>> Shari Werb: I'm Shari Werb
and I am the Director of
the Library of Congress's
Center for Learning,
Literacy and Engagement.
And today on the Curiosity
Stage, you'll be part of some
really intriguing
conversations from one
with former United
States poet laureate
Joy Harjo and her
co-creator Mikaela Goad
to performance from
"The Great Gatsby"
by the nonprofit
Literature to Life.
Beloved young adult
writer Angelene,
Bully and Lamar Giles
are on this stage.
And National Book Award winner
Elizabeth Acevedo will be here
with her first adult novel.
We place the stage this way
with the audience surrounding
the stage because we want you
to be part of a conversation.
So please be free--
Feel free to ask questions
at today's events.
The theme of this year's
National Book Festival is
Everyone Has a Story,
and that means you, too.
We hope you join us
also at the library's Thomas
Jefferson Building on Thursday
nights for our popular
Live at the Library series.
When we leave the Jefferson
Building open late, offer food
and drink and produce a variety
of really fun events, including
the upcoming literary costume
ball on September 14th.
When we encourage you to dress
up as your favorite literary
character or writer.
And Ann Patchett and Kate
DiCamillo in conversation the
night of October 19th and a
brand new event called
Pick Your Poison, Mystery Night
at the Library of Congress
on October 26th. So
we want you to know
that the Library of Congress
belongs to you and
is yours to explore.
Now, if you see a survey taker
roaming around the festival,
please take the survey.
We know you might want to run
away from it, but please don't.
We're very interested
in hearing from you and
incorporating your thoughts into
future national book festivals.
The first event on
today's stage is titled
How Can We Deal With
the World's Injustices?
Ask a teen and
it's one that our literary
initiatives team had a
lot of fun cooking up.
The writers on this panel are
Lesa Cline-Ransome,
the author of 25 books
for young readers,
including the award winning
"Finding Langston" Trilogy.
Her work has received a
plethora of honors, including
the NAACP Image Award
nominations,
a Coretta Scott King
Book Award, Honor,
the Scott O'Dell Award for
Historical Fiction and
a Christopher Award.
She'll be talking about her
new novel "For Lamb" today.
Her co-panelist is Jennifer De
Leon, the author of the novel
"Don't Ask Me Where I'm From"
and the essay collection,
"White Space: Essays on
Culture, Race and Writing."
De Leon is here with her new
young adult novel, "Borderless."
And our moderator is Austin
Ferraro, a teen librarian with a
background in academic
libraries, a brain full of ADHD
fueled ridiculous ideas
and too many books to read.
So thank you for joining
us at the Curiosity stage.
And let's welcome the
three of them to the stage.
[Applause]
>> Austin Ferraro: Just gonna
start that off real strong.
Hello? Hello, Hello.
So I'm just going to real quick
drop two content warnings.
"For Lamb" does involve the
lynching of a character
and "Borderless" does involve
descriptions of
immigrant detention.
So heads up, our conversation
will probably also be going
in that kind of direction.
So can you both tell us a
little bit about your books?
>> Jennifer De Leon: Sure.
Sure. Yeah, why not? Well,
thank you so much
for the invitation
to be here, first of all.
This is my first time at
the National Book Festival.
Both my parents are
immigrants from Guatemala, and
they moved to this
country 53 years ago.
And it's really a thrill to be
here on this stage with Lesa,
who I admire so much,
and to have this moment.
So I just want to acknowledge
that for all the immigrants
in the United States.
"Borderless" tells the story
of a 16 year old Maya Silva,
and she lives in Guatemala City
with her mom,
who's a single mom.
And Maya loves her life.
She attends a fashion school
and she has her best friend and
a love interest.
And life is good.
The last thing she's thinking
about is coming north.
But then one day she visits her
neighbor, and in the courtyard,
she witnesses an act of
violence by a local gang member.
And the gang member
sees her witness this.
And now the entire Mara, the
gang is after her and her
family. So she and her mother
have to flee to the border in
the dead of night, and they
hire a coyote to help them
cross. But then
they're separated.
And I won't tell you what
happens next because I'd love
for you to read the book, but
this is a story that's really
dear to me, and I
can share more later.
But thank you for being here.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: Thank
you all for coming so early
in the morning and it is a
pleasure to be here with both
Austin and Jennifer, whose
work I admire so much.
A little bit of
a love fest here.
[Laughing]
So I am the author
of "For Lamb."
And several years ago, I went to
visit Montgomery, Alabama, to
visit the what's called the
Lynching Museum.
And I was surprised to discover
so many monuments to the
lynching victims
that were women.
And this is a story that
I'd never heard before.
I was surprised. I thought most
lynching victims were men.
And so I decided to write a
story that memorialized the
lives of lynching victims
who were women.
One of the victims that I read
about was a woman named
Lamb Whittle, and there was
absolutely no information about
her story. And so this book
really was imagining the life of
a young girl named Lamb.
And so this story is a story of
16 year old Lamb Carter, who
lives in Jackson, Mississippi.
And she's a quiet, studious
girl, and she has an older
brother named Simeon.
She lives with her mother,
Marion, a hardworking
seamstress. And Lamb is a girl
who always follows the rules.
She's quiet, she's studious.
Her brother is hardworking,
going to college in the north.
He's earned a scholarship, and
her mother is doing her level
best to make sure they both
stay safe and follow the rules
that 1940s Jackson,
Mississippi, Jim Crow South
dictate so that they're
both remain safe.
But one day Lamb decides that
she's going to start a very
secret friendship with a white
girl who lives in town, breaking
all of these social norms.
And that friendship winds up
setting off a very tragic series
of events and snaring both of
their families in what becomes
a horrible turn of
events "For Lamb,"
her family and ends
quite tragically.
>> Austin Ferraro: So
we're seeing a lot of
discussion right now
about what is and is not
appropriate for young adults.
And both of you
tackle very big topics.
What to you made you look
at these topics and say this is
important for teens
to read about?
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
So I'm of the mindset that
teens both
experience and witness
very difficult
subjects every day.
So I don't believe that we need
to do a lot of protecting of
teens. I'm a mother of four,
and I know that teens are often
looking for answers as a way to
deal with many of life's very
difficult situations
and circumstances.
Teen years are a time I know
for myself, I was always trying
to figure out the world, and
literature and books were a way
that I could do that.
Help to find answers about
myself, how I fit in the world
and the world itself.
And so I think that literature
is a way to help teens figure
out some really difficult
questions that they may have.
And I think tackling tough
topics, which are really the
everyday topics that we face or
are faced with, certainly for
me, growing up in an all white
community race was something
that played a very
large role in my life.
And so having books that
address race, race relations
helped me to really try to
understand and put things in
perspective and context.
And so for me, that
was very helpful.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Yeah, definitely.
I love that. I love that
question and that response.
And I had a similar upbringing
where, you know, it was the 80s
and 90s race was not
talked about in the sense of
celebrating. It was more like
assimilate and multiculturalism
meant blend in as
much as you can.
And I'm glad that now it's
shifting in terms of like
celebrate your diversity
and stand out.
So I started
writing "Borderless"
in 2018 at the height of the
zero tolerance policy by
the Trump administration.
And at the time I was very
pregnant with my second son.
And I witnessed other people
marching in the streets at
rallies. And I thought like,
I want to get out there.
And my husband was like, whoa,
you know, because I was like
about to give birth. And I
thought, what can I do besides,
like, scroll, right?
And just kind of watch all of
these images on the news.
And so I decided to start
writing Maya's story.
Everything I was watching in
the media, it felt like a single
story. What Chimamanda Adichie
talks about in her famous
Ted talk. Right. The danger
of a single story.
And so I wanted to write a
counter narrative to what I was
witnessing. And I started
writing Maya's story because I
felt that if teens today aren't
able to grasp what is happening
currently, right, not 100 years
ago, not 200 years ago, but
today at the US-Mexico border,
then we're in trouble, right?
And I was a teacher for ten
years in Boston public schools.
And there were some days where
I had students who came in and
they had a parent who was
recently deported or, you know,
students would start and leave
school and have interrupted
schooling because
of migration issues.
And yet I never saw this
reflected in the literature.
Right. So it's Toni Morrison's
famous quote, right?
If there's a book in the world
you want to read, but it has not
been written yet, then you need
to be the one to write it.
So these are all my
books that I write.
They're really the ones
that I need to read.
And young people especially
have so much energy and
enthusiasm and wisdom, and
I'm hopeful for this next
generation. It's really
thrilling to see so many young
people in the audience
too, on a Saturday, no less.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
In the morning.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Yes.
[Laughing]
>> Austin Ferraro: I think,
yeah, that single story concept
is definitely what struck me
in reading both of your books
and that you're very
much not doing that.
I did my undergrad in Spanish
literature, and one of the
things that you see a lot in
especially U.S. based narratives
is the plucky kid, you know,
goes to Mexico and crosses the
border and then lives a new
life in the United States where
they become your
great average citizen.
And when you're looking at
a lot of stories about the
Jim Crow South, it's, you know,
the Black kid befriends the
white kid and everything
transcends race and they live
happily ever after.
And that is not what you wrote.
Could you talk a little bit
about subverting those?
I don't want to necessarily
call them genre tropes,
but those expectations
that we have of those stories.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: So when I
was approaching the relationship
between Lamb and Marnie
and you experience their
discussions around race,
one of the things that I
actually had to pull from were
my own discussions on race with
many of my white girlfriends and
the ways in which...
Here I am writing a
piece that's historical,
but many of the discussions
we've had, I feel
often around race haven't
evolved much from the 1940s and
'50s, right. The ways
in which we see the world
sometimes have not evolved.
The ways in which we see,
the way people experience
a certain privilege of being
able to walk through the world
feeling safe.
The ways in which we
experience fear of police,
theconversations that I've had
to have with my own children and
the ways other people haven't
had to have those same
conversations. And there is a
scene in the book where they're
talking about something that
they read in the newspaper, even
the way that both of them
experienced one article.
It's just really looking at the
world through two very different
lenses. And so just having to
write those conversations and
write about those experiences,
you know, sometimes we
like to believe that we live in
an ideal society where sometimes
friendship can transcend race.
But race is such a difficult--
It's one of the most difficult
things that we as a country
have not been able to speak
about honestly.
And I think what I wanted to
show in the book is that this is
something that was difficult to
discuss in 1940, and it's still
difficult to discuss in 2023,
honestly.
And until we can have really
honest conversations, we're
never going to be able to
transcend race as a country and
we're never going to
be able to move forward.
We're still in a place where we
are pretending that, you know,
racial indignity and
injustice doesn't exist.
And so, you know, this is
something that I really feel is
important to address
in my writing.
>> Austin Ferraro: Thank you.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Always
learning so much from you.
[Laughing]
I mean it.
I mean it. Oh, my gosh.
Because I don't know.
I love your work so much.
And part of what I love is that
you are like you're saying,
defying that single story,
like you're finding a different
pathway into the narrative,
the larger narrative.
And I think that's our work as
writers and as readers too, to
seek out these
different pathways.
And so for me, just like
Austin, I was thinking, okay,
there are so many stories of,
not so many, but enough of
several of young people
crossing the border coming into
the U.S. and yeah, assimilating
and making their way
and all of that, right. And...
The myth I think, the
misunderstanding is that
everyone in Central America
wants to come to
the United States.
And I know on a personal
level that that's not true.
My mother came to the
United States seeking the
"American dream."
She didn't look back,
but my father only came
to the United States
for one reason.
He was 18 years old and he
wanted to come to Los Angeles to
make enough money
to buy a motorcycle.
And when he was done making
that money, he was going to go
back to Guatemala and
ride into the sunset.
And here he is 53 years later,
living outside of Boston.
My mom won that arm wrestle.
Right. But he did not want
to live in the United States.
He only came because he was 18.
It was something to do.
He could make some money.
Right. So I think that's the big
myth, is that like, we see
caravans of people fleeing and
coming to the country under
these horrific conditions, and
many of them aren't so much
running towards the U.S.
as they are leaving a very
difficult situation.
And if it wasn't the case,
then they wouldn't leave.
I mean, think about it like,
would you want to leave your
home and your language,
your culture, your family,
your community, your school?
You'd need a very good reason
in order to do that.
So I wanted to have the bulk of
the book actually take place in
Guatemala and I'm excited for
more YA that's set in different
countries in general.
I feel like it's an opportunity.
>> Austin Ferraro:
Absolutely.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
That's what I love so much
about your book too.
About the way you described
the beauty of the land, of the
culture, of the history.
I just think it just captured, I
mean, it just made me want to
move to Guatemala. I mean,
it's just so beautiful.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Oh, we'll
do a National Book Festival
in Antigua, Guatemala.
[Laughing]
>> Austin Ferraro:
When you're talking about like,
assimilating and sort of thing,
one of the things that you
both did linguistically
in your books is not that,
you didn't write in
standard American English.
You chose to give your
characters voices that were more
distinct to their culture.
Could you talk a little bit
about what that process was
like? And if you get any
pushback when you were
publishing about that?
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
Well, no pushback.
But one of the things I love
is listening to language.
And one of the things I love
more than anything
is the beauty of dialect.
Both Jennifer and I discovered
last night that we're from
Massachusetts and probably give
us another 30 minutes,
our Boston accents
will come out.
And so I love dialect,
I love accent and accents.
I love African American
vernacular.
And so I'm always listening.
And I think it's it's a
vernacular that in this country
hasn't so much been accepted
and celebrated and someone
mentioned Toni Morrison earlier
and I love the way that she
elevated and celebrated it.
And she is my writing literary
hero that I seek to emulate in
some ways. And so I too like to
elevate and emulate and
celebrate the beauty of African
American vernacular in writing.
It has, you know, it has a
distinct structure and people
think that it doesn't, that
it's just simply slang, but it
has a distinct structure
all dialects do.
And so it's just something that
I like to put in my books.
I'm my parents are both from
the South, my in-laws are from
the South. And I'm always just
listening to capture the beauty
of it. And when I put it in
my writing, it's so that readers
can hear and experience
the beauty of our language
and our culture.
>> Jennifer De Leon: I think
that's something you do
so well, Lesa. Like with
the multiple points of view.
And I...
I noticed that because,
like the chapters, right?
It's Lamb but then her brother
but then her uncle, but then her
mother and dialogue, it just I
love it because every voice is
so distinct. Right?
And in order to do that,
it's like you really have to
understand the character.
And I didn't know that I could
write in English with some words
in Spanish. Like my whole
life I didn't know that.
I didn't read a book by a Latina
author until I was 19 years old.
I read the "House
on Mango Street."
I thought my professor
in freshman English
had made a mistake.
I went to the bookstore
and I got this book
and I flipped through it and I
see some words in Spanish.
I'm like, Oh, I'm
not in a Spanish class.
She must have made a mistake.
But no, it was American
literature, right?
And so when I read that book,
I thought no one told me.
I didn't know I could do this,
that I could write in English.
But then pepper in Spanish.
Right. And I just felt like
this massive permission because
it just kicked off something in
my own writing.
And I remember like reading
Junot Diaz and being like, Oh,
wow. Like the voices, they're
really popping off the page
because of the attitude and the
energy and the very distinct
word choice. And
it just felt exciting.
Like, I don't know, I could
maybe do that too.
So and Spanish in general, a
lot of times people think it's
like one language, but there
are so many variations depending
on the country of origin, right?
Like Puerto Rican Spanish
is different than Guatemalan
Spanish than Dominican Spanish.
And so having those
nuances are important.
There are a lot of sayings
that I feel like maybe only
Guatemalan people will know.
And I love that, you know, so
everyone else is welcome to like
eavesdrop. But the Guatemalan
people who read this, I feel
like are like are and
hopefully they feel seen.
You know, in reading the book.
>> Austin Ferraro: Part of
what I really enjoyed about
your use of let's call
it dialect in your books
is that I was able
to do at least part of
them on audio for
both of your books.
And the narrators are excellent.
I loved hearing
that difference
between the characters.
Did you have any role in making
the audiobook happen and if so,
what was that process like?
>> Jennifer De Leon:
None at all.
[Laughing]
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: I've been
really fortunate to have met
one of the audio book
narrators, Dion Graham,
who voiced the
"Finding Langston" series.
He actually voiced--
I met him later.
Much later, he voiced my very
first book, Satchel Paige, but I
met him much later and asked
him to read my book,
"Finding Langston," which
he liked, and he voiced that,
and then he voiced
the entire trilogy.
So when they were looking for
voice actors For Lamb,
they decided to have
actors for each character.
I thought, I said, Well, maybe
Dion could do the whole book.
He could do all six
characters, men, women.
And they said, No, we're going
to try to have six different
narrators for each.
But Dion became the father
Chester in the book, and because
I have a relationship with him.
So I did-- They asked me to
weigh in on several of the
characters. And I did pick and
I made a suggestion for one.
But what I loved about having
the relationship with Dion is
that he would call and ask
questions about the character.
And I remember there was one
scene in particular where the
father was walking down the
street going back to the home
after a crucial scene.
I won't do a spoiler,
but a crucial scene.
And he asked me,
when this father is
walking down the street,
are the neighbors
that he's seeing?
Are they Black
or are they white?
It would dictate for him how
he is experiencing the moment.
And I can hear his heart
in when he's reading.
I can feel him in that moment.
And so I think that it's great
to have a relationship with the
voice actor just because
they really do understand
your intention.
>> Austin Ferraro: And yeah,
thinking of that scene,
I can see how that
would be a very crucial--
[Laughing]
But it's interesting that you
talk about the father
specifically because one of the
things that you know, ongoing
joke about YA is that
all the parents are dead.
Missing, not involved.
But you you both did include
parents as very significant
characters, not just
throwaways, but very
significant, very involved
in their teens lives.
Can you talk about that
decision a little bit and how
that impacted the way
that the story worked?
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: Well
for me, as a Black person,
I'm working with a
counternarrative here because,
you know, throughout in
literature and media portrayals,
I'm often experiencing this
idea of the African American
family as fractured.
And so I'm
often working to demonstrate
that that's not my personal
experience, and I don't think
that that's actually a realistic
portrayal of African
American families.
And so I love showing
the beauty and strength of
African-American communities.
It's why I'm sitting here today
because I think there's such
strength in unity.
And so I really do like to
demonstrate, like as often as I
can, most of my books, you'll
see that there's a certain
themes about the power of
education, the power of
community and the
power of family.
And so in this book, too, while
the parents are not physically
living together, they both are
really have strong influences in
the lives of their children.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Yes. It's just not realistic.
As a Latina to have not my
parents in my business,
you know, I guess that's
a short abbreviated answer.
Yes. No, there was very
little separation growing up.
Actually, my journal was a
space where I could create that
separation, so I often went to
the page to kind of like be with
myself. You know, my parents
were super involved in our
upbringing and as were my
theas and my theos, my abuela.
Like, it was just like
we were a unit.
And yeah, everyone was in
everyone else's business, for
better or for worse.
But I do also like to defy
those stereotypes of the
fractured family or like that
parents aren't interested in
their children's education.
So like my first book,
"Don't Ask Me Where I'm From,"
it tells the story of
a young girl in Boston
who's in the Meco program, which
is a desegregation program.
So she takes a bus from Boston
to a neighboring white suburb to
get a "Better education."
And her parents signed her up
for that program when she was
very young. And so she gets off
the waiting list.
And here she is starting at a
new school.
It's a whole journey. Right.
But I wanted to kind of dispel
that myth that parents aren't
involved in their kids
education or whatnot.
And I think with young people,
like I just I don't know.
I think it's from having been a
teacher or having been like
growing up in a predominantly
white town, the stereotypes that
young people face, it's tough.
It's a lot. I would have
teachers like, you know, tap me
on the shoulder and say, like,
the Metco bus is leaving,
you know? And I would say,
like, I'm not in Metco, like
I live in this town. My parents
own a house here, you know.
And so having to explain that
constantly or answering the
question like,
where are you from?
Where are you from
from? What are you?
Where are you really from?
I've had people ask me,
What tribe are you in?
You're in the
international dorm, right?
Or Where's the
financial aid office?
It's like, Oh, I have a
paper due in Spanish.
Can you write it for me,
please? And the irony is, like,
I probably couldn't write that
paper. I could write it in
French because I
studied French forever.
But that's not the picture.
That's not the image that when
someone looks at me, they might
not see like, Oh, she
speaks French, right?
So I think part of what
literature does is open up
windows, right? For for
young people especially.
So it's so critical, like with
my teacher hat on and my author
hat on and my mom hat on like
caps for sale kind of image.
Right? I just think like it's
so important that we have these
kinds of spaces to talk about
books and stories and both what
is documented and what will be
documented through our stories,
through all of your stories.
I know there are
writers in the room.
It's so great to see some
friends and we have to keep
going. You know, banned books,
so much curriculum being
overtaken by legislators like
all of this, like we have to
really fight against it.
You know, it's so
critical. So, yeah.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: That's
so true. And disproportionately
it's our stories
that are being banned.
And these are the stories that
are crucial that we get out to
dispel what you're saying,
these myths and stereotypes.
And yet it's our stories
that are being banned.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Yes.
>> Austin Ferraro: And I think
that part of the reason
it's so important
to keep those stories
is so these teens
see themselves.
Right. And one of the things
that was very crucial in
incorporating families in your
yearbooks, there was a couple of
times where the
teens made decisions.
They were very small decisions.
But there was a domino effect.
And how did you decide where
those dominoes fell and why?
>> Jennifer De Leon: Yeah.
You know, as teens, right?
I know I was this way.
I wasn't always thinking ahead.
Let's say. You know,
the brain doesn't fully develop
until, what, like
early 20s or something.
So there's this part of your
brain, I guess, that's just not
thinking about consequences in
the same way that maybe when
you're 30 or 40 or 50,
you're thinking about it.
So that's actually why I love
writing YA, because there are so
many points of no return.
So on a plot level, it's really
fun because characters make
a lot of mistakes because
they're not thinking ahead.
They're like, Yeah, I'll get
in that car with that guy
I don't know. Or like, Yeah,
I'll meet my friend who's white
and we're going to share books,
you know, even though it's not
really allowed during
this time, you know.
So all of which is to say the
risk taking is something
that I enjoy in writing YA.
And now I forgot your earlier
question, right?
>> Austin Ferraro: How did you
decide like where those dominoes
would fall after those
like, tiny little decisions?
>> Jennifer De Leon: Yeah,
I mean, that's the fun part.
Like they make a mistake
and it's consequential and
good writing, right,
has cause and effect.
So it's not like that
act is just by itself.
It's going to have
a ripple effect.
And you follow that.
And I don't know about you,
but I start with an image or
characters, but then
I follow the story.
I don't have an outline like in
Scrivener or an Excel sheet.
And I know some people are
like, I know exactly what's
going to happen on page 274,
and I don't really write that
way because the
characters guide me.
And depending on what they
choose, the good, the bad and
the ugly, like there
will be domino effects.
And it's kind of fun
to follow that too.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: Yeah, I'm
kind of the same type of writer.
I'm not really sure what's
going to happen, but I mean,
the best part about writing
is, especially YA, is that
in order to make
the story come alive,
and that's what you have
to develop some conflict.
And you do know that your
character is going to make bad
decisions, right? That's
what has to happen.
And so, yes.
So it seems like a very small,
inconsequential thing to just
accept a book, to
form a friendship.
I mean, what could possibly
go wrong with a Black girl
and a white girl just
sharing a book, you know,
and I've had people say to me.
You could just see the
writing on the wall like...
When I was reading about
Maya and the friend,
the relationship starts with
Sebastian. I'm like,
I can't right now.
I'm just going to stop.
Like, No, stop.
What are you doing?
And so I think in those moments
when you're reading as a reader
and you go, No, can't
you see this is wrong?
That's when you know the book
is going to be good, right?
It's not what you
know, It's good.
>> Austin Ferraro: I absolutely
had to put both of your books
down and be like, No, don't
do that. You're going to do it.
You're going to do it. Okay.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
So sometimes, you know, I mean,
I started off that way and
I wasn't sure what
was going to happen.
And then I thought, oh, wait
a minute, this could happen.
Oh, this could happen.
So I'm pretty much a, you know,
a seat of my pants type of
writer. And then I could see
that the stakes could get higher
and higher and higher and, you
know, the endings changed
a couple of times. And then,
yeah, the book evolved into
what it evolved into.
But yes, it always starts with
just a small, seemingly simple
bad decision and
then it explodes.
>> Austin Ferraro: You say the
stakes get higher and higher.
Is there a point at which
you're like, okay, we got it.
We got to dial it back.
The stakes are way too high.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: My
editor helped me to dial it back
because I had a really
high stakes thing.
And my editor said, that's
actually too high stakes.
That's not. Yes. So she helped
me to dial it back.
Yes. Yeah.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Most
writers have, I think,
the opposite problem
where it's like,
you got to turn up the dialer,
so that's really cool.
But that's great that your
editor is involved in that way
and able to help
shape the story.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: I mean,
sometimes I just go overboard.
Like if it were me, I could
kill off every character.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Oh, wow.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
Everybody's dead.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
I'm moving my chair.
[Laughing]
I'm just kidding.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
Isn't that great? You know?
And so... Lesa, I'm not sure.
This is a middle grade,
you know, I'm not.
I have to just kind of...
[Laughing]
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Yeah. I mean--
The stakes are really
high in Maya story.
I mean, she has to flee her
country with her mother for
their lives. She can't even
grab her backpack.
It's not like she has her cell
phone and her charger and, like,
her favorite outfit.
It's like they just run.
And through a series of events,
they go from the Guatemala
Mexico border through Mexico
to the Mexico-us border.
And they do hire a coyote.
And, you know, the coyotes
aren't always trustworthy.
So there were lots
of stakes there.
Like there were lots
of points of tension.
And the separation is something
I knew I wanted that
to happen at some point.
And so in order for the reader
to feel that pull that yanking
of a mother and a daughter from
each other, I needed to really
build their relationship and
show them throughout the
narrative before that point
to sort of earn that hurt.
And I know, I know and it's
hard as a writer, you know,
going through that, writing
that, and I'm very close with my
mom. I just even
imagining that happening.
And yet it is happening.
It's happening all the time.
It's happening right now.
And to know that there's that
uncertainty because life isn't
like a book, right. This
is some response I've gotten
from readers, actually.
And not to spoil the ending,
but people will write me,
you know, on Instagram or
whatever, and they're like,
I need another book. I need
to know what happens next.
I need to know and it's
interesting because we as
readers, I think like we want
Act I, Act II, Act III.
Not that every book ends
with a bow tied at the end,
but we want some resolution in
that satisfying way that books
when we close the
book, it gives us.
But this is a story that didn't
lend itself to that kind of
ending. And I was really happy
that my editor agreed and that
we settled on this ending
that I felt was a little more
realistic than, you know.
Anyway, lots more
to say. But yeah.
>> Austin Ferraro: Yeah. I was
definitely wondering how I was
sort of like looking at my
percentage on my phone going,
not sure, not sure how
this is going to end.
But I really like how
it did sort of like leave it
not necessarily open to
interpretation and I wouldn't
even say necessarily open to a
sequel, but open to like Maya's
still out there. Right.
And especially
with "Borderless".
When you're looking
at those teens
who are in that position,
what are you trying to
say to them? What message are
you trying to convey?
>> Jennifer De Leon:
So outside of Boston,
there's this town
that invited me.
The librarian invited me to
visit a group of students,
ESL students, English language
learners, and that's all she
shared, right? And so I went in
and they had pizza and soda, and
the kids were like sitting
in desks in a circle.
And I looked around and we did
intros and all, but maybe two
were from Guatemala and they
had all been in detention
centers and were seeking asylum
and had recently entered this
town and were going
to school there.
And I mean, I was like
beside myself the entire time.
And they were speaking in
Spanish and I was asking them
questions like what the
research I had done.
And I had gone to the border to
McAllen, Texas, and interviewed
migrants who had recently been
detained and at a humanitarian
respite center run by
the Catholic Church.
And in my interviews there
and seeing people like,
it wasn't in the past tense.
It was very real, like this.
Right. But seeing the students
who had gone through that
journey and asking them
questions and the book had been
written at that point. So I was
kind of like, I hope I got these
details right, but I would ask
them these questions.
And they just looked at me
like in awe, like you wrote
about us like,
our story mattered.
Like, it was very much like--
And I hope the book is
translated into Spanish because
I want them to be able to
experience it in that language.
But but they're like,
Yeah, we're here.
And I told them,
you can do this.
Like, of course
your story matters.
And I don't know.
All of which is to say that
it felt so powerful to see
the people, the readers, the
people that I'm writing for,
you know, like right there
in the flesh in that way,
in a classroom. And I hope
they write their own stories,
you know, that's
like the real goal.
Anytime you write a story, it
gives permission to someone else
to write their own
story or inspiration.
That's one of my favorite
quotes that...
"A candle loses nothing by
lighting another candle."
And so in that way, I hope our
books and stories inspire others
to write their own and
then give light back to us
to write even more.
>> Austin Ferraro: And what
was that research process
like for both of
you? Because, I mean,
that's very big, heavy topics.
I imagine that you were
also emotionally engaged
when you were doing that
research. And I imagine it was
kind of a lot at times.
So how did you manage that and
then putting those feelings
onto the paper?
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome: I mean,
the research was harrowing.
It was really
harrowing to read about
lynching and Jim Crow.
You know, I started, I think,
at the Lynching Museum,
I know they probably hate it.
I would keep referring
it to the lynching.
It's the Equal Justice Museum.
I believe the
actual name of it is.
But it was a great
history lesson.
It's part of history, something
that I certainly never learned
when I was in school.
But it just gave you a
really great overview.
But then I actually read a book
called "On Sanctuary," which is
the history of lynching.
And I was thankful that the
first part of the book were
a series of essays, and then the
second half were photographs.
And so I didn't look at
the photographs, but just
the essays were almost
equally as difficult as the
photographs, in part because
you are able to read the reasons
why people were lynched and
some of the reasons were for
people not removing their hat
fast enough or for being too
boastful or for being too
successful, or for not accepting
a job offer or for
laughing too loudly.
And I mean, sometimes I
would just sit there and
I would cry or I would just
close the book or I would go
take a walk. And you
realize there's a lot of
self care that you
have to practice.
I think when you're reading or
writing about too much trauma.
And so I was aware of that
for myself and I thought,
you're writing for a young
audience. And so I want to be
careful about putting too much
trauma, too much in one place.
And so what I also was
aware of is in reading this
about the trauma is the ways in
which people and community came
together to fight back.
And I wanted to be sure to put
that on the page as well.
The amount of sacrifice
and strength.
And the ways in which people
manage to preserve their dignity
and humanity
throughout this pain.
And I wanted to be sure that
came through just as clearly.
And so that was equally
important for me, too.
So even in the anger and pain
and sadness, there is strength
and sacrifice and
community also in the page
and in the book.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Yeah, I
imagine That was so difficult.
And the self care is real,
having to do that, right?
I mean, when I did go to the
U.S. Mexico border,
at that point, my son
was five months old
and I was still nursing.
I had to deal with all of that.
But I went for a few days and I
know people thought I know
because even in my family, are
you sure you want to go?
And I thought if mothers
and their children, fathers too,
right, are being separated,
like daily, hourly, like, the
least I can do is leave my
child, both my boys
for a few days and go
and be a witness.
And I think so much of writing
books that are about activism or
engage with themes
of social justice.
Right. Are about
bearing witness.
And I love doing
that as a writer.
I'm sure you do too. Like
it's the greatest honor and
privilege. And but part of that
work is it's hard because I
think we have a lot of
empathy and you need to,
to be a creative writer.
But then it's almost like the
radio frequency is like too much
too high when you're doing that
research and when you're in that
physical space, like
interviewing migrants and you're
seeing children and you're
just like, I can't compute.
I can't compute, like, this is
real, this is happening.
But then you have to
sort of shift gears.
And I almost it's like
in a car, I imagine.
I don't know much about cars,
but like if there's a--
What are the ones that have
two engines? Cars, planes?
Okay. Anyway, it's like, I need
to switch the engine, right?
And instead of using my like,
gen engine, I switch to like,
okay, I'm a writer and I'm
doing research and I'm going to
gather and I'm going to figure
out which details go in the
ultimate product, right?
It's like the iceberg effect.
Like you can't put everything
because that's my thing.
I'm like, and this
and this and this.
And my editor is like, we know
you've done the research, but
you need to peel back because
people aren't going to
bless you, respond to--
It's better if you choose fewer
details and really let them
stand out than if you're
like laundry list of all the
injustices, people are going to
kind of zone out and be like,
well, okay, or put the book
down or whatnot.
So I think that it's it's
important, though, to bear
witness in this way.
>> Austin Ferraro: So
before we open it up to
audience questions,
just what is--
If there's one thing that we
take away from this discussion,
what do you want it to be?
If there's one thing about your
book about this discussion,
what do you want
us to take away?
Big question. Surprise.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Yeah.
I mean, I would say that I hope
that you read the book and
you talk about it and pass it
to someone else, but ultimately
understand that it
is one story, right?
It's not representing all
migrants, all Central American
young people, all
teens from Guatemala.
But so it's kind of both, right?
It's like read this and
understand, like open yourself
to the injustices that are
happening here, but also the
dignity and the hope.
But then know that it's it's
one of many stories because
that's always the conundrum.
I think as an author of
color, it's kind of like
sometimes that comes up
like this is like I'm
representing. And that was a
pressure that I put on myself.
Certainly when writing like, I
have to get all of this in here
and it has to be 100% right.
And it's like, No, maybe this
is one of ten books that I write
on this topic. Like it doesn't
have to be like the one.
So I would say that just a
couple of small things there.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
I guess for me,
learning from history,
the stories from history are
an incredible parallel to the
stories from today.
And that connection, I
think for young readers is
really important, that we
somehow see history as
a period really in
the far distant past.
But if we don't make
corrections, these stories will
continue to happen.
And so often when I'm writing
stories from history,
my favorite genre is
dystopian literature.
And so I'm like, if you look
reading "Handmaid's Tale"
and you think, Oh my God,
can you believe that this
could happen? "Handmaid's Tale?"
Guess what? You know, if you
don't make course corrections
from what happened in the past,
you will wind up with
living in dystopia in what we
believe to never happen in the
future. So I like for young
readers to look at the past,
remember and see what is
happening now.
Be active. Be involved so that
you don't wind up with this
crazy dystopia in the future.
>> Austin Ferraro:
Thank you. All right.
So we have about ten minutes
for questions. If anyone has
them, we have a mic
there and a mic there.
And you are welcome to
come up to the mics and ask.
>> Hi. I'm glad you both did
some addressing of conversations
with your editors and have you
or do you anticipate any of
your books being banned?
And was this part of the
discussion with editors?
And finally, if you had the
opportunity to address
Moms for Freedom,
what would you say?
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
Well, I would--
[Laughing]
You don't want to hear
my real words to you.
[Laughing]
I would probably ask a question.
I'd probably ask,
what are you afraid of?
What are you afraid of?
I might ask, what do you read?
I mean, I just can't
imagine that readers
would be involved in
a movement like that.
And so I really don't have
conversations with my editor
about book banning.
I'm fortunate to have editors
who want me to write what I
write. And we we trust that
the books will find an audience,
perhaps not in Florida or
Texas, but they'll find their
way to an audience.
I can't imagine that "For Lamb"
is in in a couple of states.
I don't know.
But I guess we'll have to see.
I feel like I have to write
what I what I need to write,
and I'll just trust that
the books will find their way.
That's all I can do.
Keep speaking out and
keep writing my truth.
That's all. That's all I can do.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Absolutely. Yep.
My book has been banned
in Florida in a district in
Florida, and We Need Diverse
Books reached out to me, and
the way that they relayed that
information was so thoughtful.
You know, I felt like already
held by a community and the
response to it was great in
that they were able to overturn
that, you know,
from the community.
And We Need Diverse Books
is incredible in that they are
sponsoring virtual classroom
visits for authors of banned
books. And so they're
responding with that like, Oh,
okay, well we're going
to just be louder now.
And and I love that.
And and I think it's easy to
see like the bad part or
lack of a better phrase, you
know, of this whole
experience. But I'm
hopeful that it's a small
percentage, you know, and that
there are more readers and more
librarians and educators
like doing the good work.
And so it's easy to kind of
have our eyes go to like,
what's wrong? But I don't know.
My optimistic sense is like,
we're doing something right.
If, you know, people are
kind of pushing back
in that way, I don't know.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
I'm going to hold on to that.
Something I wanna hold on to.
Thank you for that.
>> Austin Ferraro:
All right.
Do we have any other
audience questions?
Oh, we do. Yay.
>> Can you hear me? Speaking
of dystopia, we're living it.
They're living it in Texas with
the superintendent closing
31 libraries in schools and
creating detention centers in
those schools for
problem children.
And if we have these
groups attacking
school libraries
and public libraries,
is there a workaround?
Can we get these books in
Florida where yours was banned
and in Houston into
these kids hands?
They need to-- Every
or any kids who go to look for
representation or learning
about other people or different
experiences. Are there
organizations that are,
you know, like the free library
books on corners and things?
There must be a way to keep
the books out there
and circulating.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
I'm not sure. Maybe Austin can--
I'm not really sure.
I know that Pen America has
been doing some work, and I'm
actually I had a difficult
choice and I talked to
a couple of other authors, but
I made a difficult decision.
I'm going to be attending a
conference of the
Association of School Librarians
in October in Florida,
which is a state that
I vowed I wouldn't visit.
But I am interested in hearing
about the work that is being
done. You know, another
author convinced me to--
She said, these are the people
who are really on the front
lines. They do need support and
we do need to be there, offer
support, and also find out what
is happening, what we can do to
better support them.
So I actually now am more
interested in attending the
conference to find out the work
that is being done and how we as
authors can help
to support them.
So we'll see what happens.
>> Austin Ferraro:
Yeah, just as a librarian
to throw that out there.
I will say that Twitter is a
place where teens have been very
active in getting books into
the hands of other teens.
Whenever there's a big
book ban that hits the
headlines, there is always a
group of teens that say, okay,
well, if you send these books
to this address through Amazon
or whatever, we will distribute
them to other teens.
So if you're really looking for
direct teen activism to support,
as much as I hate saying this,
I would check out
Twitter and keep an
eye on book Twitter.
>> Yeah.
I'm sorry that I came in late,
and I don't know your name.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Jennifer De Leon.
>> Thank you.
I happen to be a Director of
one of the Metco
programs in Marblehead.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Oh, my God.
Many, many, many,
many years ago.
And so, you know, obviously,
I was thrilled to hear.
So my perspective is slightly
different because we were busing
inner city African-American
children out to Marblehead.
And, you know, I was in direct
confrontation with the racism
that was involved.
So your story is important to
me because, you know, you don't
think about the other side of
the equation of other minorities
that were confronted with
racism based on their
assumptions that everybody was
in a program, a busing program.
So you kind of helped me
reconcile it.
I just wondered in your
presentation of the material,
again, you know, because what
I experienced was traumatic in
many ways because
the racism was overt.
It was clean and sanitary,
but yet and still it was there.
And so, you know, I was
privileged to work with these
children. But I just wondered,
your reconciliation around being
victimized by the assumption
and then those people
who were in the trenches.
>> Jennifer De Leon: Right.
Right. It's a big question.
And thank you for being
here and asking that.
I mean, I write about that
a lot in my personal essays.
It's called "White Space: Essays
on Culture, Race, and Writing."
And it's about the white
spaces I've been in physically,
but also the white
space of the page.
And again, the page is a place
where I've gone to reconcile and
do that work.
I certainly have a lot of
material from growing up in a
predominantly white town as a
Latina, and so I think that will
always be something
I write about.
But again, books and literature
are great space to do that, and
I'm happy to talk
more afterwards.
>> Austin Ferraro: We have time
for about one more question.
>> I just want to
make a quick comment.
By attempting to ban a book,
the book becomes more
powerful, not less.
In other words, for every one
person who is dissuaded or
prevented from reading it,
there are 10 or 100 who wind up
picking it up as a result.
So that doesn't work
and it will never work.
Thank you.
>> Jennifer De Leon: All right.
>> Austin Ferraro:
Yeah, go ahead.
>> Both of your stories,
I'm just thinking about the
ways in which teens who are
reading about elsewhere or
reading about the past might
make connections to now.
I am on the Education
Committee of the
Montgomery County
Lynching Memorial Project
that's working in
Montgomery County to
reconcile and remember
the three lynchings
that we had in
Montgomery County.
And I've been to McAllen,
Texas, to the Catholic Charities
center, which struck me was
seeing people there when they
wrote down their destination,
say, Silver Spring, Maryland.
And so sometimes we think what
is far away is actually quite
local. And what is in
the past is actually now.
And when you were writing your
books, did you think about what
teens might want to do next
after they read your books?
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
I am always thinking about
what they would like to do next.
I do hope that it inspires
a recognition
and empowerment.
And the need to get out there.
Be a voice.
I'm sorry. Time is up.
But just to get out
there and be a voice,
I'd love to speak to
you more afterwards.
>> Jennifer De Leon: I think
that's a great place to end on.
Use your voice. Right.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
Thank you for that.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Thank you all so much.
>> Lesa Cline-Ransome:
Thank you, Austin.
>> Jennifer De Leon:
Yes, thank you, Austin.
[Applause]
[Music]