>> Edward Miner: On behalf of the Library's African and Middle Eastern Division, I am pleased to welcome you to this next segment in our signature webcast series, "Conversations With African Poets and Writers." I am Dr. Edward Miner, head of the African Section here today with Curator of Ethiopian Collections, Mr. Fentahun Tiruneh. For more than 60 years, the African section has served as the focal point for Africa based research collections and services at the library. Within the division, it is one of three sections, including the Hebraic and Near East, that provide access to research collections of unmatched depth and breadth, documenting the literatures, cultures and histories of regions extending from the southern tip of Africa to the Mediterranean coast across the Middle East to Central Asia, and down to the Indian Ocean islands. The library holds rich gcollections in major African languages such as Hausa, Wolof, Arabic, Amharic, Tigrinya, Somali, Kiswahili, Malagasy, and Zulu, as well as hundreds of lesser known languages. The African and Middle Eastern Division is pleased to present a conversation with Chris Beckett and Alemu Tebeje, co-editors and co-translators of "Songs We Learn From Trees," an anthology of Ethiopian Amharic poetry published by Carcanet Press in 2020. Poet and translator Chris Beckett won the Poetry London Competition in 2001, and in 2015 was shortlisted for the Ted Hughes Award for a collaboration with Japanese artist and sculptor Isao Miura, titled, "Sketches From the Poem Road." Carcanet Press has also published two poetry collections of Chris Beckett's about his boyhood in Ethiopia, entitled respectively, "Ethiopia Boy" in 2013 and "Tenderfoot" in 2020. Alemu Tebeje is an Ethiopian poet, translator and journalist. His poems have been published in Amharic, Chinese and English, as well as being projected on buildings in Denmark, Italy, USA and UK by U.S. artist Jenny Holzer. His first bilingual collection of poems, "Greetings to the People of Europe," was published by Tundra Books in 2018 and includes the script of a sketch commissioned by BBC radio for a migrant re-imagining of Homer's odyssey, "My Name is Nobody." So welcome, Chris and Alemu. It's a decided pleasure to have you here today. "Songs We Learn From Trees," is unique in that it is the first anthology of Amharic poetry in English translation. Beyond that, it is remarkable in how it anthologizes both oral and written poetic traditions. Can you tell us more about the genesis of this project? >> Alemu Tebeje: Thank you. Edward, for having us and thank you for your lovely introduction. It's because of Chris love for Ethiopian poetry we came to know each other and started translating into English. I remember it is in the middle of February 2006 that an email message arrived to my inbox. This message was from a stranger named Chris Beckett, who asked me if I could help him to get in touch with the Ethiopian poet laureate, Tsegaye Gabre-Medhin. By the time Tsegaye was in New York, not in good condition, health condition. After two weeks, Chris message arrived to my inbox. Suddenly the great Tsegaye passed away and I broke the bad news to him. And we also two weeks after this happened, we invite, we organize. We Ethiopians in London organized an event to honor and remember Tsegaye Gabre-Medhin. I also invited Chris to this memorial event. We introduced to each other at the event and then started translating Amharic poems from time to time. We started to translate [inaudible] work, Hama Tuma, the late Hailu Gebreyohannes or known as Gemoraw and so on. Then we publish the poems in Modern Poetry Translation and Review and other UK poetry magazines. My poems, including "Greeting to the People of Europe," also published. And later on, Michael Smith of Carcanet Press, our publisher, asked us if we can do Amharic anthology, and we accepted the offer with great pleasure. That is how we started working on this book. >> Chris Beckett: Yeah, I mean, you know, Alemu just puts it in a nutshell... why i was looking for Tsegaye Gabre-Medhin the great so-called poet laureate of Ethiopia was because I wanted to write poems about my childhood, but I wanted to write them... You know, I'd been writing sonnets and, you know, basically English language forms of poetry, villanelles and, you know, things like that and thought, well, this just doesn't go with writing about Ethiopia. You know, how can you write about, you know, sonnets about Ethiopia, which is what I was doing. So I tried to find, you know, Ethiopian poetry in translation because my Amharic wasn't good enough to actually read you know, the originals. So, you know, I went to Foyles Bookshop in downtown London, and I bought the Penguin Book of Modern African Poetry and didn't even look inside it. I took it home and I opened it at home. And what did I find? That it had not a single Ethiopian poet in there. It didn't mention Ethiopia in the foreword or the, you know, the introduction, Ethiopia just didn't exist. This was the sort of Africa without Ethiopia and I was very shocked. And then I became very angry and thought, "Well, listen, I have to do this myself then." I have to, you know, find people who can help me to bring Ethiopian poetry out of this sort of vacuum that it seemed to be in... not in terms of itself of course, Ethiopian poetry is never, you know, has always been an incredibly vibrant space. But in terms of what the outside world knows about it, it was, you know, basically zero i mean i think a few, i think a few of Tsega poems and a few poems of Solomon Darsa had been included in Wole Soyinka's anthology back in the 60s. I've forgotten the name of it, but basically there was no mention of Ethiopian poetry anywhere I could find in terms of English language. So that's how we started. And eventually as Alimu said, you know, Michael Schmidt, who had been publishing my own poems and who published "Ethiopia Boy," he then asked us if we would do an anthology of Ethiopian poetry. And we thought, WOW! this is an incredible honor, an incredible, you know, big job. And the other person who advised us at that time was a guy called Martin Orwin, who was professor of Amharic and Somali at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. And he said to me, "Chris, listen, you know, Ethiopian poetry is not just Amharic. Ethiopian poetry is poetry in every you know... there are more than 80 languages in Ethiopia, Fentahun, yeah. So, you know, you can't talk about an Ethiopian anthology. You have to talk about an Ethiopian Amharic anthology." So that set us on the path. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Well, Chris and Alemu, it's a pleasure to have your introduction, and I also want to congratulate you on your success in publishing the first Amharic Ethiopian anthology of Amharic poems. I'm sure this work will have acceptance internationally, and that its contents will bring forth appreciation of the uniqueness of Ethiopian styles of poetry construction. My question would be what your criteria has been in the selection of poems that you included in your anthology and the poets, poets, and poems in general? >> Chris Beckett: Alemu, do you want to tackle that one first? >> Alemu Tebeje: Yeah, let me try. Actually, in this book, we try to represent all generation of poets in Ethiopia and Amharic poetry. We started with the 20th century greats such as Tsegaye Gebremedhin Mengistu Lemma, Debebe Seifu, Yohannes Admasu and from the contemporary poets like [inaudible] and others. Some of these poets were my professors when I started, when I studied Ethiopian language and literature. The works of this and other poets were used as reference during my study, so I know already about their works and contributions. So also Chris went to Ethiopia to meet my literature professor from Addis Ababa University and sought advice and support from the university professor, literature professors on the selection. >> Chris Beckett: Yeah. I mean, what happened was that Alemu couldn't go to Ethiopia. So I went and because we... you know, Alemu was very, very knowledgeable about Ethiopian poetry, but not so much at that time anyway, about contemporary, you know, the latest what was going on in the Addis. And so I went and, you know, I had no way of knowing how to go about it either. So I went to meet Alemu's literature professor at Addis University, but he wasn't there at that time. So I was introduced to a wonderful man called Wanderson Adani, who's I think a lecturer in poetry at Addis University. And he basically made me a list of 13 important contemporary poets living in Ethiopia and working in Ethiopia. And, you know, they included people like [inaudible], all of whom are in the book. And, you know, so I went with my friend [inaudible] and another friend, [inaudible], her brother and a friend of mine [inaudible]. And we went around seeing meeting these poets that Wanderson had introduced me to, or who give me the names and the contact details, and then later on another trip, because what we ended up with was virtually all men. And we, you know, that doesn't represent Ethiopian poetry. So we needed more women poets. We had, I think, just a couple. We had Meron Getnet [inaudible] both of whom are fantastic, but we needed a few more for this, you know, to adequately represent the Ethiopian poetry scene. So I was introduced to a chap called Tibebu Belete who was chairman of the Ethiopian Literary Association and also has a radio station, a very, very likeable man. And he told me that I had to look at the work of Kebedech Tekleab living in New York, but also of the founders of Tobiya Poetry and Jazz, which is this amazing monthly poetry happening in Addis where, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people turn up and they do music as well as poetry. But anyone who's a poet in Ethiopia reads for Tobiya Poetry and Jazz. It's an amazing place. And it was dreamt up and run by two amazing poets, Misrak Terefe and Mihret Kebede. And they're both, you know, went to see them and got them to give me some of their poems and we took it from there. Then, you know, the way that you actually if you can't, if you don't meet the poets, the way to to find out is you go to the Piazza district of... Fentahun well knows, you go to the Piazza and you buy lots of poetry books. And if they don't have it, they look around in other stalls to find it. So it's a very pleasurable and interesting process. And then so I bought all these books, brought them back to London and we went through with, you know, gradually over a matter of years, we went through all these books with Alemu and picked poems which we liked, that was the criteria. Do we like them or not? [Laughs] I'm sorry, it's a very subjective process, but that's what we did. And then the other wonderful thing that happened, which Alemu hasn't talked about yet, was that there are quite a few poets working in the West, working in, you know, outside Ethiopia who are 100% Ethiopian, ethnically Ethiopian, but writes in English. So we wanted to include them. And what happened was that I already knew about [inaudible] because she won the African... the Brunel University African Poetry Prize a few years ago, but also Lemn Sissay, the great Lemn Sissay, who approached me at an Ethiopian literary festival in London and said, "Can I be in the anthology?" And of course I said, "Well, I've just been trying to find the way of, you know, of finding you and asking you to be in it." But so that's what... that's a bit of how we chose the poets. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Just as a follow up. Maybe I'm missing something about [inaudible] and Hama Tuma. I don't know them as poets or having written any poems. >> Chris Beckett: Yeah, that's very good. I mean, Hama has written poems, amazing poems. I think he's one of the greatest Ethiopian poets, actually. But he writes in English. He writes poetry in English. Yes [inaudible]. Yes, he's much better known as a novelist. But he writes amazing poems as well. And he was on the list that [inaudible] at his university gave me. He said, "This guy, you have to watch him. He's a really good poet." So, you know, we liked his poems, so we included them. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Thank you. >> Chris Beckett: That's right, isn't it, Alemu? Please don't let me hog the limelight here. >> Alemu Tebeje: Yes, that's right. Until we started to translate [inaudible] I was taught that he is a novelist. I was not aware of that. But with Hama, he just published only one Amharic book in Amharic. Otherwise, the remaining poems were written in English. So... >> Chris Beckett: Yeah. So he has written one, I'm wrong. He has written one book in Amharic [inaudible] yeah? But I came across him because he's an old friend of Alemu's and a wonderful man. And I love his short stories as well. Do you know his short stories, Fentahun? >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Yes, I do. Yeah, but... >> Chris Beckett: Aren't they amazing? >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Yes, they are. >> Chris Beckett: I just giggle and giggle and giggle. It's just so wonderful. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Right. Okay I guess that'll be sufficient. >> Edward Miner: Okay, great. So, since I started interacting with the anthology, and I've gotten to know one of the poets published featured in the anthology Kebedech Tekleab who's actually gave a wonderful lecture and reading at the library a couple of weeks ago. I've been seeing how the poet, how Amharic poets and lovers of Amharic poetry deal with the idea of translation. Translation was part of the critical work that had to be done in order to establish the accessibility of this tradition or these traditions to an international audience. But translation is not an exact rendering of the experience of the poem in Amharic. It entails acts of creation, acts of interpretation, acts of cultural transposition, and in Kebedech Tekleab work, she takes translation as a space, an experiential space to explore through juxtaposing her poetry and her sculpture in dialogue with one another. And the more you think about translation, it seems at every turn to create dialogues and sort of, you know, exchanges, conversations between the subjectivities of poets and of translators. And then there's the question is translating someone else's poetry a creative process in itself? And so translation is a multifaceted subject, and especially in this context where you're talking about opening a world of Amharic poetry, poetic traditions through several generations to the entire world. So how... can you talk about your experiences in translating work, and how much are you able to actually inhabit, say, the subjectivity of a poet that you're translating? How much do you really understand about the their experience of writing the poem, or is it really a case where there are now multiple poets coming into the process? I understand, I can appreciate it's an incredibly complicated and messy process, and I'd love to hear you talk about the messiness. [Laughs] >> Chris Beckett: Alemu, do you want to go first or? >> Alemu Tebeje: Yeah, I think it is, as you said, it's very hard and nearly impossible to transfer and for a translator to bring fully all the layers of meanings and artistic elements of a source poem into the target language. However, he can capture most of them and recreate it. So that is what we do. We recreate the source poems. Chris and I either work together on a poem, sitting next to each other, deciding what every line means and trying to find a rough English translation. Or else I or Chris does a rough translation and sends the poem to the other. And then we go back and forth on the English translation until we are happy. We have tried to interpret as many possible layers of meanings of each source poems and record a poem in English, which is readable and enjoyable. So practically we recreate the poems I think if I'm not wrong. >> Chris Beckett: There's so many ways of translating and it's such a subjective process, of course. And I suppose the best, the most amazing experiences when you're translating with the poet. Because most of these poets do speak English. And, you know, for example, going back and forth with [inaudible] on, what's the first poem of hers in the anthology? "Cotton Life." You know, you think you know what the poem means, and then you talk to the poet, and the poet has a different take on it. Not on the whole, but on, you know, various words or, you know, different things in the poem. And that's an eye opening experience, which you don't get, obviously, if you're not talking to the poet direct and some of the poets, whether they're dead or just unavailable and not easy to get hold of and to talk to and stuff, and we did try to... Well, I went again to Ethiopia, and because we needed their permission to publish the poems. So we went and we showed them the translations, and we tried to go through them with each of the poets and say, "Listen, what do you think? You know, have you got... You know, have we got this wrong? You know, have you got any comments?" One of the most commenting poet was Zewdu Milikit up in [inaudible], who basically, you know, he writes a lot of allegorical poems. Poems with a political, you know, the I suppose, standard, if you call it standard type of wax and gold where you're not... You know, he has a poem called "My Silly Stomach," [inaudible] [inaudible] and, you know, I said, so what is this? Is this political or is it just about your stomach? And of course, it's a very political poem. Yes, one of the really interesting things to do with, you know, what is translation and how it works was we did a tour, myself, Alemu supported by the Arts Council in UK of where we invited six Ethiopian poets, including Kebedech by the way, to come and tour various cities in the UK. In part, a part of that was a workshop, a translation workshop in Oxford, in Queen's College, Oxford, where we had 15 participants, and we invited them to have a go at translating a poem by [inaudible], which we gave them a rough translation, rough literal translation, and they basically came up with 15 completely different translations of the same poem. And then I can't remember if it was I or Alemu, we read our version of it, which was again number 16. It was totally different from from what the others, there was a thread obviously, there was similarities, but there was a lot of differences in emphasis and in just in the words used and in the rhythm. The whole atmosphere of the poem was quite different. And the interesting thing, of course, is that we had [inaudible] sitting there, and actually it was quite critical of my [inaudible] version. He liked other versions more. So it was a, you know, I think just to say that translation is... you know, any translation you read on the page is not the end of it. It can be something you like, but it can be... It's standing in for an original which you can't see in a way. So it's trying to convey something of the poem, but it's a very subjective process. You know, a process also because we work together, me and Alemu. It's a process of negotiation in a way, trying to negotiate, you know, how to put a poem in a such a different sounding language into... you know, Amharic has got full of plosive consonants and, you know, double words and God knows what. And it's very, very... it just sounds completely different in English. And so if you try to convey something of it, it's, you know, you're making choices all the time, which are very difficult to justify in a way. But also, you know, that, you know, you have to choose, otherwise you're never going to get to a translation. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Well, Chris and Alemu, you may have answered one of my following questions in the process, but I would like to ask it. And this is especially about the Qene poetry. You have included some in a measured way and it's... I'm curious about how... Well, I want you to share your experiences, actually, how you can... How difficult it was. How you approached the process of translating any poetry into English, and what did you compensated with? I mean, because there's supposed to be, I think, a loss in the meaning of the Qene poetry when it's translated into another language, let alone I mean, even an ordinary poem is not as you... is difficult as you mentioned. So could you share some of your experiences in the translation of Qene poetry? That's my question, actually. >> Chris Beckett: I think we're going to disappoint Fentahun, aren't we? >> Alemu Tebeje: Yeah. Actually, [inaudible] we cited in the book are translated by others especially... >> Chris Beckett: Did you know that, Fentahun? >> Fentahun Tiruneh: No, I didn't. >> Alemu Tebeje: Yeah. We mentioned. But in general the word [inaudible] is derived from as you know Fentahun from [inaudible] name means he thanks or praises. So [inaudible] means he writes and praises God in poem. I think the word [inaudible] are overlapping in their use. Because if you read [inaudible] "Love to the Grave" of Haddis Alemayehu, the priests in that book praise the Fitawrari. So they are not religious, those praises... those poems in the book are not religious. Actually, they are secular. They were... The priests were praising Fitawrari in [inaudible]. So that is why I said, the two words are overlapping in their use and meaning. So but in general, I think in general... The first one [inaudible] is more of religious in origin and uses, and [inaudible] or poem is general and most of the time secular. So we can say that most of the the poems included in this book can be called [inaudible]. >> Chris Beckett: Yeah. I mean, the thing is that, you know, Alemu and I are not [inaudible] poets. We don't know, you know, [inaudible] is amazingly broad and deep and historical, we just don't know enough about it and we don't speak or read and write [inaudible] either. So, you know, we just thought, well, we can't, you know, we need to include it, but we're not the right people to translate it. So what we did was we looked at the Journal of Ethiopian Studies, found Donald Levine's, you know, very well known translations of a few [inaudible] poems. We included those with the, you know, deeper meanings in brackets. We found a book of [inaudible] which is fantastic by [inaudible] another book which we found in Piazza and recommended it... could recommend it to anybody because it's got you know, rough English translations in it as well as, you know, a story about the poet and then, you know, some info about the biblical references in the poems. But, you know, maybe the most important one and the one that Fentahun you picked on, is the [inaudible] poems and that, I don't know if you know [inaudible]? She's a wonderful Ethiopian writer who lives in England, and she wrote a wonderful book called "The Wife's Tale." And her grandfather was [inaudible] and her father [inaudible] put out this book of his father's [inaudible] and he assembled all these [inaudible] can't remember, I think it's 200 of them. And then he took them to scholars, you know, of [inaudible] and he asked them to comment. And so what we've done is we've taken two of those poems, translated by the son of the poet, and added and included his the what do they call them, the mystery and the purpose to show. And then we've commented a bit in the notes and I think Fentahun, you are a bit frustrated that the notes were not quite enough or in the wrong place. And I agree with you. I think that they could have been we could have organized it differently. But yeah, we didn't. I suppose we didn't want Alemu, we didn't want to over balance the book because once, you know, I mean, the whole book could have become a discussion of [inaudible] because it's such a, you know, huge field. But, you know, we also didn't try to translate folk poems. The folk poems in the book are translated by people like [inaudible]. These people are professionals. They know what they're doing. They go into the field, they find the poems. You know, we can't replicate that. But we wanted this book to include, you know, those fields because they inform not only for themselves. I mean, I think they're very enjoyable poems themselves, right Alemu? But also because they, you know, you can see the effect and the way that contemporary poets are influenced by [inaudible] and by folk poetry. In themes, I mean, for example, I was just thinking about one example to me is Meron Getnet, her poem "Prototype," which we've got in the anthology, which is basically taking a biblical story like a [inaudible]. Taking biblical story about the birth, you know, the birth of the first woman of Eve and then turning it on its head, giving it a contemporary feminist interpretation which is so exciting to me anyway. Sorry if we disappointed you, Fentahun. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: No, no, no. On the contrary, I'm so happy that you have included Qene poetry in the anthology. And, you know, it's an introduction. >> Chris Beckett: What we hope Fentahun is that people would be, you know, oh, my God, I want to find out more about this and then go and find out more about it. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: That's what I was coming to. Yes. But maybe as a follow up question, maybe you give me your thoughts. If there is a need for another anthology of any poetry in itself, if you suggest somebody else do it or you do it, or from using different languages of the country. I mean, [inaudible] Qene there's Amharic Qene and there is [inaudible] Qene, and those may need to be represented in an anthology of some sort. What are your thoughts? >> Alemu Tebeje: Yes. I think as you know, Ethiopian literature starts from the fourth century, almost nearly 2000 years old. So it's not touched, it's not open for the outside world. A lot of ontologists need to be done and we are hoping that this will open the door. In regard to other Ethiopian language, we don't speak or know enough about other languages, but we are hoping that others will be encouraged and incentivised by this book and more anthologies will come in the future. >> Chris Beckett: Yeah. I would add, actually, that Chris Abani, an African American poet who chose the anthology as one of three finalists for the Glenna Luschei Prize in 2022, 2021. I can't remember when it was. Anyway, he said he hoped in his comments on the anthology, he said he hoped to see in the future individual collections by, you know, various other poets featured in the anthology. And, you know, every book of poems there's a lot of work. And we've only, you know, we've only touched the surface in a way. So really, the book is in a way a call, as Alemu was saying, it's a call for other people to get involved, and especially, I think, people of an Ethiopian background, you know. One of the poets we didn't include in the book because we didn't know about her until the last minute, is Martin [inaudible]. Do you know Martin [inaudible]? She's a wonderful, wonderful poet, American poet but of, I think second generation. You know, I think her parents moved to America from Ethiopia. So, you know, if some of these poets who are growing up in America or in England or wherever in Europe, in Germany with an Ethiopian background, could understand that translation is actually and has been, you know, forever part of a poet's work. Do you understand what I mean? I mean, if you look back in English, you know, the experience of English literature, people like Thomas Wyatt in the 16th century and the Earl of Surrey and who else, you know, Shakespeare were translating sonnets from Italian into English, then writing their own sonnets. So, you know, if you're an Ethiopian poet living in London, you know, what we're trying to say in this book is don't just try to write your own poems. Go back, you know, take poems of poets that you love, Ethiopian poets that you love and try and, you know, translate those poems because that's the way that those poems will enter your own work. You see what I mean? >> Edward Miner: I have a quick question following on something you said. Is translation a form of consumption? I mean, it's a creative process, but is it in some measure, the consumption of another poet's kind of interiority? You see, because you have an experience. You appreciate the poem that in new levels, when you have to figure out how to capture its essences in another language. But it's a specific way of reading it or ingesting it of becoming it as you create something like a translation or maybe a new experience. Does that resonate? Do those kinds of thoughts resonate at all with your own experience in translation? >> Chris Beckett: With mine, yes, absolutely. Because you can read a poem and you think, "Oh yes, this is great, I love it, I like it, you know, I don't like it," or whatever. But until you try to translate it, you don't you don't really appreciate it in the same way, because you don't have to wrestle with it in the same way as your word ingest or... Yeah, I suppose it is a good metaphor for what translation is. You eat it and then you sort of somehow regurgitate it. You won't say something else, which would be a bit rude. But you do put it out again in your own language. So it is a process which is very personal and very... it's a fascinating process, but it's also, it can unsettle you and it does unsettle you. In fact, it's probably a good thing, but, yeah. Like your metaphor of ingestion because it does feel when you're trying to find the right words or trying to understand what the bloody poet is talking about, that it's like eating something very tough. It's, you know, it's a stale... It's not a stale bread. What's the... you know, it's something it's not, you know, it's not an omelet. It's a sort of cheese sandwich, I suppose, really, because it's got sort of toughness in there. It's not easy. It's, yeah. What do you think, Alemu? Do you think it's a bit like eating? >> Alemu Tebeje: Yeah, I agree, I think partly it consume you, but partly it triggers your new creativity. It show you it's [inaudible] to a new approach. And yeah, it triggers new imagination. And just to see from your own... to recreate back to the target language. >> Chris Beckett: Yeah. It really tells you... I mean, you're forced to study how the poem is put together and what it's about. And so many things about the poem that you appreciate the you know, you do appreciate it in a different way and that is definitely going to influence your own... You know, when you next pick up the pen or the computer, you're going to, you know, you're obviously going to be affected, you know, in your own creativity. We're both poets, Alemu and myself. So, you know, our poetry has been affected by a lot of the people in the book. In fact, by all of them. All of them. So I'd never thought of it as eating and think it's a very good simile or metaphor. What do you call it? >> Fentahun Tiruneh: What if you don't mind sharing? What has been the reaction of your readers so far? Have you heard any encouraging words? Have you... >> Chris Beckett: We've had... I don't know, Alemu you follow me. But the first review we had in America was very negative, very negative and for two reasons. Firstly, because it most of the poems don't rhyme in our translations. Most Ethiopian poetry rhymes. And, you know, we just thought that as soon as you try to rhyme in English, you divert the poem from where it's going because you're searching for that rhyme. Especially when it's an end, you know, an end rhyme. And in modern poetry in English, you know, end rhyme is not the end of it. You know, if you don't want to end rhyme or if you can't find the end rhyme, you can use a lot of other ways to make it hang the poem, hang together. It's not just about end rhymes. But the reviewer was very angry that it... that the poems didn't rhyme. And he also couldn't believe that a poem could be as short as two lines. He quoted a couple of the folk poems, which are two lines and he said, "Where does it go from here? You know, why is it... why does it stop here? You know, this is not a poem," you know. So basically his criticism was that it wasn't poetry. And secondly, he criticized us as translators, and he said rather sweetly that he looked forward to reading poems by some of these poets, translated by other translators. And he mentioned poets whose poems in the book were actually written by them in English. So what he was doing without knowing it, because he hadn't bothered to look up the acknowledgements, was that he was criticizing the Ethiopian poets. In fact, he criticized the translation so-called of Tsegaye Gabre-Medhin's poems, which Tsegaye wrote in English. So we didn't translate them at all. And then from that sort of scale, we've had the opposite scale. Chris Abani at [inaudible] was possibly the best, but we've had, you know, many, many, you know, I mean many, many magazine reviews, many, many online things, you know, 99% positive. There have been some people saying, you know, that the experience of reading our translation doesn't give you the same experience as reading the the Amharic original. And for that, you know, what can we say? We apologize. You know, because it isn't the same experience. It really isn't, you know, and it can't be. You know, trying to get the same experience, you know, is bound to fail eventually because it's not the same language, it's not the original poem. If you want the original poem, you have to go to the original poem. Alemu, you agree with that, don't you? >> Alemu Tebeje: Yeah, I think Christopher, you forgot it. One of his critics is that... And he is expecting, based on the title of the book [inaudible] he said that he was expecting oral poems, not written poems. So just that comes out of ignorance, I think. >> Chris Beckett: But then the oral poems that he commented on, he only said they were too short. >> Alemu Tebeje: Yeah. But regarding positive feedback, we have received a lot of encouraging and positive feedback from both Ethiopia and here in UK. It's very encouraging and yeah, we are happy with the outcome so far. >> Chris Beckett: And poems have been reprinted in "Poetry Daily and Poetry International" in all sorts of university magazines in and reviews as well. It's been wonderful in terms of the response, but the response we haven't had is what we're looking for is for it to inspire people to actually start doing their own translations and actually, you know, translating as Fentahun you said other poetry in other languages. There's a big poetry in Oromo. A huge poetry in Oromo. Many Oromo poets living in the USA, because they're presumably political exiles. Where is their poetry? Where are the translations of [inaudible]? You know, that's what we would like to encourage, by this anthology. Because we're not the people to do that. We don't speak Oromo. We don't speak, you know, any of the other languages. >> Fentahun Tiruneh: I think you have done a wonderful job and wish you good luck in the future in your future endeavors. >> Chris Beckett: Thank you for your interest, Fentahun. Really, really positive for us and your friendship with [inaudible] as well, which is amazing. She's an amazing poet and artist. Did you go to her show? >> Fentahun Tiruneh: It was part of the show. >> Chris Beckett: You were part of the show? No, I mean not the Library of Congress, but her show in Washington, you know, her art show? >> Fentahun Tiruneh: Yes. Edward and I attended. >> Edward Miner: Chris and Alemu, we thank you so much for talking through the process of imagining an anthology of imagining a pathway of accessibility for interior word art created in African languages like Amharic to find an international audience. It's a fraught, forever tenuous, and always incomplete endeavor. And we look forward to seeing you continue these kind of efforts in the future with additional anthologies. We thank you kindly for your time and your conversation today. >> Chris Beckett: Thank you very much. >> Alemu Tebeje: Thank you very much for having us.