>> Carla Hayden: Good morning.
It's been such 
a great morning already.
I'm librarian of Congress, 
Carla Hayden,
and it is one of my great
 privileges to confer
the Library of Congress’ 
Prize for American Fiction
each year during
 the National Book Festival.
The Prize for American
 Fiction recognizes
and celebrates writers, 
their body of work,
and the power of their words.
And the author 
we are honoring today
has built quite an 
outstanding collection of books
that have pierced through the
 American psyche and culture.
James McBride.
[applause]
He’s a bestselling 
and award-winning author
of books we all know and adore.
From his debut novel Miracle
 at Santa Anna
and his current bestseller,
the Heaven 
and Earth Grocery Store.
His beautiful words
 and his sharp wit
have captivated readers 
with his exceptional stories
and rather unforgettable 
characters like Sportcoat
from Deacon King Kong
 and John Brown
from The Good Lord Bird,
where he expertly 
blended fiction and history.
I, like many of you, 
were first introduced to him
with his book, 
The Color of Water.
[applause]
And it has become one 
of my all-time favorites.
It beautifully shows the power 
of family and a mother's love,
something we can all relate to.
In fact, that's the reason
 my 92-year-old mother
is here today to 
see James McBride.
[applause]
And maybe that's
 his superpower.
Whether it's in his words
 or in his music,
he connects diverse people to
his thought provoking 
and poignant art,
taking us on an emotional 
joyride through his stories.
James also said when
 he was told about
this award that
 he wished his mother
was here today
 to see him ascend
to the top of
 the literary mountain.
So let's all give him
 a warm embrace
[applause]
as we honor him
 with the 2024
Library of Congress Prize
 for American Fiction,
the brilliant James McBride.
[applause]
Oh, somebody said I love it.
That's right. We love it.
So thank you, James, 
for accepting.
And now, we are 
having a special treat
because James is going
 to be in conversation
with NPR's, Michel Martin.
[applause]
>> Michel Martin: They got 
a lot of people here.
See, we don't normally
 see eyes when we work,
so it's a little different.
So I take it that 
Mr. McBride has a few fans.
Would that be -- could that be?
Okay, but let's do a little --
 any newbies here?
Anybody not familiar 
with the work?
Okay, well, that'll change.
Let me ask you though, audience.
Okay, what's your favorite?
The Color of Water. 
Anybody?
[applause]
Miracle at Saint Anna.
Okay, all right. I'm gonna skip.
The Good Lord Bird. 
Anybody?
Okay.
Kill ‘em and Leave. 
Kill’em and leave.
Okay, that's one
 of my favorites.
Five-Carat Karat Soul, 
anybody, okay.
Deacon King Kong.
[applause]
I'm just trying 
to understand
where we're all coming 
from here.
You got a few fans here.
How does it feel?
Like I say, most of the time,
we do our work 
by ourselves, right?
So what's it?
How is this landing 
with you, all this?
>> James McBride: Well, 
I wish I would
want some longer
 socks so people
can't see my ankles, 
you know?
But I mean, it's nice.
I mean, this kind of thing 
doesn't happen very often,
and it's nice to -- 
yeah, it's good.
I mean, I'm not 
really sure what
I'm supposed to say, 
you know?
>> Michel Martin: All right, 
well, let's keep going,
because we first, I think, first
 thought of you as a creator.
I mean, look, you went
 to journalism school,
you worked at
 the Washington Post.
Actually, we kind of
 overlapped there,
although we never 
saw each other
because I was in 
the metro section
and you were at style section, 
so you were in high cotton.
You know, I was just out
 here doing police blotter,
but I think creatively, 
I think you kind of
first thought of yourself as
 a saxophone player, correct?
Would that be a musician, right?
>> James McBride: A musician,
 yeah.
>> Michel Martin: So when 
did you say to yourself,
I'm a writer?
>> James McBride: Well, 
probably after I left the post.
You know, I left the post, 
it was 89, maybe, or 90.
I came to New York, and I left 
the post, I can't remember.
I think it was might be 88.
But anyway, I went to New York
and I became a full-time
 musician for several years.
And during that time, 
I wrote The Color of Water.
And I when I wrote 
The Color of Water,
I made so much money
 from writing the book.
I said, maybe I should stop
 playing these gigs
because traveling
 and going out
and going to Gary,
 Indiana, in a van
and coming back with
 five bucks
and everything I had was made in
 a truck stop, you know.
So I just realized that
 I had a talent for writing.
I mean I realized I had
 a talent for it before,
but I started taking
 it more seriously,
I guess, after I left the post,
 because creatively,
fiction started to show itself.
>> Michel Martin: I was 
going to ask about that
because the first mark 
you made was with memoir
which was with 
The Color of Water,
which to this day, 
I mean,
I think people still 
read it in school, right.
It's finding its audience
 over and over again.
People seem to find it
 when they need to find it.
But it's memoir.
So when did the fiction
 start to show itself?
>> James McBride: Well, 
I always liked fiction,
even when I was a student
 at Oberlin.
In fact, when I realized 
I had a talent for writing,
I had a teacher named
 Tom Taylor
he was like an
 adjunct or he was visiting.
I still remember his name,
and I wrote a story
 in this class.
I had to go on a class for like,
because I wasn't really
 up to speed.
So Oberlin, which is --
I'm very grateful 
to that school.
They had a class where
 you if you didn't up to speed,
they would get you to speed.
And I had to write 
a story in that class.
And I wrote a story.
And afterwards, he said
 you have a talent for this.
And I said because
 the story I wrote
was about a guy who
 went to the bathroom
and sat on the toilet
 and had a heart attack,
but he had a flashback,
 blah, blah, blah.
So anyway, I don't know
 what he saw in that,
but I'm hoping he didn't see 
everything that I was seeing.
But so I guess I just always 
started writing creatively,
but none of it was any good.
I was talking about
 this morning.
I went to see the National Zoo
 in Washington, D.C,
when I was a reporter
 at the Post.
In fact, I took my two
 nephews there,
and after we left, 
one of my nephews,
he was so upset
 by seeing the animals
that I wrote a story called 
Mr. Whippy and the wind,
which is part of the short
 story collection
in Five-Carat Soul, which I 
see like eight people read.
But I was --
>> Michel Martin: I read it. 
>> James McBride: Oh you did?
>> Michel Martin: Yeah. 
>> James McBride: God bless you.
>> Michel Martin: Loyal fan.
>> James McBride: So I've
 always been creative.
And music -- journalism 
wasn't creative enough for me.
And also, fiction allows
 your dreams to come true,
whereas journalism doesn't,
although, like, it's starting
 to a little bit now,
but that's a whole 
another thing.
I will say this as 
a mixed-race person,
well, first of all, if you can 
name me one African American
who's not mixed, I'll give
 you $100 right now.
But you know, for years,
when the Color of Water
 came out,
when I was growing up, 
we were way out.
We were considered way out.
You know, you and I, 
we grew up around the same time.
Mixed race family 
in those days
was just something
 that was very unusual.
But in the black community, 
it was easily accepted.
So I'm happy to see that --
a lot of ways, my success
 is predicated on the fact
that people are starting to see
the reality that
 I've always known,
which is that what 
difference does it make,
really in the grand 
scheme of things?
So that's probably
 why I'm here
and why I'm getting
 this $10,000.
>> Michel Martin: Wait, 
they paid you?
Wait, wait, what?
>> James McBride: No, 
look, I'm not here.
>> Michel Martin: Soundproof 
another room.
>> James McBride: I've
 made enough money.
I'm here because
 I want to be here.
And because
 I respect librarians
and the Library of Congress.
>> Michel Martin: And all 
your fans who want to see you
of whom there seem
 to be quite a few.
>> James McBride: This is
 a little bit --
This is upsetting because
 if these people think
I'm smart, something's wrong.
[laughter]
I'm not going to say anything.
>> Michel Martin: 
I want to talk about
the thing about your work.
And one of the people--
I know you don't
 read your reviews,
but one of the people
 who wrote a review
of one of your books
 talked about how
he was reading the 
book on the subway
and was laughing out loud,
and everybody kept
 looking at him like,
what's wrong with you?
And has anybody --
Have you all done that? 
Have you ever done that?
Is the voices in your books
 are all so different?
Does that -
You know, I mean, they
 all have their own voice.
Like, I was rereading
 Good Lord Bird
when I realized we
 were going to be talking.
I reread it, and I wanted
 to read it
as opposed to watching the film,
which was hilarious,
but still the voices are
 so distinct.
I'm like, how do these
 voices come to you?
>> James McBride: I mean, 
you know,
I just happened to be 
the person in the room
that holds the handkerchief 
when God coughs honestly.
I like people
 I listen to people.
And part of my job is 
to listen to people.
And I appreciate people so much,
and I happen to look to
 the kindness in people.
And when you look to
 the kindness of people,
you see their depth.
And so there's 
no bad people to me.
And if you appreciate people,
music helps you a lot because
 music forces you to listen.
And so when I teach 
writing to my students,
I often make 
them listen to music,
and I make them walk 
around and watch and see
because everywhere you go,
everywhere I go I 
always carry a notebook.
I carry it everywhere.
You know, I always
 carry a notebook
because people are just handing 
me money when they talk.
So I always have a notebook.
I always have pens.
>> Michel Martin: You got
 anything in there?
Let me see. 
I want to see.
>> James McBride: Yeah, 
well, I mean,
just ignore the grocery
 list and stuff.
I mean, like well,
>> Michel Martin: Just
 hand it over.
[laughter]
>> Michel Martin: Pay for
solution for tree
address to frame
 for rush pics.
Yeah, I co-sign that.
>> James McBride: Well I have.
>> Michel Martin: I could see it
Vitamins, I'm not going 
to ask about that.
set, okay.
>> Michel Martin:  All right.
>> James McBride: Wait a minute.
No, no I'll give you 
the good section here
because this book is 
a bit of an anomaly
because I just graduated
 to a bigger book.
So salsa is what comes
 out of Goya cans.
That's what I heard 
someone say.
And here's some types
 of music, Latin music.
Zeitlin, Montoya Mambo,
 Montuno Montoya.
The original tumbao, three 
string guitar with strings GCE.
See, I mean, this
 is useless to people,
but if I'm writing
 about Latin music
because I heard a
 just a gifted arranger.
There was a workshop I was at,
because I heard a
 just a gifted arranger.
There was a workshop I was at,
and this Latin cat -- 
when I say Latin,
I mean, with all due 
respect to Chicano,
I don't know what he was,
 but he was Puerto Rican.
And we say in New York.
He definitely 
was Puerto Rican.
But his language,
 his use of these terms
was just fascinating because
 he had he figured out
that all of this,
 the African parts
that came into so-called Latin, he had worked it out.
He was a big fat guy, bad dude.
I mean, he was obese, but --
So I just learned something.
So I wrote it
 in my little book.
But I just graduated
 to a bigger book
because I usually keep
 sayings in one section,
names in another section,
and incidents that 
 happen in another section.
And then there's 
a little section where
I go to the grocery
 store and get.
>> Michel Martin: Get frames
 for the rush picks.
But there was nobody 
you could consult to hear
how a 19th century abolitionist
 vigilante could talk
or an escaped 
or not escaped.
He wasn't really escaped.
You all remember the
 story of Good Lord Bird?
It's focuses on onion, 
and he gets that name
because it's a whole thing
 about how he gets that name.
And he encounters John Brown,
and John Brown liberates him, 
 and it's told through him.
And it's sort of based
 on the real John Brown.
But it's hilarious. 
I'm just trying to think.
How could you figure
 out that like this
John Brown, who was
 hanged for trying to
start an insurrection against
 slavery, could be hilarious.
I mean, I just -- that part.
>> James McBride: Well, I mean
 life is how you look at it.
I mean, if you can get over
 the fact that we've had
in the last three --
 in the last 2016 to 2020,
we had some awful 
things happen.
I'll put it this way
 in my church,
my pastor happens to
 be here, not my pastor.
I like when people
 say my pastor.
He's not your pastor, buddy.
Okay, cut it out.
But the people that 
I grew up knowing
and that you grew
 up knowing,
they always saw the
 bright side of stuff.
They knew they were
 powerless to do stuff.
You know, they knew 
the mayor didn't care
and that the city 
councilmen would just rascals,
most of them, 
in those days, anyway.
So they just learned to laugh
because learning 
to laugh is a way of survival.
And so, even with 
John Brown as ridiculous
and as crazy as he was,
because Calvinists 
are a little bit crazy,
but everyone has a point.
I mean, what's funnier
 than watching two Arab guys
argue over the course
 of a brake job?
I mean, in Punjab, whatever
 its language is speaking,
not Punjabi, but you get it.
So it's just how you see it.
And so I grew up in 
a family and in a community
where laughter was 
really the best medicine.
And so I just tried to
 put it into my books.
>> Michel Martin: 
What's interesting, too,
is a lot of people
 who write fiction,
they start with memoir 
and then they build out.
So you started with memoir,
but then your next projects were
 very different from your life.
>> James McBride: Well, 
you can't write the same --
I mean, you can't write 
the same book again and again.
I know some writers do that
 but I'm not interested in that.
I'm interested in growth.
I want to change. 
I want to evolve.
You know, I'm always trying 
to figure out what's the next.
You know, I'd love 
to write a book
where you open it up and
 the characters pop out
and they talk to each other,
 and then you're allowed
to insert yourself into it, 
and then you turn the page.
And I mean, 
I'm trying to get --
I just can't 
stop being creative.
I feel like I'm limited 
really by books and music
because there's no real --
neither side music industry
 and the publishing industry,
they really don't
 understand each other.
They don't know what to do
 with someone like me.
I'm not your typical writer
 who just writes
the same book about
 detectives or whatever,
and someone gets killed.
I'm always thirsty
 for something.
And music is the same way.
I'm always looking
 for something new
and something, 
a different sound,
and I've never found
 a comfortable place there.
Books is just -- that's just
 part of who I am.
I'm just a creative person, 
you know?
I'm just under the umbrella
 of creativity and storytelling,
which has evolved to in 
some ways that are good,
in some ways that 
are not good.
Ten Second stories 
in TikTok don't really --
that's not story, 
that's just film
and blogs and 
YouTube channels
that's not even typing, 
you know.
So I'm trying to figure 
out ways to engage people
so that when someone
 tells their story
that it has some purpose
 to help someone else.
>> Michel Martin: We're
 going to invite you
into the conversation.
Although with 
this many people here,
I'm not sure how many 
people we can get to the mic.
So I don't want to make 
it a fitness contest,
but we're going to start
 in about ten minutes.
We're going to invite you
 to sort of join us,
and we're going to talk 
for about ten minutes
with your questions, and then
 I'm going to come back
to Mr. McBride so he can give
 us a closing thought
or a benediction 
or whatever it is
you want to leave
 us with, my pastor.
And so okay, I'm going 
to glide a little bit
past Deacon King Kong, 
even though I love
Deacon King Kong 
so much, so much
because Mr. McBride mentioned
 that we kind of grew up
in a similar neighborhood
 in a similar time,
and Deacon King Kong is about
 everybody I grew up with.
Like, if you all have read it,
it's about every crazy person
 that I grew up with
that we grew up with.
But I'm going to glide past
 it because I want to get
to the latest book, because
 I think a lot of
most of the people here 
have probably read that.
That's the one they're
 most familiar with.
Love this too.
I felt like when I read it, and 
when I heard you talk about it,
that you'd actually 
been carrying this story
with you for some time, 
is that right?
>> James McBride: Yes. 
That's true.
And part of it, because
 when I worked
at a camp for disabled
 or so-called
differently abled kids,
 it changed my life.
And that camp was run
 by a man who was
in those years was gay
 and had to hide it.
And he was just -- 
he changed my life
and the life of all of the 
people who worked at the camp.
That camp was kind of 
like a United Nations.
It was outside Philly.
It was called Variety Club Camp
 for handicapped Children.
It was started
 by theater owners,
a Jewish theater owners 
for Jewish kids with polio.
Then they opened it up 
to anybody with polio,
and then they opened
 it up to anybody
who was so-called
 differently abled.
And a lot of those kids
 I'm still in touch with
like three of them now.
And so I always wanted
 to write about it
and write about him.
But every time I wrote about it,
 it just was like sappy
and it just was just
 it was corny.
But the only chapter
 that worked,
I wrote several chapters
but the only chapter that
 worked was the chapter about
the guy who kind of
 started the camp
or whose life inspired the
 camp was Moshe.
When I got to Moshe, 
and then Turner his wife,
wife to be or Hannah, if 
you want to get all technical,
when she got involved --
when they got involved
 and they fell in love,
then the story just -- 
the plane took off the runway.
>> Michel Martin: What
 made this the time
to bring that story 
forward since,
like I say, you had been 
carrying pieces of it with you?
Why do you think it presented
 itself when it did?
>> James McBride: 
There's no time.
It's just that's 
the thing with fiction.
You know, fiction, 
you just go around
gathering information and then 
it comes when it's supposed to.
So that was just God 
coming into the room.
I mean, I was going 
to see Pennhurst.
I said it initially 
in Pottsville, PA,
which is in western 
PA near Pittsburgh.
But then I was going 
to see Pennhurst,
which is the old institution
where they housed
 disabled children.
And again, remember, 
I was looking into --
I wanted to write about
 a child or children
who were disabled 
or differently abled
and what happens to them.
So I was going to see Pennhurst,
 which was closed,
but I went to see it anyway,
and I saw a sign that 
said Pottstown.
So I said, well 
Pottsville, Pottstown,
tomato, tomato, whatever.
So I drove into Pottstown
 and I looked around
and I said, this is perfect.
You know, still looked
 a little bit
like it might have
 looked in the 30s.
And then I started doing
 research and I said,
I'll set it here right down 
the road from Pennhurst.
And the rest just came
 from research
in my imagination
 seeing that
there was an old Jewish
 synagogue there.
There was a Baptist church still
 there, building still there.
Everything's different now.
And then I just called 
on the gods of imagination
to allow these characters
 to inhabit my brain.
And then they begin
 to take off,
and then you follow them
 once they get moving.
I remember when writers
 used to say this
when I was young, 
they'd say,
my characters 
are I'm following her.
And I go, yeah, right, buddy?
Yeah, yeah and I got a bridge
 I want to sell you too, sucker.
But it's true.
At a certain point, 
the characters start to take,
they start to move.
And in the case 
of this book,
when Moshe 
and Shauna,
when he fell in love 
with her and she began
to inhabit the pages, 
the other characters
from her life began
 to emerge.
Nate and Addie, the black
 couple, and of course, Dodo,
and then later on, monkey pants 
to the kid in the institution.
And I knew kids like 
Dodo and monkey pants.
I knew them.
I know what a kid with cerebral
 palsy looks and sounds like.
Cerebral palsy is interesting.
I don't know what
 they call it now,
but you know, 
you're talking to someone
with cerebral palsy
 and they sound like
they don't know what
 they're talking about,
they actually oftentimes are
 much smarter than you are.
I mean, people 
who are disabled
are differently abled
 in their fingernail.
They hold more 
experience and wisdom
sometimes than 
most of us.
>> Michel Martin: Why is that?
>> James McBride: Because
 they spend their life watching.
Being disabled is a little
 bit like being black.
where you know, 
you're like a witness
to your own lynching, 
where everyone gets to
make a speech 
about you but you.
So you're there
 in a wheelchair
and they're talking 
over your head.
And what she wants to
 go to but she doesn't like.
Meanwhile, in your mind, 
you're saying,
you have
 a bug in your nose,
that one and spits flying 
out of your mouth.
And they're telling me 
because you see it all.
And when you're working 
with kids, they let you know.
You know, I remember
 Joe Frazier
came to visit the camp one
 time, the heavyweight boxer.
And he went up to
 one of the kids
and they was like, hey, 
little Sonny, you know?
And this kid said to him, 
he looked up
and he said, I could kick
 your ass.
[laughter]
I mean, you can't make 
this kind of stuff up, right?
So when you -- if your job
is to find the humanity
 in people,
look to the differently abled.
That's why their parents
 have a special shine.
Of course and they
 have difficulty talking about
one of your ex-colleagues 
who writes for the post.
I forgot his last name.
He's the book reviewer. 
 I can't remember.
I met him.
>> Michel Martin: Ron Charles. 
 >> James McBride: Ron Charles.
And Elissa, Charles's daughter
and the struggles that
 he had to raise her.
And how and this guy, 
he's one of the heroes.
He's walking around here, 
him and his wife.
These are the people that
 are the heroes in my world.
And that's what gives me
 power in my writing.
Because, I mean,
 my heroes aren't
the congressmen, 
and, well, I mean,
soon to be president
 might be a hero.
I'm not going to lie now. 
I mean, but
[applause]
there's power in love.
There's power 
in mothers, especially.
And fathers, as you know.
But the power of 
mothers is great.
And so I grew up in 
that kind of thing,
kind of with the
 kind of mentality
and it's helped me
 in my life.
>> Michel Martin: For folks 
who haven't read the book yet,
the three of you 
here who have not.
it takes place in this town.
It's supposed to be
 in Pennsylvania,
in a town that does exist.
But it's maybe not that town
 where the black community
and the Jewish community
 are intertwined.
And it centers initially
 on this Jewish couple
who run a theater but
 then they rally along
with their black neighbors,
 to try to save this little boy
from being sent to
 this institution.
And then things 
happen from there.
And I will say, because I don't
 want to ruin the experience
for those of you who
 haven't read it yet
that it takes a sharp turn.
You start out and you're
 sitting on the metro
and you're laughing 
your head off.
And then some things happen
 and it takes a really
it takes a sharp turn 
that really makes you face a lot
of the things that disabled 
people have to deal with
that anybody who's living 
kind of on the margins
has to deal with and some --
I'm just going to
 leave it at that.
I'm just asking -- 
I'm kind of wondering whether
was that turn always there
and why did you feel
 it was necessary?
Do you all don't know 
what I'm talking about?
Those of you who have 
read the book.
I just don't want to ruin it for
 people who haven't read it yet.
It's bracing.
It's one of those things that
 kept me up in a good way,
Kept me up at night
 in a good way.
Like you ever finish 
a book and you think,
oh, I can't sleep now.
Like you ever finish 
a book and you think,
I'll go clean out the closet
 because I can't sleep now.
And it disturbed me in
 a very good way.
But I wanted to ask about that.
>> James McBride: In this world,
 anything is possible.
And you know, what happens
 is in fiction, you expect this.
You expect it to move 
in a direction.
It doesn't go that way. 
 It just sort of happens.
So once Moshe and Shauna
 got together,
I began to follow the story, 
knowing that Dodo
had to be introduced into
 their lives at some point.
And you're waiting 
for the moment to.
And as this narrative starts
 to spin out from your fingers,
you can't force the
 kid into place.
He's got to -- it has to be
 you're building a house.
And so as the house gets built
and as these things start
 to roll out,
you just simply have to go
 with what's there.
And you don't want to
 force things into place,
and you don't want to 
not let things happen
that are just supposed to be.
I mean my father died 
before I was born.
That wasn't an ideal thing, 
but it worked out.
If you're patient, you know 
and you believe in love,
everything will work out.
So the hard part is you 
have to believe in love.
If you really believe, it'll 
show in your work.
And if you don't, then it's
 called Pulp Fiction
which means that it's like 
eating a peppermint candy.
It tastes good, but if you
 eat too many, it's no good.
I ought 
to hand you a candy cane.
>> Michel Martin: I was
 going to say no.
So, is anything keeping 
you up at night now?
You've had such 
an incredible ride.
Is something keeping you
 up at night?
>> James McBride: Well, 
we have some issues
with the church developer
 that's keeping me up.
I feel like I put it this way.
One person can't change
 anything in this country,
in your community, 
one person.
It takes a community.
But our inability to talk
 to each other
within our communities
 is really destructive,
because it just causes 
a lot of fear.
And we all know 
what fear does.
Fear exploits us.
It allows the big boys 
and big companies
and everything to destroy
 neighborhoods completely.
So if anything keeps me up,
it's the idea that
 the harbingers of truth
and the people who are
 at the last line of defense,
which are librarians
 and teachers,
are brutally assaulted mostly
 by men and women
who don't know any better.
But then you know what
 helps me sleep at night
is that the wisdom 
of women is starting
to make its way
 into American life.
[applause]
And I'll make this point
 before we allow --
women keep secrets
 in their heart.
Women are much 
more sophisticated.
I learned this mostly from the
 black women in my church.
Because when I got divorced,
 I returned to the church.
And long story short, 
I saw how things go
in the black church, 
at least in my church.
And a lot of churches, 
women carry the whole thing.
They carry the whole 
thing and then they lay it
in a man's feet and say, 
tell us what to do.
They're carrying the
 whole thing now.
But the level of sophistication
 that's in a women,
a woman's heart, 
because their heart
is like a vault and they 
keep everything there
and they very
 rarely open it up.
But every once in a while,
they open that vault 
and let some wisdom out.
It just moves the world.
So we're excited to 
get some of that wisdom
into our national thinking.
And so that helps me
 sleep at night,
because I'm convinced
 that women
are going to be the force
 that moves us into the future.
>> Michel Martin: And with that,
 [applause]
come on up.
I think there's 
some microphones.
I see one there. 
I see one there.
Come on up and join us, visit.
Okay, come on up.
Go ahead. Let's start.
>> Hi. I'm very happy 
to be here today
and just excited that 
I can listen to you
and know a little bit
 behind the book.
So I just finished reading
 Heaven and Earth Grocery Store,
and I thought, 
what a fabulous book.
Had so many themes to it. 
 It was just the theme of love.
Moesha's love for Shawna
 and her love for the community.
I mean, she did
 not want to move.
She loved her community.
So love is one of
 the prevailing things
in that book and I thought
 it was so well written.
All the characters were 
so well developed.
It was just I didn't 
want it to end.
And that's how I know 
it's a good book.
When I don't want
 a book to end.
It's like, okay, I need more.
>> Michel Martin: Did you
 have a question
you wanted to ask? 
You just wanted to holler.
No, it's fine. 
No, it's fine. You're adults.
You don't have 
to ask a fake question
just because 
you want to holler.
It's fine.
But because I have a 
question on top of that,
If you want to, 
which is so go ahead.
>> So it has a Jewish
 and the black
and that's your heritage. 
 Your mom is Jewish.
And so how did --
was it part of your mom
 in your life that made you
go in that direction as well?
>> James McBride: Well, 
I mean, to some degree,
I mean, she grew up in a small
 town in Virginia grocery store.
It was in the black
 section of town.
And that really was a --
that was a big part of
 American life
in the 30s and 40s on
 in black sections.
A white person, 
not always Jewish,
but oftentimes Jewish, 
who had a store
in the black section of town,
who knew their 
community, who knew --
everyone, knew everyone.
it's like today we always 
read about what goes wrong.
We never read about
 what goes right.
And in all the travels
 I've done
for the Heaven and Earth 
Grocery Store, it's been a lot.
I meet a lot of people
 who tell me
my community was
 like that too.
I met a lady in Detroit who
 told me all about her store,
and she said when her 
father closed the store,
she said it was awful
 for all of us.
Louis Armstrong talks
 about that
when he grew up in New Orleans
 and how kind --
I think there's 
a misperception about --
And I know for the 
three Jewish people here,
they're not going to -- 
this is going to be tough.
But Judaism, I studied it
 a little bit, not a lot,
but a little bit enough
 to know that
one of the great 
principles of Judaism
is not unlike that of 
Christianity or the Koran,
which is that you're 
supposed to give.
It's ironic that Jews are
 stereotyped as cheap,
when in fact Judaism is
 really based on --
again, now, every Jewish person
 is an expert on Judaism.
So if you're going to come
 get your book signed,
please don't bother
 me with this.
Judaism is about giving, 
and I've experienced that
the majority of my life
 in New York.
For those of us who grew
 up in New York,
we had Jewish teachers,
 we had Jewish bus drivers.
Jewish people are not
 perfect by no means.
But the stereotypes that
 we lay on communities
is destructive for all of us.
It's like saying when you say
urban centers, they're gorillas.
You know, they're destruction.
What they're really saying is
 black people are dadadada.
I feel safer walking around
 the projects in Red hook.
Hand to God, I feel safer
 walking around
the projects in Red hook than 
I feel driving in Pennsylvania
because I'm scared 
in Pennsylvania.
In Red hook, if you
 say hello, that's it.
All you got to do is
 say good morning.
So these stereotypes
 we have in answer
to your question about 
each other are destructive,
and they go on for generations 
and generations and generations.
That's why we read books, 
because we want to
look to the deeper story.
So yes, that's
 part of my history,
but it's part of everyone's 
history as well.
>> Thank you, sir.
>> I would just say wow, 
that's my shout out.
And it's really 
watching this story,
this amazing conversation
being transformed through
 our interpreter here.
And I'm imagining someone, 
yes, give it up for them.
It's very important, absolutely.
We're talking about 
diversity and coming together.
And then someone 
getting into those stories,
reading your book with
 their hands in Braille.
Okay, now we're talking 
about neurodiversity.
How about someone 
who's a visual learner?
How might they engage your
 stories as a graphic novel?
Would that cheapen it 
or would that elevate it?
>> James McBride: I don't know. 
I mean you know.
This is what happens
 when someone
who's smarter than 
you ask a question.
I mean, they just have to --
they have to hear
 and imagine, you know?
I mean, people who
 are sight disabled.
Was it sight disabled 
or was the hearing disabled?
I can't remember.
>> Michel Martin: Well, 
I would say sight
if you're talking about graphic.
>> James McBride: If the
 words don't lift off the page,
then I failed my job.
The hope is that the words 
will allow them to imagine
the tundra, the 
landscape before them.
>> Michel Martin: Ma'am?
>> Hello.
First, I want to say thank you
 so much for being here.
I'm so excited to see you.
I was assigned to read 
Color of Water when I was 13
and a freshman in high school.
It's been many years since then,
but it was definitely
 life changing.
My question, I guess,
 is more of a writerly one.
I'm a year out of my MFA,
 and of course
I've had to do a lot of 
recalibrating about that
and engaging in my work.
But it's already been 
addressed that you wrote
your memoir before fiction,
and so often we're told, 
write what you know,
which is kind of vague, I don't 
know, instruction or advice.
But with how your fiction 
has been so different,
I wonder if writing what
 you know,
if, like, writing that 
memoir was something
you needed to do to, 
like, know yourself
in order to, like, open 
yourself to these
very different characters
 in each of your novels
that came after 
a short story.
>> James McBride: That's a
 very good question.
And that's a very thoughtful
 problem that you're raising.
I think that they --
look, write what you can.
You can write what you know, 
but if you don't know a lot,
then the question is,
how do you get some stuff
 on your odometer?
And so then when
 I was 35 or 36,
when the Color of Water
 was completed, I think,
I had already done 
a lot of traveling
as a journalist and
 as a musician.
I had a lot of experiences
 to call on,
so I was ready at that time
 to write that book.
So if you're straight out 
of school with an MFA,
my suggestion would be
 to just live
as much as you can and
 keep a good journal.
And at some point, you'll
 decide that I'm ready
to do a memoir, or you'll
 say this fiction thing
has been just itching
 at me,
and I'll do it and do that, 
but it'll show.
In my case, the memoir was I 
needed to kind of deal with that
before I pushed into fiction.
I had to figure out who I was,
and I couldn't figure
 out who I was
until I figured out 
who my mother was.
But in your case, 
it might be different.
I just met a memoirist 
who I mean,
the young lady backstage
 who teaches
at Johns Hopkins 
who just wrote a memoir,
an African American.
She's an African
 American historian,
but she's written history
 books previous.
So Everyone's different, 
but I hope that's helpful.
Thank you.
>> Hello.
My question is, how involved
 are you in the audiobooks?
>> James McBride: Not at all.
>> Okay, thank you.
>> James McBride: There's
 a guy named Dominic.
I forgot his last name, 
but he does such
a good job that I just
 usually say to them.
Can you get him?
>> They're fantastic.
So Thank you.
>> All right. Thank you. 
>> We're going to try to get
to everybody 
who's in line presently,
but we're not going 
to be able to take
any more questions
 after that.
So thank you.
I should have turned
 to the question sooner.
I should have realized that,
 like I say,
we normally do our work
 when we don't see eyes.
So, sorry for that, 
but please.
>> Good morning.
First and foremost, 
a little bit of an accolade.
I also read 
The Color of Water,
and it's a book that
 I return to every so often.
And at the risk of sounding 
a little bit too fangirl,
it really did level up 
my writing, so thank you.
but on to the question.
So as we all know, 
you got your start in memoir,
but your memoirs, 
as well as your nonfiction,
they're sourced from 
a collection of voices.
I found that in memoirs, 
the author might grapple
with the plight of
 the reliable narrator,
or putting forth the
 most distilled narrative
for the reader 
to really interpret.
How have you navigated that both
 pre and post Color of Water?
>> James McBride: Well, 
that's a good question.
I mean, with memoir, 
you have to be careful
that you don't pull 
out your pistol
and just slay the room
 because someone
you didn't like or your
 cousin stole your homework
or she had a teacher move,
you had your
 girlfriend left you,
and now look at me now.
So those are the things
 that you have to avoid
when you're writing memoir.
Because when you write
 those kinds of memoirs,
you're not writing memoirs.
You're just writing 
vendettas, saying,
you know how you
 like me now.
>> Michel Martin: Or you could
 run for president and do that.
>> James McBride: Yeah, 
you could run for president.
Yeah, you could do that.
But you know, what kind of 
president would you be
and what kind of memoir
 would you write?
So you have to write 
a book that you --
listen generally, you when 
 writing about person,
if you can't be in the same
 room and read that
with that person sitting
 in that room,
you probably shouldn't
 write it.
That's really the rule
 that I kind of go by.
>> Michel Martin: Here we go.
>> Hi.
What shifted for you to
 be able to write consistently
and knowing what
 you know now,
what's the one thing
 you wish you knew
when you first started writing?
>> James McBride: What
 shifted for me
that made me
 write consistently?
[laughter]
Look, when you play 
enough wedding gigs
and somebody you could
 play Hava Nagila
in every key, and
 they come up to you
and you're playing 
something they dance
and they say, play
 something slow.
And if you've done
 enough of that
and you've done
 enough gigs
where you're in
 Rochester, New York,
and the guy was supposed
 to pay you vanishes,
and then there you are.
And then you stand
 over some guy's house
and he's in the bathtub, 
and you don't know
what he's doing
 in the bathtub.
And then when you
 walk in there,
he's laying in the
 bathtub with, like,
his clothes on and out.
You don't know
 if he's out because
he shot a needle in his arm
 and you don't have a car.
You say books ain't so bad.
[laughter]
So that's really -- 
that's the true answer
to your question there.
>> Michel Martin: Is that
 true really?
I really, I kind of believe you.
>> James McBride: When
 I was on the road,
I mean I never really
 had I mean,
I wrote songs for Anita Baker
 and Grover Washington.
I had some --I had
 some minor hits.
But I toured with
 Jimmy Scott.
We used to play here at
 it was a place in DC,
a cool I forgot the name
 of the club.
It was a blues alley, yeah.
I mean, you just can't
 make enough money.
You know, you have to work so
hard to be a traveling musician.
And if you're a songwriter
 you go in,
you see people who are 
19, 20 years old,
and you walk in there and
they're telling you what's good,
or they're offering you
 money for your songs.
And I've never done a
 publishing deal in music.
All my music is unpublished.
In other words, I just refuse
to give my songs
 over for a little.
So I just I make money
 writing books.
That’s it
>> Michel Martin: Here we go.
>> James McBride: 
We have one minute to go.
>> Michel Martin: Yeah, yeah.
 We're good.
>> You talked about 
your creativity challenges
that you always like
 to look for the next thing.
Will you have this very
 rare combination
of being a gifted musician
and an especially gifted writer.
Have you ever thought
 of combining the two
and coming out with
 a book that includes
the music and or songs in 
an audio visual format?
>> James McBride: Well, 
I wrote a musical 30 years ago.
I won the Stephen
 Sondheim Award.
Me and a guy named
 Ed Shockley.
But I saw I had
 no future on Broadway.
You know, it wasn't --
but I just went back to
 it and working on it.
Now it's called Bobos.
It's about a kid who wants a
 pair of expensive tennis shoes.
But the problem with 
Bobos is not the musical.
The musical is good.
It's sung all the way through.
It's got all these different 
styles of music.
The problem is that if 
you create a Broadway show,
do the kids that come
 to my church
in Red hook, will 
they ever see it?
They won't.
So I'm writing it 
really for high schools,
And we're introduce it so 
the high school teachers
can take the track
 and let kids
just do the musical
 in high schools.
Because Broadway is 
not accessible to poor people,
it's not accessible to the
 community that produced me.
So why create something 
for Broadway when there is no --
When the closest they'll 
come to it is to see it
is to some like nonprofit 
group will take 20 of them
to Broadway and they'll say, 
we've seen a Broadway show.
What's so great about Broadway 
that they can't do it --
that it belongs with the people
 that created it.
So when I first wrote Bobos,
and I suppose we'll end here,
 when I first wrote Bobos,
I remember going to
 theaters with a guy
who was playing there, 
playing the kits
and the drums 
the garbage can tops.
And that's all --
that's in the musical.
People in the theater 
there watching that,
and then they go inside
 and see Newsies.
So how are you going
 to present Newsies
to a kid from southeast D.C?
who they can't relate
 to it, you know?
So the long and short 
of it is, I've tried to do it,
but I've never been 
a guy who goes out
and gets grants and
 all that kind of stuff.
And when Bobos
 gets produced,
gets produced because 
I earned the money to do it.
And I can do it 
the way I want,
as opposed to some
 producer saying,
well I've done ten of 
these Disney, who cares?
You know, you have
 to do you have to --
Everything I've done 
is because I created it.
All the movie, everything.
I don't have an agent.
I have a literary agent
 and that's it.
You know, I was 
with CAS for a while,
and they didn't do anything
 for me, so I just quit.
>> So I know you said
 against YouTube,
but what about putting
 it on YouTube,
which the kids do watch?
>> James McBride: Again,
 you're talking about
the ability to put 
that together
means you got to call
 50 people, blah. blah, blah.
Just give it to high 
school music teachers.
They'll know what
 to do with it.
High school drama teachers 
know what to do with good stuff.
It's all about that.
>> Michel Martin: I'm sorry. 
We're going to --
I'm so sorry, ladies,
 but I'm going to
let this lady who's been 
very patient have the last word,
and we're going to have 
a last word, I apologize.
>> Thank you, I love you.
Your characters remind --
 I grew up in Harlem.
Your characters remind
 me a lot
of the people that
 I grew up with.
And I just want to say 
this is your best book.
I thought I knew everything
 about James Brown
and black history.
No, I read this book and
 I fell in love with it.
So I want to ask you, 
can you do the same thing
that you did for history and
James Brown for Josephine Baker?
>> James McBride: Well, I'm --
No I mean, I don't know
 if I'm at that point.
>> Michel Martin: Or 
somebody else.
>> James McBride: Well, 
I mean, you mean
Vice President Kamala Harris?
>> Can you do that?
>> James McBride: There
 are many more talented people
to do that.
No, look, I just 
do what's there.
They asked me to do
 the James Brown book.
>> This is great. This 
is beautiful.
This is wonderful.
It's my favorite.
>> Michel Martin: Thank you.
So why
 don't you bring us home
with you have a final 
thought or something?
>> James McBride: My final 
thought is that
I'm so glad that you all
 had nothing else
to do to come out and
 come out here today.
I appreciate you, and you know,
 love is the greatest.
It's the greatest
 novel ever written.
>> Michel Martin: Okay.
>> James McBride: That's it.
>> Michel Martin: Thank you,
 James McBride.