>> David Plylar:
Hello, my name is David Plylar
and I am a music specialist at
the Library of Congress.
And I'm here today with Sir
Stephen Hough.
And we're going to be talking a
little bit about some of the
elements of our Liszt
collection. Our library has a
very extensive body of Liszt
manuscripts and letters and
things like that, that have
recently actually been all
digitized.
So they're all available
online.
We're looking at them in person
here, but if you want to take a
closer look, you're welcome to
do so online,
or of course, come in to the
library. We'd love to have you.
So welcome.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Thank you David. Well, my
goodness, you know, just a piece
of plastic between me and Liszt
here in this.
Yeah. So we're looking at these
sketches of the or corrections
to the first piano concerto.
How many versions of this piece
are there, do we know?
>> David Plylar:
I don't know, but I
believe that there were some
early sketches in the 1830s,
even before it became finalized
in the 1850s.
And one of the...
We have an earlier version of
this, actually, that I'll open
up that has an interesting
element to it that before we
look at that one that you can
see with the title page, first
of all, it's a very modern
fonts.
[Laughs]
Yeah, it's Liszt with two
tone, but it says "Premier
Concerto Symphonique."
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
But he took out the symphonique
because it's not really a
symphonic, is it? I mean, you
don't feel this is like a
symphony. It's very much the
piano concerto, the pianist,
center stage.
So this looks to me like
the fine...
Well, the final version,
although not the [vocalizing].
>> David Plylar:
No. Yeah. So this is definitely
an earlier version and I'm not
sure as you can see we can go
look through it.
But there's quite a few
cancelled passages.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Oh, yes.
>> David Plylar: 
That would be very
interesting to have 
somebody play and...
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Indeed and this looks really...
Yeah, this looks wonderful
actually I must say. Although
that looks similar.
Yeah, it's almost like what we
saw with Rachmaninoff is that
he's taking out repetitions of
things, but that's, you know,
that's a form of decoration,
isn't it?
Repetition, which is that can
have a very important force in
the structure of a whole piece.
>> David Plylar:
Especially for Liszt, because he
often would do two
repeats of an idea as
a developmental kind of
component. And so this
is Ralph's handwriting.
But so it's very beautiful,
clean
and Ralph is just to put a plug
in I think he's a composer
that's worth looking at for
those of you who don't know him.
But here has this very clear
writing.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
What interests me is
that the annotations are in
German. But obviously Liszt
wrote this piece with French, I
mean the title page and
everything else.
So there you have that
difference
I think. French was the language
that Liszt was most comfortable
with, although he spoke a
number.
>> David Plylar:
I think it has to do with the
timing of this, because I think
that he engaged Ralph when
he was in Weimar.
And so that's just 
my guess but...
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
But this is something I noticed
straight away that is he both
made it more glittery and
easier to play.
And that's the rule with Liszt
of "Transcendental Études"
exactly that. The second version
 are impossibly difficult.
The third version sound more
difficult still, but are easier
to play. He was
developing the technique of the
piano. How you play the
instrument, how you make
something effective.
So here you just have these
rather awkward double note
arpeggio things, and in the
final version he has the left
hand [vocalizing] 
articulating the half
beats there, which, you know in
an orchestral setting just
gives rhythm, gives body to the
sound. You think these are
Ralph's changes, like the switch
from the f-sharp to the c-sharp
 there?
>> David Plylar:
No, these are Liszt's
annotations. That's 
our understanding.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
He had enough
f-sharps
in the chord.
He needed the c-sharps to fill
it out. Interesting.
>> David Plylar:
So this is just an example of
one of the... 
I was just thinking
about this earlier. What's the
difference between this draft
and a draft that we have
corrections for
underneath that I'll just
for the sake of time, I'll just
pull up and of course, you'll
be welcome to 
look at it further.
So these are a set of
corrections.
And when... let's see, 
I didn't pull the right one.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
See, this is very interesting to
me because this is where we have
the although that's a clarinet
in the final version.
It's the sort of second
subject [vocalizing].
Always a controversy because
the clarinet, as it finally is,
is a dotted eighth and a 16th,
123412341. And the piano is in
triples, 1231231.
But actually, originally they
were both dotted eighth and
16th. And I've always thought
that actually they should be
aligned whether you do it a
loose 16th or a quicker triplet,
they should meet.
And that's exactly what they do
here, is they meet because
there's no point in having one
slightly off with the other.
And that's the solo...
the two solo violins in the
final version.
Originally he had it for a
flute.
It should be rather nice on the
flute.
Composer's second choices are
not always better 
than their first.
[Laughing]
>> David Plylar:
And this is always a good point
with Liszt, though, because he
does this a number of times
where he does second, third, and
fourth versions, and often they
have their own identity distinct
from that original version.
And yeah, you're right, not
always better.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Here's where the triplets...
[Vocalizing]
But that comes about
because he wants the
accompaniment to be... 
The triplet
has more of a sort of swing to
it than the four.
The four feels square. Yeah.
>> David Plylar:
So one thing I know, it's
just been a while since I've
looked at when you look at
these older versions, you start
to doubt yourself as to whether
you're remembering what the
original is supposed to be
like.
But often at the beginning,
the octaves are triplets, 
I think. Right?
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Yeah, in the final version
you got [vocalizing],
and this version [vocalizing].
They're all duplets.
Easier but less of
a sort of swing into the leaps.
>> David Plylar:
And that makes me want to just
double check this one, but it
makes me think that perhaps
that is an earlier version that
was a corrected version of an
earlier one than this, but I'm
not sure because we don't have
all the context.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Is this
the... because this seems
incredibly thin here, just the
timpani and the trills
without even any harmonic notes
in them. I can't actually read
what that says, but 
it's also in German.
>> David Plylar: I'm afraid 
I can't either as well.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
But yeah, you're right. It's...
[vocalizing]
>> David Plylar:
So if I can find out.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: 
[inaudible] suggest
originally, rather than a 
feeling of a very free
cadenza, he maybe had more in
mind, something in tempo.
[Vocalizing]
>> David Plylar:
Well, you know another...
I thought just as an
interesting thing that we have,
that we actually just
purchased, I think, in 2018 is a
version of the "Totentanz" that
that the Busoni knew and edited.
That is and in fact we have a
letter from Busoni about it that
has... and it's also another
intermediate version from his
time in Weimar.
Busoni's letter.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Oh, that's
Busoni's letter?
>> David Plylar: Yes.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
The smell,
you can't replicate the
wonderful smell of old paper.
It's sort of basic, isn't it?
Because they say that without
trees we would have no life on
earth. We humans couldn't exist
if we didn't have trees. And of
course, paper from trees,
it's... when you're dealing with
manuscripts, you're going right
down to the foundation of who
we are in some way.
>> David Plylar:
You know, it's one of the things
with contemporary music and
you're a composer. And so I
have to ask you, do 
you write by hand or?
>> Sir Stephen Hough: I
sketch by hand?
>> David Plylar:
Sketch by hand, okay.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
But then once I've got some
shape for it, I work...
I then copy it out into
Sibelius and then I do many...
I've just sent my piano
concerto in last week to the
publisher finished. I mean,
there must have been 80 versions
online of just little
changes.
And because each time I make a
small change, I save it.
And then I send that to myself
so that it's preserved in each
stage. But what we don't have
is all the intermediate things
kept. And in fact, the sketches
I tend to throw away.
I don't know, I don't feel that
they're...
I know, now I feel maybe.
>> David Plylar:
No, yeah. Let me chastise you
there just to say that you
should. It's fantastic that you
save the intermediary versions,
because that's what I tell
every composer I meet is,
so please save as after each
section.
Because if you want to,
I mean, not that everybody has
an expectation that somebody is
going to study their music, but
if we're going to have a chance
to see what you're doing and
how you develop and how you
thought through a particular
piece, we're not going to be
able to do that if we only have
the final score.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: 
Yeah that's true. Yeah.
And some things seem really
obvious when they're done.
And yet it took a long time to
get to that obvious moment.
>> David Plylar:
Sure, sure.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Yeah.
Right. Oh, my gosh.
Well, this is Liszt not
being easy for the pianist
because people think of Liszt,
you know, the hardest music ever
written absolutely not true.
You know, a lot of Liszt is very
straightforward to play because
he knew what worked and he knew
how to make things efficient.
But in the earlier years of his
life, he just piled more and
more notes on. And here's this
ferocious double third scale
that I think any pianist would
not be...
You'd hear that in many
practice rooms
if it were the version we
played.
But interestingly, [vocalizing]
the rather than a trill. Yeah.
>> David Plylar:
So one of the fascinating
things about this version that I
think is worth just bringing
out is that so this is a set of
variations and thoughts on the
[inaudible].
And what he did was he had a 
piece called Psaume instrumental
from the 1830 that
was based on the De Profundis,
and he added that to this work,
and he actually labeled it as
such and then integrated it in
a way... here it is.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Oh, yes.
Now this he uses in one 
of the [inaudible].
He has this
thundered at the height and
that's the most dramatic
moment.
But here it is earlier or
later.
I don't know whether this...
>> David Plylar:
This would have been about
the same time, actually.
So he would have... yeah,
because he wasn't finalized
with the [inaudible].
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
That's a wonderful piece
that never gets played.
I recorded it a long time ago,
but from the [inaudible]. Yeah.
It's interesting that it's here.
>> David Plylar: And he used 
it across a number of pieces.
And then what's kind of neat to
see at the end is that...
he adds it here against the
[inaudible].
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Isn't that wonderful?
Well, it creates a drama out of
the piece, doesn't it?
Good and evil and 
actually a kind of
good maybe triumphing. In the
original version, it ends very
much with the [inaudible]
where there's no escape.
Whereas with the De Profundis,
you get this prayer for
deliverance from the day of
ire and damnation.
How does it literally... is
that the last page? No. Yeah.
So it's...
That's very interesting.
>> David Plylar:
But Busoni thought that this was
a perfectly legitimate version
of the piece that could be
performed and perhaps should be
performed. It's definitely an
interesting one to hear.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Well, he does what
Rachmaninoff does, of course,
with the Paganini, where he
puts the [inaudible] as the
secondary idea amongst that.
I mean, this is a sort of
similar idea.
>> David Plylar:
A lot of contemporary composers
always think that they have this
new idea of putting the theme
somewhere later in the piece and
don't realize that there's all
these precedents.
[Laughs]
You know, one of the
interesting things that we have,
let's take a quick look at
this. This is the proof copy of
the third book of the 
[inaudible] with Liszt's very
extensive annotations.
And he would just like with the
Rachmaninoff, he would go
through and occasionally paste
in corrections there.
So these end up becoming almost
more valuable than a first
edition, because that his
thoughts continued past the last
publication point, and yeah.
So those are lists
cancellations and things like
that that are..
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Yeah, he took out that.
That's so interesting.
This is a piece that I played
and I don't do the ossia which
he's removed. And the
arpeggiation, which everyone did
all the time in their playing
at that time.
Like the portamento in the
string playing, it was just part
of the technique of... which I
think we need to get back.
At least I can't speak for
string players, but
I think we've really lost a
color in playing because
everything is just played like
this.
And all of those pianists until
the 1940s would arpeggiate all
the time. Bartok always
arpeggiating, Rachmaninoff
himself. Bits of fingering?
Yes. You wonder why he just put
those in.
I mean, they're not
particularly revelatory, but he
felt he wanted to put them in,
so he only wants the ossia to
start a, from this bar.
>> David Plylar: And you 
don't play that ossia?
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
No, I just play the original.
I think it's just so 
stark and...
>> David Plylar: This piece 
is amazing. It's really...
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
It's a great piece.
It's making me think I should
bring it back.
I was introduced to this by
Nyiregyházi.
You know, that that recording
that came out in the 70s, I
guess. Nyiregyházi, if anyone's
listening, this is this prodigy
Hungarian pianist who spent
many years living as a homeless
person in San Francisco.
And then I think his ninth
wife, something like that,
needed medical treatment.
And so he gave a concert to
raise some money and was taped,
and it ended up being released,
I think, by CBS.
And then they asked him to make
another recording and
it's one of these. And I mean,
it's really astonishing playing.
You really do feel it's like 
Liszt himself might have played
as an older man, clangorous and
huge and bigger than you could
imagine in conception as well
as sound.
And this piece, I remember it
was CBS and it was just been
released, and I put it on and I
could say that in one minute,
it changed my life hearing that
recording. Because it just
opened a window on a way of
playing that I just never
imagined. Well, Wagner
took so much from Liszt.
>> David Plylar:
Yeah, there's the Ken Russell
film "Lisztomania,"
has Wagner as a vampire
stealing Liszt's ideas.
I'm not so sure that I would
recommend the film, but...
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Right, just a
quick look at the 
famous one, the
"Jeux d'eau à la Villa d'Este,"
which is the one that most
people have played.
There's nothing...
so this looks pretty much
like tiny little things.
Yeah, a little pedal markings.
Oh, that's just a obviously...
Yeah, that's a misprint. But he
obviously went through it
carefully, didn't he? He made 
sure. Yeah.
>> David Plylar:
Absolutely.
I just thought because we were
looking at it, this is the
earlier version of that and
it's quite unknown.
Not many people really are
aware of this, so it's worth
taking a peek. I'll let you go
ahead and...
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Wow.
Also doesn't look
so different, actually.
Oh, well, now it starts to.
Oh, yes, he did one of his sort
of marching things.
He loved these [vocalizing].
Yeah, that doesn't look...
forgive me Listz, very inspired.
I think he was right to take it
out.
[Laughing]
It's so funny in these late
pieces, you know, there's so
many incredible moments,
and then there are these weird,
banal little endings that he
just seems to have thrown on
because he wanted to finish it
and move on to something else.
Actually, the "Sonata," of
course, has a bizarrely
superficial ending in the
original version.
>> David Plylar:
The Fortississimo or something?
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Yeah. 
>> David Plylar: Yeah.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
You know, this is just...
>> David Plylar:
But then he squeezes it all in
at this ridiculously small...
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Yeah, it's interesting. Wow.
Of course, you see just these
passages where it's just chords,
but you forget that as the
piano is developing in the 19th
century, every new development
gave these chords new overtones
and new riches as the
keyboards extended and the
strings became longer and the
soundboards more vibrant.
So, you know, we would think
very little of a passage like
this where it's just a G major
chord, but for Liszt, you know,
it's like a new sound world
because the instrument is new.
Yeah. Wow. It's very, very
precious. Fantastic, gosh.
>> David Plylar:
So, I mean, I know we're running
out of time, but I just wanted
to show you maybe a couple more
things, and then we'll...
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Yeah, let's... of course
>> David Plylar: The first
[inaudible]...
which is this tiny one.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Gosh, how cute.
It's tiny little score
or little piece.
On three staves. Well, not
quite, because he just leaves
the middle one blank.
A room. Does he call
it Valse oubliée from the very
beginning or?
>> David Plylar:
I don't believe so.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: It just
says Valse, doesn't.
>> David Plylar: Yeah. The first
one was just Valse.
And then [inaudible] or
I think it was the how they
were first done.
And then it came into the
series with the romance Oubliée
as well which we
actually have here as well.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
23rd of July 1881.
>> David Plylar: And we have 
the fourth
Vergesenner Walzer as well.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Oh, this changes here.
He just does... oh, so that 
had a very ordinary ending
and then he added this
glorious...
section here with the harmonies
that are so melancholy and
strange. Well, that was a
brilliant.
Leads on in a way to Medtner's
"Forgotten Melodies,"
isn't it? Because the idea that
it's a tune you might have
remembered in the past and
somehow. Like, we have these
earworms and we don't know
where they came from.
I think there's something of
the psychology in the
[inaudible]. Not that they're
"Forgotten Waltzes,"
but it's the musical ideas are 
somehow half remembered.
So in the second [inaudible],
you feel that?
>> David Plylar: Absolutely.
You know, I think Medtner's a
great example of that with,
yeah, the opus 38 with the
"Sonata" that comes.
That beautiful opening, yeah.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Tune that
keeps coming [vocalizing].
>> David Plylar: Yeah. Do you
 play that as well, or?
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
I've worked on them,
but I never performed.
It was just the G minor 
"Sonata" is the
only Medtner I've played, 
which is a great piece.
>> David Plylar:
Yeah, well, maybe I'll just show
one more thing and then
we'll call it a day. Let's see.
The Waltz caprices.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
And the sheer amount of
ink that Liszt put on paper in
that life, as well as everything
else he did, is he must have
written every day, something.
>> David Plylar:
Absolutely.
Well, especially 
this concentrated
period. I think these were
finalized in the early 1850s.
They were started much earlier,
but so many things came to
fruition. The first three or
four years of maybe from 1848 to
1855 or so, that I don't know
how it's really possible for one
person to do that, but maybe it
was because he had settled down
in Weimar, wasn't traveling as
much.
He finally had a chance to put
everything together.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: And
he had to do something with all
of that energy that beforehand
he'd been traveling the world.
It's interesting, isn't it,
that all the expression marks
were put in later?
It's like he knew what he was
going to do.
He just wanted to get the notes
down.
So we have the ink, and then
the blue pencil comes later with
all of the fortissimo and
espressivo and all of that
[inaudible]. I guess, with the
composer who's in a rush,
the key is to get the 
notes on the page.
I mean, the expression, you
know instinctively.
You won't forget that,
whereas you will forget the
notes.
>> David Plylar:
Do you work in a similar way or
do you put everything 
down at once?
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
It varies really.
Certainly dynamics can be a
problem to decide where does the
hairpin begin?
I think when you're looking for
other people's music, maybe
you're thinking also,
well, yes, the hairpin does
begin on the B and not on the C,
you know that there is an
importance to that.
But you're also, if you're
writing for other people to
play, you're thinking, if I
write the crescendo there,
they're going to get too loud
too soon, even though that's
where it begins, I'm going to
write it there so that it
doesn't have that. But metronome
 marks are another thing.
I do like to put those in just
as a general guide, because I
think they can be helpful, even
though many people don't even
bother with them.
>> David Plylar: Sure.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: 
Chopin nocturnes,
does anyone
bother with metronome?
Chopin's extraordinary and
completely workable and
wonderful metronome marks the
d-flat nocturne
nobody. What is it?
84. All the slow movement of the
Brahms b-flat concerto never
really got an orchestra.
I mean, close, close.
Now that's 84.
It's usually sometimes almost
half the tempo for 
that movement.
But movements one, two and
four, everyone does their tempo.
But three, nobody wants to do
it.
They don't trust that it's an
Andante in two.
They somehow think it's a slow
movement, therefore 
it's slow music.
>> David Plylar:
Right. Huh?
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
But allegro and then
he scratched it out.
So there's no time signature.
[Inaudible] okay.
Oh, because this is the
introduction that he 
didn't have at first.
>> David Plylar:
Right.
This is the most 
famous of the...
>> Sir Stephen Hough: 
Yeah. Yeah.
It's a great one. Gosh.
Well, we could go on all year,
never mind all day.
But this has been
extraordinary.
I mean, it's just it feels like
the beginning of a 
journey in some ways.
>> David Plylar:
Well, thank you so much for
joining me here and looking at
these things. And if there is
anything else that you'd like to
look at, it is available online,
at least with all
 the Liszt stuff.
>> Sir Stephen Hough: 
All right, the Liszt stuff.
>> David Plylar: That is
kind of a nice resource that we
can offer. 
>> Sir Stephen Hough: Wonderful.
>> David Plylar: Thank you 
again for speaking with me.
I really appreciate it.
>> Sir Stephen Hough:
Thank you, David.