>> Eric Deggans: All right.
So I guess we're going to get
started. My name is Eric
Deggans, and I'm TV critic and
media analyst for National
Public Radio. And I just want
to officially welcome all of you
to the Library of Congress’s
National Book Festival.
I’ve been doing this for a
while, and it was a little
disappointing to not be able to
see folks in person last year.
So it is so amazing to see you
in person again after a little
bit of time away. So thank you
for joining us.
The name of our program is "How
Racism Happens," and we'll get
to that in a minute. But I want
to introduce my panelists here,
Linda Villarosa, journalism
professor at City University of
New York, former executive
editor of Essence magazine, and
author of "Under the Skin, The
Hidden Toll of Racism on Our
Lives and on the Health of Our
Nation."
And next to her is Robert
Samuels, national politics
reporter for The Washington
Post, self-proclaimed figure
skating guru at The Washington
Post.
We're going to have to find
some time to get into that.
And I met Robert when he was an
intern at the Saint Petersburg
Times so long ago.
But now he's co-author of this
amazing book, "His name is
George Floyd: One Man's Life
and the Struggle for Racial
Justice.” So, first of all, I
hope you guys are going to pick
up both of these books. We're
going talk a lot about what's in
them. But this idea, how racism
happens, that sounds like a
question-- like, once you've
answered that, you've answered
racism. So, Linda, what is it?
What's the answer? How does
racism happen?
>> Linda Villarosa: Well, first,
thank you, for--
I'm so happy to be in
conversation with both of you.
Thank you for coming out so
early.
Thank you for every--everyone
who reads, all the librarians
and volunteers. This is my
first time here because I write
really slowly, so thanks for
your patience.
>> Eric Deggans: That's okay. I
read very slowly, so.
[Laughing]
>> Linda Villarosa: Well, I
think in healthcare
particularly, racism doesn't
happen on purpose most of the
time. And it happens, and I was
thinking about this because of
COVID when things were very
hectic, when things were,
especially at the beginning of
the epidemic, when no one quite
knew what was going on. Doctors
didn't have, and other
healthcare providers didn't
have, enough protective gear,
and everything was really
stressful. And I remember
interviewing one of my sources
who studies race and medicine,
who said this is going to be a
huge problem because when things
get really stressed, the kind
of implicit bias that all of us
have that is baked into our
institutions, our lives, our
work in America, that's when it
comes up, when you don't
understand because you're
really stressed out and it's not
in the forefront of your mind.
>> Eric Deggans: Yeah.
And, you know, so one statistic
that you have in the book really
struck me. College-educated
Black mothers are more likely to
die, almost die, or lose babies
than white mothers who didn't
finish high school. And so
there's this idea in your book,
it's so well laid out, that
there is a cost to the racism
that many of us experience that
goes, that gives us bad health
outcomes, that goes beyond
socioeconomic status or
education or any of those
things.
And you talk in the book about a
moment when somebody sort of,
when you sort of realize that
this was what was going on.
Could you talk a little bit
about that?
[...]
>> Linda Villarosa: Okay.
I think there's this
longstanding idea that poor
health outcomes in our country
are only due to poverty.
And certainly poverty makes
everything worse.
But the statistic you said was
really what made me write this
book because I was so surprised
by that because it was so, you
know, the idea is so ingrained,
that it's poor women and
birthing people who lose their
babies or die or almost die
because of pregnancy.
And it seems like so weird in
America, where we have the most
expensive healthcare in the
world, that that happens.
So when I saw that statistic, I
heard about it on--
I play soccer. I know,
don’t ask.
Figure skating, soccer.
>> Eric Deggans: Oh,
we're going to ask.
[Laughing]
>> Linda Villarosa: And one of
my teammates on my soccer team
started telling me that, you
know, this whole thing, their
education doesn’t protect Black
birthing people.
And I did not believe her.
And I remember she said, a
Black woman with a master's
degree, just like you said, and
she turned to me and she said,
“Don't you have a master's
degree?” You yourself are more
likely to die, almost die, or
lose your baby than your white
counterpart with an eighth
grade education.
And I found that so shocking
that I said what we know is
wrong about the idea that it's
only because of poverty, not to
downplay the-- everything
terrible that comes with
poverty, but to also say that's
not the only answer to poor
health outcomes in America for
Black people.
>> Eric Deggans: Right.
And so now, Robert, I'm going
to turn to you and ask you the
question that solves racism.
How does racism happen from
your standpoint?
>> Robert Samuels: Well, in our
book, we
not just look at the life of
George
Floyd, but we go back seven
generations to look at his
family's life, and we think
about all of the institutions
that really are supposed to
comprise our social safety net,
the things that are supposed to
boost us in life, and how often
they weren't there to help not
just the family of George Floyd,
but millions of people like
George Floyd
who are Black in this country.
So when I think about
how racism happens, first of
all, it happens slowly, right?
I think a lot of times when we
think about these sorts of
issues, we tend to think of
people in robes on horses coming
and doing nefarious things to
people of color.
But that's not the only way,
right?
It encompasses people who might
not be intentional but are
playing into a history and
stereotypes and biases that are
baked in. The other thing is
racism continues to happen
because it accrues, right?
One of the famous, one of the
things that I think about all
the time is when I was speaking
with a public health expert
about the health impact of
race, he goes, he said to me,
“You know, Robert, at some
point, everything piles up.”
The fact that we have not
thought about and acknowledged
and confronted some of the
historical injustices allow them
to continue. And at some point,
there's a breaking point.
So it happens slowly and it
accrues.
>> Eric Deggans: And what's
interesting to me about both of
your books, but particularly
your work, Robert, is we know
this stuff, right? We say this
all the time that, you know,
there's a history of racism
that disenfranchises families
and means that people at the
end of that are trapped in
poverty. But you went back and
you proved it.
I mean, you found his
great-great grandfather, Hillery
Thomas Stewart was his name?
>> Robert Samuels: Yes.
>> Eric Deggans: Tell them
a little bit
about who he was and his tragic
story.
>> Robert Samuels: So Hillery
Thomas Stewart was George
Floyd's great great
grandfather. He is the first
person, when we went through
all the historical documents and
looked at all the microfiche
and all of those things, he was
the first person that we know
was emancipated.
He was not born free.
He was enslaved, and he was an
industrious man.
And over the course of his life,
he was emancipated at 8 years
old, he accrued over 500 acres
of land in eastern North
Carolina, which, if you're from
a city, if you're a city boy
like me, does not mean a lot.
But 500 acres of land would
have meant he would have been in
the top 2 percent of
landowners, Black landowners in
North Carolina. He was very
industrious.
So his family was on the way to
inherit a great history, right?
We see this happen all the time
in families, particularly in the
South. But before he's able to
make one single
intergenerational transfer,
which is how we transfer wealth
primarily through this country,
all that land is stolen from
him, not in one swift swoop,
but through a series of tax
schemes, documents he couldn't
read, sales that were made.
And he could not read because
it was illegal for him to learn
how to read, right?
And so before he can make that
transfer, he loses everything
and dies a pauper. Now, what
does that mean?
Well, it means he can't pass on
wealth, right?
But it means he's then, his
family is then put into the
abusive system of sharecropping
in which they're never allowed
to get ahead. And so how does
George Floyd enter into the
world poor? It's not because he
came from a family or a line of
people who didn't like to work
or who are lazy.
They were industrious people.
Whenever a deal was made, and
we go through so many of these
in the book, whenever a deal
was made with the people who
owned the land, they did it and
they completed the tasks in an
exceeding fashion, and still
they ended up poor.
So you think about not just the
economic impact of that, but you
think about what that does to
what a family learns about
America and the mobility that
they have in this country.
>> Eric Deggans: Right. So one
of the answers to how racism
happens is that it's systemic
and it benefits someone, right?
And so how do we unwind that?
How do we even recognize that?
I mean, one of the things that
strikes me about both your books
is that you are trying to show
people that these dynamics that
we talk about in an academic
sense actually exist.
You're proving that they exist.
And I wonder, did you ever have
any problems convincing people
that what you were trying to
show actually existed, that this
is actually an issue?
>> Linda Villarosa: I have a
lot of
problems with that, especially
among healthcare providers and
physicians. And I tell the
story in my book is after I
wrote the “Why America's Black
Mothers and Babies Are in a Life
or Death Crisis” with the
centerpiece being the statistic
about how education doesn't
protect Black birthing people, I
made a presentation at a
hospital, I
was invited, in the Midwest.
And it was the it was the OBGYN
grand rounds.
So I went in already to really
dig in with what I had learned.
And the first question I got
asked was why did the physician
let you into the labor and
delivery room to observe what I
observed there, which was
mistreatment?
And I thought, wait a minute, I
have just laid out this whole
tragedy of Black infant and
maternal mortality in America.
And the doctor, the first thing
he said was that.
And then the rest of my time
there was the physicians sort of
sharing myths about Black women
that I had already dashed in the
story one by one.
And the one that was the most
galling, one was that, oh, the
reason Black maternal and
infant mortality is so high is
because of genetics.
I was like, no, I proved that
in the story.
Go look, here's the page
number.
And then the next was Black
women lack a kind of kinship.
And I was like, Black women,
how are you saying that as a
group of people? It was very
strange.
And by the end, I was so
stressed.
I just thought I think I have
lost probably seven hours off of
my life in this one hour in
here.
I'm going to leave and they can
just read my story.
But that was another reason to,
for me to write that book was to
sort of here's something that
disproves these kind of myths
that are embedded in the
healthcare system itself and
also a way to lift up the
stories of people who have bad
experiences and they're told,
no, it's you.
>> Eric Deggans: Right. Well, I
mean, number one, the thing that
occurs to me is that after you
write a book like this where you
say basically that all the
racist microaggressions and
aggression aggressions that we
have to deal with take years off
our life and have impacts on
our health.
When you go through something
like that, are you like, oh,
man, that's anotoher two years
gone?
>> Linda Villarosa: I am. I’m
looking at my watch.
I do. And I'm like let's avoid
those because, you know, that
is, you know, it's been proven.
The idea is weathering, the
idea that the lived experience
of dealing with discrimination,
especially for Black people who
have been most studied, creates
a kind of accelerated aging that
does take years off your life.
And it may explain some of the
health disparities that we have
in America.
>> Eric Deggans:
Yeah, and you talked about
weathering, and you also talked
about high-level coping, or?
>> Linda Villarosa: Yes.
>> Eric Deggans: Can you talk
a little bit about that, that
concept too?
>> Linda Villarosa: So that's
sort of interweaved with
weathering, and it's the idea,
so if something happens to you,
you know, a microaggression or
a macroaggression, your body
kicks into the fight or flight
syndrome, which is totally
healthy. That's really good.
And it's like, it causes you to
run, to leave the space.
Your heart rate goes up, your
blood pressure goes up, your
stress hormones rise.
The problem is is when it
happens over and over and over
again because you're dealing,
coping with these kinds of
aggressions. And that's why
your system shouldn't be kicking
in that way so often.
Then you end up with a kind of
accelerated aging.
>> Eric Deggans: Wow.
>> Linda Villarosa: And it's
been shown in, there's been
really good research, very good
data about this that shows that
that can cause poor birth
outcomes
and even lower life expectancy.
>> Eric Deggans:
Yeah. So, Robert, you wrote in a
separate article that I saw in
The Washington Post
that you and your co-author
gained a deeper understanding of
racism as a result of working
on this book.
>> Robert Samuels: Yeah.
>> Eric Deggans: Now you may
have talked about it a little
bit earlier, but can you give us
a little more on that? What did
you learn about racism as a
result of pulling this book
together?
>> Robert Samuels: Well, I think
one thing that I want people to
be sure about is that Tolu and
I, we didn't go into looking at
the life of George Floyd to
prove an actual thesis.
We went in because we had a
question, and that question was
what can we learn about
systemic racism through George
Floyd's life? And the first
person, if I'm being honest,
that I had to convince, was
myself, that there had to be,
that there were these
connections, right?
Because you speak with super
smart people about things like
high-stress coping, about the
impact that the resistance to
integration had on school
funding, about how police
officers are taught, right?
And you hear about them in
these incredibly academic, sort
of high-minded ways.
And then you meet people who
lived in George Floyd's
neighborhood, and you see them
moving, and you see them
operating without any of these
understandings, right, without
any of that background.
And you start seeing all of
those things tangibly operating
and shaping the way they view
their lives and what they can
do. And this happened across
income.
One of George Floyd's best
friends, he was a pharmacist.
He lived, didn't live in the
housing projects, but he lived
near the housing projects
because he lived in a redlined
community. It was segregated
because the government suggested
it should be that way. And
those things really began to
make clear sort of these
tangible impacts of it.
The second thing that became so
clear to me happened after
George Floyd died, and I was
spending time with his brother,
Philonise Floyd, and the last
girlfriend he had, whose name
was Courtney Ross, who's a
white woman.
And it was probably two weeks
into the trial, which had been
just emotionally draining.
And I went to church with
Philonise, and Philonise had a
breakdown in the church
thinking about his brother.
And then I was supposed to meet
Courtney, who was speaking at a
rally, and it was the first
time she was speaking in public.
She was very hesitant because
she didn't want to cause a
mistrial. And there were all of
these mothers and lovers there
who had lost loved ones to the
hands of the police.
And they lost their loved ones
in ways that were similar to
George Floyd, and nothing
happened because there are no
cameras then. They had no
agency .
There was no social media.
So they told these stories, and
no one had believed them.
And so I'm there and I'm
watching this interaction, and
I'm getting kind of
uncomfortable because one of--
one of the moms, she looks like
my mom.
And I turned to our
photographer at the time and I
said, “You know, I think I'm
done for the day.
I'm not sure I can handle any
more of this.” And before we
could get to the car, there was
a text message that started to
be shared around, and it said,
“They've killed another one.”
And that was a young Black boy
named Daunte Wright, who--
the police officer mistook her
Taser for a gun, and she shot
and killed him. And all those
mothers who are mourning their
child, they didn't miss a step.
They got in their cars and they
moved to the place where that
incident happened. And when I
saw this happening, it began to
make clear to me that racism in
this country is not simply the
original sin or the human
stain, as Roth once said, that
it moves as a force.
It's pernicious, it’s
pervasive.
And it started to feel that if
there was not an actual
acknowledgment or confrontation
of American history, it would be
something that would envelope
all of us, not just people of
color. Courtney Ross was a
white woman.
There are people, and I think
that really deepened my sense of
mission and it heightened my
understanding of how it moves
because it was not just
something you could beat with a
Herculean effort, if you could
cope.
It kept on moving.
>> Linda Villarosa: I wanted to
add
something about community
because I, well, thank you for
sharing that, about community
and sort of the what you were
talking about, wealth, how hard
it is to accumulate wealth in
some of our communities.
And I think we've so long been
blamed for that without a clear
understanding of redlining and
and other sort of barriers.
And I remember in 2020, right
before the pandemic started, I
learned that where my mother
was from in Chicago, Englewood,
people lived to age 60.
And then nine miles north, they
lived to age 90 in the same
city. And my mom and I went
back.
I said, “Let's go back to your
community and see,” because my
mom's so proud of growing up on
the south side of Chicago.
And I remember going back and
my mom had a list of places
where we were going to visit.
So she said, “We're going to go
to the church where I got
married to your father.
We're going to go to the place,
my first place your grandfather
bought.” All these places, so
many of them were gone.
They were erased. By the end of
the trip, I remember thinking,
because my mom was so, her
elementary school where she
went, Lorraine Hansberry,
boarded up.
And even the school that I went
to until I was 10, Harvard
Elementary School, all the
houses around them were
abandoned. And I remember
saying, “Mom, what happened
here? What? What happened?”
Because it looked more like
Mississippi, where her parents
were from.
And when we looked into it, it
was not only redlined, but it
was subject to contract buying,
which meant that Black people
couldn't buy homes with a
mortgage.
You had to buy on a contract,
so you were subject to losing
that. So there was never an
accumulation of wealth there,
couldn't transfer it.
So that brought down the health
status.
After I wrote about this, then
I went back and found out it
also had some of the highest
levels of COVID in the city.
>> Eric Deggans: Yeah.
Wow. And I have to say, you
know, reading both of these
books, I got so angry.
I got pissed. I don't know how
you can hear these stories.
I mean, when you hear about how
George Floyd's
great-great-grandfather got
cheated out of all that wealth.
And then you come all the way
to his conversation with Derek
Chauvin and you hear that he
was claustrophobic because he
had been in jail before and he
was afraid of the police, and
that's why he was freaking out
and they paid no attention to
it. And then we hear about your
experiences, you know, being
pregnant and taking care of
yourself as well as you can and
still having problems.
I just got so angry and I
couldn't believe that this isn't
a major, that this isn't some
sort of major crusade that we're
all talking about every day.
How did you guys work on these
books without drowning in the
anger of it all and the
injustice of it all?
>> Robert Samuels: Oh, for me,
it wasn't just the
great-grandfather, right?
One of the hard things, we
dealt with people who had seen
the most horrible thing they
could imagine in real time.
[...]
And they also had these
histories, these really
horrifying histories of things
that continue to happen.
And our book is filled with
strivers.
It's filled with people who
continue to believe that
something good could happen in
America if they continue to try.
And a part of that is angering,
right, because you see that so
many of the systems that
interacted with George Floyd and
the people he loved and the
people he lived with would not
meet him halfway. But I also
thought about the incredible
persistence and the beauty that
continued to happen, that
we have this debate.
We have this debate I have with
my college roommate, who's a
Republican, about whether this
book is a sad book.
And he saw it as being very sad
because he saw it, he saw racism
as this problem that could not
be defeated.
And he didn't want to have to
deal with it.
I thanked him for reading the
book.
But that's not how I saw it
because I don't think that's how
the people who I interviewed
saw it.
[...]
One of the last things that we
know George Floyd wrote to
himself, George Floyd was a
writer, was he had COVID.
He was still dealing with his
drug dependency issue.
We go into why it was so hard
for him to get treatment in the
book. He had lost his job as a
security guard because
everything was shut down.
Also, almost one in two Black
Americans in Minnesota lost
their jobs during the beginning
days of COVID.
And he's talking about these
problems.
And at the end of the work, he
says, “Man, life really sucks,
but life never sucks.” And I
think about that all the time,
right, that even when he was in
a dark moment, not knowing that
he would die the way he was
going to die, he believed that
he was going to come out of it.
And so there was a lot of pride
and persistence.
So I just felt like I couldn't
get angry, like there was a
great story that needed to be
shared with the world.
[...]
>> Linda Villarosa: I agree
with you.
And one of my favorite parts of
my book is finding the Relf
sisters. So the Relf sisters
were at 12 and 14 in Montgomery,
Alabama, in 1973 sterilized
against their parents’ will and
without their parents’ consent.
And they became a cause.
They went to court for this.
They won the court case, which
uncovered the idea that 100,000
other women in the South had
also been sterilized, mostly
Black women, and it changed the
law.
So you had to have informed
consent for sterilization.
But then the Relf family never
got any money for it.
So they kind of, no one knew
where they were.
So I found them in Montgomery.
I interviewed them, put them in
the book.
It also, the story also got
excerpted in The New York Times
magazine as a cover story.
They still live in public
housing together.
They're in their 60s, obviously
never had children.
They had dolls around their
house to remind them of, I
guess, you know, to have
children, dolls.
Beautiful. Two wonderful women.
After the story ran, I got this
strange email from a woman in
Seattle, and she said, “Please
call me.” So she's a white woman
whose husband is a tech
entrepreneur.
So she said, “I'm a white
person.
I've accumulated wealth
throughout my life.
I want to help the Relf
sisters.” And I said, “Oh.” She
said, “I want to give them a
lot of money.” And so then all I
did was ask, “Are you just
giving a lot of that money to
one of them, or are you going
to give each of them that amount
of money?” So she gave each of
them that amount of money.
>> Linda Villarosa: So I went
down to do
a reading in Montgomery, and
the woman was on the phone and
told them about the money she
was giving them.
They broke down. They were so
happy.
They couldn’t believe it.
And my, the the end of the
story is the next day they
called me and they said,
“Linda, where's our money?
We want a new couch.” I just
thought that made it, you know,
the government never apologized
to them.
They never got any kind of
reparations for that.
But some kind person gave them
some money, which really turned
their life around.
>> Robert Samuls: Yeah. Well, 
can I jump in for a little?
>> Robert Samuels: Because I
think this is really interesting
You know, one of the things,
I teach a
class at Wake Forest
University, and one of the
principles, the code principles
of journalism that I think
about, is, tell them,
especially when you're dealing
with marginalized people, avoid
lurid curiosity, right?
And I think one of the things
that sometimes gets lost is that
we don't tell stories for the
simple idea that this is
interesting and it makes our
lives harder or more
entertaining and gives us stuff
to talk about at the bar.
We do it because we believe that
when people read and they read
truth told in a full and human
and honest way, right, things
can start to move. And, you
know, there are so many
instances that you go and you
traffic into some of these
stories because you still
believe that that can happen.
And I think that's an important
thing for,
to say and to keep in mind 
about,
especially when we talk about
topics that are so heavy.
>> Eric Deggans:
Definitely.
So I want to let you guys know
that we're going to take
questions at the end of this Q
and A with me.
So be thinking about what you
might want to ask.
And at a certain point, I'm
going to stop and get you guys
to line up at these
microphones, and we'll take as
many questions as we can before
the session ends.
So be thinking about your
questions now, and we'll get you
to line up in just a little
bit.
So what's striking me about this
moment, and I think about this
particularly in relation to
George Floyd, is that we have
these moments that kind of
puncture our complacency and
then all of a sudden people are
ready to react.
They're ready to do something
about these issues that you guys
have--have outlined so well in
your books, and then it recedes
and then the system figures out
a way to equivocate or explain
or minimize. And it feels like
we're in the middle of that now.
Like we had we had this flurry
of reckoning in the wake of
George's death. And now people
are tired of hearing about
racism. They're tired of
hearing about we need to do
something. And I wonder if you
feel that.
And if you feel that, how do we
fight that?
>> Robert Samuels: Absolutely.
I feel it acutely.
One of the things, I think one
of the big questions that people
have is why do I need to read
about George Floyd?
I know he's murdered.
He's done. It was bad.
What Derek Chauvin did was
horrible.
I get that, right?
And one of the things that we
try to remind folks is that
George Floyd's story, what he
went through, how he went
through, was important before
he had ever met Derek Chauvin,
right? And that's because there
are millions of bright boys,
Black boys brimming with
potential who are living lives
like George Floyd. And if we
don't understand some of the
institutions that await them
and how biases can hinder their
hopes and dreams, then we're
not creating the America we want
to create. The other thing to
remember is that Derek Chauvin
was not born of an evil ilk.
He too, right, had been
influenced by a lack of history,
a lack of understanding, a lack
of empathy that was not
delivered to him when he was
training to be a police officer.
There are untold amounts of
police officers who are like
Derek Chauvin. There are untold
amounts of white people who are
like Derek Chauvin. The
infection that racism can bring
upon a system hurts them too.
It is also true, right, that
after the summer of 2020, the
support for Black Lives Matter
went back to the levels that it
was before 2020.
There is a study from Pew this
week that came out that said
more than 60 percent of Black
Americans do not believe their
lives have changed
significantly since, right?
So I think what that shows is
an importance of telling the
stories, but also telling them
honestly and with nuance and
history. We did not set out to
right systemic racism, right?
But I think one of the important
things is to think of it also as
a work of history and talking
about the fullness of it.
And I think when you sort of
expand the conversation, you can
still continue to make headway.
>> Eric Deggans: Linda, what do
you think?
>> Linda Villarosa: I like when
institutions are forced to
grapple with it, and I'm really
impressed with the Department of
Health in New York City, where
our former health commissioner
was a Black woman who mandated
anti-racism training for all
7,000 members, employees, and
they had to grapple with it.
And I asked her, “How did that
go?” And I was thinking she
would be self-congratulatory.
She was like, “It was really
difficult. People didn't, some
people didn't want to do it,
but I put my foot down and I
said, ‘We have to do this so
we're better because it's
important.’” The state of
California now, it started with
all people who, healthcare
providers who work with birthing
people have to go through some
kind of anti-racism, anti-bias
training at this point because
of the racial reckoning.
Now continuing medical education
for all healthcare providers
must include anti-racism
training, and it's mandated by
law. So I think that it's
important, that it sometimes
comes from the top down and
sometimes, like we're saying,
comes from a groundswell of
people insisting on this.
>> Eric Deggans: You know what
struck me about your book?
You know, there's a moment
where you talk about being aware
of the ways in which Black
mothers, the risks that they
take when they're pregnant.
So when you got pregnant, you
were going to be healthy, you
were going to take vitamins,
you were going to work out, you
were going to do everything
right, and you still had a
low-weight baby.
And so that made me think, man,
if the if the author of “Under
the Skin” can't can't escape
this, like how do we unwind
this? How does an individual
person of color unwind the toll
that racism takes on their
health?
>> Linda Villarosa: I think what
really struck me was the
reviewer in The New York Times
Book Review also had a near
tragic birth, and she wrote
about it in the middle of the
review of my book.
And she said, “I had read your
story, and I was trying to do
everything right.” So I think
the one thing is, is telling
these stories and also proving
that it's not our fault is
important to just make it feel
like we're not blaming ourselves
anymore. And this is not an
individual problem.
It's a problem that we have to
grapple with as a society and as
a healthcare system. But as
individuals, we have to take
care of ourselves and each
other.
My, I had people around me,
thank God, because I had to have
my pregnancy induced because my
baby wasn't thriving inside, and
I was happy that I had a doctor
I could talk to.
My mother came, flew in from
Denver and was with me.
My baby was so small, she fit
in the palm of my hand.
Now she's taller than me and
really healthy and smart.
But I always thought what
happened here?
Is this because of toxic
stress?
What happened to me?
And I'm only a laboratory of
one.
But at some point, you hear so
many stories like this they
begin to add up. And I'm happy
that there is legislation about
this. It hasn't passed yet, but
there is legislation to say
we've got to really attack
this.
And I see individual states,
individual hospital systems and
things like that trying to deal
with this problem and figure out
what's going on.
>> Eric Deggans: All right.
I'm going to ask folks from the
audience to start to line up at
these microphones if you have
questions because we want to
hear from you as well.
And then I'm going to ask a
couple more questions, and then
we'll get you guys involved.
So why don’t you start lining
up?
[...]
This is, what strikes me about
your book, Robert, and what was
so affecting to me was that you
found all of these sort of
historical things that we sort
of know about from history
books, from the redemption to
the failure of the war on drugs,
to the problems with Oxycodone
addiction, to what happened in
COVID, and the disproportionate
effects on people of color, and
you connected all of it to
George Floyd's life, which I
thought was kind of amazing.
Can you talk a little bit about
just the process of creating
this book? And when did you
sort of realize that all these
major historical events tied
into his life?
>> Robert Samuels: Right.
I mean, as a journalist, it was
astounding to think about,
right? And we started first
talking to different sorts of
people who are smarter than us,
who are well-versed historians,
experts, just about things to
look out for, you know.
The first thing I did was I
talked to someone about the
history of hospital systems in
the three places where we had
known George Floyd lived his
life.
We spoke with experts on
education who are looking at
these sorts of issues. And then
we started talking to people who
had known George Floyd or had
grown up in the communities that
he had grown up in or had gone
to rehab with him.
And I was stunned at so many
points that they'd say these
things and there'd be this
direct connection between what I
had been speaking about with a
public health expert or with a
genealogist. Now, I think it's
also important to note that
George Floyd was not the
Forrest Gump of systemic racism,
right? It's not that he just
happened to be in the right
place at the right time, right?
I think going through a lot of
this story is that
if you looked at people,
George Floyd was 46 years old
when he was killed.
People at that time who are
born a little bit after the
Civil Rights Movement, after
the end of the Civil Rights
Movement, you'd start to see
them dealing with a bunch of
those things and even more so,
right?
I remember talking with, we were
trying to figure out, I wanted
to make sure that there are
things within the text that were
not just relevant to people who
are completely ignorant about
how racism operates, right?
I wanted to make sure that
people were learning about
everything. I remember having
this conversation with my mother
about weathering.
And my mother is from the
island of Jamaica, and she came.
She worked as a hairdresser,
and she was trying to figure out
how to make it in America. She
ended up with sarcoidosis, and
I was sort of describing what I
learned.
And she goes, “I think that
happened to me, right?” And it's
just one of those moments.
And then there were times where
you're looking like, well, what
George Floyd was feeling was
something that I was feeling
too. Particularly when you
think about the pain and the
hardship of living with the
fact that one day might be your
last. You might meet the wrong
police officer.
You might see someone who
doesn't understand you, and that
could be it. And being able to
tell that kind of story was
really illuminating for all of
us.
So we started on the outside.
We kept moving in, and then
when we moved in, we went back
out and we spoke with the mayor
and the governor and President
Joe Biden about what they’re
going to do,
so that's how we did it.
>> Eric Deggans: That's
amazing.
And, you know, the thing that
struck me too was, like, if you
can produce a book like this
about George Floyd, you know,
what would the book about
Philando Castile say?
Or, you know, what would the
book about Tamir Rice say?
You know, I almost want to know
the histories of all these
people because I'm sure, you
know, you could tell a similar
story about them as well.
>> Robert Samuels: Right. That's
the challenge, right?
I think the big takeaway here
is that if we started to examine
folks in their fullness, and
this is a challenge, one, for
daily journalism, right, before
they die, you might have a
better understanding of why
people live the lives they did
after they die, right?
I think, you know, when I was a
cops reporter, you're told,
“Just look at a police record
and write up what they say,”
right? If you looked at George
Floyd's police record, you'd
have a very different
understanding of who he was.
And when we went out and we
dove in, including speaking to
some of the people who are the
victims of crimes that had been
alleged that George Floyd did,
they told an entirely different
story. So it's just this
reminder to think deeper and to
try to see people in their full
humanity.
>> Eric Deggans: All right.
Well, let's go
to the person from the audience
who wants to ask a question.
If you could just tell us
quickly who you are
and give us your question.
>> Nicole Porter: Yeah,
Thank you so much.
I'm Nicole Porter. I actually
work at the
Sentencing Project, which is a
research and advocacy group
based here in D.C.
And when I think of George
Floyd, I'm from Houston, number
one. And also I think of him as
someone who grew up during the
mass incarceration generation.
So, you know, in your comments,
Robert, you talk about why it's
an important story to tell, to
inform a history of structural
racism or to understand
structural racism.
But I'm wondering what the book
also shows or demonstrates to
other George Floyds, the
millions of people who were
caught up and have been caught
up and are still living with the
harms of mass incarceration
today.
>> Robert Samuels: Yeah.
Well, the first thing I think
is an affirmation about what
actually happened to them.
George Floyd spent more than a
third of his life behind bars.
Six of the arrests, six of the
officers who had arrested or
detained George Floyd had been
later arrested themselves for
corruption. And it also details
some of the difficulties that
had been had after George Floyd
got out of prison.
He wasn't eligible for a
professional license in Texas,
which meant he wasn't eligible
for a third of the jobs in
Texas. So one of the things
that the book attempts to do is
it tries to elucidate some of
those things to make it clear
not just that it was terrible
that all these people were
locked up. It goes to why they
were, why it was unfair or
disparate. And it also goes
through the history of those who
those who tried to make it.
And some of his friends did
succeed,
so there's a roadmap for them
as well.
>> Eric Deggans: So I'm being
told that
they want us to wrap it up. But
I want to take one more question
right here.
>> Steve Jones: Hi. My name is
Steve Jones.
Thank you both for your work.
I wanted to get your comments
on what, how do we experience
both being an individual and
being impacted by systems.
I think part of the challenge
is, you know, for me, it was
hard to understand and accept
how much I am impacted by the
systems that influence me, that
I'm not the captain of my own
ship, you know, that a lot of
the ways I think and behave are
impacted by the systems and
structures around me.
[...]
>> Linda Villarosa: Well, I
agree with you, and it's really
hard. It's hard to think about
that.
You know, when I go into the
healthcare system, knowing what
I know, I have to calm down and
say there is something that
could happen to me.
And I know a lot. I go, I'm the
person who goes into the
healthcare system with my loved
ones.
And, you know, they put a pulse
oximeter on my mother's finger.
And I know that the pulse
oximeter measures Black skin
differently because it's
calibrated for white skin.
So I'm looking at my mother and
I’m thinking, she's 91, and I'm
thinking, should I just say it?
Do I say could you do that
reading twice?
Do you know about this?
And I did it. And I saw the
person frown a little bit, and I
just tried to not be super
hostile and a complete
know-it-all. But it's hard.
It's hard when you know that.
But I was glad I was there just
to put those people a little bit
on blast so that to know, you
know what, someone's watching
you right here. And I'm asking
a lot of questions.
And my mom isn't the most, the
best in the healthcare system.
She's older, and she trusts the
system more than I do.
And so I think that it's smart
to go in with your eyes open.
>> Eric Deggans: Yeah.
And it kind of bums me out that
they didn't know that already,
that you had to tell them that.
Well, at any rate, we are out
of time.
I wish I could take more
questions.
I wish we had more time to
talk.
We didn't quite solve racism
here, but I think we found a few
good things to work on.
Once again, I want to thank my
authors, Linda Villarosa and
Robert Samuels.
“His Name is George Floyd” and
“Under the Skin.”
Do you guys know when you’re
signing? Because
I don't think they told me.
>> Robert Samuels: In 15 minutes
>> Eric Deggans: But take a
look, at 11:30?
>> Robert Samuels: 10:30.
>> Eric Deggans: Okay. They're
signing at 10:30, so stop by.
Get a copy of these books, get
them signed.
They are powerful and they will
teach you a lot.
Even if you think you know a
lot about racism and how it
works in America, they will
teach you a lot.
I'm Eric Deggans, TV critic and
media analyst for NPR.
Thanks for joining us and enjoy
the rest of the festival.
[Applause]