>> Linda Villarosa: I am Linda Villarosa. I am a contributing writer with the New York Times Magazine, where I cover race, health and inequality. And I'm the author of this book Under the Skin, which is about medical inequality and race. But we are here today, and I am so excited to talk to Dolen Perkins-Valdez about her new book, Take My Hand [Applause] I'm going to tell you a little about her. Then I'm going to say some super embarrassing things for her because I'm going to go on and on about her wonderfulness. Then she will read from her new book, and then we'll engage in a conversation, and then we'll open it up to you to ask questions. Okay. Dolen Perkins- Valdez is the author of the New York Times bestseller Wench and Bomb. She has written introductions to a special edition of Solomon Northup’s 12 Years a Slave, as well as Elizabeth Keckley’s Behind the Scenes or 30 Years a Slave and Four Years in the White House. She is the current chair of the board of the PEN Faulkner Foundation and an associate professor in the Literature Department at American University in Washington, D.C.. I asked to be on stage with her today because first, I love her book Wench, her first novel. [Applause] I was one of those people who was the one woman publicity machine, also the one woman buyer. Because I bought so many copies for my friends and family. I'm excited to talk about her new book, which is about the Relf Sisters, who in 1973, I mean, it's inspired by their story. In 1973, they were sterilized at ages 12 and 14 without their knowledge and without their parents knowledge or written consent, informed consent. And I wrote about them in my own book and in The New York Times magazine in a story about eugenics. And our paths crossed because we were doing the same research. While she was researching a fictionalized version and the people behind the scenes and who were involved, I was doing the sort of journalistic version, and we are so happy that our paths and our work have crossed. So thank you for being here. Thank you for being in conversation with me. And I cannot wait to hear you read and talk about your wonderful book. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Thank you, Linda, for the introduction. I do want to say really quickly that I have lived in D.C. for, I don't know, 20 years. And this is my first time at the National Book Festival. So I really want to thank Dr. Carla Hayden, the newest librarian of Congress, [Applause] who, as you know, is the first African-American woman librarian. And I really believe I'm here because of her. I don't know if she had anything personally to do with it, but I know in my heart of hearts when she was appointed, that I would somehow be here. So thank you, Dr. Hayden, and thank you, Linda, It's amazing to be your sister in this journey. And yes, we were both on the same path and didn't know it. And I feel that fate has sort of brought us together. So I was really looking forward to this conversation. This is my first time meeting Linda, even though-- >> Linda Villarosa: we're color coordinated. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Yeah, we are. We we wanted to be bright and colorful today. And it's just a pleasure to be sitting here with you. >> Linda Villarosa: Same. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: So where shall we begin? >> Linda Villarosa: Please do your reading. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Okay. So, as Linda mentioned, this story, Take My Hand, is inspired by I like to say, inspired by not based upon the story of the Relf sisters who, as she mentioned, were real life girls in Montgomery, Alabama, in 1973, living with their family when this horrible thing happened to them. When I first learned about this story, I researched a little bit more into it. I dug a little deeper, And I was really surprised that many people didn't know about what happened to them, even though at the time that it happened, it was a major event. It was a major national news story. And I saw newspaper after newspaper carrying this story from The New York Times to The Washington Post to the Chicago Tribune to Jet Magazine. You know, everybody was talking about what had happened to this family, and then the history just disappeared. I wanted to figure out my entry into the story. And so I began to wonder about the nurses who worked at that clinic. So I'm going to read a little passage from the point of view of the nurse who tells the story. Civil Townsend is her name, the first time that she does this home visit to meet the girls. So I'll just read for a few minutes and then we'll talk. When I drove up, at first I assumed that the Williams sisters lived in the neat brick rambler with the two pickup trucks parked out front. A thick cloud of dust swirled around my mama's little car, and when it cleared, I spied two little white boys standing on the house porch. I rolled my window all the way down, hoping they'd see my uniform. I'm looking for the Williams family? I was positive I had read the number on the mailbox correctly. One of them pointed behind the house, and I understood. I wound the car around the pickups. Following the scant outline of tire tracks, the Pinto pushed through the ruts, bouncing so hard, I was afraid I'd hit my head on the roof. I prayed I wouldn't get stuck. The last thing I wanted was to have to walk back down to that house and ask those boys to go get their daddy. Fortunately, it hadn't rained in a while and the ground was dry. The trees cleared and the land swelled up into a hill. At the top sat a cabin. The car sputtered, but I tapped the gas pedal and somehow made it to the top. Everything leveled out and the tire tracks disappeared into brush. Off to my left, I could see a wide field of green stalks. I didn't know a thing about farming, but anybody with eyes could tell that was wheat growing out there. Cows grazed in a lot beside the barn. A lone chicken peeked at me as it stepped through knee high grass. Up close, the structure was more of a wooden shanty than a cabin, and it looked tired as though a wind had blown it askew and it hadn't had the energy to right itself. A skinny black dog scratched his back in the dirt. In the rearview mirror, I could see my lips were dry. I got out of the car and stepped into a huddle of gnats. The air smelled of burning wood. Something told me these girls couldn't be in school. If they were, they didn't go every day. They should have been expecting me, but they didn't have a phone and I wasn't confident they even knew about our appointment. They had initially been assigned another nurse who quit the clinic the month before. I was there to pick up where she left off. A girl wearing grubby pants and an orange t shirt shaded her eyes with a hand. The back light of the sun darkened her face. How are you doing? I'm Civil Townsend from the family planning clinic. It didn't make sense for us to be out here in our uniforms, But Miss Seeger insisted. It was March chilly and I had left my sweater in the car. The wind reached my neck. I stepped up closer. Someone had tried to braid the girl's hair, but the roots were so matted with dirt that only the ends of the hair could be platted. I clutched the file under my arm and tried to remember what I read. Are you India? The dog rubbed against my leg and I fought an urge to push the animal off. It sidled away. I looked down and sure enough it had left a brown mark on my white pantyhose. She don't talk. I jumped. I hadn't seen the other girl standing inside the screen door. I remembered the contents of the file. The younger sister was mute. I had skimmed that detail, but it came back to me now. Oh, okay. And Civil Townsend. I'm the nurse sent to give y’all shots today. What happened to the other one? I don't know. I stuttered. the nurse’s leave-taking baffled me too. Maybe the demands of the job had been too much. Maybe she found something that paid more. Being out here on this farm wasn’t anybody's idea of a good time. Even so, there weren't government jobs just laying around, waiting to be picked up. Is your daddy home? No, ma'am. I blinked as I pieced together their story in my head. Mace Williams, father, 33, milked cows, till the land, did whatever the white man told him to do in exchange for this shanty and a pittance of money. Constance Williams, mother, deceased. Patricia Williams, grandmother, 62. In the distance, the inky outline of grazing cows flickered in the light. Your grandmamma here? Grandma. The nurse here. I tried to smile, but I wasn't sure if my expression passed for polite. I didn't know whether I should ask to come inside or if I should wait for the grandmother to come out. The older sister settled it. I remember now that her name was Erica. You can come in if you want. She opened the door for me. The screen pulled away from the edge of the wooden frame. Not much protection against the flies. It creaked on its hinges. I'm not sure if I said this before, but walking into that house changed my life. And yes, it changed theirs too. I walked right up in there with my file and bag of medicine, ready to save somebody. Little old me. Five foot five inches of know it all. [Applause] >> Linda Villarosa: What a pleasure to hear your words in your own voice after having read your book, to say, oh, that makes it even better. Can you talk about how you learned about the story of the Relf sisters and what was the thing that inspired you? Because writing a novel is hard and long and you're going to have to stick with it. What inspired you to choose their story? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Well, I’ve always felt a connection to Alabama because my daddy graduated from Tuskegee in the late 1960s. And, you know, I had grown up hearing about the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, and we had talked about, the voting rights march and a lot of things that had happened in Alabama during that time. But he never told me about these sisters. And so when I found out about it, I found out about it just reading a book, reading Dorothy Roberts’ Killing the Black Body. He didn't know about it. I asked him and he didn't know about it. And I didn't think of it as a book. I just thought, this is something that I didn't know about. And then I began to research. And the more I researched, just out of, I always start with my curiosity because I believe that, you know, a book has to be driven by a deep sense of questions, questioning. And the more I dug deeper and learned more about what happened to that family, I thought, this is a story that people need to know about. But then I thought, maybe somebody’s written a book and I just didn't know about it. So I looked it up and I, you know, I spent a little while just trying to see if there was a book out there about it and there wasn't. But it's the kind of thing that's really hidden in plain sight. Because if you Google the Relf sisters, it's all over the Internet, you know? But I still thought and often I think, well, maybe other people know about this and I'm just the only one that doesn't know. And so I began to ask around my smart friends, you know, professors, and they didn't know about it either. And then I I traveled down to Montgomery and I met with Joe Levin in 2017. >> Linda Villarosa: Joe Levin was the lawyer from the Southern Poverty Law Center that took the case on. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: That's right. >> Linda Villarosa: The real case. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: The real case and his memory of that moment was so sharp, he brought the case files out of storage. He said they had not been brought out of storage in 45 years. And I knew when I took that trip that I had to figure out a way to tell this story. >> Linda Villarosa: Who else did you interview? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: I just interviewed him and Jesse Bly. I did not interview the sisters because when I spoke with Mrs. Bly, you know, she told me that they were living together and she spoke with them regularly. And I felt I didn't want to disturb them because I didn't want to bring up this thing all over again that they spent a lifetime dealing with. And so I went back to my desk in D.C. and began to think, what story am I trying to tell? You know? And I didn't, In the early moments of drafting, I thought, well, maybe I'll make the lawyer black, you know, because I didn't want to wade into this white savior trope, you know. But then I realized that there was real history of black Jewish civil rights alliances that I did not want to step on, and that history was there and I wanted to honor it. And so I decided that there were certain things that I was going to keep, and that was one of them. So I didn't want to speak for Joe, I didn't want to speak for the sisters. But what I was really curious about was this newspaper article that I stumbled upon when they interviewed the nurse and the head nurse of the clinic, the supervising nurse, she said, Well, it must have been okay to sterilize the girls because all eight nurses who worked at the clinic were black. And I said, what? You know? And that was one of those moments where I'm just sitting at my desk trying to process that. And that was when I knew, like, that was my question. Who were those women? That was the question that I was going to seek to try to answer in the book. Hmm. >> Linda Villarosa: That's so fascinating. And you've done historically, historical fiction, both using people who, in this case, are still living and can tell part of the story. And also, as in Wench, where you were just using research. And what was the difference between the process each time? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Well, when the people are still living, it's a lot harder, isn’t it? Because, I didn't want to misrepresent. I really wanted, I wanted my characters to be inspired by these real people, but to also be people, characters of their own accord. So I had to make decisions about what I would change. And, you know, the first step to me in doing that is you have to step away and not over interview the people because you have to leave room for your imagination because you can really get overwhelmed by the real story. So I decided that, for example, I didn't know exactly what the younger sister’s disability was and I was going to keep it that way and make my own disability in the story. And so there were other sort of like fundamental changes that I tried to make that would fit, for example, the real court case that Joe Levin argued was here in Washington, DC in federal court. But I need it for my story. That court case to happen in Montgomery, federal district court. And I asked Joe, I said, could that trial have been in Montgomery? And he said, yes, but it was in DC. And I said, But could it have been in Montgomery? And he said, Yes. But it was in DC, you know, and I think, you know, that was a big deal for him to take that court case in D.C. as a young 30 year old lawyer. But it didn't work for my story, you know, because I needed everything to be in Montgomery, because that was where the heat of the story was. So I think it's harder. I don't know that I want to do it again where I'm dealing with real people, [...] but I try my best to represent everybody with love. And that's really, even the so-called villain, Mrs. Seeger, in the book, I try to portray her with love. >> Linda Villarosa: I think I noticed, just for clarification, Ms. Bly, in real life is the social worker that handled the case and I was really intrigued at the way, like I could see her in different characters. But also I have met the sisters and I was surprised at how well, having not met them you really had a complete realistic portrait of how they even talk and it was uncanny. So I, however you were channeling, just feeling it. You did a magnificent job with that. >> Dolen Perkins_Valdez: Thank you. I do think that, you know, one of my friends, a local writer, Eugenia Kim, once told the story that she was writing a story set in the village where her parents had grown up, which is now North Korea. And of course, she had never seen it. She had to just go on, you know, what her parents had told her. And then she somehow got access to these satellite images of the village, which was exactly the way she had imagined it in her mind. And so I do think there's a way in which the imagination can really take us to the real thing if we are quiet and still and listen. I know that sounds very woo woo, [Laughter] but I do think there's a way in which we can get there, even though I'm not really trying to capture the real people as much as I'm trying to capture the emotions, like, what it felt like to have been there at that moment, I'm really trying to capture that. And I remember Mrs. Bly told me that when she discovered that the girls have been sterilized, I don't know if she's heard the same phrase, this phrase that just hit me when she discovered that the girls had been sterilized. She said, Dolen, I just saw bulls behind my eyes. I just saw bulls, you know, which expressed like her rage and her anger. It was so visceral. And so in the book, my character, when she discovers it, she's blinded by her rage and has a car accident. And I'm not trying to spoil it too much for y'all who haven't read it, but, you know, I tried to channel that that anger and rage that Mrs. Bly said that she experienced and into what happens to Civil in that moment. >> Linda Villarosa: And what kind of research did you do on the place, so Montgomery, Alabama, in 1973 and actually also in 2016? So talk about, like, how you incorporated the place, which was really important. Also seat of civil rights, a lot of important stuff happened there. And how did you find out, you learn about that, and also put it in the book. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: I will say that place is one of the hardest things you can research as a historical fiction writer because you've got to get it right. You know, you've got to know the street names, you got to know the layout. So like in my previous book, you will find me in the maps room at the Library of Congress. When I did my second novel, I would say yay, Library of Congress Maps Room is awesome, you know? And I was like poring over maps of Chicago in the 1800s. They have these amazing large old maps. Some of them are hand-drawn. You know, it's an amazing room. But for this, I think, and I did go to Chicago, the contemporary Chicago, even though the book was set in 1800s, I think it's important to go to the place, for me, if I can, if I can like get some funding from somebody. [Laughs] >> Linda Villarosa: Hint, hint. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: I know, right? I go there and so I went to Montgomery, drove around, you know, you get a rental car, you drive around, you look at a map, you kind of look at what the contemporary city looks. But then you got to look at an old map because the city limits of Montgomery were different then than they are now. And so I went to look at an old map I found. I mean, in the book, they go to Kmart, the new Kmart in town. And I used to go to Kmart when I was little. And I remember like the arrival of Kmart was a big deal back then. It was big. They had food and they had little rides out front. And I found actual pictures of the Kmart that they go into that day. I found a picture of the actual Montgomery Family Planning Clinic. I spoke with a woman who had been a patient at that clinic. I also, you know, learned about, like the highway when it was built. It cut right through this black business district, like in a lot of cities. And that had affected Civil’s fathers business. So, you know, there's a lot that goes into, that y’all don't even see when you read the book that goes into the like getting the streets right. You know, I was visiting the Centennial Hill neighborhood. I talk to people who had grown up there, who were members of the prominent churches and members of that like black middle class that she was in. I needed to know, you know, what would have been realistic for that family, you know, and what would their house have looked like. And, you know, because I wanted them to have three cars, which is unheard of in the 1970s. And so I had to kind of like tease these things out. And, you know, it takes a lot to get the place right and I still make little mistakes that people will come up and say, you know, that street was actually one block West. You said East, it was West. And I'm like, okay. [Laughter] >> Linda Villarosa: And in, especially the character of Civil, how much of it is you, if any? [...] >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: It’s always me. [Laughter] No, seriously, I cannot write a protagonist that I don't feel some kind of [...] affinity with, and with Civil, I just channeled my own desire to do good and making missteps. And I thought about my own self at 22, 23 years old, and how I thought I could change the world. And then you get out here and you get slapped real quick and she gets a big slap. And so, yeah, it's always me. In fact, when my husband, who's here read the book, he's like, there was so much of you in here I always say, like, you want to know something about a writer, read their work, a bio won't tell you anything, but if you read their work, we're all in it. Our fingerprints are all in it. But with Civil I had to because she's a flawed character and readers don't have a lot of patience for flawed characters. So you're right, you're walking a very fine line. I mean, it can be a little thing that readers will turn on a character over. So I had to identify with her so that the reader also felt like, Oh, you know, I could have made the same error. You know, I would have probably done the same thing. [...] You know, she makes a lot of missteps. But I wanted the reader to kind of understand that her heart was in the right place, although it doesn't excuse some of the missteps that she made. >> Linda Villarosa: And what's been the reception like? How did the people in Montgomery like it or what did they say about it? And also, just in general. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: You know, this, I will say this. So my publisher did a fantastic job and the book came out, you know, and all of their work culminated in great first month. But things really picked up when Roe v Wade was overturned. And once Roe v Wade was overturned, I was inundated with requests for book clubs, with requests for, you know, speaking visits. And I think that the book, and I say this like I had no idea my book would come out two months before Roe v Wade was overturned. And it was the furthest thing from my mind, honestly, I, in my mind I thought, oh, 2023 will be the 50th anniversary of Roe v Wade. That's when my paperback comes out. You know, like I was thinking, I mean, I knew it would happen, somewhere deep down, but I think I was in denial maybe at how quickly it would happen. And it has really been a book that has centered discussions around women's bodily autonomy in a way that I did not anticipate. And I tell you, I have been zooming with book clubs all summer, all over the country, all over the world, because the book is come out in the UK and Australia and [...] people want to talk about this. Women want to talk about this. And I think when I say they want to talk about this, they really want to talk about what does it mean to have these local jurisdictions and acting legislation that will affect women's control over their bodies. And I think before this, women haven’t really you know, we've taken it for granted because most of our lifetime we've lived with Roe v Wade. But now just sort of, it has been sobering to think about how it will affect even those of us with resources. And I've been trying, with my book, to say, you know, I want you all to remember the most vulnerable members of our society who this affects. But I think what's been most interesting to me is how women with resources are realizing that they're affected, too. >> Linda Villarosa: That's right. We have 15 more minutes. And so I'd like to open it up for Q and A. So I'll ask one more kind of writery questio and then if you could come stand at either of these mics and get ready to get ready with your question. So let me ask you this. As writer to writer, it's especially hard to, you know, channel those creative juices when you have two children. As wonderful as I'm sure they are, where’d they go? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: I don’t know. Where are they? >> Linda Villarosa: Where are they? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: They left me. >> Linda Villarosa: They went to go find the YA [Laughter] Okay, anyway. Plus a job. You're a college professor at American University, and so how do you do that balance? Plus, you had historical research to do. So talk about the sort of balancing your life as a writer. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Oh, y’all, you know that's not easy, Linda. And I have terrible guilt. And, you know, I'm about to miss my 10th grader’s first day of school this week because I have to go to London for a book event. I missed my eight year old's birthday earlier this year. There's no easy answer to that for a working mom. You know, we just do the best we can and we [...] you know, we hope that the work one day I mean, my kids haven't read any of my work. All they know is I'm not home. So we hope that one day when they read the work, they'll know sort of the legacy, if there is one that's there, at least for them, you know. And I just don't think there's any easy answer. All of us have multiple responsibilities, whether it be elder care or children or what have you. So we do the best we can and love each other and hold on to each other. >> Linda Villarosa: And we savor your work. So you thank you for that. I have a question here, if you don't mind just saying your name and then asking your question. [Crash. Mic is knocked over] >> Linda Villarosa: Okay. That's all right. >> Margaret: My name is Margaret, I recently just earned a master's degree in social work. So the discussion of social work in this conversation is really interesting to me, and I really struck a chord when you said, I was terrified of the white savior trope. And I am terrified of accidentally living that tope. And it really strikes me that your super delicate in the research how you talk to people about traumatic events. So I was wondering if you had any advice for people in the helping professionals on how we can better follow your example. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Thank you. Thank you for that really excellent question. And for your work as a social worker. I think this book really speaks to a lot of nurses and social workers. So thank you. [...] I think one of the things I hope people get out of the book, and this was us talking about Civil and whether or not there was a part of me in her is that we just have to make sure to remind ourselves to be vigilant about our intentions, to understand how much power we have of, as workers in the lives of vulnerable people, and to also listen to them. And that's something Civil has to learn in the book. You know, at one point in the book, she just she wants to get the family a TV, you know, and she's imagining putting a TV in the corner. And they have never asked her for a TV. Mrs. Williams, does all Mrs. Williams want is a garden. And to do her crocheting and to cook, you know. And so... [...] why is she thinking about a TV, you know? And so I just think she has to learn how to listen to the family. And so, I mean, there's no easy answer. I mean, I teach and every time I walk into that classroom, I am really aware that I could harm someone with something I say because I have so much power as a professor. And so I try to be very, very mindful of that power. And so, yeah, that's the best thing we can do is to just be mindful of our power and listen. Thank you. >> Linda Villarosa: Thank you. [...] Please come ask questions. Look, what a opportunity here. Oh, good. Thank you. >> Barbara Davis: Hi, I'm Barbara Davis. I actually have a couple of questions. My book club just finished reading your book. We’re located in Connecticut. And I just thought, the person that recommended it, I just had to call her up and say I was so happy that she recommended this book because we all know something about sterilization. But I didn't know it to this extent. I just want to clarify some things. What were the name of the sisters? Could you spell that? You say Rel? >> Linda Villarosa: R e l f. >> Barbara Davis: Oh, okay. >> Linda Villarosa: Minnie Lee and Mary Alic Relf. >> Barbara Davis: And so they're still living today, and you talk to them, okay? Is Civil still living? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Civil was not a real person. >> Linda Villarosa: But Mrs. Bly is. >> Barbara Davis: Oh, okay. So. Okay. All right. That's part of your, your writing. Okay. So she's not a real. Wow, she seems very real. [Laughter] Oh, and I want to know your name the journalist. What is your name? >> Linda Villarosa: I'm Linda Villarosa. >> Barbara Davis: Villarosa? >> Linda Villarosa: Yes. So I'm the one, after you were worried about the sisters, I'm like, Oh, really? They're alive. I'm going. I'm going in. >> Barbara Davis: What's the name of the book you wrote, you said you wrote a book? >> Linda Villarosa: Mine's called Under the Skin. It's about race, health and inequality. >> Barbara Davis: Okay. Thank you. >> Linda Villarosa: Thank you for that. Thank you for your question. yeah, I appreciate it. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Thank you. >> Morgan: Hi. My name is Morgan and I work in health care. And so my question is for the both of you. In terms of working towards health equity and having a conversation with others who may not understand the experience of women of color, how can I present that and really advocate for that in a way where it is effective and there could be some type of change? And I know that this is a hard question and it will take long, but I guess short term. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: You know, I will say that a woman who is a doctor, who is attending at the University of Virginia Hospital just reached out to me. She has all of her residents reading my novel at the UVA Hospital. And when she put the word out, the entire department decided to read it together. So, if you can, start a reading club and have them read Linda's book, too, and start a conversation, because it all begins with a conversation, right? You don't want to be doing this one on one. That's too much pressure on you. You know, you don't want to be out here educating people. That's not your job. >> Linda Villarosa: That's our job. [Laughter] >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: So I would say start a reading group and [...] and suggest books and, I don't know, did you have other? >> Linda Villarosa: Well, I was going to say one thing is wonderful about what your book does is it examines when there was harm caused to the sisters, both fictional and in real life, and for you to explore the person who did the harm and was not necessarily knowing, it’s, you know, it was it kind of unfolded. It's like, oh, this terrible thing. So for you to look at the point of view of the health care providers is very important and I thought is different. And I think that's good is when I'm in the work I do, I try not to go in with your racist, but you know what I mean? To go in to say, wait, this is what happens in this system and this is how people get caught up in it. But this is also how we can repair it. >> Barbara Davis: Thank you. >> Linda Villarosa: Thank you. >> Lane: Hi, my name is Lane and I haven't read the book yet, but I'm going to be buying it at book signing. But I've read your other two books and I was just wondering, is there a commonality in your themes or do you feel that they're connected in some way? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Yes, I think all of my books center black women, and they all are histories that I'm sort of unearthing. And I think too often [...] black women's stories are swept under the rug. I mean, we all know about the syphilis experiment. Most of us, I'm hearing from people actually who don't know about it. So, yeah, there's lots of people who don’t But, you know, there are lots of ways in which, when people think abou civil rights, it's framed as a male sort of thing. And so I really want to frame and amplify black women's stories. You know, I I've never had a New York Times book review, you know. Why not? >> Linda Villarosa: What? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: No, never. I've never had a New York Times book review. Why not? And I will tell you also, [...] Wench, my first book, was hugely popular. And when Wench came out, people had, and I encountered it, slavery, fatigue. They didn't want to hear stories of slavery. They were saying, you know, a lot of people resisted. I remember looking for blurbs and people didn't want to do it. And I would go on these tours and people say, Why are you writing about slavery? And then Wench comes out. It's hugely successful and we realized that people do want to hear a well-crafted story about that time that humanizes us and that tells from our perspective. And then you have other books that come out, you know, because the publishing industry also recognizes it, [...] but nobody gave credit to that it was this story about these black women in Ohio that really reignited, [...] you know, readers appetite for [...] black history, you know, in fiction. So, you know, I just really want to urge you to keep supporting historical fiction, particularly that centered around black women. And yeah, hang in there with me. I appreciate you reading those first two books. That means a lot to me. [Applause] It’s been a while since I read Wench, I mean, how did you even find out about that? It was just like my mind was blown. >> Linda Villarosa: Yeah. Describe the, give a little plot summary first. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Okay, so Wench is inspired by a resort in Ohio that actually existed where enslavers vacationed with women who they enslaved. Right? And at the time we were saying slave owners and their mistress, their slave mistresses. But now we have better words to describe. But I found that in a biography of W.E.B. Dubois by the historian David Levering Lewis, and he had a little footnote in there about this resort. And it was just this one little footnote in this big two volume Pulitzer Prize winning biography And when I reached out to him to ask him what the source was, he had one little footnote in there. He was from that town, I learned, and that said, he had grown up with what he believes were the descendants of these early students. So, yeah. >> Lane: Thank you so much. >> Linda Villarosa: Y’all, lesson, word to the wise. Pay attention to footnotes, please. [Laughter] Lots of stories. >> Keysha: Hello. My name is Keysha and my book club also just finished reading Take My Hand. And so I have a question and another, there's more of a comment that maybe you could speak to. And so my question was the librarian in the story who kind of guided them and taught them about things that they didn't know, is that also based on or inspired by an actual person? >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: No, just librarians I’ve known. >> Keysha: Okay. That's amazing. Thank you. And so then my second, that kind of brought some things to mind when we talk about the marginalization of black women in American health care. And I was thinking about India and how her diagnosis, I don't want to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't read, but just her diagnosis and how she was mute and wasn't able to speak for herself and she had to rely on her sister to support her. And it just kind of made me think about in health care how a lot of times, and you spoke to this a little as well, how black women aren't listened to. And I think of Serena, who we, you know, we're really cheering for right now, when she went through her childbirth and she knew something was wrong and she wasn't listened to and how just thinking about the symbolism of India being mute and her this thing happening to her and she not having a voice and having to rely on her sister and us relying on our sisters to support us. Can you just kind of speak to speak to how you were inspired? That just it seems like it was some inspiration there in terms of India's mute and us being, you understand what, I'm just trying to get it out. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: You know, definitely. Linda talks about Serena in her book and she talks about the very thing you're talking about as not being seen and heard. But I would tell you, the thing that really was an emotional moment in the book for me as I was writing it is when she realizes that the reason the clinic is so eager to sterilize these girls is because they believe that India could be preyed upon and wouldn't be able to tell anyone like she could have been raped or something and wouldn't be able to tell anyone. But that, even that is a sort of disregard for the level of family that she has around her who can help her communicate. She’s non-verbal, but she's not unsupported, you know, and so, and she has a good man for a father, too. So, yeah, I think. >> Linda Villarosa: Thank you. That's moving. Would you ask our last question? >> Teresa: Good afternoon. Thank you. My name is Teresa and my book club has not read the book yet. But I want to be ready for the discussion when we do. So, will you please talk about the nurses first name? Did you choose it? Did the name choose the character? Talk about that. >> Dolen Perkins-Valdez: Okay. And I'm going to be very, very quick because they're telling us to wrap it up. Civil is named by her father. She born in 1950. And he wants her to embody sort of civil rights and the hope for the future. And years ago, one of my friends has a sister, and I'm from Tennessee, and her sister's name is Civil. And I said, well, one day I'm going to use that as a character name. But, you know, you just talking. But when I began to think about this character, I knew this was my Civil. And it's a big thing for her to try to live up to that name. And I just knew this was Civil, you know? Yeah. Thank you. >> Linda Villarosa: Wow. [Applause] >> Linda Villarosa: Thank you for coming. What a wonderful discussion. Thank you for your openness. Thank you for your brilliance. Dolen will be signing books in some cavernous part of this giant place somewhere. Just kind of follow breadcrumbs, but get your book. And you heard how many people have this book as their book club book. So hello? [Laughs] Follow along. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming.