>> Carla Hayden: Good morning! I'm Carla Hayden, the librarian of Congress. [Applause] And I've been waiting almost a year to say welcome to the 2023 Library of Congress National Book Festival. [Applause] It's wonderful to be back at the Washington Convention Center and to see all the book lovers. And for those watching online, we're thrilled to have you with us too. The theme of this year's festival is "Everyone has a story" and that means you. The wonderful writers at this year's festival have great stories to tell, and they're going to share them with you all day long. But so do you, because books help broaden our world, but they can also serve as mirrors. And we hope you can ask our writers questions and meet them during today's signings. You also might know that the Library of Congress is the largest library in the world, and it's our mission to connect to all Americans. And today we're bringing together more than 70 authors, poets, novelists, historians and illustrators right here to our national capital to celebrate books and their meanings for us. From Pulitzer Prize winning biographer Beverly Gage, to actor Elliot Page. From LGBTQ+ advocate Chest and Buttigeg to Pulitzer Prize winning poet Jericho Brown to bestsellers Amor Towles and Karen McManus, and from recent Caldecott winner David Salati. To beloved novelist Luis Alberto Herrera. And NFL player Ryan Russell. There were a reflection of the diversity of readers across our nation, and they're here to tell our collective history and to share our unique stories. It's going to be a great day. But before we get started, it does truly take a village for us to bring this festival to you. And we cannot do it without our most generous supporter who is a staunch advocate for literacy and reading, and who has been supporting the festival for more than a decade now. So please welcome the festival's co-chair, Mr. David M. Rubenstein. [Applause] >> David M. Rubenstein: So how many people here have been to the book festival before? Anybody? Wow. How many have never been here before? Oh, wow. Okay. Well, thank you all for coming. And, Carla, thank you for the great job you're doing. As you know, Carla Hayden is the librarian of Congress, and she's very unusual in that she is a librarian. [Applause] For a few centuries or so, we've had non librarians as librarian of Congress. She's also unusual. She's the first female librarian of Congress and the first librarian of Congress who is a person of color. [Applause] She has the added advantage of having come from my home town of Baltimore. So everything you want. [Applause] And she just celebrated her birthday. So thank you. [Applause] So Carla's done a wonderful job, and you're going to have a great day today. And one of the reasons you're going to have a great day today is because this festival is free. So the reason it's free is we have a lot of very generous sponsors, and I just like to mention those sponsors and thank them. One is our charter sponsors who are the Institute of Museum and Library Services and The Washington Post. Thank you both very much for being our charter sponsors. [Applause] Our patron sponsors are General Motors, the James Madison Council, the National Endowment for the Arts, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. Thank you very much for your support. [Applause] And our champion sponsors are Costar Group and the John W. Kluge Center. So because of their generosity, we're able to pay for all the costs associated with this and you can attend for free. So I hope what you'll do is take advantage of the enormous number of authors that are here today and meet with them, talk to them, listen to them, get books signed by them, and try to do a lot of things relating to reading. For those of you who have children here, I hope you'll get to make certain that they experience what books and love of reading is all about. And I want to thank as well, our volunteers. We're able to do everything for free, in part because we have a lot of volunteers. The Junior League of Washington has supported the festival since 2003, and I want to thank them. And the other total 1000 volunteers we have here. So if you're a volunteer at this event, could you raise your hand? Okay, So thank you very much for volunteering. And I'm sorry we can't pay you, but we appreciate you're doing this and hopefully you're giving back to our country this way. So I want to thank all of you and thank you all for attending today. You're going to have a terrific time here. You're going to see some great authors and hopefully you'll learn a lot about reading the world of books and what the Library of Congress is able to do. So I'd just like to mention that there's a person who's responsible for the book festival is a person who started the idea, came up with the idea about 20 years ago. She was the first lady of the United States. She was about to with her husband, have the inauguration the next day. This is in 2001. And she then spoke to the then librarian of Congress, Carla Hayden's predecessor, Jim Billington, and said, do you have a national book festival? We have one in Texas. We have a Texas book festival. Do you have a book festival here? And he quickly said, not yet, but we will. And so on.The Mall in 2001, September, we had the first book festival, and ever since then we've had a national book festival. We've now moved it more indoors to the convention center. But the same concept is get people together, let them meet authors, let them read, let them experience what books are all about. So it's worked "Wonder"fully well. We'll have a staggering number of people here today. And I want to thank you all for coming early this morning and thank again our volunteers. And now let me turn it back to Carla Hayden. Thank you. [Applause] >> Carla Hayden: Thank you, David, for your support and your generosity and your belief in the fact that literacy matters. So let's get started with the 2023 National Book Festival. And we're starting it with a bang with someone we know you really adore. You know R.J. Palacio as the best selling author of "Wonder", but she's here today to talk about the novel version of "White Bird," the book from The "Wonder" Universe that she's co-written with children's writer Erica S. Perl, the author of more than 40 children's books. And moderating this conversation is our truly exceptional national ambassador for young people's literature, Meg Medina. So let's welcome them to Washington and the 2023 National Book Festival. [Applause] >> Meg Medina: Thank you so much. >> R.J. Palacio: Thank you. >> Erica S. Perl: Thank you. >> Meg Medina: Hi. Hello, everybody. >> R.J. Palacio: Hello. >> Erica S. Perl: Hi. >> Meg Medina: It's morning time. Good morning. I'm Meg Medina and I am joined on stage with two treasures in children's literature and two friends. Which is lucky for you. Raquel is R.J. Palacio. The beloved author of ""Wonder"" and "White Bird" and "Pony." And for those who are Washingtonians, you have another treasure here. Erica Perl, the author of the novelization of "Wonder". The way I want to do this conversation is basically to have a conversation among friends about writing and movies and how we move from the visual to the written word back and forth. But first, I thought you should have a little sneak peek at the trailer for "White Bird." If you haven't seen it, it's wonderful. So I'm tossing it to my tech people. >> Little bud. Little Bud. >> Cramer, you scared the crap out of me. >> I couldn't resist. >> Tell me about this new school of yours. >> Right now, I'm just trying to fit in. It's kind of been my motto ever since I left my old school. >> Julia, you did not leave your old school. You were expelled for being cruel to another boy. I'm sure your father has told you stories about when I was a young girl. >> He says you don't really like to talk about it. I don't. >> But now I think for your sake, I must. >> Excuse me. >> Oh, God. What is he doing? >> I saw this on your desk. >> Thanks. >> You're welcome. >> I didn't even know his name. >> Look at this freak. >> But we had in common one crucial thing. >> He's really good. For Jew. >> We had both seen how much hate people are capable of. >> One of the children's missing. >> Find him. >> And how much courage it took to be kind. >> You need to come with me right now. I know a way out. >> You stay with us, okay? >> When in dark times, those small things remind us of our humanity. >> How would you like to visit New York tonight? >> Sure. >> Open your eyes. >> You're the bravest person I've ever met. >> You forget many things in life, but you never forget kindness. Because when kindness can cost you your life, it becomes like a miracle. [Applause] >> Meg Medina: I think I've seen that trailer a million times. I keep putting on replay and Helen Mirren being one of my favorites and all of that. So you two, make sure you interrupt me and we ask each other questions and we just pretend the audience isn't here. All right. So I'm going to start with Raquel. "Wonder" Was this beautiful mushroom of love that began. So maybe if we could go over maybe the origin story of how "Wonder" happened and just it's its own department I think cannot, is it not. >> R.J. Palacio: You know I'm not sure but I know that it was a surprise. The success of "Wonder" took us all by surprise. I'm not sure people know I had been in book publishing prior to writing "Wonder", so I'm pretty familiar with sort of the ebbs and flows of books and popularity and publishing. And so when I wrote "Wonder" you know, I expected it. We all expected it to be a small, tiny midlist book. It's how you call it in the industry. And then just it surprised us all. I think it was discovered early on by teachers and librarians. And it came at a time when I think people maybe just wanted to be reminded about the impact of kindness. And so it just kind of grew from there. And I still can't believe it. I still pinch myself every week when I see it still on the New York Times list. I mean, it's kind of it's a surprise. It's a shock, and, you know, it's nice to know that. I suppose if that's going to be my legacy, it's not a bad one. >> Meg Medina: I would say not I would say not. And so when you start getting inklings that a book is taking off like that, then what happens? I can't even imagine the conversations about that. Like there are calendars, there are entire curriculum written for it, etc. >> R.J. Palacio: Well, you know, I think for me, the biggest wonder of "Wonder" was early on when it was discovered and supported by the craniofacial community. That was a moment for me where, you know, where I had conversations with kids and parents of kids who had been formed, who had been born with craniofacial differences and who told me what an incredible and positive impact it's had on their lives. Literally. I had one dad tell me once that his son, who was born with Treacher Collins. So basically his son has what Auggie does in the book, when he was little, he never wanted to go and play in the playground because he was just tired of people, kids staring at him and being mean. But then after "Wonder" came out. So they would go to the playground, like at 6:00 in the morning and before kids arrived and then "Wonder" came out. And then the son was like, you know, let's go to the playground, dad, you know, after school. And kids would come up to him and say, Hey, you're like Auggie Pullman, and he was like, Yeah, I am. And he kind of wore that as an honor. And so conversations like that, more than anything, more than the success of the book in the general public that impact that it's had on that community specifically and on people and kids with any kinds of differences. I mean, I've I've talked to people who, you know, are the parents of autistic children or the parents of kids with other differences, and they talk about just how the themes of the book really resonated with them and kind of helped them in their journeys. So so it's been great the way it's sort of reached this general and mass audience. But in all honesty, it's been the impact that it's had on kids who somehow identify with Auggie that's been the most compelling for me. >> Meg Medina: So that brings me to the impact that "Whitebird" is going to have on the notion of-- on the notion of bullying and excluding people in this notion of kindness when it truly, truly matters. So I first saw "Whitebird" probably the way you did Erica as a graphic novel, which was wonderful. Also among your many talents is that you're also a visual artist. So the graphic novel was beautiful. What was it about Julian and his grandmother that you thought would make a good pull out sort of spinoff of "Wonder"? What about that story in particular? >> R.J. Palacio: Well, first of all, I wanted to give Julian, who is not given a point of view or a chapter in "Wonder", a chance, if not to redeem himself, because he acts very, very badly in "Wonder". As we know, he's he's the bad guy in "Wonder". But I do feel like even obviously, even bullies have a story to tell. And oftentimes if we can kind of understand where they're coming from, and I always thought that Julian's meanness came from a point of fear and he wasn't having sort of the right parental guidance to help him deal with his fear. So it was coming out in this other terrible way. So I wanted to give Julian a chance to explain himself to readers and give him-- luckily he has a grandmother because his own parents are kind of, you know, not very helpful with this. But his own grandmother sees that this kid is on a track to becoming quite a not a nice person. And so she shares with him. I thought because I so believe I love that the festival's manifesto this year is the power of storytelling, because I so believe in the power of storytelling. And I thought, well, maybe the grandma could share with him a story from her childhood in which kindness not only changed the course of a day, but changed the course of her life. And so that's how "Whitebird" kind of sprung from just a conversation that grandmother had with her grandson to, I decided to blow it out into a graphic novel and tell that story in more detail in "Whitebird". >> Meg Medina: So this project, "Whitebird", starts as a visual project. And now, my friends, in addition to that graphic novel, we have Erica's talents added to the novelization. This was wonderful. And I read this. I could not put it down. I loved the graphic novel also. And so, Erica, I want to ask you, because you write across many age groups and so on, what drew you to wanting to take on a novelization? It's hard, I think, to go from a graphic novel to back towords somehow, or is it? >> Erica S. Perl: It was an unusual project, definitely. And you're right, I came across "Whitebird" actually at Politics and Prose, which is my neighborhood bookstore. I live in Washington, D.C., and I picked it up off the shelf and I started to read it. Then I read the entire book in one sitting. I literally sat down on the floor and read the book because it was so immersive and wonderful and I loved it. And then cut forward in time. Raquel and I share an editor at our publisher, and I was approached about this project of taking the graphic novel that I loved and turning it into a novel without pictures. And I was thrilled about the opportunity to work with Raquel and to work on this book. But when I took it on, I said, Okay, who's done this before? Where can I look for like a template or a roadmap? And that was when I discovered that I'm not aware of anyone who's gone in that direction before. Like, there are lots of novels that get adapted into graphic novels, but the other direction was sort of uncharted waters, so we had to kind of make it up as we went along. And so it was a fascinating project and it was great that we were able to speak and to have sort of Zoom conversations. Also, Raquel had done incredible research for the graphic novel, so a box of books arrived at my house and I was able to go through the same resources and really kind of understand everything that underlay the graphic novel. But it also required sitting with the graphic novel and sitting with a sort of a typed up list of every word that was in it and trying to figure out how to create a novel that was true to it, but that went into used novel language, so to speak, rather than graphic novel language, which are sort of two different ways of communicating. >> R.J. Palacio: And I wasn't very helpful in that. I created the graphic novel. Having never done a graphic novel in my life, I didn't know that what people usually start out with scripts and they have like, you know, I just did the graphic novel one page at a time. I didn't have a script. I didn't have any sort of manuscript or anything. So Erica, like, had nothing but the actual graphic novel, the pictures with the words in place. So they actually had to ask somebody at Random House to sort of type out-- >> Transcribe manuscript. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Meg Medina: So how did that work between you? Did you have like conversations every week? Was it hands off? Like, what did you do? >> Erica S. Perl: I mean, a combination. I felt like we talked initially. And once we were sure that we were sort of on the same page about our ideas about it, and also Raquel was very generous and sort of said, you know, see what directions you want to go with it, and so I took a stab at it and then showed some work to Raquel, and we were on the same page. And then I just sort of kept going. >> R.J. Palacio: I mean, it helps to trust the people you're working with. And I mean, obviously I probably could have novelized it myself, but for me, the graphic novel was the work, and so when we discussed the novelization in the beginning, I thought it made more sense to work with someone who could bring a fresh eye and a literary sense to the graphic novel and bring it to life in a way that because for me, I'd already done my work and I didn't want to revisit it. So I think just letting Erica bring her magic to my graphic novel felt like, I mean, I felt really, really lucky. She did an amazing job. >> Meg Medina: Yes, I'm going to completely upvote that. I think you did an incredible job. And I love that it's coming out at the same time that the movie is coming out. A lot of times when I'm on the road, people ask me a version of this question. I don't know if you get this question, but like, what do I do about the kids who are so plugged in, they're so much screen time. And and my feeling is like, they don't have to be in opposition. They can see the movie, come back to the book, go to the graphic novel. It can be a fluid thing. >> R.J. Palacio: Absolutely. Though unfortunately, as you probably may have heard, the movie's actually not coming out. It was supposed to premiere at the end of August. Actually shortly, and the book came out to time with that. But because of the strikes, they pushed back the release date to some unknown time. We don't know yet. When it is. >> Meg Medina: Yeah, the strike is wreaking havoc. >> R.J. Palacio: It's a valiant and it's a wonderful strike and I completely support all of the strikers. But yeah, things like this are casualties for the moment. But so I keep an eye out for when the movie does release please and wait for it because I have to say it's a work of art. It's really beautiful. >> Meg Medina: When they pushed it back, was it because the promotion part of it would get, because it's all made. It's all finished. >> R.J. Palacio: It's been finished for a while. I think part of it is because the talent associated with the project wouldn't be able to promote the project. And even I feel a little iffy, even though I'm not a member of any of the unions, I would feel iffy promoting it. I think in support of the strikers that, you know, we just have to wait until the studios come to their senses. >> Meg Medina: Okay. So I want the skinny on this movie. First of all, I want to know where it was filmed. And I know in "Wonder" you have that cam-- Do you guys, if you've seen it, you've seen the cameo at the end of Raquel and her husband and her son there in the audience with Auggie. So do you have a cameo in this one or that? What are the secrets we need to know about? >> R.J. Palacio: I do. You see me very briefly walking in New York City in my Army jacket and my regular clothes because I didn't know I was going to be in the cameo that day. Yeah, but it's very brief. If you blink, you would miss it. >> Meg Medina: Oh, nobody's going to miss it. We're going to be-- [Laughing] >> R.J. Palacio: In "Wonder", Stephen Chbosky was very, very-- he wanted me to be right behind Julia Roberts. My husband was right behind Owen Wilson. My kids were right behind Via and Auggie and Steph, but. And he gave me the part of being the first to get up and clap during the standing ovation scene. Here I'm literally just walking. I didn't want to be in it. I don't like being on camera. So, you know, but the director asked me to and I did. >> Meg Medina: I think that's so fun. And where was it filmed? >> R.J. Palacio: It was filmed in Prague during Covid prior to vaccines. >> Meg Medina: Oh, goodness. >> R.J. Palacio: I did not go on the set, even though I'm a producer on the movie, just because I really didn't want to risk getting sick. And and everybody got tested twice a day for the six, eight weeks that they were there in Prague in the middle of winter. I mean, it's a beautiful, beautiful setting. They did such a great job. They also filmed in New York and that's when I was on the set. >> Meg Medina: And so now you've had these two major motion pictures. Ms. Author, woman. And so tell me, what have you learn? Like what did you learn from how you rolled out "Wonder" versus this? Is there anything you want? I mean, I'm sure there's many things, especially during the strike and so on. >> R.J. Palacio: You know, I think what I learned is just people in studios are just people in studios, if that makes any sense. I think there's a tendency to think-- A lot of people think about publishing that way as well, that that's some sort of big corporate, you know, block of people who don't get things or whatever. And when you're inside publishing, you realize, we're just all people trying to do our best with every book, and I would say the same about the studios and the studio execs. At the end of the day, you think everyone knows what they're doing, but they don't. Everyone's just kind of figuring things out as we go along. I know that sounds ridiculous to say, but that was my-- That they're not these sort of monumental monolithic entities. They're just made up of people doing their best. And that's what I would say about publishing as well. And yeah, that was it. I know. Nothing revolutionary. >> Meg Medina: I'm going to dig drill down into the themes in the movie and in the book. So I really want each of your thoughts, but I'm going to start with Erica. Right now, the importance of-- I want you to talk to me a little bit about the importance of "White Bird" at this particular time in our history and in our country. Like, what is it that Raquel was getting at in the graphic novel that you wanted to capture in this novelization that you feel is like really vital to young readers and young people? >> Erica S. Perl: Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's an incredibly important time to be telling this story, both because of the specific themes. I mean, it's a Holocaust story and it talks about kind of everyday anti-Semitism and othering and all sorts of themes that are specific to-- I wish I could say are locked in that time capsule, but they are not. Unfortunately, they're present right now, anti-Semitism and all sorts of other racism and xenophobia. And we're living in a time where hate crime and rhetoric is on the rise. And we're living in a time where young people feel more of a distance from that history. And so working on a project that can kind of bring the past into the present by having a character like Sarah, who is so relatable to young readers and who is going through this. And then to also have Julian have this kind of parallel The story. Just to explain, this has sort of a story within a story. Julian and his grandmere have the conversation in present day and then grandmere tells of her past. But then we see her come to life as a young girl. So we have two young people, one today and one in the past going through situations that have connective tissue. And I think it's really important for young readers to have these stories so they can understand the past and understand its implications for the present so that they can shape the future. >> R.J. Palacio: I don't think I could say it better than that. That was exactly it, I think. And that's why I wrote it. I'll be completely truthful. I started writing "Wonder"-- I started writing "White Bird," the graphic novel, a couple of days after there was talk of a muslim ban in the United States, which I thought was so problematic. And so, you know, if one reads sort of the ten steps of genocide, it doesn't start with gas chambers, as they say. It starts with hateful rhetoric. It starts with othering of people. It starts with scapegoating. You know, these are general steps. And the reason in "White Bird," both the book and the graphic novel starts with the epithet of George Santayana said, "If we don't remember the past, we're doomed to relive it." And so I realized, you know, I am not Jewish. My husband is Jewish. And, you know, his mother lost basically her entire family in the Holocaust, andso it's something that my husband in terms of a generational memory, it's something that my husband and basically every Jewish person I've ever known growing up in New York has grown up with a sense or a connection to the Holocaust. And I always thought it was just rather strange that you have this dichotomy between people who are growing up with this very sense of a living history, a direct sorrow. And then you have a whole group of people who are growing up never having heard of the Holocaust because there's-- I don't remember what the percentage is, but there are people growing up who've never heard about it, especially in this younger generation who don't get taught the Holocaust until the eighth or ninth grade when they start reading "The Diary of Anne Frank." And that dichotomy just always felt really wrong to me. It felt like this shouldn't fall on only the shoulders of Jewish people to remember. It falls on everyone, to remember the Holocaust, to remember the victims of the Holocaust, to make sure it never happens, and so again, we do what we can as authors through the art of storytelling. And so I just wanted to tell this story now because I thought it was a way, first of all, of introducing the themes of the Holocaust to younger kids. My readers are, you know, third, fourth, fifth graders. And and then in the graphic novel, we provide a glossary at the end so that if people want to read more, they know where to go. I just think it's important to make sure that this generation and future generations never forget. >> Meg Medina: Okay, so now we're going to come to the part that is so sticky when we're writing for young people. I do this in my own work because my belief is that young people are witness to really difficult things every day. Right, and joyful things like those things coexist. And so you'd be hard pressed to find something as difficult to talk about and to catalogue for the very young as the Holocaust, and so you did it beautifully through magical realism, really, in the graphic novel with the White Bird. Do you have guiding principles when you are writing really hard things for kids? How did you come to deciding that you were going to represent death in the vision of this White Bird? >> R.J. Palacio: Well, there are literary devices as well, right? Magic realism is I mean-- One of the challenges and I think Erica faced this in novelizing it, one of the challenges that the book is kind of through the point of view of Sarah. And Sarah is in hiding in a barn for a couple of years. And so a way of finding out about other things that are going on in the world was through the White Bird, through the magic realism. It was her way of sort of connecting and my way of letting readers know what was going on in parallel with what was happening to Sarah. >> It's a good idea. >> R.J. Palacio: Thank you. Erica, though, of course, had, you know, I could just draw a white bird and have it fly and that was great. But Erica actually had to like write it. And that was a challenge, I thought. >> Erica S. Perl: It was one of the biggest challenges because just to make sure everyone's on the same page about this, in the graphic novel, there are many moments where a bird appears to Sarah or she imagines herself as a bird or she dreams a bird, or there is magical realism and she sort of becomes a bird and escapes her four walls of this barn where she is hiding after fleeing the Nazis. And so there are a lot of really amazing devices you have at your disposal in a graphic novel in terms of communicating that to the reader. You can have the birds lifting Sarah up. You can have the birds flying through a window Sarah can't go through. You can have even sort of a-- What's the word I'm looking for? Like a wavy edge to a frame to communicate to a reader that something is being imagined or wished or hoped that it's not. It's something between reality and not. But when you're using words, you can't quite short-- It's not shortcut. I don't know. >> R.J. Palacio: It is. It is. It's telegraphing. >> Erica S. Perl: It's not though. It's a different set of tools. You're using a different set of tools to try and communicate these things, and I try to think about what a reader would want in those moments. And I also tried to play a little game and create a situation where different readers could take different things from it, where one reader with a more literal mind might say, Oh, she's imagining, she's wishing, she's hoping she could go there. And another reader might say, This is magical realism and I'm going with her and seeing what she can see. And I tried to sort of walk that line where both readers would have a satisfying reading experience in the book by taking it where they wanted it to go. It required some footwork, definitely. >> R.J. Palacio: Which is another reason I didn't want to approach it a second time. I didn't know how you were going to do it. I'm sorry. I punted right there. >> Erica S. Perl: No, not at all. But I enjoyed the challenge. As a writer, it was fascinating. I'm a little nerdy about this, like. I love looking at how graphic novels and novels are. They're different ways of telling a story, and they have different tools and different language. And you really have to figure out how do I wanted to make this story honor the graphic novel, but tell its own version in, you know, straightforward prose terms. >> R.J. Palacio: Yeah, well, you did a great job. >> Meg Medina: The other tricky part, I think, is that it's also a love story. And so when we think of "Wonder", right, the origin of this whole thing, it's a book written for kids 8 to 12. It's in that group, and you know how that goes. It's like love and yuck. But I really was curious about how you handled the growing up, especially in the novelization. I think you really did a beautiful job in that because we're watching her from this sort of clueless, I mean, that's probably sounds like a strong term, but she's unaware. She's in her little red shoes. She has a happy life with her parents. She's like, oh, these rumblings going on and just the maturity that has to happen for her while still keeping it a book for middle grade. So can you speak to that a little bit like how you mastered that trick? >> R.J. Palacio: Well, in the graphic novel, again, I thought it was a little easier than in the novel because in the graphic novel time passes, you could literally just put a little frame that says, Two years later, and you don't have to get characters from one place to another. They just appear in a panel or they appear older and the reader immediately knows time has passed. So again, I feel like visually speaking, that was an easier, you know, doing the graphic novel definitely had an incredible set of challenges that I had not foreseen, including the research, because again, for instance, in this case, like if you're writing about something that takes place in the 1940s, it's enough for you to say as a writer, she opened the barn door, let's say, and if you want to be descriptive, you might say she opened the red barn door, but you don't have to get specific about what the barn door looks like. Really, it doesn't matter. But in a graphic novel, you actually have to then research what barn doors look like in the 1940s in rural France. Yeah, exactly. So that came. So there was a whole set of challenges on that level. But I think I was free of challenges when it came to time passing or the maturing aspect. That's where Erica really had to do the magic. >> Erica S. Perl: I felt like Raquel had left me little notes in the illustrations, you know, like there was so much detail that I could sort of say, Oh, look, she's, you know, she is older here and there. They're sitting differently. And just little things that I could pick up on. I could build into the narrative. >> Meg Medina: First kiss was very nice. It was very sweet scene. I have to say. >> Erica S. Perl: Well, that was where it was nice to have the room that you're afforded using words because you can have that interiority that you don't have as much room for in a graphic novel. A graphic novel. It's all very much visually laid out for you. But you can go much deeper into a character's head when you're using words to describe their emotions and what they're feeling leading up to an experience and afterwards and all that. You have lots of space for the moving into the kiss and the kiss itself and the after the kiss moment. Whereas in a graphic novel that would eat up page after page after page. So it's it's different. >> Meg Medina: All right. So I'm going to ask you this because I know you've also done a book with Dolly Parton, right? So now you have R.J. Palacio and you have Dolly Parton. Like, does this freak you out at all? Like, you know what I mean? They're like the weight of taking somebody really. You know-- I'm freaked out just asking the question. As you can see. >> Erica S. Perl: It's a huge honor and a huge responsibility because these are two people that I respect so. >> R.J. Palacio: You can't put me in the same sentence with Dolly Parton. I mean, I just feel like. I'm sorry. Let's just you know, R.J. Palacio here, Dolly Parton, you know, somewhere up there. So let's let's get real. I mean, Dolly Parton. Wow. >> Erica S. Perl: But these are two of my heroes. And so this was really, you know, two amazing and different opportunities because the books with Dolly Parton are picture books, and so it's a very different type of writing. But in both cases, I really wanted to honor the people that I was working with and just have to do my best work. So that definitely was part of the job. >> Meg Medina: Okay. I'm going to ask one question. I assume you've seen the whole cut of the movie. >> R.J. Palacio: Oh, yeah. >> Meg Medina: Have you, Erica? >> Erica S. Perl: Yeah, I have. >> Meg Medina: Yes, you have. Oh. I want in on that. So when you look at it like, all right, I'm going to back up because sometimes when I do a picture book and I first get the illustrations, it takes me a minute. I end up loving it because I've had wonderful illustrators, but it takes me a minute to go from the people in my mind to what's on the page. Is it the same thing when you're looking at the movie? Like, do you go through that or are you drawn into it the way we are when we go to the movie? >> R.J. Palacio: Well, in both cases, I was lucky enough to be a part of the sort of the working process all the way through. So I was there with the casting and all of the-- >> Meg Medina: You had a say in all of that? >> R.J. Palacio: I was a producer on it, so I definitely had a say. We saw the auditions. Zoom made it easier in a way because this is all during Covid. So all the auditions came online and I saw the dailies and there were like six hours of dailies every day. So I would watch all of the, you know, the scenes that don't end up in the movie, which is pretty amazing and weigh in and stuff, and also, you know, the screenplay and all of that. So it wasn't a surprise. What I will say, it wasn't until the final cut of the movie or the first few cuts that I'd seen where I realized just how as somebody who drew the graphic novel to see that they, and I'm not saying they use the graphic novel as a storyboard because they did a lot of things differently. But there was enough of the graphic novel in the movie to make my little heart sing. I realized that they used it as a template in many. So you'd see, you know, when you're alone drawing or writing a book you're kind of like you decide that this is-- this panel is going to be one person and this is going to be a dialogue scene or this is going to be a long shot. And I'm just going to show Julian and Sarah walking in the field with a mist. And then though, to see it a couple of years later as a movie, as the scene is exactly the way you drew it, that's surreal because that was like a little movie in my head, and now it's there and it looks exactly like the movie that was in my head. So it was it was kind of-- In all honesty, I think it's a brilliant movie. >> Meg Medina: Nice. I also like that the graphic novel is still in here as well. So they have interspersed in-- Erica's book is our panels from the graphic novel. So I felt so attached. >> Erica S. Perl: And in the movie in the closing credits they have Raquel's illustrations as well from. >> Meg Medina: They do? >> R.J. Palacio: I wanna do a shout out to April Ward, the designer for this book, because she did an amazing job. >> Meg Medina: Go, April. >> R.J. Palacio: Go April. Yeah, April in the house. Yeah. She did an amazing job of bringing that in. >> Meg Medina: Nice. Yeah. Okay. >> Meg Medina: So these are just such huge accomplishments, right? And I should also tell you, here's the secret. Erica and I are friends here in Washington. Raquel and I are friends. We were BFFs in Flushing Queens as little girls. So I've known Raquel from sleepovers and girl scout troops and kickball games and so on. >> R.J. Palacio: What are the chances, right? I mean, it's kind of amazing. When I think of Meg, I knew her at the age of eight. I knew her mom. She knew my parents. It's it's kind of amazing. And now she's like the national children's ambassador. >> Meg Medina: And you're R.J. Palacio. >> Meg Medina: Okay, this is weird. Our mothers must be up there going-- [Inaudible] >> R.J. Palacio: And our teachers. Our teachers in PS-22 in Flushing Queens, public school teachers. We had amazing teachers. We really did. So. >> Meg Medina: So it's a beautiful full circle. I don't know. It's surreal and a lovely thing. But I want to ask each of you, the Dolly Parton, like what is still on your wish list? I'm going to really widen it as literary citizens, as writers, as creative women, as bookmakers, content makers. What's on your wish list still? >> R.J. Palacio: I'll let you go. >> Meg Medina: Oh, throw her the hard one. I see how it is. >> R.J. Palacio: I'm really curious as to what Erica is going to say, so. >> Erica S. Perl: Well, I think after Dolly, my album comes out, that's really-- [Laughing] >> Meg Medina: Can you sing? >> Erica S. Perl: Not like that. No. More in the shower kind of category. >> Meg Medina: Yeah, me too. >> Erica S. Perl: I'm working on a lot of different projects. So I also draw. And so I'm working on a middle grade novel that I'm drawing illustrations for. So that's a work in progress, I should say. >> Meg Medina: I did not know this about you. You're also an artist. >> Erica S. Perl: I am-- It's funny. I am a sort of-- I'm not a real artist kind of person, which is interestingly what the book is about. It's about a kid who doesn't think of herself as a real artist and is very shy about her art. So it's a little bit of a self referential project. So yeah, so we'll see if that sees the light of day. That's been one of my projects. I mean, I will say that White Bird-- I'm Jewish and some of my books have Jewish themes in them. And I had never considered doing a Holocaust book myself because I've always sort of been concerned that there are so many Holocaust books and there are so many other Jewish stories to tell. And I had always sort of written more contemporary Jewish stories, and but writing this version, which was my first time working on a historical novel, really opened up to me the possibilities that maybe there would be other Jewish stories to tell that are not Holocaust, not contemporary, but something else. So I'm mulling over what that means for me. >> Meg Medina: Well, I'm going to have my eye on you, Erica Perl. >> Erica S. Perl: Absolutely. [Speaks in Spanish] >> R.J. Palacio: Medinita. You know, I don't know. I think the one thing that-- We turned 60 this year. Was that a secret? Should I not have said that? 1963. >> Meg Medina: The big 60. >> R.J. Palacio: Yeah, exactly. Meg is in June. She's older than I am by a month. >> Meg Medina: Oh. Oh. I saw what you did there. >> R.J. Palacio: But I think as a literary citizen, just as a person reaching a certain sort of milestone, I'm looking forward to just taking a little bit more time with life to not hurry from one thing to the next, because I just feel like, committing to a book, it's a commitment. It's like a year or two of your life where you're just living and breathing these characters, this time period. And, you know, so I'm choosier now and I'm kind of like not diving into the next project. I have lots of ideas for books. I was mentioning this to Erica yesterday. I'm just kind of letting the universe tell me what the next book should be, and I'm taking my time. I'm not like rushing. I actually spent this year doing something I'd never had the time to do in my life before, which was organizing photo albums, and I did it. It took me months, but I actually, you know, I've got a chronological-- I was really proud of that, photo album now. >> Meg Medina: Well, you're a photographer as well. And I remember going to visit you. You had a collection of cameras. You still have that collection? >> R.J. Palacio: I do. That's what "Pony" is all about. It's old pictures and cameras and And horses. Yeah, horses. >> Meg Medina: Another of our passions from when we were little. >> R.J. Palacio: Loved horses. I used to draw horses all the time. >> Meg Medina: So hard to draw. >> R.J. Palacio: I'm sorry. >> They're hard to draw. >> They're hard to draw. They're the thing I can draw. Like, if you asked me to draw it right now, I could totally draw a horse right now. Yeah, because I drew it. I mean, anyway. Yeah, I don't know what I'm going to work on next. I have some ideas, but I'm letting it. I'll start soon. >> Meg Medina: Now that your photos are organized, what else is. >> R.J. Palacio: What else is there? There's not much. >> Meg Medina: I think you could rest easy. >> R.J. Palacio: And my younger son is in college now, so. Yeah, there's time. There's lots of time on my hands. >> Meg Medina: You were a mom raising them when "Wonder" lifted off and all of that. What was the impact of all of that? How did that go? >> R.J. Palacio: There was actually an impact, I will say, because my older son is seven years older than my younger son. So my older son went to Bowdoin and my younger son is now at Bowdoin. And I remember speaking, so my older son was in high school when "Wonder" came out, but my little one was like 7 or 8 when the ARC came out and I first read it to him and stuff. And I remember Bowdoin asked me to do a-- I spoke at the college once and my older son cautioning me as he was a freshman or sophomore, you know, mom, a lot of people my age, we've never heard of "Wonder". We didn't grow up reading it. So don't be sad if there's no one in the audience. >> R.J. Palacio: He was, you know, basically-- Yeah. Thank you. But my younger one, he grew up with the "Wonder" generation, let's say. I mean, he was in fourth grade when reading teacher came into class and innocently brought "Wonder" to read to the kids and all of the kids. And of course, they knew me, you know, and all of the kids got very excited. And the teacher said, Oh, I'm so glad some people have heard of this book, and then finally the teacher had to like, oh, his mom wrote the book. And, you know, so and recently I was asked back to Bowdoin to give one of the commencement speeches. And I realized this was the class of 2022. This was the "Wonder" generation. This was the part that was kind of thrilling. I asked the audience, you know, so how many if I can ask, how many of you have read "Wonder"? And everybody's hand went up. And that was a really-- that was kind of amazing. And I was able to tell my older son, see, people do read the book, you know, so, hello. >> Meg Medina: A few people came to that side. >> R.J. Palacio: Yeah, exactly. So my younger son really grew up, he's always known "Wonder". He's kind of famously quoted in our family as saying, it's all comes back to "Wonder" because so much of our lives have been impacted by "Wonder." Festivals, family vacations planned around festivals. You know, it's just. >> Meg Medina: It took a life of its own. >> R.J. Palacio: Yeah. I just found out recently he didn't know that my prior life I was a book jacket designer. He didn't know that. It's like I was literally showing him the other day. Look, I did this book jacket. >> Meg Medina: You did my first book jacket. For my very first book by Henry Holt. >> R.J. Palacio: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Anyway. >> Meg Medina: So I am going to wish you so much luck on this project. When this movie comes out, we are all going to be there. Yes. We're going to check this movie out. [Applause] We are going to go to the signing line to get the signature on this beautiful book. It is really lovely. I think you're going to really enjoy it. We have about five minutes and I know that there are microphones set up. And so if you have a question for Raquel or for Erica, please come forward. And while that is happening, I can barely see. So you'll have to tell me if people are coming forward. Be brave. Oh, it's here. >> R.J. Palacio: Oh, here we go. Okay. >> Meg Medina: Hi. >> R.J. Palacio: Hello. >> As a member of the disability community, I want to thank you for "Wonder" and "White Bird." And I was wondering if you were intending to use the theme of disability as you go forward with your other projects. >> R.J. Palacio: You know, I don't know. I sort of write from a character point of view first and a story first. And sometimes, I mean, it's an interesting and I think any author can tell you that, you know, inspiration hits in different ways, and you don't know what is going to suddenly strike you as being a great idea for a story or a great idea for a character or whatever. I think, from the soul first and work our way out. So, you know, I tend to try to find or build characters around our uniqueness, but also around the universality of what we all feel, you know? And so, yeah, I don't know. I honestly don't know. I wish I did. Sorry. >> Meg Median: Hi. >> Hi. I was wondering how you guys get your inspiration and how you get over your writer's block. >> Meg Medina: That's a great question. >> Erica S. Perl: I mean, I will say-- Thank you for that great question. I will say that inspiration comes from everywhere. I mean, as Raquel just said, like just things that I see, things that I hear people say. I keep a notebook and I write down all sorts of stuff and I don't even know if I'm going to use it or not. I just try to get in the habit of writing it all down and figuring it out later. And then in terms of writer's block, what helps me is having that notebook because then I've got this great stack of stuff. And so if I'm having a day where I can't think of something to write about, I'll look in my notebook and I'll find a little doodle that I did or some line of dialogue that someone said that I thought was funny. And I'll see if any of that helps me jump off in a new direction. So the notebook is my little secret weapon of having stuff to work on, even when I'm feeling like I can't think of anything to write. >> R.J. Palacio: I would also say listening. Listening is really good. >> Erica S. Perl: Yeah, writers are spies. >> R.J. Palacio: Writers are eavesdropers. And I think not enough people spend a lot of time listening to other people's stories or other things people have to say. And you can get a lot of inspiration just by listening to other people and hearing stories that maybe aren't your own, but incorporate or you can incorporate into your own stories that you want to tell. >> Meg Medina: Thank you. Hello. >> Do you like how your books turned out? Like the audience? Do you like how many people know about your books? >> R.J. Palacio: I do. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's been grand. >> Erica S. Perl: I really feel like when you write, you're sort of in a conversation with your reader. So if someone comes up to you and they've read your book and they want to talk back at you about it and tell you what they thought was cool, what they thought was funny, what they had questions about. That's what I'm writing for is for those conversations. So the more people that I can have that conversation with, the better, and then those people might write their stories and then I can read them and be the reader and have those same conversations the other way around. So that's what I'm about. That's why we're all here. I like to think is that-- we all want to read stuff and have those conversations and make the world a little smaller by getting to know each other's stories. >> R.J. Palacio: And we all really like kids. I think that helps too. I think, I mean, we just love writing for people your age because I think that it's one of the great privileges of being an author is being able to write for your age. I think it's probably the most fascinating time and a real fun time to explore as a writer. >> Meg Medina: Thank you. Who's our next friend? Hi. >> Thank you, Raquel, Erica and Meg for your work. Your work makes our work. Those of us who try to connect books with children and get that internal motivation to read so much easier. So thank you, and I think you've done it again here with this. I loved the graphic novel "White Bird." One of the things that we often hear from adults is that they worry about how popular graphic novels are. They worry about how many graphic novels their children are reading, and we say, it's okay. Like Meg said, this the diversity of reading is that it's important. And so I was wondering, I think you've done us a great service here in this novelization because this strengthens our argument in that regard. But I'm wondering, do you see more potential for novelization of graphic novels into novels? >> Erica S. Perl: I mean, I would love there to be more. I think it would be great to have a lot of books available in multiple formats, both because, as you said, not everyone is drawn towards the same type of storytelling, also because it enables kind of intergenerational conversations, because if kids and the adults in their lives are reading the same books, regardless of format or listening to the same books or any of those things, there's more opportunity to discuss it and to go deeper into it. So I'd love to see more of that. >> I was wondering how you came up with the cover for "Wonder". >> R.J. Palacio: You know, you would think that I would have designed my own book cover, but I did not. I purposely did not want to design my own book cover because, as anyone who designs book covers can tell you, it's a very fraught process. And having said that, I did ask to work with that illustrator and the illustrator and the art director came up with a series of sketches and we all, which almost never happens, all agreed on the exact same one, which turned out to be the cover of "Wonder". I think the idea behind it was that he wanted to be able to represent a face that readers could then imagine looks the way they would want or imagine the Auggie to look like. So that was the concept behind it. And I think it was a really winning cover. >> Also, by the way, Erica, I really like your hair. >> Erica S. Perl: Thank you. [Laughing] >> Meg Medina: Me too. The blue is nice. I hate to do this to us. I have to be the bad guy and say that it's time for us to close the session. But if you would, please join me in thanking Raquel and Erica for their-- [Applause] >> R.J. Palacio: Thank you, Meg. >> Erica S. Perl: Thank you. >> Meg Medina: Oh, my goodness. [Music] [Music]