>> Austin Ferraro: Okay,
so just before we start,
to contextualize some
stuff for our audience,
we are going to be talking
about characters who
belong to specific groups,
and we are going to use
specific wording for
that. We are going to refer
to Miles from "Compound
Fracture" as autistic,
and we are going to
refer to the characters
in "Looking for Smoke" as native.
Um, these are the words that these
characters use for themselves,
the words that the authors
use for these characters.
This is not necessarily indicative
of every single person
who shares those identities.
So just like this is what we're
using for today, this is what
these people use. But if you
are, you know, interacting in
public online or whatever, and
you are interacting with someone
who has these identities,
always listen to the person
you're speaking to about how
they would like to be addressed.
Cool.
[Applause]
So with that out of the way,
I'm going to say, first off,
I am not a person who gets
emotional about books.
So I am personally offended that
both of you made me feel feelings.
[Laughter]
Especially you.
Because I did "Looking
for Smoke" on audio.
And so I just, you know, opened
it up on my phone, started like
doing my meal prep, hit play,
and all of a sudden I'm just,
like, feeling emotions in the first,
like, what is this? First chapter.
So now that I have prefaced
that, can you both tell us
a little bit about the books
we're talking about today?
Yes. So "Looking for Smoke" is a
young adult thriller, and it follows
four Blackfeet teens.
They live on the Blackfeet Reservation,
and it's following them
as they're grappling with the
murder of a classmate who
they each had a fraught
relationship with.
And because each of them were
the last to see her alive,
they all become suspects.
And if they want to clear their
names, they're going to have to
trust each other, even though
one of them could be the
murderer. It has four
alternating POVs.
We have Morissette, who is
struggling to find her place
because she just recently moved there.
We have Lauren Arnow, who is
stuck in the throes of angry grief
since her sister went
missing a few months ago.
We have Brody Clark, who is
fighting against the change that
all this trauma is bringing,
and we have Eli First Kill who
has his walls up and he's keeping
secrets, but he has his reasons.
And like Austin said,
it shines a light on the
epidemic of missing and
murdered indigenous women,
which, if you didn't know, is
an issue that plagues both the
US and Canada.
And there's a prevalent problem
where native women are the
victims of violent crime far
more often than any other group.
The murder rate of these women
is three times more than that of
white women, and in some
locations it's ten times the
national average.
So these characters are grappling
with this real world problem.
So on its surface, like I said,
it's a thriller where
teen suspects are trying to clear
their names while a killer is in
their midst. But at its heart,
it's a story of resilience and
community and fighting for your
loved ones, no matter the cost.
>> Andrew Joseph White:
And I am so excited for it.
"Compound Fracture" is my third book.
It is my first thriller.
It is a young adult thriller,
following Myles Abernathy,
a 16 year old, a trans autistic
teenager from Twist Creek County
in West Virginia, which is
based on my mama's home county
of Tucker County.
My mama was in the first row here.
[Applause]
There are some places
that are like block for block,
like Thomas, West Virginia,
Parsons, West Virginia.
It is written the way that
I speak, when I spend too
much time around my extended
family, and you start to hear
a little bit of the drawl, like
when, you know, five becomes
five and you know, it's
pronounced oil instead of oil.
And the main character,
Miles, is his great great
grandfather was Saint Abernathy,
who was a union leader
or a attempted union leader
in a non-union mine that
was facing a lot of danger and
deaths, and after a failed
mine revolt was executed
by law enforcement.
And 100 years later, the
Abernathy family is still
dealing with the aftereffects
of that failed mine revolt,
especially because the sheriff
that killed Saint Abernathy is
related to the sheriff that is
now terrorizing Miles's family,
and it is up to Miles to try
and figure out something that
could help save his family and
save his community and get them
out from under the boot
of this corrupt sheriff.
There is also a cool ghost of
Saint Abernathy that is helping
Miles out here.
There are some great members
of Miles's family who are
definitely not based on my own.
[Laughter]
Who am I kidding?
I say it literally in the dedication.
[Laughter]
And some folks that
are going to help him out.
And it is a book about community
and the fact that the lone--
that the American idea of
the lone wolf going to fix the
problem is a myth.
And you cannot do anything
without community and the people
that you love around you.
I am so excited for this book, and I
can't wait to foist it on all of you.
[Laughter]
It's your problem now.
It's off my plate.
Get it away from me.
>> Austin Ferraro: So I think
I'm going to just jump right in
with the big question
without spoilers.
Both of you have characters
who end up in situations
where there is not a peaceful
solution, and they really have
to take matters into their own
hands. And, you know, YA,
obviously we need to put them in
a situation where
they're doing the thing.
Otherwise there's no plot.
Um, but in this specific case,
the characters almost
don't have a choice, right?
So why did you put your
characters in a position where
the thing that they had to do
was take direct action
themselves, instead of waiting
for the people around them
to take that action?
>> Andrew Joseph White: I think for me,
when it comes to that, you have to--
We have to-- One of the reasons
that I write YA is that I am
trying to communicate to the
kids that you know are going to
be reading these books
because, yes, adults read YA.
Frankly, I don't care what they think.
I didn't write it for you.
I wrote it for kids.
And unfortunately, one of the
things that I'm seeing with
society at large is that
massive issues are being
unfortunately left in
the next generation.
Issues that adults or older
adults should have fixed but
didn't out of their own.
The people in power are
stubborn, and the people who are
not in power simply do not have
the ability to do so because
it's been taken from them.
Right. And so inevitably,
everything is going to be left
to kids that didn't ask for
this to happen to them.
They didn't want this
to happen to them.
And unfortunately, there's
nothing that they're going to be
able to do. And this book is
very heavily based in the fact
that I'm sorry that
this was left to you.
It is not fair that you
have to be the one to do it.
But unfortunately,
that is what happened.
And I'm here to hold your hand
as I introduce this idea to you.
Um, I did have to pull some
because in YA it's so unrealistic.
Everyone's just kind of
like, oh, like, why is a
kid the one to do this?
And I'm like, have you ever
heard of suspension of disbelief
and also a metaphor?
[Laughter]
Like so much of this
is like, yeah, like maybe it's
not realistic. Maybe I had to,
like, pull 1 or 2 strings to
make it so that the kid is the
one that has to deal with this.
But unfortunately, that
is kind of what happens.
And it sucks. And I'm sorry.
And this book is so much about
the main character being like,
he spends the entire book
being like, oh, you know,
I'm so adult, I'm going to be
the one to fix this problem.
And then it comes down to him
and he's like, oh, I am actually
just a child. And this
should not have been me.
And I am scared and I want my parents.
And yeah, I feel like it's
an apology that this is what
they have to do.
>> K.A. Cobell: Yeah. I guess going off
of that, the characters in my book,
they don't want to be the
ones that are taking action.
There's a lot of frustration
in looking for smoke.
Um, frustration that these
cases are not being solved.
Um, especially with Lauren.
She is the one who's sister
has been missing for months.
And her and her family,
they are wondering why.
Why don't we know anything yet?
Why haven't you found her?
Why don't you have any
information? And so they just
have this frustration building up.
And they're scared that if they
don't do anything, then nothing
is going to happen. If they
don't take the action, then
their sister, their daughter
will never be found.
Especially as the story goes
on and another body is found.
They're left to deal with it.
They feel this desperation and
that if law enforcement isn't
finding out what's happening,
they aren't finding the culprit here.
Then I guess we're going to have to.
And they don't want to.
It's just the responsibility.
They feel that justice will not be
served if we don't shoulder this.
>> Austin Ferraro:
Yeah. And that actually
leads right up to the next
question I wanted to ask.
Both of you have law
enforcement that is perhaps
not the best at their job.
>> Just a little bit.
>> A little bit.
And since all of your characters are in
a position where typically they,
you know, in an ideal society
would be relying on an authority and
outside authorities
like law enforcement
to deal with the issues at hand,
why did you include situations
where that just wasn't an option?
And not only that, but it
was in some cases an active
deterrent to them solving the
problem or getting their solutions.
>> K.A. Cobell: Let me set the
scene for my answer for a minute.
So the MMIW epidemic is a really
complex issue, and there are
a lot of possible reasons into
why is this happening.
And one of the reasons is a
lack of resources and funding.
And that goes into law enforcement
and as sovereign nations,
tribes have a right to govern
themselves, and they have
a right to have their own police force.
So on the Blackfeet Reservation,
there are tribal
police officers, but there are
also federal police officers
there. So there are FBI agents
There are BIA agents.
And so another reason that goes
into the MMIW epidemic is that
there are these conflicting
jurisdictions that are all
taking different cases there.
And so I tried to show all of
that in "Looking for Smoke"
and have the characters doubting
and questioning all these
law enforcement officers who
are supposed to be solving these
cases and finding these girls.
And what goes into it for these
characters is they're wondering,
are these Blackfeet police
officers trying their best?
And they're just stretched too thin.
They just don't have
the resources they need.
Or are they delaying the
investigation on purpose?
Are they hiding something
so they have all these doubts
coming out and with the
federal agents, they're thinking,
these guys aren't one of us.
They didn't grow up here.
They don't know us.
They don't know the people.
Are they trying their hardest,
or do they care more about
closing cases than
actually solving them?
So all this is going in,
all this is affecting these
characters there.
It's just increasing their
doubt and their frustration.
So it's not necessarily, oh,
these cops are bad at their job.
It's, are they bad at their job?
Are they hiding something or
do they just don't have the
capacity to help us?
>> Andrew Joseph White: Yeah.
As you were talking, I was like,
trying mentally, like cataloging
everything that's going on here.
And I think there's like three
main reasons for it in the book.
One, if the main characters
could go to the cops, the book
would be done here.
[Laughter]
>> That's true.
>> Yeah, exactly.
If they could go to the cops,
it wouldn't be a plot.
Two, I wanted to cut the main
character off from the highest
level of authority that would
be able to help them in this
situation and in that area,
that would be the cops.
However, the Word of God
is the game warden.
Unfortunately, there is no game
warden in this, so that would
have been really funny. But the
highest authority that actually
has any power in the lives of
people in this area are going to
be the cops, because state
government is really far away.
Federal government is even
further. Local government is
just some old guys in a building
down the street that
what are they doing, right?
Like passing tax law that
nobody can understand.
Yeah. Who cares?
So cops are going to be the
most powerful people in the area.
And two, like West Virginia
is in Appalachia in general,
is very hesitant of like
authority, especially like
federal or state authority that
running joke about NASCAR being
invented because moonshiners
were trying to outdrive the cops.
I'm like, pretty sure
that's legit, but don't take my
word for it. So there is like
this distrust of authority in
people who have power over you,
specifically law enforcement.
Law enforcement has the
very unique position of being
the only group of people who
are allowed to enact violence
against you. So obviously the
main character has some issues
with that, especially because
the people that hurt him are
being protected by the sheriff.
They have nowhere to go to.
The sheriff is like, hey, you know,
if you talk about who did this,
there's going to be consequences.
So he is cornered
by the people that have the
most power in this area, which
means that he is going to
have to do everything himself,
especially because the people
around him are understandably
terrified of that violence that
is allowed in certain
circumstances. And there is a
point at the end of the book
where the main character is
like, I don't understand, like
why we are deemed violent for
trying to defend ourselves, like
we are trying to equalize power
in this community and we are
being reacted with violence.
And when we are violent back,
we are defending ourselves.
So like the main character can
conceptualize violence and
self-defense and he
realizes is taking power.
If you're trying to take power
from someone that has too much
power and they react with
violence, do they see that as
self-defense? Like, is their
power part of their personhood?
Is that something that we can
help people uncouple, or is this
something we're always
going to have to deal with?
Right. Those people with power
never take kindly to that power
being taken away, even
if they have too much.
And it's like, do they see them
defending their power as
defending their life?
And so putting law enforcement
in that capacity, because
they're the ones with the gun.
How do we deal with that?
Especially as kids.
Because the main character is 16
and he does not know what's going on.
He's having a really hard time.
So there were a lot of reasons
why I think that, like,
law enforcement was going to be
the biggest block to this book.
And it's just because
it's West Virginia.
That's just what happens.
>> K.A. Cobell: Yeah. And when you
were saying at the beginning,
it reminded me of something
in my book as well.
We both have small towns.
It's rural.
So another thing that comes
into play with these characters
is these tribal officers there.
They know everybody.
You know, in a small town,
you wonder if this officer has to
arrest someone who is their cousin
or their best buddy from
high school or their basketball
coach, or, you know, like,
are they treating them as they
would treat everyone else?
Or are people getting favors?
Are they letting things slide?
So that's another thing that they're
dealing with some of the officers.
>> Austin Ferraro:
Yeah. And I think that,
one of the things that really play
into making that power dynamic
very, very messy is in both of
your books, the characters are
from poorer areas, and they have
a lot less financial capital
to be working with.
And there's also a lot of
community struggles with drugs.
And that just puts the law
enforcement kind of also in
at odds on a different axis as well.
Could you talk a little bit
about why those factors kind of
entered your book and how you think
they really affected
that power dynamic?
>> Andrew Joseph White: I think one
of the things that I wanted to do
with this book in particular is
just like represent an area as it is.
And so one of the main
characters, Cooper, his dad, is
unfortunately reliant on opioids
to function after being
in a massive car accident that
completely obliterated him.
The main character's father
was also in that position, but his
wife works in some sort of
medical field and was able to
help wean him off, even though
it he took a long time
and he took it very badly.
Unfortunately, Cooper's father
has not had that same access and
I wanted to make sure that
the book represented that
character as kindly and
empathetically as possible,
because the main character is
like, look, I know it's not his
fault. There are no resources
to help him with this situation.
He is doing the best that he
can to take care of his job and
his son, even if it's not
what his son always needs.
And just sort of like
looking at this man with like
understanding and respect. He
has never once looked down on
for being dependent, like he is
taking care of by the people in
his life. And it's just
unfortunately, a situation that
he finds himself in.
Um, especially because West
Virginia has like some of the
highest, like opioid prescriptions,
like in like the like the country.
I think it's like four
opioid prescriptions
per person in certain areas.
Um, if you just like, do the math.
And that's just how
it is, unfortunately.
And some people have like such
nasty reactions to people who
are dependent on opioids, like,
you hear some law enforcement
being like, oh, don't give them
Narcan. They're not worth it.
Like they don't deserve it.
And I'm just like,
that's a human being.
Can you stop being like that?
What is wrong with you?
Um, so I wanted to, like, take
sometime in the book to kind of,
like, carve out.
This is really difficult.
This is a situation that really sucks.
Um, but it is the situation.
And those people obviously
deserve kindness.
Like, they're just going
through something that's hard
so I wanted to carve out a space
in the book to kind of talk
about that, even if it's not
like the main focus of it.
>> K.A. Cobell: Yeah. Similarly, I was
trying to write a setting that was
really authentic, and unfortunately,
there is a big drug problem on
the reservation. And I mean,
frankly, everywhere.
But the Blackfeet Nation
actually declared a state of
emergency a few years ago
because there were so many
overdoses. I think in a week
span, there were four fentanyl
deaths and 12 overdoses.
And it's a small town.
And so just in one week.
So I wanted to show that it's a
real problem and it's really
affecting these kids
that I'm writing about.
So I brought in addiction
and how it's affecting their
families in different ways and
how the kids are dealing with it,
showing different, a
different range of emotion and
kids in different states of
dealing with it and showing that
some understand, like it's
not their parent's fault, like
they're not trying to do this,
but others are in a state of
like they hate the parent.
Like, you know, there's a whole
range. And I tried to show
all of that. And it also does play
into the law enforcement issues
because, um, sometimes the law
enforcement officers will assume
that when someone goes missing
that it must be drug related.
And in a lot of cases
it is, but not always.
And so the characters in
"Looking for Smoke" are dealing
with this, um, trying to
convince the officers, no,
my child was not addicted to drugs.
This is not because of drugs.
And they don't always believe him.
>> Austin Ferraro: And that
sort of sense of community
not necessarily focused on
those issues, but kind of united
by those issues is really
important because your
characters really rely on the
community that they are in to,
to drive them while they are
confronting the various issues
in their book. And in both
cases, you're really dealing
with a very, I don't want to
call it an insular community or
like a closed community, but a
very, a community that doesn't
necessarily take kindly to outsiders.
Um, why? Explain.
>> K.A. Cobell: Well, when you grow
up with a small group of people,
you know them so well.
You know the good things about them.
You know the bad things about them.
So when someone new comes in,
it's like this mystery
that you're not used to.
And I tried to show that
with my character, Mara.
She is Blackfeet but
she's just moved into town.
She didn't grow up on the
reservation, and she's
struggling to fit in.
And, um, the characters,
they don't welcome her.
But she also, I think a lot of
what it comes down to, um,
is that she's doubting herself,
and they see that and they
kind of twist it into, she doesn't
want to be here, or she thinks
she's better than us, but she's
nervous herself and doubting
do I fit in here?
Do I belong here?
Am I one of you?
But I played with how it can
come across differently to the
people on the outside.
And they just are thinking
that she's stuck up and it causes
a lot of problems there.
But I wanted to create a journey
with her where she
finds it in herself that she's
enough, but she also finds it
through the community
that she's enough.
And I think that's a question
a lot of us have that we can
relate to, where we ask
ourselves, am I enough?
Do I belong here?
Do I fit in here?
I know, I feel that especially
as I was writing this book,
I had those questions
like, am I talented enough?
Am I Blackfeet enough?
Am I the right person
to tell this story?
And like Mara does in the book,
I turned to my community,
I turned to my dad, and I laid
all these doubts out for him,
and he said something to me
that I will always remember.
He said, You're Blackfeet, my girl.
Nobody can take that from you.
And that was so powerful to me.
And so I wrote that into this
book because it resonated
so much with me. I wrote that
into a scene with Mara because
I think everyone deserves
to hear that you are enough.
You do belong, and nobody
can take that from you.
>> Andrew Joseph White:
This is just.
[Laughter]
[Applause]
There is a lot that I wanted to
do with community in here, and
a lot of it has to do with what I
said previously about the idea
of the lone wolf being a myth.
America loves the idea of a
lone wolf, but it's it doesn't
work like that. When people try
to go lone wolf in this book,
they die, right?
That's not how it works.
And there was a lot that I want
to do in community with this
book. And there are--
There was a there's a positive
side to like a really tight knit
community and kind of like a
negative side to a really tight
knit community. The negative
side of it is that there is
so much fear surrounding the main
character's family, because the
main character's family is the
focus of the hatred of the
powerful people in this county.
So people know that if they
spend too much time around the
Abernathys, if they get too
involved, that bad things might
happen to them.
It happens several times
over the course of the book.
People die because they get too
close to the main character's
family. They get in between
them and the sheriff, and
they are properly disposed of,
simply because they are in the way.
Right. And the main character
has to deal with the fact that
it can be difficult to become
friends with people.
To be close to people when
simply interacting with them is
putting them in danger.
So how do you find community in
that situation where people are
scared to get close to you?
There are some instances in the
book where people are like,
I can't do this. I'm backing away.
Like I'm getting out of the
situation like, I'm sorry
this is happening to you,
but I don't want to die.
The other thing is that
there are a lot of people
in this book that all have very
different political aims,
very different
political belief systems.
West Virginia is a
hard, deep red state.
There are lots of people who
are very conservative, but
the main characters are socialist.
There are lots of people around
him that are more left wing.
And essentially what happens in
the book is both sides of them,
like on either side of this community,
we're trying to make things
better for our families and our
people. We're just going
about it different ways.
So throughout the book, you see
people who are on the more
conservative end of the
spectrum, sort of like butting
heads with people on the further left.
But at the end of the book,
they're still coming together
and being like, okay, what
happened to that sheriff?
I'm glad he's gone. Yeah,
don't worry about it.
No, we are state police. We're not
going to tell you where he is.
That sort of thing.
Where it's coming together and
like, we're going to protect our
community, even if the ways
that we're doing it are kind of
different. We're still trying
to make sure that our family has
food on the table, that we have
a roof over their heads, and
we're going to come together
and figure this out.
Obviously, they don't all agree
on how, but when the matter is
survival, you can't be picky.
>> Austin Ferraro: And
that kind of also really--
you see that in how your books
kind of wrap up with closure.
There were times when I was
reading these books that I was
like, am I going to get an ending?
That doesn't make me want to
throw this book when I'm done?
And we got there.
I wasn't sure the entire time.
And part of why I wasn't sure
is because you're both writing
about communities that in
real life often don't get closure.
And obviously we want
closure in a book.
We want to close the book
and be like, yes, that was good.
I know what happened.
I feel confident that these
characters are probably going to
do okay. So aside from that,
though, why was it important
for you to give that to your
characters, especially in the
context of them being from
communities that don't
necessarily get that?
>> Andrew Joseph White: I know that a
big thing for me is that whether or not
my characters get a nice, neat
ending depends entirely on the
audience that I'm writing for.
If I'm writing for adults, I
don't care what you think about
the ending. Like genuinely,
it could be an open ending.
Everything is bad.
Everything is just like, oh
God, are the characters okay?
Yes. It's fine. You know, it's art.
I'm having fun. But like when
I am specifically writing YA,
like, I talked about this in a
video that I made, but I know
that I'm writing for a very
vulnerable population.
This in particular, like I'm
writing for a poor trans, queer
autistic teenager.
And very often those
kids have no role models.
Like very often I talk to kids
where they're like, you were the
first person I've met that
is like me and is an adult.
And I'm like, that's really upsetting.
And that's why I write these
books, because they don't,
they don't get to see that very
often, especially not as adults.
They don't get to see
themselves be grown up.
It's not something they have access to.
So when I'm writing a book like
this, I'm very, very aware that
these kids have like, nothing, right?
And so it is my job at the end
of the book to be like, yes,
absolutely. These characters are
going to grow up and so are you, right?
Because it feels so isolating
because like, even before I knew
like I didn't figure any of
this out until college, so I was
just white knuckling
it through high school.
My grades were perfect.
I had a 99 in every course, but.
Oh, I had no friends.
[Laughter]
One, you and I married
you, so you don't count.
[Laughter]
My wife's in the first row.
And it was just even before I knew
what was going on with me, I still felt
super isolated because, like
all of the neurotypical women
role models just weren't
clicking for me and I didn't
know why. So even if I'm
getting to those kids, like
before they figure out what's
going on, hopefully they read
this and like get an
inkling of something, right.
So it's because I care about my kids.
[Laughter]
>> K.A. Cobell: Yeah. Again, I feel
like we have so many similar
takes on this.
So in writing, looking for smoke,
I had a couple different goals.
My biggest goal is that I
hope my readers come away
feeling something, that they
will sit with these characters
and feel that pain they're in,
they feel the betrayal,
they feel like this desperation.
And then in turn they feel
that for the MMIW epidemic.
So I really wanted to shine
a light on the issue and help
raise awareness and help people
to get a better understanding of
the issue and come
away wanting to help.
But also, I wrote this book for
native kids, and I want them to
see themselves in this book, to
see themselves in the characters
and see them fighting, and then
come away with hope, like the
characters do, to feel that,
yeah, we don't always have
closure and these cases aren't
always solved, but we find like
a solidarity with community
and we can find closure
in community. And it was important
for me, for the native kids to
see that and to see these
characters succeeding in their
own ways despite everything,
and to just feel that hope after.
>> Austin Ferraro: Which is, you know,
you're not necessarily writing in
genres that are hopeful.
That is not necessarily
the end goal here.
What made you choose like the genre?
Because it's not, you know,
you're saying like, amazing
things about what you want,
your readers to get out of it.
And that's part of why I'm a librarian.
I want to have that same
relationship with my kids and,
you know, help them get there
where they need to be.
But I would not necessarily
have gone on.
Yes, I will pick up a thriller.
That is what I will get.
>> K.A. Cobell: Well, I think I didn't
have the idea and then say it'll be a
thriller. It was-- I write
thrillers and I have this idea.
I love reading thrillers,
and so I love writing them.
I think, um, it's hard for me
to focus on books sometimes.
I have a lot going on.
I have two young kids.
I am easily distractible.
So I need a book that grabs
you and thrillers really do that
for me. So that's just sort of my vibe.
So I had to find a way to
write this book as a thriller
while keeping it respectful and
sensitive to a real issue,
which is kind of nerve wracking to do.
It's a lot of pressure, and I
was worried I wouldn't be able
to do it justice, but I think I
was able to find this fine line
to walk on through the
characters and to bring in as
much authentic emotion as I could.
Because while the case is
in this book are fictional,
the emotions behind them are real.
Like real communities are feeling this.
And yeah, I think if you bring
in that emotion and have readers
be able to sit in those
feelings with the characters,
then you can work it in any genre.
>> Andrew Joseph White: Yeah,
I'm a horror novelist by trade,
so this is actually a step down
in the bleakness and violence.
>> Austin Ferraro: Yeah,
there was really only one scene
that I was like, yes,
this is this is in fact an
Andrew Joseph White book. Yeah.
[Laughter]
>> Andrew Joseph White: Yeah. My
first two books are way grosser,
but like, I, you know, my books have a
tendency to be, like, very aggressive.
And I don't think you can get away
with gutting a human being.
It's just a normal
contemporary. Right?
You really can't do that.
Once you start treating
humans, once you start field
dressing people, you kind of
change genres just by necessity.
And it's kind of one of like
horror and thrillers and
that sort of thing are always
my go to for writing these kinds
of books, because the whole
point of my books is like life,
this situation sucks.
It is so bad.
Um, however, you are going to
make it out the other side alive.
You may not be okay.
You may not be in one piece,
you might be missing some bits,
or you're going to be traumatized
for the rest of your life,
but you're going to make it
like you're going to survive,
right? Like you're going
to make it to adulthood.
So the more that I put the
characters through throughout
the course of the book makes
the closure at the end better
because they have fought so
unbelievably hard to get there.
Which is part of why my books
are so brutal where it's like,
I know this is what it feels like.
Like all of my work is super
exaggerated versions of feelings
that kids deal with IRL or
unfortunately, you know,
there are some things that
I've written about where, yeah,
there's definitely a kid who
that has gone through that and
that sucks. And that is a nightmare.
And I hope like you're not going to
come out the other side of that, okay.
But you will be alive and you
have the rest of your life to
get better and to heal and to
meet new people and to be loved.
You just got to make it.
That's kind of the whole point.
>> Austin Ferraro: So we're kind of
getting to the time where I will
release the audience on you.
>> Oh, yes.
>> Austin Ferraro: My last question
is these books are a lot.
They're very good.
If you haven't read them, read them.
Um, but they're a lot
there's a lot going on.
And if there is one thing that
you want, every person who is
going to pick up these books to know
going in, what would that thing be?
>> Andrew Joseph White:
The dog survives.
The dog on the cover survives.
[Laughter]
I wouldn't do that to you.
I'm not a monster because I know
we all read those books in,
like, middle school with the dog
on the cover and the dog dies.
[Laughter]
This isn't old yeller.
What's the other one?
Yeah. Where the Red fern
grows? This isn't that.
The dog is okay.
[Laughter]
[Applause]
I can't promise anything
about the people,
but the dog is fine.
>> K.A. Cobell: Well, that's
a very important disclaimer.
>> Andrew Joseph White: I have
people asking me on TikTok.
Is the dog okay? I'm like, I'm--
Yes. I'm not a monster.
Like, I'm terrible, but
I'm not that bad.
>> K.A. Cobell:
People. It's fine.
Dogs don't go there.
I don't have an important
disclaimer like that.
That's a good question.
I guess I would just tell people
to go in trying to feel it,
trying to relate to the characters
and meet them where
they're at and just, I guess,
have an open heart about it,
because that's my goal,
to have people feel it.
And it sounds like you did.
[Laughter]
So check right there.
>> Austin Ferraro: All right. So
our audience, I'm sure you have
many, many questions.
Microphone. Microphone.
If you have a question,
please come down.
Please do keep it to
questions, not comments.
And I think we will go--
We will hop between microphones
if we can get lines on both sides.
>> Andrew Joseph White:
While we're lining up,
I have a running joke with when
I do school events where
kids are always really excited,
but I'm always just kind of like,
look, I just want to make it
clear I am not your parent,
teacher, guidance
counselor, or therapist.
I am some guy who
wrote a book you like.
I can talk about
my own experience.
I cannot help you with yours.
[Laughter]
>> K.A. Cobell:
Well, he said for me too.
[Laughter]
>> Andrew Joseph White: I write it on
my palm every time I do a school thing.
Exactly. I'm just an opossum.
Like it's fine.
>> Austin Ferraro: All right,
let's start over here.
>> Hi. So both of your books have
characters who are unwillingly
implicated in the violence of
the plot, and I was wondering if
you could get a little bit more
into why that was so important
to include.
>> Andrew Joseph White:
There is--
If you've ever seen the UK
edition of my book, there is a
quote on the front where it's
sort of along the lines of
monsters don't get pity,
they don't deserve it.
Right? And so in this situation
of "Compound Fracture", the main
character being implicated in
the violence, being implicated
in the cyclical violence means
that he no longer has the
ability to just step back and be
like, nope, I'm not a part of it.
I'm just going to leave the
fact that he inadvertently or
maybe accidentally, does
something that causes harm to
another person means that
he can't get out of it anymore,
like he did it.
He's the one that started it.
Now, essentially, the antagonist
can look at it and be like,
oh, so when all of this happens,
it was your fault and
there's no way for
him to get out of it there.
One, it's a really good plot hook.
And two, the main character
hates it, so it's awesome.
>> K.A. Cobell: Yeah, that's a
really good way of describing it.
You're there in it.
Like they can't just say,
well, it's not my problem.
And for me, I just really wanted
to write a book where
there are multiple points of
view and these characters are
all doubting each other and
they all have secrets.
I think that really ups the
tension when you know they're
keeping secrets from each other.
And I love books that do that.
So I wanted to write
one that does that.
And I had a lot of fun,
figuring out how to put myself
in these character's shoes and,
write their secrets and
write their lies. But from a
place where I understand why
they're lying, like I see their truth.
And it's different. Everyone's
truths are different, and that's
a lot of fun to write from.
So that's what I wanted to do.
>> Austin Ferraro:
All right, let's hop over here.
>> Hi. Sorry. I'm nervous.
So, uh, I've read both
of your books, Andrew,
and they're amazing. But,
the second one I thought was
really cool. And this one is
very interesting to me because
of how much like, history
is, like, inspired by it.
And, like, I had no idea what
like the Virginia Coal Wars
thing was until I heard about it.
And I was like, oh, what's this?
Um, but could you talk about,
like our, um, like, what gave you,
like, the idea to, like, do that
specifically, like, history wise?
>> Andrew Joseph White:
Yeah, the history ones.
Um, so one, it's honestly
really funny because one,
I'm really bad at research.
And so for The Spirit Bears
It's Teeth specifically,
my running joke was that like,
oh, the only thing I know
about the Victorian era is my
wife talking about Bridgerton
at me. And then and then my
wife was like, That's Regency.
[Laughter]
I went, shows what I know.
But I, I pull from history
very specifically because I feel
like it is an understandable
starting point or exaggeration
of issues that currently exist.
So the Victorian era was very,
very good for working with
misogyny where it is we can
expand upon it in this era, but
it still exists in some
of those forms today.
So we can just use a form that
you are more comfortable with
to talk about these, and I'm
going to let you apply it to the
modern day. Like this,
"Compound Fracture" was a little
different because I
specifically wanted to talk
about the West Virginia coal
wars. So if anyone has a copy of
"Compound Fracture", if you open
it up, there are photos from the
actual West Virginia coal
wars on the endpapers.
Like very few people actually know
about the West Virginia coal wars.
It was one of the first times
that bombs were used, like
the Battle of Blair Mountain
was one of the first times that
bombs were used on American
citizens, and it was by the
government. They used
repurposed World War I munitions
and dropped them on the strikers.
And then some of the, around
that time I think it was also
Tulsa and then eventually World War II.
So I really, really wanted to
talk about something that not a
lot of people know about is in
West Virginia.
So, you know, that's like my family.
And also because it was a very like it
was a very socialist led like conflict.
And people think about West
Virginia as being like super
backwards and right wing.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no,
no. Look at our history.
>> K.A. Cobell:
I didn't know about them.
I'm excited to read it and
then go down the rabbit hole.
>> Andrew Joseph White: Oh the
Wikipedia is so interesting.
Oh my gosh, it's so good.
>> Hi. So I feel like,
marginalized communities often
connect with ideas of
monstrosity and, like,
horror and stuff like that.
I was wondering if for either
of you all, there are like,
seminal works that you saw,
that one that made you want to
work in these genres, like
movies or things that you read
that inspired you to create
this kind of work?
>> K.A. Cobell: I was mainly
inspired by One of Us is Lying.
I'm sure a lot of you
have read that book.
Just having the four characters
all keeping their secrets.
It sucked me in so much and
that's when I was like,
I need to do this. I need to write for.
And while I was writing for, I was
like, I'm never doing this again.
[Laughter]
This is hard. But it was fun.
So then I have done it again.
[Laughter]
>> Andrew Joseph White: I love that.
When you said that this was
four, I was like, oh my God.
Like, because I know that's difficult.
I have trouble nailing one voice.
So trying to get four.
I have so much respect.
Oh my gosh, I know it's difficult.
Horror for me.
So I've always-- so hilariously
I'm a huge wimp, actually.
I have such a hard time
with horror movies.
I'm really, really bad at them.
I like watch them through my fingers.
I really want to watch alien
won't be able to sit through it.
I know it's just not happening.
But video games were huge
for me when I was a teenager.
And I think the thing
that really got me into horror
specifically was Dead Space.
Um, my parents wouldn't let me
get a copy of Dead Space for the Xbox,
so I watched a playthrough
on my little iPod touch
after school when I was 12.
And let me tell you, it crossed
some wires at a formative age.
So everything that I do is based
on that sense of dread and
monstrosity, and a lot of it
has to do with the whole,
you know, like being marginalized
thing where, you know,
my running joke is that, like,
not knowing that I was trans
disconnected me from myself and
not knowing that I was autistic,
disconnected me from other people.
And you don't have anything after that.
And monsters were the first place
that I really saw that reflected.
But when you're like a little
kid, monsters are like wolves.
So I was like, really into
wolves when I was a kid,
and then dragons.
And then I learned about, Xenomorphs
and Necromorphs and went,
oh, so that's my
personality.
>> K.A. Cobell: The iTouch is
bringing back a lot of memories.
>> Andrew Joseph White:
Yeah, yeah, the little little guy.
And it still had the button.
It still actually had a headphone jack.
>> Good times.
>> Still mad about that.
>> I will be honest, I have
not read either of your books.
I work in healthcare, so it
doesn't go well, I suppose,
unless you're up until 4 a.m..
Over the last few weeks, I
have researched both of you.
Yes, I have been waiting for this day.
So I know both of you.
When you write your books,
you base it off of other people
as well to help form the characters.
But have you ever thought about
doing something more non-fiction
of, like, this day?
If that makes sense.
>> Andrew Joseph White: I've thought
about doing non-fiction once or twice,
but my problem is I like to
embellish and lie too much.
[Laughter]
Because one of the things I
joke about is that being a
fiction writer is being paid to
get really, really good at lying
and convincing you that
something happened when it didn't.
And I know that if I was
presented with a story,
my whole thing would be like,
but what if this happened?
And I would want to write that
instead because I'm nosy and
have trouble focusing.
So I would try to write this
other thing, and suddenly that's
fiction now, because that's
what happens when you lie in
nonfiction. It becomes fiction.
So usually when I'm taking
inspiration from like IRL,
I will just like steal
all of the cool stuff like
a grubby little goblin.
And then being, especially
because, like writing a book,
you really have to suspend disbelief.
It's so hard to write a really
good nonfiction novel.
So what I'll do is I'll just take
the stuff that doesn't work
for a narrative, just
kind of throw it away.
I was like, I don't need that.
So yeah, I have a tendency
to just embellish too much, but
there is so much good stuff
that you can use respectfully in
fiction from real life, which
is I feel like we kind of--
Both of us did that.
Um, so I like to steal.
I'm a little thief.
>> K.A. Cobell: Yeah. I think there's
a lot of pressure I would feel if I
tried to write nonfiction.
Because you want to get it
exactly right, and I don't--
I don't see myself doing that yet.
But like you said, I did put in
a lot of real things into this book.
Like, I even tried to honor
my family members by,
like, using their names in
here, their Indian names and
"Looking for Smoke" is actually
the name of my fifth great
grandfather. So I still tried
to bring in some real people in
certain ways, and I think
that's as far as I will go.
>> Andrew Joseph White: Yeah. Imagine
if you're writing about someone
who's still alive and you
get something wrong, I die.
[Laughter]
>> K.A. Cobell: Too much.
>> I have a process question about
writing from four different voices.
Did you, like, write
the story and then pick this
moment I want to tell
from this perspective?
Or did you write each character's
whole story and pick out
the parts that worked the best?
>> K.A. Cobell:
That's a great question.
Well, something about me
is I have to write in order.
Some people, like, jump around,
they write a scene
they're excited about
or I can't do that.
I have to start at the beginning
and I have to write it.
So I would just feel where
the story was and then just
choose who it would be from next.
And there were a couple times
where I would start from someone
and I would be like,
this doesn't feel right.
I would get a little bit of
writer's block, and it was
because I was in the wrong person
or the right people weren't there.
So it was just you had to
feel it out as you write and see
where you're at in the story,
and who will have the most
interesting perspective at that
moment, or if someone is clearly,
they're keeping a secret in this
moment, then you jump to the
person who maybe that
secret is hurting the worst.
It's just, yeah, I just play
around with it as I go.
And I'm also a pantser.
So that also I just feel it out
as I go on everything, basically.
>> Andrew Joseph White: I love that
it comes down to who would have
the worst time being in this
situation. I respect that so much.
[Laughter]
>> K.A. Cobell: Bring the pain.
>> Your books both seem to be
dealing with some very intense issues
that could very easily have
gone into what you might call
more of a general fiction.
What was it about the YA approach
that attracted you as opposed to,
I mean, these are very
serious issues that, you know,
you could write almost anything about.
What specifically drew you to YA
to address these issues?
>> Andrew Joseph White: I actually
get this question a lot because
with my YA, I get a lot of people
being like, why isn't this adult?
And my running joke is, oh,
when it's adult, you'll know,
don't worry.
But I specifically write these
books for 16 year old me
because when I was 16, I was
reading Hogg by Samuel Delany.
I was reading Exquisite
Corpse by Poppy Z. Brite.
Yeah, like Wasp factory,
Cows by Matthew Stokoe.
I found a list of the
100 most disturbing
novels in the English language, and
I was going through it one by one.
Right? And again, I was in high
school, and I loved how these
books made me feel.
I was disgusted, right?
I remember I found the short
story guts by Chuck Palahniuk in
high school, and I got halfway
through, had to stop,
picked it up a week later, read it all
the way through, gave it to my father.
[Laughter]
And I remember you walking into
my room just being like, why?
[Laughter]
And that was the last
time I was ever so
disgusted with something
I had to put it down.
And I'm still kind of chasing
that. I'm trying to find it.
Haven't found anything yet.
But I remembered reading those
things, and I loved the way that
they made me feel. I loved the
sensation of pushing boundaries
about, like dealing
with topics that were
kind of off limits
to society as a whole.
But I kind of wished that they
were also more relevant to me
as a teenager or had something
to say to me at that age.
So I went, okay, so when I'm
writing for teenagers,
what I'm going to do is I'm going
to introduce that taboo,
that boundary pushing, that,
that horrible feeling in the pit of
your stomach. But I'm
specifically going to be
tackling things about
growing up and being a teen.
So that and also like tackling
them in a way that I'm trying to
actually say something, right,
instead of just going like,
what's the grossest
thing I can do here?
I'm like, what's the grossest
thing I can do here and have it
mean something, right?
So I very specifically like
wanted to go into it and being
like, I'm writing this for kids
while still bringing up that
just that sensation of,
should I be reading this?
Do I have to close
the book and walk away?
Like letting myself have that
feeling while still writing it
for kids, and hopefully they
can get something out of it?
>> K.A. Cobell: That is very much
a talent to make it mean something.
It is impressive.
>> Andrew Joseph White:
Thank you to my editor.
[Laughter]
>> K.A. Cobell: Yes, always.
I love young adult.
I think the themes of like
finding yourself, finding your
strengths, figuring out where
you fit in, what you want to do
with your life. I still relate
to those, and I think it's just
like, a hopeful time.
But also the issues,
they matter to teens as well.
And so I just wanted to write a
young adult book because it's
what I love, selfishly, I guess.
>> Austin Ferraro: All right. We have
time for one more super quick question.
>> Um, how would you say your
character's identity and their
respective intersections of
identity influence the way they
experience community
throughout the narrative?
>> Andrew Joseph White: Oh my gosh,
do you want to answer that?
What are we doing here?
>> K.A. Cobell: I can start, well,
I specifically think
of my character Mara first
because like I said earlier,
she joins this community being
the new girl, and she is doubting
herself, and that affects how
she's interacting with her
community. If she doesn't feel
she fits there, then she doesn't
try so hard to fit there.
But I really wanted to show
that it was more of a coming
from herself.
It was like an internal barrier.
And when you get through that
and you see that you can be
uplifted by your community,
you find the belonging there and
your identity just solidifies
even more when you feel it in
yourself and you feel the people
around you supporting you
in that, and you feel held by them.
>> Andrew Joseph White: Yeah. One of
the things that I wanted to talk about
in "Compound Fracture" is, you know,
the area is a very insulated, like
community. But it's not that
Miles is an outsider because
he came from the outside. He
is somehow managing to be an
outsider, even though he
grew up there his whole life.
And a lot of that has to do
with the fact that, you know,
there's not a lot of queer
people in this area, and
there is a very, very limited sense
of what autistic people are like
or what's going on there,
because the main character
doesn't even know until like
three fourths of the way through
the book. So everyone, he grew
up with these people, but he is
still just the weird one to
everyone else, on top of the
fact that he's an Abernathy so
he can't interact with anyone
anyway. So I really wanted to
sort of tackle like being like
marginalized in a community
that you were raised in, because
I feel like there's very
interesting conversations in the
difference between, like being
marginalized due to something
that was recognizable at birth
and being marginalized because
of something that was
discovered later.
I feel like there are very
interesting conversations to be
had about, like the
similarities and differences
between those two things.
So going into this, like, I
wanted to see what this insular
community would be like, having
to deal with someone who
suddenly became very different,
even though they've known this
person the whole time.
I do think the community
kind of came first, though,
because I already had it like
they were based on the people
that were already in my life,
in the areas that I already knew.
So I'm just kind of like, I have this.
What kind of person can I
create to, like, get this point
across in the best way.
[Applause]
[Music]