>> Ashley Dickerson: Good evening. Hello, everyone. How is everyone doing? Nice to have you all here. Thanks for being here. Yes, clap, clap. Welcome to the National Book Festival. It's great to be back in person. I'm glad to see everyone. And welcome to our panel. "Thieves and Their Petty Little Secrets". We are here with our wonderful amazing authors, Chelsea Abdullah. Pronouns she/her. And our lovely other author, M.J. Kuhn. Also she/her. (audience clap) So if you guys love bad guys, secrets upon secrets upon secrets and doom, definitely doom. And if you're into anime, you've seen Maggie or Psychopaths, this panel. Yes, definitely for you. So without further ado, I am your lovely moderator. My name is Ashley Dickerson. I work for the Library of Congress. I am an acquisitions and cataloging specialist for Finland and the Baltics. And on my free time, I'm a cosplayer and a person who loves pettiness. So thieves is right up my alley. (all laugh) So before we get started with this panel, I would love to give an honorary mention to all of our lovely sponsors of the science fiction and fantasy stage. So starting off with General Motors, David Rubenstein and all our other lovely sponsors. At the end of the event, there will be a Q&A session and there will be mics presented in the audience. So when the time comes, I will let you guys know. So please think of all of your great questions during our lovely discussion and come up and ask our authors a little bit of everything. Somewhat. Keep it clean, please (laughs). So authors, they will have a signing between one and 2 p.m. Chelsea, I believe, is in line 11 and M.J. will be in line 12. So let's get started. So both of you have created perfectly evil, well, layered villains. Chelsea, Omar, I have beef. (Chelsea and Dickerson laugh) And MJ Clem. I refuse to say his first name there (laughs). And my friend, she wants to cosplay Omar. Because I told her about his outfit in the silver. I'm not going to spoil it. Don't worry. I'm not going to tell you guys. But yes. So with that said, how did you guys create your respective villains? So what was the thought process inspiration? your respective villains? So what was the thought process inspiration? Did they scare you and bother you after you created such a diabolical person? >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah, well, I'll kick it off. So the hardest thing for me about writing a character like Callum Clem is that he's a lot smarter than I am, which makes it difficult because I have to like write what he's doing and thinking, which can be challenging. So yeah, I had to do a lot of character building. I do a thing where I interview my characters as I'm building them, where I'll just kind of pepper them with random questions, some of them deep, like if you could choose a way to die. And some of them are like what's your Starbucks order, right? Things that won't be relevant. But I just really feel like I need to get inside their head and feel like I kind of know what makes them tick. So, yeah, that's basically how Clem came to be in a roundabout way (laughs). >> Chelsea Abdullah: I just want to say I think he's the most conniving person. So you did a very good job making him awful. So I feel like I'm the exact opposite. So instead of planning everything, I kind of have like a very general concept of what I want to do with my characters. For Omar, I thought, okay, I want to make this King of the 40 Thieves because my story takes inspiration from the 1001 Night Tales, specifically the versions that I heard growing up. So I had this concept of, okay, I want to make this King of the 40 thieves, and I'm going to see how that plays out on the page. And I started with this concept. One of the biggest pieces of lore that my world revolves around is this concept of the jinn. And how the jinn are treated in this world. And there are jinn hunters in this world. People who hunt jinn for their blood, which revitalizes the land, and they also steal jinn magic. People who hunt jinn for their blood, which revitalizes the land, and they also steal jinn magic. And so, you know, there's a lot of morals, and ethics and all of these different perceptions of whether the gender, evil or not. and ethics and all of these different perceptions of whether the gender, evil or not. You know, the truth of the matter is that the gender, just like humans, they can be bad, they can be good. You know, the truth of the matter is that the gender, just like humans, they can be bad, they can be good. They can be either of those things. But the king of the 40 thieves is a jinn hunter. And so I knew that going into the story, I knew that he would be a hunter. But in terms of coming up with his personality, I sort of let that come to me on the the page, which is what I do with all of my characters. They kind of show me the way as I go through the story. And that's what feels most authentic to me. >> Ashley Dickerson: So what would be his Starbucks order? >> Chelsea Abdullah: (all laugh) Oh, wow. >> Ashley Dickerson: If not, like drink of choice. Because I'm curious about Callum. >> Chelsea Abdullah: (laughs). I mean, I feel like it would just be the plainest, blackest coffee. (laughs) >> Ashley Dickerson: He deserves nothing less. >> Chelsea Abdullah: And like, just for appearances, you know? (laughs) >> Ashley Dickerson: Oh. He doesn't get sugar. He doesn't get anything nice. I saw what he did, you know, not allowed (laughs). So we'll stay with that for a second, because I do want tojump into Stardust Thief, and then obviously, will bounce to M.J. Where you feel necessary jump in, by all means. So one of the things I loved so much about Stardust were the pops of storytelling and the oral story. So in your book there were clear pages that look like parchment, which were amazing, look like scrolls like left by, and they had really cool folklore and tales. And there was one tale in particular that really stuck out to me. It was the tale of Sophia, Sophia. And in it says in the quote was, "Humans are the ones who decide when legacies die". So in your world, jinn are painted to be they're revered, but they're also creatures that need to be destroyed and eliminated by any means. And to me, there was a shift throughout the book where there were pops of the jinn taking their narrative back or telling their story saying, "Oh, this is not true. Humans created this." Or you had I don't want to say jinn sympathized because it seems weird, but people like Lu Lee, who were more. No, that's not always the case. Because, you know, we know her connections. Again, I'm trying so hard not to spoil it, (laughs) but to get back on track. How important was it for you to weave their humanity back into their own storytelling, give them power to tell their own stories? >> Chelsea Abdullah: So I think. That's one of the biggest sort of themes of Stardust Stardust, is how stories changed depending on who it is that's telling the story. So if you have a story that's told by the people who are hunting the jinn then of course the narrative is going to change. They're going to paint the jinn as being these villainous entities, whereas by giving the jinn the opportunity to tell those stories, then of course the narrative switches. And I think that's the nature of storytelling in general and also kind of, you know, just the idea of behind history itself. History is always told by sort of the winners or the people, the colonizers and whatnot. So in The Stardust Thief, of I wanted to give the characters the opportunity to tell the stories from different perspectives, to show that stories can be true,but they can also be lies They can tell you the truth about a situation, but they can also be propaganda as well. And throughout the story, I mean, most of the characters that you meet sort of in the general world do believe that the jinn are villainous entities. The main character, Loulie al-Nazari has a bodyguard who is a jinn. And so her perception of what the jinn are is obviously very different. And so that's something that I definitely wanted to play with throughout the story. And I think throughout the series as well. Just this idea that, you know, stories are powerful. And depending on who it is that's telling the story, you know, that can have serious repercussions on our culture. >> Ashley Dickerson: She spoiled it, not me. I did my job. (all laugh) So to bounce that to M.J. because I feel your story also relates to the same thing, where now she has a sister who in your world you can explain this too. I'm just going to drop it. Nash has a sister who is a magic user or an adept, and she was taken away. And there are pops in the story where she's like she tells like no adept need to do this or adept or people too. And we have Ryia who also does something similar. Because she has her own past with adepting. She humanizes them. She never refers to him as objects or it. She says he, she, they. She sees them as people still even though their eyes and how they're treated, not so much. >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah. So the magic system in Among Thieves is, I mean, it's pretty dark (laughs). It's a little bit. So essentially there are magic wielders. And when they are born, they are hunted down by a man named the Guild Master and stolen away as infants to be raised and brainwashed on his island and then sold to the highest bidder as a magical slave. And they are very emotionless. They're blank because they've just been brainwashed from infancy. And it is a dark system of magic. I feel that it's a fear response from the society into more. That not everyone can wield magic. So let's try to shackle the ones that can so that we don't have to be afraid of them. And it's been part of the society for so long. That they are dehumanized by the majority of the characters in even. Some of the characters that that we like, that we hear from, which is complicated. But, you know, several of my characters do, like Nash understands. She had an infant sister that was taken. So she's constantly thinking about, you know, Is this adept my sister, you know, and that humanizes it and gives a direct connection. And Ryia has a connection as well. And I think it's important. It was important for me in writing the story that throughout the tale you see more of the characters begin to come around and see as they learn more. Because you don't know what you don't know. And if all you know is that this is the way the adept have been presented to me. My entire life and I don't have any direct connection to it. As you learn more, they're willing to open their minds and begin to realize that they've been wrong, which is important. >> Ashley Dickerson: Awesome. So just going to dive into yours. Who is your favorite character and why is it Ryia? I'm speaking for me. Solely for me because I'm already planning to cosplay her myself because battle axes because I need the battle Alexis but (all laugh) professional, my bad. Back to what we were talking about. (all laugh) So I know she's one of the main characters, so a lot of the focus tends to be towards her. But I do really enjoy her. I love that she's sarcastic. I love that she's vulgar. I love that she's brash, murderous femme, presenting character that everyone aspires to be like. if that, but in later bits of the story,she does become more reflective about her behavior. She does, you know, show that she can be a little vulnerable, especially with Evelyn. And I wanted to know with characters like Ryia, because, you know, when we think of thieves, we always think, oh, they're bad, they're terrible. We'll double back around to that. But we know we think they're terrible, they're vulgar. they're terrible. We'll double back around to that. But we know we think they're terrible, they're vulgar. They're probably the worst people on earth. But you have characters like Ryia who the first. Yes. She showed that because she cut a dude's finger off. But you have characters like Ryia who the first. Yes. She showed that because she cut a dude's finger off. But she came back with feeling guilty about hurting people and thinking more But she came back with feeling guilty about hurting people and thinking more about her actions to instead of, oh, I could just kill this person, but I'm not going to. I'm going to do something else. I guess, how did you go about creating the balance and making her character, balancing out the villainy, but yet also keeping a little bit of humanity, her slowly accepting that she is changing in her own way? >> M.J. Kuhn: So for the entire story of Among Thieves, redemption was like a really important theme that I wanted to explore because the characters in Among Thieves, they're not at the beginning, they're largely not good people. You know, there's a lot of backstabbing and betrayal before. >> Chelsea Abdullah: So much. >> M.J. Kuhn: So much. Like-- >> Ashley Dickerson: Oh, my God. You know, because they've all been in this situation or their various situations for so long that they have to look out for number one. And that's the only thing that they really know. And I think for Ryia specifically, without giving too much of her story away, her darkness and her willingness to commit evil acts comes from the fact that she genuinely believes that she is broken. She believes she cannot be saved, and she's not worthy of saving. And it's only when she begins to actually form bonds with people, and starts to realize that maybe she's not broken after all and she starts to kind of soften. And realize that maybe the way that she's been living is not the only way that she's able to live. Because of the power of friendship saying, Oh. >> M.J. Kuhn: It does. We need. (all laugh) Like rainbow emojis here. >> Ashley Dickerson: It's like we're a family. Like, why do I care about this person? Why do I care about this person? >> M.J. Kuhn: Yes. That's her internal monologue. Like the whole book. (all laugh) >> Chelsea Abdullah: This is why we love Found Family. >> M.J. Kuhn: Yes. Yes. >> Ashley Dickerson: Exactly. So to toss it back to Chelsea, because, you know, we do love thieves and you have a few lovely debauched thieves in yours as well. So do talk about your thieves and how you changed the trajectory of your thieves, how you know the start-- we know who the Stardust Thief is. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Yeah. So, I mean, I think one of the most interesting things to me, you know, when people come to me after they've read the story and I will not say who the Stardust Thief is. But people always come to me and say, "Oh, so that's The Stardust Thief." So they have this idea of who the thief is going into the story, and then it turns out to be someone completely different. And that's actually one of the things that I really love about the title. And one of the reasons I think the title has stuck around, is that that concept of thief applies to so many of the different characters. Even if they aren't all technically thieves, you know, one of the main characters is a seller of rare magics on the black market. you know, one of the main characters is a seller of rare magics on the black market. And so in some ways, she's kind of a thief. We have the villain, Omar, the King of the 40 thieves, who is obviously a thief. You have Aisha, who's another one of the main characters, who is also kind of the thief that joins the characters on their journey through the desert to find this ancient relic. And then you have one character who is, in some people's eyes, kind of a thief, but he's not actually a thief. Again, don't want to say too much just (laughs) because that one is a bigger spoiler. But so I love playing with this concept of, I think, seen external versus internal. So how the characters see themselves versus how everyone else sees them. And I think the title of Thief is kind of thrown around a lot throughout the story. Because there are a lot of thieves, but also because people see thievery in different ways. And so, of course, the way the characters see themselves is completely different. You know, Omar is a thief. He's also a hunter of jinn. And he thinks he's justified in what he does. >> Ashley Dickerson: Too justified. >> Chelsea Abdullah: (laughs) Yes. And there are a lot of people who think that as well about him. But then there are people who look at his title as King of the 40 Thieves and see that as villainous. So I really like to play and this is kind of something that I do throughout, I think, all of my work. I like to play with this concept of this is how people are seen through the stories that other people tell about them. Versus these are the stories that they tell about themselves. And so this is how, you know, this is where you see that sort of distortion behind what we might see in them as a thief versus why they think they are justified in being a thief. >> Ashley Dickerson: That's awesome. And I just noticed you have your book as earrings. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Oh, thank you. (laughs) >> Ashley Dickerson: Subtle things. I love. >> M.J. Kuhn: Super cute. >> Ashley Dickerson: So one big element in both of your respective books, of course, was the commodification of magic. So we can talk about that for a bit. Let's just dive into that. So in both of your books, you approach how magic is commodified differently, but there are similarities. I don't look at gardens the same way, and I have lemon balm in my bag because we're not running the written. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Got to be ready. >> Ashley Dickerson: Always. So break down the importance of magic in your respective books. The politics behind it, the social implications, capitalism, the ups and downs. Go for it. We'll start with M.J. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Rock, paper, scissors. (all laugh) >> M.J. Kuhn: So the whole society of Thamorr, the world behind Among Thieves is built on the commodification of the magic, right? There are kingdoms in Thamorr. And there are kings and there are queens, but they have some power, but they don't have real power. And that's mentioned several times in the book because the person that has the real power is the guild master. The one that is capable of providing the magic to all the kingdoms. I think that yeah, I mean-- I mentioned a little bit earlier that it's when not everyone was capable of wielding magic, and they were able to buy it instead. That was the choice that the kingdoms made in the past. And, you know, it's to the point, another piece that I've had several folks mentioned to me that they found interesting about Among Thieves is, you know, a lot of fantasy novels are centered around war. And not only is there not a war and Among Thieves, but the war is not possible in this world because the guild master has outlawed war. And if any kingdom attempts to begin a war, they are cut off from receiving adept. And that king will be ousted and taken out of power. So it's a cold war (laughs) among all of the kingdoms, basically. And that just, I think, shows how much power the magic system has in the world of Thamorr. >> Chelsea Abdullah: And I mean, I love the way you incorporated the magic into your political system in your book. We're all just fans here. Yeah, no. So as I was saying before. Magic, especially jinn magic, because that is where magic comes from in this world, is sort of one of the foundational pieces of lore, pieces of world building in the Stardust Thief. is sort of one of the foundational pieces of lore, pieces of world building in the Stardust Thief. And I think in a sort of similar way, the jinn are kind of objectified by what people can give them. And I mean, you know, people think of their magic in terms of literal objects as well. There are jinn magics in the form of objects that you can buy on the black market. market. And so people are not really thinking about, you know, the lives of the jinn who are stolen, you know in order to get this magical relic from a jinn. You're going to have to steal it from them, or you're going to have to kill them. People aren't really thinking about that in this world. I mean, some people are, but on the whole, they're thinking, oh, well, this is a magic from a jinn. And you know, what can I use this magic for? So they're objectifying the jinn in that way. And they're also thinking about jinn blood in that way as well, because jinn blood revitalizes this very barren desert world. And so, you know, there's this idea of, well, you know, the jinn need to be sacrificed in order to revitalize the world. And so people think this is a just sacrifice. The story begins with this tale, the tale of the Jinn. And it sort of sets up this foundational lore that the jinn were, you know, the jinn were the first creatures in the world, but then they overused their magic and, you know, blasphemed against the gods. And so they were punished. And so because people think, oh, well, these jinn were punished by the gods and because they were punished by the gods, the world is the way that it is. We have the right to kill them and, you know, to revitalize the land with their blood. It's all very twisted and awful. But of course, the characters, you know, the main cast, It's all very twisted and awful. But of course, the characters, you know, the main cast, they all come from very different perspectives of how they view the jinn, but they are constantly reevaluating what these morals look like and what this law and what these stories look like as you go through the novel. >> Ashley Dickerson: Like I love. I don't want to gab too much how much I loved your books, but I loved your books. I don't want to gab too much how much I loved your books, but I loved your books. And one of the things I really did, like stuck with was reading the femme presenting character. So we have Loulie, we have Nash, we ahve Ryia. I love how there was a lot variety of not just personality but a lot of traits. I love how there was a lot variety of not just personality but a lot of traits. You had someone who is strong. He had someone who, you know, had vulnerability. There was a breakdown, but they didn't let that breakdown define them. And near the end, again, I'm trying so hard not to spoil, but I want to (laughs). So when you created these femme presenting characters, was it your intention to make them? I don't want to say make a multi layered because obviously like, duh but what was your intention behind making all of them as well rounded as they were showing some aspects of femininity, but also showing very headstrong independence, especially in the face of adversity? >> Chelsea Abdullah: I'll start with this one. So for me, I think it always comes down to making the characters people. So, you know, I never really go in thinking, oh, I want this female character to present this way. I always start, well, first of all, I kind of start with nothing because I'm a penser. (laughs) So I have like a very, you know, I have like a concept of where I want to go with the character but then I let the characters show me who they are on the page. But I think for me, coming back to this idea of making sure my characters feel human, one thing that I like to explore is vulnerability. So I have all of these characters, most of the cast, I'd say, kind of start off feeling very confident. They present as very confident people. Loulie is this, you know, black market marchant. So she's very cocky and like people, you know, she's kind of legendary. So of course, she lets it get to her head. she's kind of legendary. So of course, she lets it get to her head. >> M.J. Kuhn: She's amazing. (M.J. and Chelsea laugh) >> Chelsea Abdullah: And then you have Aisha, who is a jinn hunter and a thief. And so and people are kind of terrified of her. >> Ashley Dickerson: So Kind of? (all laugh) >> Chelsea Abdullah: So she has a reputation. So you have these two women who have this reputation, who have reputations for very different reasons. And so they kind of start off in this high place almost. But then as the story goes around or goes along, and I think this is true of the entire cast, they start, you know, that line between the stories that are told about them versus the stories that, again, that they're telling themselves about who they are, they kind of collapse and break down. And so especially with Loulie, she constantly hears all these rumors about herself on the market. People are always talking about how legendary she is. And you know, she's this incredible merchant. And so that becomes a part of her identity. But then as the story goes along, I keep saying along, around (laughs), as things keep happening in the story, she is forced to examine what she thinks about herself. And so those walls continue to deteriorate. And so I think that is something that I have happened for the entire cast. They all have these moments of fragility and vulnerability, where they're at their weakest, of course. But then again, they start off as being these very sort of confident characters who think they know who they are. But then it turns out (laughs). When everyone is put under strife and in these really intense situations, and when you know these secrets, there are multiple secrets in the story. When they start coming to light, they have to reexamine things about themselves. And so for me as a writer, I always want to be able to give my characters that space, to examine those things about themselves, those perceptions that other people have about them. But also, I want them to be able to have the space to examine their own identities as well. And I think especially for my female characters, because I think we see a lot of really strong, powerful female characters, which is great. But I also want them to have that space to be able to be weak and to be to be fragile, and vulnerable with other people. And, you know, again, like I say all the time, that I really like exploring that because I think to be vulnerable is to be human. And so I like examining how each of the characters reacts differently to that vulnerability and how they express that. And I think that's something that I think about for sure with my female characters. But just in general, as a writer, I like to give all my characters that space. >> M.J. Kuhn: I love that. Kind of similar energy that I have with mine. So I have three main female characters in Among Thieves we have Ryia, we have Evelyn, and we have Nash. And they're pretty radically different characters. But I'll focus on Ryia since she is like our most main character. I think for Ryia, that's not her real name. So, you know, it's kind of difficult. She is not vulnerable. She's very closed off. She isn't even honest with who she is to herself in the beginning for sure. So I think that makes it very fun to make a very layered character because, you know, even though I do all of this prep work upfront to try to build my characters. I'm going to sound a little like a crazy person here. But when I'm interviewing Ryia, she wasn't talking to me because she's so closed off. So as I was drafting it out, I kind of had to peel back those layers myself, you know, kind of discovering it through the writing as a reader would, discovering it through the reading. But yeah, I think when I'm creating my characters, whether I'm creating a female character v character or a character of any gender, I think that like you said, you just got to focus on making them human. And everybody has strengths and weaknesses and vulnerabilities regardless of their circumstance or anything about them. So just remembering that just really helps make it more well-rounded (laughs). >> Ashley Dickerson: You know, I have love for you, you know. So since we're winding down, this is probably such a clichéd question, considering that what I'm about to ask is like included in the title of one of your books. In your respective stories, is there honor amongst thieves? I had to do it. I love puns. >> Chelsea Abdullah: I love it I love it. >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah, I'll start because it's funny because there are two iterations of that. That old chestnut, right? There is no honor among thieves and honor among thieves. And I purposely kept my title so that it's ambiguous as to which I mean. So I guess you'll have to read to find out (all laugh). >> Ashley Dickerson: Love because I loved how in your story there was at first everyone was all for themselves. Everyone backstabing. But then there's a hint of near the end we're thinking about each other. Why are we thinking about? jinn is like because you're family. You're becoming family. >> M.J. Kuhn: Accept it. You have feelings. It's okay. >> Ashley Dickerson: It's okay to like each other (laughs). And then, of course, more backstabbing. >> M.J. Kuhn: You know, old habits die hard. >> Ashley Dickerson: Truly. >> Chelsea Abdullah: I'm going to say for me, it depends on which thieves you're talking about in the story. Because I feel like there are many of them, depending on what your definition of thief is. >> Ashley Dickerson: (all laugh) Oh, absolutely. And now to get to technical questions. We'll start with M.J., because you brought it up again interviewing your characters. For those who are interested in writing, those who are curious about the writing process, what do you mean by interviewing your characters? And what is your process with that? >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah, so actually I think this is funny. And when we were talking a little bit beforehand, I think for like talking about the crafts, we have a really fun panel here because Chelsea and I are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum of writing, which is so fun because everyone does it differently. And I always say there is no wrong way to write a book as long as it works for you. So I'm really intense on the plotting side. I like to really plan out all my characters. All my plot beats everything. I use Microsoft Excel to do my plotting. It's intense. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Incredible to me. (all laugh) >> M.J. Kuhn: You're like, this is my nightmare. But yes, so when I interview my characters, I will. I'll just get a list of 40 questions or so, and I will literally sit down and I will ask them inside my head to each of my characters, especially the ones that I'm writing points of view from, but especially if there's a more minor character that I feel like is going to have a lot of page time. I'll ask them the questions as well. And then the trick is they may answer the question in their voice. So instead of just, you know, what's your name? And then they say it, you know, when I asked Ryia, what's your name? She said, "Who's asking? Why would I tell you?" Right, so you answer it as though the character is actually answering your questions. And it's very helpful for getting to know the characters, understanding what their emotional arc might look like. But also, it's so helpful when you get to writing dialogue because then you already know their voice, you already have it. And if you kind of feel like you've lost the thread of what their voice sounds like and just go back and read the interviews that you wrote down. So, yeah. That's my little pro tip. >> Ashley Dickerson: Thank you for that. And Chelsea, what is your writing process for your characters? How do you come up with your dialogue? How do you come up with worldbuilding? Because Sandsea was amazing. >> Chelsea Abdullah: (laughs) Thank you. Yeah, like I said before, I'm a penser. I like to tell people I'm a discovery writer. And then it sounds cooler. (all laugh) It sounds like I know what I'm doing a little bit more I think. But I think for me, what I tend to do is, so I usually go in with sort of big concepts in mind. So for this story I had sort of a trajectory. I knew, okay, I want these characters to find this magical lamp. I knew that was going to be sort of the crux of the story. I knew who the main characters were, and I knew what the very first scene of the story was going to be because I don't have a whole lot. I needed something to anchor me in the world. And one of the things I love about writing personally as a writer is that I do get to discover the story, and get to know the characters as I go along. So that's the reason my process works so well for me. And so if I have that opening scene and 'I'm interested in these characters and I'm intrigued by this world, you know, then that's enough to kind of push me to keep going. One thing that was very helpful for me when I was getting through this draft. And I've told multiple people this, I write really long first drafts because I'm discovering the world. I had someone read through the draft as I was writing it. This person was entirely a cheerleader. There were no critiques, there were no notes of that sort of variety. It was just someone there to be excited about the story. And she was another writer. So I was also excited about her story as well. And so we continued to trade off chapters. And as I was writing, I was writing for myself and for my characters because I wanted to know what happened next. But having that other person there to say they were also interested really, really helped me get through the process. And then, you know, I kind of just let myself write, explore the story, and then when I'm done, because I personally think, like, you know, the best piece of advice is just to get the first draft done in whatever way you possibly can, you know. If you need to plot your way to get there, great. If you need to just freestyle it, that also works, but get it done. And then once you edit, the story can change so much. And for me, I mean, most of my story came to light when I did edit, because that first draft was so big. I like to think of it as like this expansive map. But then when you're presenting the story to a reader, the reader doesn't necessarily want to see all of the like, meandering plot lines. They don't want to see every single location on the map. They just want the path that will take them, you know, to the ending of the story. The clearest path. So I found that during edits. And I think a lot of people, you know, I've spoken to other writers and aspiring writers, but also like really established writers who always run into this problem. But I think we put so much pressure on ourselves and edits to make the story good immediately. But I think, you don't need to do that. I definitely did not do that. I edited this story for a very long time, and I did multiple rounds of edits to make sure that it matched the vision in my head. And I think it's okay to take that time. You know, I think very often there's this pressure of, oh, I need to get this book done, I need to query it. I need to get it out there in the world. But the most important thing at the end of the day is that, the story on the page matches what you have in your head. So it's okay to take the time. the story on the page matches what you have in your head. So it's okay to take the time. >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah, I love that because that's -- there are two things that I think about and anchor myself on because I really hate first drafts. I find them painful. (both laugh) it's so hard. But the first is that I wish I could remember the source of this quote. I read it on a writing blog years ago and it was that the first draft is gathering sand and the edits are where you build your sandcastle. So like you're just bringing all your thoughts together in one place and they can be as messy as they want to be, and then we'll make it pretty later. And then the second piece that I think about all the time is the great thing about writing a novel is you kind of get as many drafts as you want. So, you know, even if it takes, I think, Among Thieves, I think the version that is on the bookshelves right now is, I think, draft 18. So, you know, sometimes it takes a minute to get it there. >> Chelsea Abdullah: A couple of years (laughs). >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah. Just, you know, six years, it's fine. >> Ashley Dickerson: Oh, it's a fine time (laughs). >> M.J. Kuhn: But, yeah, just take your time. And that's when I do, especially when I talk to like schools and students and stuff, it's like there is sometimes this anxiety and this sense that you want to push it out there. You want to get a book out there immediately. that you want to push it out there. You want to get a book out there immediately. And I agree. Take your time. Be patient, because once it's out there, like, you can't touch it. So make sure that you're happy with what you're putting out there. >> Ashley Dickerson: And one of my last questions before you guys can plug, because I want to know when the next books are coming out, because I'm stressed, like clearly very stressed. It's like one thing. Anyway, you guys laid your -- each chapter of your book is a different character's perspective. Which character did you wish you could just slide in one or two more chapters just to get in their last two thoughts? Because I saw what you did, the epilogue. You put them at the end. I saw that, sneaky. (all laugh) >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah, well, I always say and I say, she's my secret favorite. But I've said it like 30 times, so it's not a secret anymore. Nash is my secret. Not so secret favorite. I feel like that's because of all my characters. Like Nash is the one I want to go get a beer with. Right? Like I feel like she's the least likely to stab me. (both laugh) Sure. It feels like fun. I mean, least likely. Not impossible. >> Ashley Dickerson: Okay, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. >> M.J. Kuhn: But yeah, I wish I would have had the opportunity to sneak some more of of Nash into the pages of Among Thieves. But there will be opportunity for more Nash later. >> Ashley Dickerson: Yes, because I really love I really wanted to hear more from Nash, especially with the little pops of coming up like about her sister and looking for assistance, like, okay, are we finding it? Okay, we're not. Are we finding it? I need you to have closure. (all laugh) >> Chelsea Abdullah: That's such a great teaser. And like, you know, you're like my book two to find out more. I'm actually very happy, I think, with the amount of each character that appears in the start of see if I have three perspectives. Loulie who's the midnight merchant. You know, the black seller, the black market seller, Mazen, who is the cowardly prince. >> Ashley Dickerson: The precious cinnamon rolls. >> Chelsea Abdullah: (laughs) And Aisha, who is this sort of vengeance incarnate? >> Ashley Dickerson: Like Ryia is like second cousin, kind of like. >> M.J. Kuhn: They would absolutely murder each other. >> Chelsea Abdullah: They would stab each other. (all laugh) But so I'm very happy, I think, with how all of their perspectives balanced out. I do have to say, balancing the perspectives was one of the hardest things for me to do as a writer, trying to figure out what needed to happen through each character's perspective. And also, you know, sometimes I would feel like, oh, well, this would be this is probably a better Loulie chapter, but oh no, I've already had two Loulie chapters. Is this too much Loulie? Like, are people going to get sick of her? Is this too much Loulie? Like, are people going to get sick of her? >> M.J. Kuhn: Never too much Loulie. (all laugh) >> Chelsea Abdullah: But I ended up adding a lot more Aisha in the story, which I'm very happy about. I feel like through every single round of edits, I added more and more of her. So she became more and more involved in the story to the point where I look back at my first draft and her chapters are, you know, she does not have a lot of chapters in the first draft and it's barely recognizable to me. Like, I can never believe that she was such a small part of the story to start with. But then it just goes to show you how much things can change in edits. >> Ashley Dickerson: Of all the characters I kind of started leaning to looking forward to when she was going to come up. Because I knew something was up with her. It was like, I don't know what it is, but I will figure this out. And then once I figured I was like, I knew I didn't. It's like I had my own look. >> Chelsea Abdullah: I knew there was a secret there somewhere. >> Ashley Dickerson: Exactly. So I was happy to see more of her after the fact. Her with pairing up with Mazen again. I'm trying so hard not to tell, but it was nice to see the changes that were happening in her. It was nice to see. It's not like she wasn't human, but it was nice to see some of the humanity coming back to her because of him. And her thinking about him and worried about him because he could not defend himself whatsoever (both laugh). >> Chelsea Abdullah: He tries his best. >> Ashley Dickerson: He does. So for the last bit, let's plug. When are your next books coming out? Where can the lovely people find you on social media? >> Chelsea Abdullah: You want to start? >> M.J. Kuhn: Sure. So, okay, perfect. So the first book in the duology, it's going to be a two book series. Among Thieves is is out right now, it's available. >> Ashley Dickerson: It's her debut book. >> M.J. Kuhn: Yes, my first born book, Baby, and the sequel, it's called Thick as Thieves. And it will be coming out tentatively slated for next summer, so summer 2023. But it's definitely coming. So, yeah. And then if you guys want to find me on social media anywhere, I'm across all the platforms. So Instagram, Twitter,TikTok. >> Ashley Dickerson: You have TikTok. >> M.J. Kuhn: I got TikTok. I'm masquerading as a gen z. (Chelsea and M.J. laughs) Oh my God. Oh, yes @MJKuhnBooks. K-U-H-N. And it's all one word. That's who I am on everything, so. >> Chelsea Abdullah: And so my first book in the Sandsea trilogy is called The Stardust Thief, available now. The second book in the trilogy is called The Ash Fire King. That one right now is slated for fall 2023. So fingers crossed we can keep that date. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter @ChelsAbdullah. So that's C-H-E-L-S A-B-D-U-L-L-A-H. >> Ashley Dickerson: So no TikTok? >> Chelsea Abdullah: No TikTok. >> Ashley Dickerson: Can we convince you to get the TikTok? We'll bring you over (all laugh) to the dark side, with the filters and the song. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Maybe someday. >> Ashley Dickerson: You mean when we get backstage? I'm high, low key encouraging this; so awesome. Since we have one minute left. Is it okay to start? Okay, cool. So if you guys have any questions and answers for our lovely authors, please come up to the mic. And if not, we can just keep talking. It all works out with me. Yes, yes. (all laugh) >> Molly: Hi, I'm Molly. Thank you so much for such a wonderful talk. I have just bought your two books, so I was thankful for no spoilers, so I had a question about your writing process. So when you're writing fantasy, what is your process in creating new mythos and new worlds while still honoring the legends, and cultures that inspire you in our world? >> M.J. Kuhn: That's a great question. >> Ashley Dickerson: That was a great one. Thank you for being the first question. >> M.J. Kuhn: I know, right. I feel like you should start because it's so brutal in it. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Yeah. Yeah, well, I think -- so for me, when I set out to write The Stardust Thief, I wanted to write something that was a love letter to all the oral stories that I'd grown up with. But I also wanted to give myself that distance to write in a fantasy world. So I think for me, a lot of the stories that you see in The Stardust Thief, they're sort of echoes of what you will find in our world. You know, you'll see, I think a lot of people have seen the One Thousand and One Night tale echoes, you know, the King of the 40 Thieves and the sort of magical lamp from Aladdin. So I think you'll see the roots of those stories, sort of the concepts, but then the way they're played within the world changes. And I think for me because I kind of start off with again like big concepts. So I had the idea of, okay, well, you know, I want to write something that is a love letter to these stories. You know, what are the stories that come to mind for me? And so I had these stories in mind. And as I wrote the world, I kind of let those stories weave their way into the world naturally. So I think for me, I sort of start big concept. And then just let myself explore that concept as I'm writing. And then, you know, I think also the ways in which those stories are incorporated change depending on the story as well. There's one scene in the story where a character is telling a bunch of stories. And for me, it's a very heartfelt scene because they're stories that I heard growing up in Kuwait. Kuwait. And so those stories are a little bit, I want to say, closer to what you would see in our reality. iAnd that's because sort of the function of the scene is very different. So I guess for me, again, because I'm a penser. (all laugh) I guess I just kind of wing it. I have you know, I have these concepts, and these stories that I would like to play with. And then I just see how they flourish on the page naturally. >> Ashley Dickerson: I need to get you a vinyl pin of that. I'm a penser. (all laugh) >> Chelsea Abdullah: I'm a discovery writer. (all laugh) >> Ashley Dickerson: Let that be a shirt, please. >> M.J. Kuhn: If we look on the Internet, I'm sure (laughs) it's somewhere on Etsy. >> Ashley Dickerson: I knew I liked you guys. (all laugh) >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah, I don't use as much direct mythology, or at least not in Among Thieves more so what I'm kind of tying to our reality is I'll base the different locations in my stories off of a real-world location, at least in the sense of climate or -- so I'll do a lot of research on-- So the Kingdom of Drizzle is very loosely based on Ireland, right? So you'll look and you'll see what kinds of crops are there and it's silly little details, but it also to me just makes me feel much more grounded in the fictional world because it will inform what people are wearing, it's going to inform what they're eating and things like that, you might barely even notice as you're reading through the book, but it just makes it feel a lot more grounded to at least to me, as the person writing it. So yeah, that's a really good question. >> Ashley Dickerson: Awesome. I know. I love that question. Any others? Welcome. Thank you. >> Hi. >> Ashley Dickerson: Hi. >> So my question is kind of an overarching question of when you were writing these stories and coming up with all of these characters, what was your main hope for with what the readers would be taking away from your respective stories? >> Ashley Dickerson: Oh, you took a question from my notes. I, like you. (Chelsea and M.J. laugh) >> M.J. Kuhn: Guys are on the same wavelength. I love it. >> Ashley Dickerson: I know. It's a book reader thing (all laugh). >> Chelsea Abdullah: So for me, I think because I started the story was very personal to me when I started writing it, you know, I wrote it shortly after I left Kuwait to go to the university. And so, I was just feeling I was missing home. And so for me, it was very nostalgic when I wrote the story and I think it was only during edits that I started to think, oh, well, you know, maybe other people would enjoy this story as well. Maybe I should give this querying thing a go. And I think I don't know if I have any specific hopes. I would say maybe that it makes people more thoughtful about the way stories function in our world, the value of stories. You know, the idea that stories can literally come from anywhere. I think, you know, and I even just thinking about readership nowadays and some people saying, "Oh, I don't really read stories anymore." But they experience stories in different ways. I think even when we tell each other about how our days went, we're telling each other's stories. And I thought a lot about that because I was talking about oral storytelling. And so whenever people say, "Oh, we don't really do that anymore. We don't tell these stories. We tell each other stories every day. So, you know, I think that's something I would love people to get out of it. And I'm sort of thinking about this in retrospect. And I think another thing that's really meaningful for me is when I have, you know, readers who are from the SWANA region, when they reach out to me and say they saw some kind of echoes of their culture, or their heritage in the story and you know, that meant something to them in some way. That is also very meaningful to me. But, you know, at the end of the day, I'm very glad to hear, you know, when readers reach out to me and they say they got anything from the story, you know, whether it's the themes, whether, you know, they fell in love with the characters, or the story felt like a sanctuary to them. All of those things are meaningful to me, and I think they're magical because I didn't anticipate what it would mean to readers. >> M.J. Kuhn: I love that. Yeah. For Among Thieves, I've talked a little bit about themes of redemption and things like that, my main goal is I want readers to just have a really great time reading Among Thieves. It's designed to be funny. It's designed to be like a quick read that you can just hammer out because I want it to be that like addicting fun read that you can stay up till 2:00 in the morning or knock out in a weekend. Like that's a lot of the kinds of books, I love to read are like that. And so I wanted to give that experience to readers. I also agree though that any, you know, if a reader gets anything out of it, I'm beyond honored. I did have one reader reach out and tell me that they had been going through a really hard time and that reading Among Thieves was the first time they'd laughed and felt like themselves in months. And I like literally teared up that day, like, you know, because that's what I wanted to do is just give someone a fun experience in the form of a book. >> Chelsea Abdullah: Such as the power of your banter. >> M.J. Kuhn: Yeah. (laughs) And my sassy characters. >> Ashley Dickerson: I wanted to do an offing, but I hit the mic and (all laugh). Because I felt the same way with both of your books, I'm not going to lie. There was a point I didn't like both of you. I almost can remember the chapter for you, Chelsea, I'll probably tell you backstage, but I can almost remember. I was like, oh, like everything drained out of me because everything, just everything got too real. >> M.J. Kuhn: I know exactly the moment you're talking about. >> Ashley Dickerson: It was the trauma and then the sweet cinnamon roll. His heart broke, and I'm like the little soft, subtle, like. So any others? Please come up. We are yay. >> Hi, so you mentioned querying your book and you know, this is both of your debut books and your writing process for something that you're planning to query is totally different from something that's on contract. So I was just wondering how your writing processes and character interview process would change when you're writing the sequel to that versus the first book? >> Ashley Dickerson: Thank you. >> Chelsea Abdullah: That is a good question. >> M.J. Kuhn: Another great question. >> Ashley Dickerson: Yes, they're coming with the good stuff, right? >> Ashley Dickerson: Yes, they're coming with the good stuff, right? >> M.J. Kuhn: So I have like a bit of a -- I don't know if it's an advantage or something. I have not had to experience the pressure of writing a book on contract yet, just because of how things worked out with the timing Among Thieves was pushed back a full calendar year because it was supposed to come out in fall of 2020 when everything was horrible. And you know, so since it got pushed back so far, I had so much time to work on the sequel and just do my little playground of work. But I'll let you know how it goes when we get there, because I've heard it's not fun. (all laugh) >> Chelsea Abdullah: She's heard from me. (all laugh) >> Ashley Dickerson: Really? >> Chelsea Abdullah: Yeah. I had heard horror stories about second books, and now I understand why. It took me a long time to write The Stardust Thief. You know, I worked on it, I think three plus years. I really just gave myself time to sink in the world. Writing a book on deadline has been a harrowing experience. It's also been-- I mean, it's also a great way to push my craft in different directions. So one thing that I used to never do or one thing that I always did, I guess, was I wrote chronologically. So if I was stuck on a scene, I let myself take two, three weeks. I think there was even one scene I just sat on it for three months because I had no idea what I was doing. Now, when I'm stuck on a scene, I will scene hop, which I have never done before. It's helpful to have multiple perspectives in that case, just because, you know, if I'm really stuck on one character's plot line, then I can just make my way to another character's plot and kind of take a little break, I guess. But it's not really a break. Because I still have to write words. But I think that's been the biggest change for me is that in order to stay productive, in order to keep writing and like trying to stay on deadline, I've had to hop around in the story a little bit more. And I mean, I feel like the process has changed because of it. And also, like the nature of the storytelling is different as well, you know, the way I have to comb back and edit is different, but it's also been an exciting experience because I'm experiencing the world and experiencing the timeline in a different way. So yes, interesting but also difficult, a difficult thing to get used to for sure. >> Ashley Dickerson: I think it was also six years. I only know because I saw your Twitter because after I finished reading your book and I was still kind of in my feelings, I was like, I have to find her to tweet at her. This is like tweet up my feelings at like 2:30 in the morning because I was totally that person reading ten chapters a night, trying to just get through. And it's just like I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to be mad (laughs). But you guys are lovely. So we have time for a few more questions if anyone has any, because obviously, we love talking. Hello. >>Hello. So knowing what you know now, is there any insight or advice you would kind of give your pre-debut author self to kind of make this process easier for them if you could do that? >> Ashley Dickerson: Thank you. Another good question. >> Ashley Dickerson: Thank you. Another good question. >> M.J. Kuhn: Right. They're all great questions. Oh, man. I have a lot of advice for (all laugh) my previous self. I think probably the biggest piece of advice for regarding like the debut process. Specifically is to chill out. I am the same. My partner is right there. He knows. I'm not a chill person. So, you know, that's not my strong suit is chilling out. But there is when you're going through a traditional publishing house, there is just so much that is outside of your control, and there is no way to bring it inside of your control, no matter how much you stress out about it. So I think that I don't know if I would take that advice from myself, but I would give it. I think that's probably the biggest one for me (laughs). >> Chelsea Abdullah: Yeah, I think I mean sort of along those lines, just the idea of knowing that things are going to be outside of your control. control. It's one of the most incredible things. Because everything that happens to the story, you know, how readers pick up on it, what it means to them. Those are all things that you can't control. And it's incredible then when readers reach out to you, and tell you how much the story meant to them, or, you know, when you see the book on a shelf, like it's one of the most incredible things to know that that happened Because, you know, I mean, we're not in control of how the readership picks up the book if they fall in love with it. So those reactions are incredibly magical. But it's also terrifying because you go from, you know, working on a story for five years and controlling every single thing about it, to suddenly not knowing what how it's going to do out in the world. And letting go of that, I think, it's a learning experience. It's something that for me, like, I had to learn over many months. Because I think once you enter that process, you lose more and more control. And again, it's like really incredible because you see the book on shelves and, you know, like, oh, I didn't do that. But it's kind of amazing that's happening. You know, I wrote the book. (laughs) But I'm not the one who's putting it out there on the shelf. But if I had gone into the process knowing that and knowing to like have these expectations, I might have been able to weather that process a little better (laughs). >> Ashley Dickerson: Awesome. Well, you guys have been lovely. I appreciate you guys so much. I appreciate your books. Throughout the trauma, they gave me warm, fuzzy feelings. So this is my way of saying thank you guys for tuning in to our lovely talk. Again, this is Chelsea Abdullah. This is M.J. Kuhn, the Stardust Thief Among Thieves. They're having a signing 1 to 2 p.m. Line 11 and line 12. Yes. And their books are definitely coming out. Please, please, please get their books. Definitely get the second book. Follow them. They're amazing. Don't follow them in real life, please. (all laugh) But thank you guys for coming. (audience applauds) Thank you guys. (instrumental music)