallaudet university,
and I have a bunch of
friends here today.
>> Nyle Dimacro: That's awesome.
>> I was wondering if you
have any advice for us
>> Nyle Dimacro: Your first year
at Gallaudet?
>>  a freshman
absolutely.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Oh, very cool.
Oh, advice oh, man.
To be honest, that's great
honestly, not very friendly.
No, sorry, I couldn't
see your face.
Yeah, I would say that my advice
is just have fun at Gallaudet.
Honestly, like any 
university in general,
oh, here come
forward a little bit.
Yeah, that's right behind you.
Yeah, I don't want
that to hit you, careful.
But I remember in my own
experience in college,
it's a lot.
I was a double major.
I took a very heavy course
load before I graduated,
and I had a lot of worries
that I was making
the right decision.
And I wasn't sure if what
I wanted to do for
the next 30 years was
to teach math.
I definitely had a bit
of an existential crisis,
where I was having trouble
sleeping at night
but I think to know that
life always works out
is really helpful and
you can always
go back and find
something else
that you really enjoy.
You never know.
I mean, tastes change and
what's good for you can change.
I really love working in the
entertainment industry.
I love being a producer, 
but I also really enjoyed
studying math and really enjoyed
teaching math.
So I think you should
do what you really enjoy
in four years of course
study what you want.
But explore and make
new friends,
and just have a great time.
you'll learn so much
more about yourself.
But I think most importantly
honestly, have fun.
Just drink light beer.
[laughter]
>> Jonathan Capehart: Question
over here.
>> hi my name is Joe.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Oh,
sorry go ahead.
>> I’m Joe.
I am a language teacher.
I teach Spanish.
I have a passion for languages,
so I’ve recently decided
to teach myself ASL.
So I was just wondering
if you had any pointers
or pieces of advice
for a beginner,
somebody who's picking up
the language for the first time.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Oh,
great question.
Honestly, I think--
Do you know who
Lauren Ridloff is?
She's absolutely one
of my favorite people
she was Marvel's first
deaf superhero,
which is really great,
her character phenomenal,
but her career has really
just blown up.
And one of the things she told
me about her hearing friends
who ask her the same question,
she says, just hook up
with a deaf person,
start sleeping with them,
and you're going to
acquire ASL in half the time.
Honestly, and in all
seriousness,
that's probably the best way.
But first the ASL app is
really fantastic.
And then there's another
one called Lingvano,
that's fantastic, where you
can learn with both hands
in a really interactive way,
but you can also take ASL
classes here in DC.
There are tons taught by
, deaf people
and it's a fantastic way to pick
 up the language.
Or there's a huge deaf
community here as well.
You can show up to any
of our events.
You are absolutely welcome,
make some friends,
yeah, maybe meet
somebody at DC
is a perfect place
actually to be
picking up by yourself.
>> Jonathan Capehart: As
with any language,
just sleep with someone.
Share a pillow with them,
pillow talk
>> Nyle Dimacro: Right,
absolutely, I mean, exactly.
>> Jonathan Capehart: That’s
how I learned Italian.
Question here.
>> So I have a comment 
and a question.
The comment for the interviewer;
you mentioned that 
the ASL had a dialect.
The English language 
is the same way.
There is a southern twang
 the Texas drawl
is the same thing, no different.
My question I’m 
going to be in ASL.
>> So you've modeled, 
danced, written.
What's next?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Well, so I own
a production company now
and my production company
has one clear goal.
we want to better
the lives of deaf people,
but we want to empower
them to be able to
tell stories from
their own POV.
So for example,
Deaf You and Audible,
which are both on Netflix,
were projects of ours
and more recently, Audible,
the short documentary
that we produced
was nominated for an Oscar,
which was thrilling and
completely unexpected.
But really it was the beginning
and the paving of
a much longer road, which
is to be able
to bring deaf people to
Hollywood, to be able to act
and to be able to write and
to be able to produce.
We have a few different shows
happening right now
with places like Peacock and
with ABC and with Netflix.
My next one is we're
producing a limited series
about the Deaf President Now,
action that happened here
at Gallaudet University,
which gave rise to the passage
of the ADA in 1990.
So I think that's really my next
step is just producing, thanks.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Question
here.
>> I’m about to finish my
graduate degree in American--
in counseling,
in school counseling.
I actually have an
associate's in ASL,
but I haven't practiced,
so I’m really bad at it.
But my question is,
what advice would you give
to me being a hearing
person who possibly
will be interacting with
deaf students
in a public hearing school?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Whew,
that is a tough one
I’m not in the field,
so it's not my expertise
but I think knowing the
options that are available
and knowing what's
accessible to deaf people,
to be able to provide them
all of the options,
to be able to make their
own informed choice
I think you'd be surprised
at how many deaf kids
don't realize what's actually
available and out there,
out there for them.
So I think as a counselor
it's a big part of your job
to really research those
find those out
and always present those
on the table
and let them choose the path
that's really right for them.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Okay,
we've got a little less
than 10 minutes left, and
I really want to be able
to get to everyone who's
still standing in line.
So really short questions
right here, you are up.
>> Hi I have one comment 
and one question.
My name is Jonathan.
I’m a graduate student
at Gallaudet University.
And my comment is I grew up
in the hearing world
and have signed and
communicated
with hearing people
using speech
and I also speak
other languages,
but it's hard to identify tonal
language sometimes,
and it's hard to express
ideas.
But when once 
I learned sign language,
it was really easy for me to
be able to express myself
in American sign language
rather than
in spoken language.
So I am now
researching accessibility
for human centered computing
and you said that you
traveled different places.
I was wondering what was
the best advice
that people seen in regard
to accessibility
and really understanding
 each other
when you come from
different countries?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah,
I think using the
app Cardzilla is probably
the most accessible
for hearing people for me to
be able to communicate
with them because it has
speech to text,
which is really cool and I
can text back
and forth and it's big, 
bold print.
There's actually another app
where you can type
in the word
and find the
 ASL sign that matches.
So I mean what's
next for accessibility?
I have no idea but with what
we already have
on the table as tools,
I’m very excited, yeah.
I don't know that I would have
a really great answer
for that, to be honest with you.
I’d have
to think about it a little bit.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate
your well wishes.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Next
question right here.
Yup you're up.
>> Hi, my name is Chanel,
and I just have
a quick question for you.
So we see now
in the fashion world
just how much boundaries
are being changed
and pushed with models
such as
Winnie Harlow and
Ashley Graham.
How do you feel you winning
America’s Next Top Model
have really further pushed
the fashion boundaries
and what it really means
to be inclusive?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Oh yeah, to
be honest with you,
I think after
America’s Next Top Model,
I really thought things
would be easier.
I thought things would get 
easier in the modeling world,
but couldn't be more untrue
it was really hard, actually.
I wasn't booking huge jobs
and huge campaigns at all.
There was still so much more
work that I had to do
and so much more advocacy.
My agent was fantastic
but still,
I didn't find myself in a place
where companies
really knew exactly what to
do with me.
So I think to change an industry
those agencies
and those modeling reps
needed to have
deaf representation
from the inside.
They needed to be able to work
with clients across
the board who are deaf
and hearing.
I think really change happens
certainly inside.
It doesn't happen out front just
on the camera.
It happens every day
in the office
and the conversations
that they have.
But honestly,
I’m really happy to see
that work being done
and I wish those people
the best in that industry.
I want to see that grow and
I want to see the change.
I mean, there has been
a change more widely
for disabled people
disabled people, yes.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Thank you.
The timekeeper tells me
we've got five minutes left
and we have to end on time
so next question.
>> I’ll be quick, I promise.
My name is Cameron.
I’m from Northern Virginia,
and I’m hard of hearing.
So the career of yourself
and other deaf actors
has been super
meaningful to me in terms
of getting my disability
normalized so that
I can come to self-acceptance.
But I’m curious about
your experience
on the other side of
that equation
as a person giving
representation
and giving normalization.
How does that feel for you?
>> Jonathan Capehart: Great question
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah,
very euphoric euphorically.
Now, definitely feels
like the right time,
hearing people are curious
about sign language
and they're curious about
the nuances
of the deaf experience, the
types of deaf people out there.
That's a really exciting
time to be alive.
I think the future
is very bright,
but for right now, I want to
challenge Hollywood.
If you want to invest
in deaf stories,
you have to invest in
 deaf people first.
you have to hire them
 into writers’ rooms
and as producers 
and as creators.
That part is still very much
lacking, so we have
a lot of work to do sort of
behind the curtain, if you will.
Obviously, I’m doing my
part through my own TV
and film shows where
I do hire those people.
Like with Deaf You, we did
something groundbreaking
where we had a ratio of 50% deaf
and 50% hearing
behind the camera.
That was the first time
 in history
that had been done in
entertainment was groundbreaking.
But if Hollywood wants to see
more deaf stories,
they need to invest on a deeper 
level into our people.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Thank you
Next question.
>> I’ll be very brief.
So a controversial topic,
cochlear implants.
What do you think is the
role of cochlear implants
in the deaf community
if there is one?
>> Nyle Dimacro: Cochlear
 implants,
Certainly, are still a
very controversial topic.
I will agree with you there.
Our community doesn't--
I don't think, have a
correct answer for it
but my personal view is
I think the value
that we place on
those conversations
should be placed on language
access first and foremost,
it's key.
I think what we need
to talk about
is how many kids are arriving
to the age of five
without a foundation
and language
and how they're not being
set up for success.
I think we need to provide
actual benchmarks
and actual systems
that will prevent
those losses and prevent
the language deprivation.
Cochlear implants are welcome
to stay controversial.
I want to focus on language.
That's a really tough
answer, though.
>> Jonathan Capehart: Oh,
my clock says
three minutes left.
The timekeeper
says two minutes left, go.
>> Hi my name is Mary
and I am a writer.
And I have a character
who is--
Hilariously, I didn't know
a whole lot about you
before coming into this panel.
And my character is
a gay deaf man who's--
I know this is quite
exciting for me.
>> Nyle Dimacro: But I can
translate that
>> but I was curious about
little tidbits of things
from the deaf culture
that are very common
and very normalized among
the deaf community
that seem very normal
but then anybody
who like-- any hearing people,
 kind of find them
very odd or very unusual like
 those little things.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah, 
definitely, definitely, yeah.
There's a lot of those,
I would say like what
we were talking about
before where deaf people
celebrate the birth
of a deaf baby,
many people look at that
as not normal at all.
I would say, yeah what else?
I would say culturally
and within our community,
I think we're looked
at as not normal
we're looked at this
sort of precious group
but we actually have
a lot of incredible identities
and a lot of diversity
and we don't need
to be fixed as hearing
people often assume
>> Thank you so much
>> Jonathan Capehart: You
should read the book.
>> I know I need to know now.
>> Jonathan Capehart: You'll
get all the information.
We have less than a minute left.
and I want to get this
last question in real fast.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Yes, 
we can do it.
>>  Yes, I’ll be quick.
I love queer as folk and
was super psyched
to see that you were
part of the reboot.
I would love to know what
your experience briefly
was like on the show.
>> Nyle Dimacro: Fantastic.
It was an
awesome experience.
I saw so many other
disabilities on set with me,
which is great, right,
more than just deafness,
there were people with CP,
they're wheelchair users.
So many different types
of disability represented
and I think how queer
as folk has really evolved
from its first
 iteration up till now.
And this reboot is
so reflective of the work
that we're doing in
the industry but especially
within the space of the
LGBTQ community,
I’m really thrilled.
I hope it gets picked
up for a season two.
I want to go back.
>> Me too. So good, thank you.
>> Jonathan Capehart: The
name of the book is
“Deaf Utopia, a memoir And
a Love Letter To a way of life.”
first and foremost,
Donna DiMarco,
thank you for bringing us,
Nyle DiMarco.
Thank you very much
for being here.
[applause]